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Tumbler2002 wrote:

High speed and maneuverability should equal low damage and low shields.

Low speed and manueverability should equal high damage and high shields.

That's not how it is currently, now it's rather:

High speed, high maneuverability, high damage, low shields.

Low speed, low maneuverability, high damage, low shields.

Wow that is a perfect synapsis of the problem. The most manueverable ships are doing too much damage.
Can someone argue against this point? And explain why dropping the pvp damage would mess things up?

If an A-wing Attacks a Tie Interceptor. How many shots should it take to kill?
And if the Same a-wing attacks a Tie Oppressor how many shots should it take to kill?

(Assume this is a surprise attack and there is no manuevering.)

Message Edited by Tumbler2002 on 02-08-2005 10:16 AM

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Your gonna have a hard time implenting that without totally rewrite of how ships AND parts work JTL. You will in essence, probably have to rewrite the mechanics of JTL from ground up.

Personnlay, having nothign better to do with my money, i mastered shipwright, and it opened a whole new avenue of how many ways i can rig my ship. Re Engineering, the tinkering with parts as it is right now is very robust. My T/A is packing a 3600 damage blaster, and a 3000 damage blaster. I have my choice of 68 YPR, 77, 80, 92, and 95 speed engines. Haven't even touched the shields yet (1300), but im working on that, sooner or later ill squeeze in 1800 shields or higher.

Message Edited by Ducimus on 02-08-2005 10:24 AM

>>That says more about your skills, than it does actual chassis differences.

Chassis only differ in two primary respects. (im ignoring mass because it's not as much of a handicap if you know what your doing)
1.)YPR Turn Rating
2.)Profile -small profile vs large profile


Skill is only part of it, the other important part where PvP is concerned, more important than most people seem to realize, is your choice of engine.

Message Edited by Ducimus on 02-08-2005 10:33 AM

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Ducimus wrote:

Skill is only part of it, the other important part where PvP is concerned, more important than most people seem to realize, is your choice of engine.

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Going fast never hurt anyone.

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SwordNMace wrote:

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Ducimus wrote:

Skill is only part of it, the other important part where PvP is concerned, more important than most people seem to realize, is your choice of engine.

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Going fast never hurt anyone.

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I can prove to you it does.

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Ducimus wrote:

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SwordNMace wrote:

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Ducimus wrote:

Skill is only part of it, the other important part where PvP is concerned, more important than most people seem to realize, is your choice of engine.

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Going fast never hurt anyone.

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I can prove to you it does.

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Let me clarify that, then. Going fast in space pvp never hurt anyone. All three of my pvp losses came when I was going too slow.

Heh, ok

Since you all probably think im just some k3wl d00d3 who's full of excrement, and you probably wont beleive me anyway, i'll spill the beans on this, just this once, because it will just get lost in this thread anyway, so hardly anyone will read it. Reason i mention it at all is because, to me this exemplifies how much people ASSUME in this community.


Welcome to Rapax's advanced flight school, 102.
Lets talk about turns. More specfically turns in aerial combat, or Basic Fighter Manuevers. This applies to a dogfight already underway.

A turn consists of two things:

Turn radius
If you were to fly your ship in a geometic circle, (aka the "turn circle") the radius is the center of this circle to the edge of the circle. Turn radius is the YPR value on your engine.

Turn Rate:
How fast you can travel above mentioned turn radius or "turn circle". This is dictated by your ships chassis, and is a static number you cannot change through Re engineering.

Cornering speed.
This is the speed at which you have the fastest turn rate, with the tightest turn radius. In this community its known by many names, but i think you know what im mean here.

With me so far?

Now generally speaking the more velocity you have, the greater in size your turn circle.
The act of a turn itself, is comprised of two general planes of motion. Foward acceleration, and Yaw and/or Pitch.

Still with me?

Lets now take two standard PvP class ships, im my example im going to use a Tie Advanced.
In each ship we are goign to equip them with different engines, same YPR, but difference top speeds, therego, their foward velocity will vary, as will their cornering speed.

Ship Alpha: has a top speed of 1000 with EO3.
Ship Bravo: has a top speed of 1200 with EO3.

Now to obtain your cornering speed in a T/A, you are generally at 90% throttle.
Alpha 1000 * 0.9 = 900 (Ship alpha at his cornering speed in a dogfight is about 900 speed)
Bravo 1200 * 0.9 = 1080 (ship brava at his cornering speed in a dogfight is about 1080 speed)

Now, i will say it again, the more velocity you have, the greater in size your turn circle.
As i already stated, a Turn is comprised of foward acceleration, and yaw and/or pitch.

So lets examine this for a minute. You have foward accerleration and a yaw or pitch. Now granted the space you use in your foward acceleration in a turn isnt anything huge, as if you were traveling in a straight line, but you are infact moving foward to a minor degree.

A speed of 900 will consume less foward travel, then a speed of 1080. If your traveling at 1080 speed, you will be moving foward by a few degrees more by virtue of your faster velocity. Both ships can complete their turn in the same amount of time and have the same turn rating speed, but one turn circle is LARGER THAN THE OTHER!

Try to picture the two circles the two ships make in your minds eye on a piece of grafting paper. 1080 goes foward faster, there go eats more space in its foward momentum. 900 doesnt go foward as fast therego ueses less space then 1080. If you were to draw both of these circles on paper, one would be INSIDE THE OTHER.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

Avoidence and interception are the handicaps. Slightly slower is a good thing, really slow is a bad thing, its all about balancing yourself to your opposition. WHich is pretty easy because everyone assumes the prenerf engine is uber PvP material and they assume speed is the essense of life (which is generally true, but not *always* true)

Message Edited by Ducimus on 02-08-2005 11:35 AM

Ducimus, I'm in no way discounting the importance of a craft's agility. I myself swear by the Dunelizard because of it's handling capabilities. Trust me. I've flown the Krayt and the Kimogila and I'll never go back to them.

To me it seems that the maneuverability of a craft is more of a defensive aspect whereas speed is more offensive. Since I tend to find myself on the offensive in almost every pvp encounter, I favor raw speed.

Your gonna have a hard time implenting that without totally rewrite of how ships AND parts work JTL. You will in essence, probably have to rewrite the mechanics of JTL from ground up.

Personnlay, having nothign better to do with my money, i mastered shipwright, and it opened a whole new avenue of how many ways i can rig my ship. Re Engineering, the tinkering with parts as it is right now is very robust. My T/A is packing a 3600 damage blaster, and a 3000 damage blaster. I have my choice of 68 YPR, 77, 80, 92, and 95 speed engines. Haven't even touched the shields yet (1300), but im working on that, sooner or later ill squeeze in 1800 shields or higher.

A revamp is definitely needed for the long term but I am opposed to doing that now.

First thing is fix the droid commands. Weapon Overload 3 may actually be were most of the problems stem.

Once that is fixed, assuming the light fighters still own larger ships in 2-3 shots, we can discuss what to do.

..and you'll probably be flying circles around your opponent who might be flying a lead pursuit on you. (typical A wing fight for me)

I dont expect you to beleive me. Infact i don't want you to

The hardest part of any PvP fight is the intial engagement. If your opponent knows your there, it wont matter how fast you are *IF* he wants to fight you, the gap closes FAST regardless of individual speeds. During these few fleeting seconds you have to make the decision to try and evade or try and get the first shot in down the throat, likewise he'll be doing ths same. Almost like russian roulette. Thats half the fight, right there (i hate this part honestly ) Once your engaged however.....

Personally i don't look at speed or manuverablity as neither offensive or defensive. They aren't mutally exclusive. Theres offense/defense application for both. All out, balls to the wall speed i think makes the largest difference is when someone doesn't want to fight for whatever reason, or is situationally unaware.

At any rate, ive spoken entirely too much and shall refrain from any further discussion on this particular subtopic of this subject. And ya know, i could quite possibly be talking so far out of me arse as to be wiping my rear with my tonsils, so, meh, forget i said anything at all.

I agree that pvping in SWG isnt much of dog fighting. it take sabout 2-5 minutes to load your droid. Then you meet up with the rest of your group which takes another 2-5 minuets foreveryone to finish loading their droid. Then you launch into DS or go overt and hyper to your pvp location...anotehr 2-5 minutes. Then finally youre ready for battle. Youre crusin at around 500 with yoru squad, looking for your imps or rebs. Spaming the Z key....waiting. Then you spot your first target and guess what? you see 2 missiles flying at you with lasers and yorue dead in about 3 seconds. Not much of a dog fight is it? Mor elike whoever has the smallest profile ship and most dmg/vs guns wins. I know many tiems Ill loa dup a kimo go pvping, Ill fire first and make direct hits but I still die because the have lvl 10 .8 vs 4k+dmg . Now if everyone pvping all go tin teh same ship, used teh same ngiens, same sheilds, same weapons, same missiles. THEN that would maybe be a littl emroe fair. But I think that we should get sheilds as big as NPC's and NPC's should get guns that do as much dmg as ours. AKA make npcs be has easy/hard as players. Thats just what i think, my oppinion.

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entrailsgalore2 wrote:
I agree that pvping in SWG isnt much of dog fighting. it take sabout 2-5 minutes to load your droid. Then you meet up with the rest of your group which takes another 2-5 minuets foreveryone to finish loading their droid. Then you launch into DS or go overt and hyper to your pvp location...anotehr 2-5 minutes. Then finally youre ready for battle. Youre crusin at around 500 with yoru squad, looking for your imps or rebs. Spaming the Z key....waiting. Then you spot your first target and guess what? you see 2 missiles flying at you with lasers and yorue dead in about 3 seconds. Not much of a dog fight is it? Mor elike whoever has the smallest profile ship and most dmg/vs guns wins. I know many tiems Ill loa dup a kimo go pvping, Ill fire first and make direct hits but I still die because the have lvl 10 .8 vs 4k+dmg . Now if everyone pvping all go tin teh same ship, used teh same ngiens, same sheilds, same weapons, same missiles. THEN that would maybe be a littl emroe fair. But I think that we should get sheilds as big as NPC's and NPC's should get guns that do as much dmg as ours. AKA make npcs be has easy/hard as players. Thats just what i think, my oppinion.

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it is dogfighting.. on your commands. you must have a really slow DI or are using a lot of commands. personally i'm only using 3. I do have a 14speed DI to but 5 minutes for commands? never. try this. When you hit your first command, hyper somewhere. hit your next command, hyper to where you want to go, hit your next command. I don't know if this is a bug or a loop hole, but it works. and will save you time. I can get all my commands done in 1-2 minutes tops.

Missles in pvp right now is pretty lame just for the fact that there is no way to track a missle, or evade a missle. Unless you maybe have chaffs or countermeasures. But once someoen fires a missle it will hit whatever it was targeted to.

We shouldn't have to use the same ships, same weapons, shields, whatever. This type of game is in an MMO. To make everyone use the same thing would make it a different type of game. In this game you have to put in the time to make your ship what you want it to have. you can't just go up and expect to get the best engine, or whatnot. You have to go loot them, you have to find other components of hte same RE level to have them RE'd. You have to tweak your ship. Basically body work on your ship. Like working on your car. People will change out factory carbs for edelbrocks, or holly carbs to try and get more horsepower. They'll put in K&N filters to try and get better performance. You're basically doing the same thing on your ship. Its one of the aspects of JTL that I love.

And PvE should not be the same as PvP. PvP is the ultimate level. Nothing should equal it.

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entrailsgalore2 wrote:

Thats just what i think, my oppinion.

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My opinion is, /necropost bad....

i have a 9.8 speed. An a-wing with a lvl 9 gun can take out my 2600 frotn sheild, fly around me then take out my back withitn 2 seoncds...thats a god fight? I guess we have different definitions then.