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Thread: Why PvP damage is fine how it is
psikobunny
Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:28 am
#92
Yup, totally fair, since you're defining the fight as beginning when the bolts begin to fly. It's not. Fight begins when you see your foe. Now, if you didnt see the Awing until he was playing loop the dupe, that's your fault, not the game. Good spatial awareness gives you plenty of time to avoid, line up on, and bring your superior firepower to bear on the Awing.
It's a cinch that even if you didn't see the Awing, he saw you, and for him the fight was probably about 15-seconds long. It's all relative.
Ducimus
Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:37 am
#93
It.. lives.....
Wish this thread just stayed buried, im tried of debating this topic
(havent really discussed it since)
But ya, spacial awareness is the individual persons responsiblity, not the games. I patrol various sectors in space overt on a regular basis. From what ive seen, 50% of the people out there seem to forget two things:
1.) Your PVP enabled
2.) Someone WILL be hunting you down.
People get too comfortable in their FP grinding, and they get caught napping. Heck, ill admit it, sometimes when FP grinding, i stop looking occassionally too - but then i know it's my own damn fault if i get vaped.
Im done citing reasons why PvP damage shouldn't be reduced to the great lengths people seem to think, and i honestly beleive if these people would get into some prolonged dogfights they'd see why. But peoples minds are set, and theres not much anyone can say or do that will convince them otherwise. Seriously though, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
Wish this thread just stayed buried, im tried of debating this topic
(havent really discussed it since)But ya, spacial awareness is the individual persons responsiblity, not the games. I patrol various sectors in space overt on a regular basis. From what ive seen, 50% of the people out there seem to forget two things:
1.) Your PVP enabled
2.) Someone WILL be hunting you down.
People get too comfortable in their FP grinding, and they get caught napping. Heck, ill admit it, sometimes when FP grinding, i stop looking occassionally too - but then i know it's my own damn fault if i get vaped.
Im done citing reasons why PvP damage shouldn't be reduced to the great lengths people seem to think, and i honestly beleive if these people would get into some prolonged dogfights they'd see why. But peoples minds are set, and theres not much anyone can say or do that will convince them otherwise. Seriously though, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
Tumbler2002
Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:21 pm
#94
Sigh, wish they would fix WO3.
The devs have been making a lot of improvements to the game lately but not fixing wo3 in all this time is a pretty big issue.Game launched in Mid october if I remember correctly and issue still exists. The other wpn overload programs work, just fix the numbers on the third one for crying out loud.
Feels like the devs are more interested in adding new features than fixing existing issues... Wish they'd go back and forth, one week focus on bugs, next week focus on new features.
The devs have been making a lot of improvements to the game lately but not fixing wo3 in all this time is a pretty big issue.Game launched in Mid october if I remember correctly and issue still exists. The other wpn overload programs work, just fix the numbers on the third one for crying out loud.
Feels like the devs are more interested in adding new features than fixing existing issues... Wish they'd go back and forth, one week focus on bugs, next week focus on new features.
Washell
Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:31 pm
#95
Missing a couple of things in this thread.
Putting in agood cap and top it up with WCO3 and WO3 means you're regenerating the cap faster then your guns can empty it. Using CtSS in this situation shunts a full cap charge to your shields while your cap fills up just as fast as your droid gets ready. Fixing WO3 will mean that you no longer will be shunting full charges to your shields nor have a full cap when the droid is ready again. Heavy fighters, with more guns to power will suffer more from a fixedWO3 then their lighter brethren.
I've been trying to get some PvP done but finding opponents is very hard.4 battles so far, 2 won, 2 lost. Both times I've won they never saw me coming. 1 time I lost because I was stupid enough to fly head to head and 1 time I was sitting in the cockpit of a YT admiring the view while I should have been manning the turret. 
I would rather see PvP getting a further damage reduction with the possibility of endless fights between equal skilled pilots, but actually getting fights then the comments of learn to fly which keeps 1% of the players interested in PvP.
I do agree the current system is highly realistic comparedwith aerial combat as it really is
I'm currently working on getting all pilot badges and the matching helm for deco purposes. Once that's doneI'll be grinding loot in Deep Space to get all the reward items RE'd so I'll probably get some more PvP done 
S-1-l2-H-C
Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:31 pm
#96
yesterday during the starsider weekly space battle, there was one rebel pilo that flew with absolute perfection.
it was 25 rebels agianst 20 imerials; we quickly plowed through most of the rebel fleet taking minimal loses, but there was one little a-wing that refused to go down. It took 10-15 of us something like 10 minutes to finaly score 2 shots rapidly enough to disable the reactor. it was hard enough to get one hit in, but when we did she would have her shields back up to full before we could hit her agian.
she is hands down the best pilot ive ever seen in jtl, so this is by no means the norm for space pvp, but if the damage had been reduced farther we would have been there all night.
if more of them figure out how to get that kind of performace from their ships we are going to be in trouble.
it was 25 rebels agianst 20 imerials; we quickly plowed through most of the rebel fleet taking minimal loses, but there was one little a-wing that refused to go down. It took 10-15 of us something like 10 minutes to finaly score 2 shots rapidly enough to disable the reactor. it was hard enough to get one hit in, but when we did she would have her shields back up to full before we could hit her agian.
she is hands down the best pilot ive ever seen in jtl, so this is by no means the norm for space pvp, but if the damage had been reduced farther we would have been there all night.
if more of them figure out how to get that kind of performace from their ships we are going to be in trouble.
Thradd
Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:00 am
#97
Space PVP should be fast and deadly..just like "real" space combat. Of course good gear plays an important role but the two biggest factors in making you a good pilot are Skill and Awareness. If you keep an eye on your radar and don't let another player get the drop on you, then you can use your skill to out manuver and get the kill. And space PVP can last longer than 2 seconds. If you've got 2 really good pilots going up against each other then you've got a nice cat and mouse chase and dogfight.
Leave space PVP alone. If it gets "fixed" it's going to get broken and we all know it.
If you have a hard time with PVP in space...get a better engine, get a better gun, fly a smaller ship (bigger is NOT always better in PVP) , stay alert, learn to fly.
/salute
Tumbler2002
Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:09 am
#98
Heavy fighters, with more guns to power will suffer more from a fixed WO3 then their lighter brethren.
Heavy fighters in pvp aren't as dependent on WO3 for success as they have multiple gun slots and the mass to mount Extremely powerful weaponry. Plus they can probably run WO1 or 2 and be more than a match for the average light fighter.
Space PVP should be fast and deadly..
It needs to be fun first, then it can be fast and deadly imo. There should be something that lets players know that other players ARE in the area. We'll get more players if the radar showed enemy players in Orange or some other color so that players understand the danger approaching. An NPC ship shoots you and you take 5% shield damage, player ship shoots you and you're probably going to explode. Radar shows these 2 targets exactly the same. Red Dots. For someone new to the master level and deep space if his experience of being there is boom and he's dead he's likely not to going to come back. There isn't much reason to make that battle ground so difficult to survive in, it's already hard enough to survive a pvp attack without making it almost impossible to see one coming.
Tumbler2002
Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:43 am
#99
I PVP in space ALL THE TIME. I am overt and hunting. I am in space 99% of the time I play. I have been in countless dogfights. I've won some I've lost some. If you play enough you will learn to be alert. You will actually learn to recognize a player dot on your radar and move to avoid or intercept. So there really isn't a need for some kind of player warning if you just use what you've got and stay on top of the situation. If you can't do that then I'm sorry to say that maybe you shouldn't fly.
Well I don't have the same view on this issue you do. I for one would like the system to encourage more players to participate and I think that will happen if they make it harder to sneak up on another player. I don't see how making players "Learn to recognize a player dot on your radar" adds anything to this game. Making player dots orange helps players learn to recognize other players on radar and it doesn't involve constantly tapping another key. If you wanted to be real hardcore, why map the key at all. Why not just use the target closest enemy and cycle through all targets in the area and hope you see that player before he jumps you.
OddjobXL
Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:55 pm
#100
I may be jumping into this thread a bit late and haven't had time to review the particulars. Here's a bit about my opinion and experience with JtL and PvP.
I was thrilled to get my hands on this. Loved the flight/space sim elements (you can't imagine how delighted I was to find a padlock view and a rendered cockpit - that's immersion!) and entering my yacht on day one blew me away completely. Suddenly my decision not to quit SWG was seeming very foresighted rather than bullheaded and obstinate.
Never had been a fan of PvP groundside so I was wary of it in space. Groundsider PvP seemed to be entirely the province of catassers and bore no resemblence to Star Wars in any sense. Well, in space nobody can hear you l33t speak. And my impression of this being simlike andskill orientedmade me a bit more inclined to give it a go. I was a simmer and a pretty good one in the past. So I jumped in, mostly skirmishes and I'd get killed but I'd get my kills in. When folks like Naithan and Gwreng and Ramona started organizing events I was all over it. Loved the RPed in-game briefings, the realistic flight chatter and spirited RPed banter over comms in groupand the excitement of going up against a real live foe. And, once again, I'd get killed but I'd also get my kills.
Still the very long times it took to organize the events, and the extremely quick nature of the fights themselves (along with the damage to my expensive ships), started to wear on my patience a bit. The next-to-last straw was probably the combined space-ground event that Axis screwed up. Hours of sitting around, organizing, and waiting - then it's cancelled because some PvP boneheads decided to screw with overt roleplayers on the ground.
And then, more recently, I went along for an evenly matched battle against the opposition and *boom* no sooner had I spotted them in the distance, it seemed, than something hit me and blew up my ship before I had time to do more than report them on comms. About 15 seconds later the rest of the flight is sitting around waiting for repairs at the spacestation. I was about to quit then and there, what's the point of fighting these guys right, but I decided that wouldn't be sportsmanlike and stuck it out. Now a solo hostile zooms in and lays waste to the entire flight. He didn't even seem worried about shooting at us as he was maneuvering so fast that nobody could even get a bead on him. When I finally did tag him he blew me, and then everyone else, into little bits singlehanded.
I'm a Master Pilot in a decent ship. I'm an experienced flight simmer. Am I to believe that skill matters more in JtL than RE'd/looted gear -as it is-?
Now my suggestion if folks want more participation in space borne PvP is for there to be requisitionable 'standard' factional ships available for Faction Points. To go overt you need to buy one of these ships, already outfitted, and launch it from a terminal at a spaceport. They'll have completely standard configurations including standard computer programs. The only real advantages pilots will have from the code, as opposed to one's personal skill, will be piloting special abilities. If you've got 'em, you can use 'em.
The advantages to only allowing special, standardized, ships for PvP in space is twofold. It returns the game to a contest of skill using iconic vessels. It avoids damage to valuable ships that folks might want to preserve for PvE.
That's my suggestion for getting things to where they should be.
xTekx
Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:41 pm
#101
Oddjob, now you bring up an intresting suggestion. But one I must disagree with. By making it where only overts can only fly designated faction ships you take away from the variety you can have in space pvp. Yes, alot of people pvp with Awings and Advances. I'm not one of them. I still use my xwing. One of the neat things JTL offers is the ability to customize your ship to the way you want it. You can have low firepower but awesome Armor/shields. Many possibilities. Now take me for example. I happened to get my reward engine before it was nerfed. So I've got the 92 speed lvl 6 engine. I spent a long time trying to find just the right lvl 6 engines to RE it with. I got a great lvl 8 weapon and spent a lot of time looking for the right stats for that. Same with my shields. I don't run a booster. Part of the pvp game is flying against someone's ship. Yes you have to fly against the player. But that player made his ship. He set it up how he wanted it. You didn't see the falcon not being able to fight in the movies cause it was different and heavily modified did you? Yes MP ships need to be beefed up to with stand up to 10-15 hits. But I don't like the idea of forcing people to use "special ships" to try and balance out pvp. If I put in the time to make my ship the best it can be then I want to use it. I dont' want to use it only for pve. I set it up for pvp.
Just my 2 cents and opinion.
psikobunny
Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:18 pm
#102
See here's my thing about making PvP more "new player" friendly. There already is a Shallow End of the pool for them, and it's called /duel. I know a lot of infantile people float near stations and /duel any rookie ship they see, but really, if someone wants to learn PvP they should load up Flashlights into their ship, find a friend go out to a small corner of space, and practice. The fight begins and ends when they want it to, and its a controlled situation where they can learn how fast youwill die with real gear.
If someone fresh out of swim class jumps right in the deep end, he deserves to get a little bit of water in his lungs and come up spluttering. Modifying the UI isn't a bad idea I would like a way to differentiate myself, and the UI is pig awful in some ways anyway. But softening the game isn't the way.
Mandash- no disrespect intended, because I've met you, and I like you, and I hope to fly with you someday. I am just curious about your example. How exactly did you let this guy get the drop on you? I mean, if your flight had never fought together before and it was a thrown together thing, I guess that's understandable, but there are tactical choices to make so that no matter who the guy goes after, someone else can be ready to lay down cover. Just curious as to the tactics of your flight group, and why this guy had such an easy time of it.
OddjobXL
Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:54 pm
#103
Given the discrepency in gear that's out thereincluding folks holding onto old uberitems you can't even find anymore, for example, I'm not sure that "getting the drop" on me is an issue. Yes, our unit was scratch and hadn't worked before togetherand there was no tactical preparation. We were flying straight at them. No surprise at all on anyone's part. Part of the problem is that my hands were typing a warning rather than flying my ship - but the fact that one hit means you're space dust (and this isn't the only time this has happened - it seems par for the course in recent weeks) tends to take my incentive out of showing up at all. I still go overt to hunt Imperial NPCs and I'll engage hostiles I encounter when doing so. I don't expect to win unless I completely surprise my opponent usually. Uberengines, ubershields, uberweapons. That's great. But I'll leave most of the heavy fighting to my friends who've got the same stuff. If that's what the goal is here, that's fine. I'm just suggesting a way to increase participation assuming that's a goal and a reason for discussing issues like damage. I suspect it's the reason you see serious issues with DOT and legendary weapons in ground PvP - folks don't want to have to grind endlessly to be contenders. Who can blame them? But it does lower the pool of participants.
Or, to put it another way, if the TIE pilots had a choice about whether to go up against The Millenium Falcon knowing their odds - you think they would?
xTekx
Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:22 am
#104
on the subject of uber engines, etc. last week I went up against a guy in DS. I ended up getting my ego get put back in check 3 times by this guy. after talking to him he was not using an uber engine. in fact it really made me upset at myselfbecause of what he was using. It really shows his skill as a pilot. He was flying an oppressor and was using a player made engine with a 103 speed and 50 or 51 pyr. Now that is flying plane and simple. I have over 70 pyr on my lvl 6 andwas just slapped down like a fly. Items had no part in it what so ever because he knew how to fly. I got school and accepted it. Because of that night i've turned down my ego a bit, since i hadn't been killed by an overt in a while.