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Thread: Concerning the Pro's of Forced PvP Mastership......
Well your right DWB is optional, the pvp zone is optional too, you can chose to go or not.
No, it's not optional. If people want full usage for their expansion, they will have to PvP. PvP has always been optional in SWG, with the expansion it is more or less mandatory. You can't really stay at 4-4-4-4 unless you want an expansion that isless uselfull than your average ball of pocket lint. Read what I wrote a few posts above this one.
Naquiel wrote:
Well your right DWB is optional, the pvp zone is optional too, you can chose to go or not.
There is a huge whooping difference. The DWB is completely optional. A skill box in the profession tree is really not optional. Oh, I fully expect some more "blah blah blah, stay at 4-4-4-4 if you haven't got the balls, blah, blah, blah" replies, but read what I wrote a few posts up about this first. Ok?
Still don't see a single justification in any posts yet.
Well your right DWB is optional, the pvp zone is optional too, you can chose to go or not.
Cuality wrote:
Gavin_Keel wrote:
Cuality wrote:
i'm a pvper, but i support the people who want this mission taken out... just so that we can get them to stop crying. Seriously, if you really feel you will have issues with the missions in the pvp zone, bring friends, bring lots of friends. 20 friends running cover for you sure will stop you from being "griefed"
I am 100% against being forced to PVP for masterbut I am most CERTAINLY not crying about it. Just the fact that you'd say something like that makes think you are one of the guys that will ENJOY killing people knowing it caused them to fail their mission. I hope you are not. People who do not like PVE are NOT crybabies, or wusses or anything like that. Please quit inferring that they are, it is insulting.
I am not afraid or scared of PVP in the least bit. But, when I am trying to complete a PVE mission (and very, very difficult ones at that) I don't want to worry about getting killed by another player. I ALSO do not want to have to worry about ruining another players PVE mission when I am trying to PVP. Bring 20 friends you say... hmm... Do you have ANY idea how hard it is for most people to get 20 people together, not to mention getting them all focused on the same objective. I honestly think large organized groups are about as hard to get going as getting a jetpack.
I also want to touch on something that I have commented on many times before but, always seems to fall on deaf ears. Those of you who argue that PVP in spaceis somehow much better and more equal of a playing field than on the ground because it is twitch based are just flat wrong.
First of all, thereare loot and equipment certs. Those with the best loot and equipment will have a gigantic advantage over everyone else, period. Remember, boys and girls, when you go into Kessel as a 4-4-4-4 pilot to attempt your master missions the Master PVPers there will be using equipment that is a full TWO certification levels above what you can use. NOT EQUAL. After loot you have a ton of other factors, such as computer speed (FPS), connection speed, (do you really think that the guy on 56k should be denied his multi-passenger master ship?) and so on. Once again, Space is going to be very very far from a level playing field.
What we have here is a system that forces players to finish tough objectives while fending of other players who will just flat be better than they are. Besides even if you are some kind of uber pilot with lots of skill all the other guys have to do is repair and come right back. If you leave your mission fails.
Absolutely nothing about this current system sounds fun to me in any way, either from a PVE standpoint OR a PVP standpoint. Honestly, the only people who could possibly like this system are people who enjoy ruining other peoples fun, and that my friends is the very definition of grief.
Message Edited by Gavin_Keel on 10-26-2004 10:59 PM
actually, it sounds like one big cry. You have various complaints and complaining is crying. you are moaning and complaining about it and you haven't even done it yet. all you know so far is: the master mission will take you into kessel. Kessel is pvp enabled. so people automatically assume that as soon as they cross into kessel, dozens of griefers will be parked at the zone edges waiting for you... its a huge zone there, there will be other targets...
so, yes. you cried. you don't want to be "forced" into a pvp situation (not like you guys already din't win over on the whole covert thing) so keep crying, they'll change it, they always bow to the wishes of the criers.
I have done it, I was in beta for a very long time. It sucked there and it will be worse in live. Please try not to talk about things you know nothing about, i.e. whetheror not I have tried something. In this case you were very wrong about it. I never cry, I just argue my opinion. I also don't get pissy and start calling people crybabies when their opinion differes from my own, call it maturity I guess.
I respect the opinions of those who want to PVP, and I am all for Dev's developing game mechanics that make that aspect of the game fun for the people who like it. I am very against forcing those mechanics on the people who don't want to. It seems pretty obvious to me that forcing people to PVP who don't want to not only ruins the game for those people but ALSO for the (non griefing) PVPers.
In the future try to listen and respect other people's opinions, even if you disagree. People might start mistaking you for a grown up.
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
If im running through the widerness and im shot or killed by a NPC, would i call that a grief by the game system? I dont think so. If im shot or killed by another player, would i call that griefing? No i would call it being stupid on my part for not looking around my surroundings and not being prepared.
Key difference: NPC's don't have a will of their own. They just do as they are programmed, they are predictable. Players do as they choose. They are unpredictable. Players actually CHOOSE to attack other players, NPC don't.
Last time i looked most of the NPC's had AI and acted differently, and yes most are predictable, but so are most pvp'ers.
Did you ever think that others grouped with you might be masters to helping and that the enemy might not all be masters also?
Sure. But that wasn't the issue here. The issue here was that there won't be an equal fight no matter what you do.
Good posibility there will be a dissadvantage, you might be in a group that will destroy them with no problem. (look from both sides and you will get a better picture of what is happening)
But thats the thing, being killed by a NPC or a player is the same, you dont know what will come after you especial in a pvp area where the NPC's and players will be very tuff so you still have to be prepared and be on the look out. You still have a radar and a choice to run like hell or stay and fight.
It's not the same, not at all. Get attacked by a player and you'll either have to win or die (or hyperspace away, but that will end your mission in this case). Get attacked by an NPC and you can just flee for a bit, or fight and win. Another difference: NPC's are dumb, they don't have much capacity of choices. Players CHOOSE which other players to attack, as per above.
I dont think running from NPC's in JTL will help, they have a timer to and if you run away and not finish the mission you will fail the mission(beta was fun finding all these things out) And some PVP players are not that much smarter ether, they tend to fly in repeditive patterns. Andjust like on the ground if your attacked by a npc you still have to choose to get away or fight.
I have played many online games where i had to go to a PVP area to get to master. It will all depend on who is with you and if there are many enemies around. Try team work and see if you can get through it as quick as possible. Or you can chose not to be a master and live with playing with what you got.
Good for you. I still don't see how this would justify these missions. The "many online games" !=SWG.
Give me ONE good justification for this sudden change of PvP/PvE policy. Give me ONE justification that people who hate something will have to do it to get the most out of the expansion they bought (unknowingly that the rules had changed)? Give me ONE justification for these missions making PVP even more shunned by non-PVPers?
Just give me ONE good reason, and I will shut up.
TEAM WORK, SOCIAL VALUES, GAINING FRIENDS.....Will this due.
Naquiel wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Last time i looked most of the NPC's had AI and acted differently, and yes most are predictable, but so are most pvp'ers.
Actually, JTL NPC's all pretty much act the same on a Tier to Tier basis.
I dont think running from NPC's in JTL will help, they have a timer to and if you run away and not finish the mission you will fail the mission(beta was fun finding all these things out) And some PVP players are not that much smarter ether, they tend to fly in repeditive patterns. Andjust like on the ground if your attacked by a npc you still have to choose to get away or fight.
Running from NPC's is a huge part of the Corvette mission. You or a mate will have to draw off the escorts before the Corvette is attacked. This is done by getting them to attack you, after which you outrun them and circle back on to the Corvette. Of course, with the "exploited" ships the devs gave the NPC's instead of better AI, this might not be possible anymore. (Meaning one of your mates must be "expendable")
TEAM WORK, SOCIAL VALUES, GAINING FRIENDS.....Will this due.
Nothing of the above justifies these missions. Hell, it doesn't even justify PVP at all. Teamwork, social values and gaining friends is as easy with PVE as with PVP. If not easier.
Gavin_Keel wrote:
Cuality wrote:
Gavin_Keel wrote:
Cuality wrote:
i'm a pvper, but i support the people who want this mission taken out... just so that we can get them to stop crying. Seriously, if you really feel you will have issues with the missions in the pvp zone, bring friends, bring lots of friends. 20 friends running cover for you sure will stop you from being "griefed"
I am 100% against being forced to PVP for masterbut I am most CERTAINLY not crying about it. Just the fact that you'd say something like that makes think you are one of the guys that will ENJOY killing people knowing it caused them to fail their mission. I hope you are not. People who do not like PVE are NOT crybabies, or wusses or anything like that. Please quit inferring that they are, it is insulting.
I am not afraid or scared of PVP in the least bit. But, when I am trying to complete a PVE mission (and very, very difficult ones at that) I don't want to worry about getting killed by another player. I ALSO do not want to have to worry about ruining another players PVE mission when I am trying to PVP. Bring 20 friends you say... hmm... Do you have ANY idea how hard it is for most people to get 20 people together, not to mention getting them all focused on the same objective. I honestly think large organized groups are about as hard to get going as getting a jetpack.
I also want to touch on something that I have commented on many times before but, always seems to fall on deaf ears. Those of you who argue that PVP in spaceis somehow much better and more equal of a playing field than on the ground because it is twitch based are just flat wrong.
First of all, thereare loot and equipment certs. Those with the best loot and equipment will have a gigantic advantage over everyone else, period. Remember, boys and girls, when you go into Kessel as a 4-4-4-4 pilot to attempt your master missions the Master PVPers there will be using equipment that is a full TWO certification levels above what you can use. NOT EQUAL. After loot you have a ton of other factors, such as computer speed (FPS), connection speed, (do you really think that the guy on 56k should be denied his multi-passenger master ship?) and so on. Once again, Space is going to be very very far from a level playing field.
What we have here is a system that forces players to finish tough objectives while fending of other players who will just flat be better than they are. Besides even if you are some kind of uber pilot with lots of skill all the other guys have to do is repair and come right back. If you leave your mission fails.
Absolutely nothing about this current system sounds fun to me in any way, either from a PVE standpoint OR a PVP standpoint. Honestly, the only people who could possibly like this system are people who enjoy ruining other peoples fun, and that my friends is the very definition of grief.
Message Edited by Gavin_Keel on 10-26-2004 10:59 PM
actually, it sounds like one big cry. You have various complaints and complaining is crying. you are moaning and complaining about it and you haven't even done it yet. all you know so far is: the master mission will take you into kessel. Kessel is pvp enabled. so people automatically assume that as soon as they cross into kessel, dozens of griefers will be parked at the zone edges waiting for you... its a huge zone there, there will be other targets...
so, yes. you cried. you don't want to be "forced" into a pvp situation (not like you guys already din't win over on the whole covert thing) so keep crying, they'll change it, they always bow to the wishes of the criers.
I have done it, I was in beta for a very long time. It sucked there and it will be worse in live. Please try not to talk about things you know nothing about, i.e. whetheror not I have tried something. In this case you were very wrong about it. I never cry, I just argue my opinion. I also don't get pissy and start calling people crybabies when their opinion differes from my own, call it maturity I guess.
I respect the opinions of those who want to PVP, and I am all for Dev's developing game mechanics that make that aspect of the game fun for the people who like it. I am very against forcing those mechanics on the people who don't want to. It seems pretty obvious to me that forcing people to PVP who don't want to not only ruins the game for those people but ALSO for the (non griefing) PVPers.
In the future try to listen and respect other people's opinions, even if you disagree. People might start mistaking you for a grown up.
i was in beta for longer... i guarentee you that. i had no issues with people killing me and the people the i killed in kessel usually turned towards me as i approached. I didn't gank anyone, i didn't grief (incidentally, space is pretty much grief proof... no trip incaps, no black barring...) it was just straight ship vs ship combat. i won some, i lost some. way of the game and the /tells i recieved after were pretty much always the same "Nice fight" "Wow, that was quick" "You'll get me next time" /shrug maybe i can learn to adapt with the changes, maybe others can't. called adapting, surving, maturing. i find it deliciously ironic how you can claim maturity while arguing about a video game. maybe you should step back and look at what you are doing. you are complaining about a game... not just complaining but doing it in such a way that it constitutes a whine.
Seriously, i complain about the game too. there are broken things involved in this game that should be made better, but if they don't, i just shrug it off. If it really bothered me that much, i would just stop playing the game.
Well it all depends one how you implement team work to defeat your simular problems with others in a social gathering of friends. Learn to deal with the problem and try to beat it. But if getting the master box was made really easy, then whats the point of a challanging game.
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Last time i looked most of the NPC's had AI and acted differently, and yes most are predictable, but so are most pvp'ers.
Actually, JTL NPC's all pretty much act the same on a Tier to Tier basis.
I dont think running from NPC's in JTL will help, they have a timer to and if you run away and not finish the mission you will fail the mission(beta was fun finding all these things out) And some PVP players are not that much smarter ether, they tend to fly in repeditive patterns. Andjust like on the ground if your attacked by a npc you still have to choose to get away or fight.
Running from NPC's is a huge part of the Corvette mission. You or a mate will have to draw off the escorts before the Corvette is attacked. This is done by getting them to attack you, after which you outrun them and circle back on to the Corvette. Of course, with the "exploited" ships the devs gave the NPC's instead of better AI, this might not be possible anymore. (Meaning one of your mates must be "expendable")
TEAM WORK, SOCIAL VALUES, GAINING FRIENDS.....Will this due.
Nothing of the above justifies these missions. Hell, it doesn't even justify PVP at all. Teamwork, social values and gaining friends is as easy with PVE as with PVP. If not easier.
Kinshi wrote:
PVP is the meat of SWG action (aka the GCW) and like I said before FORCED PVP as you call it isnt forced at all. YOU make a concious choice to fly for a warring faction.
GCW != PVP. PVP is a part of the GCW but it is not all there is to it. Privateers made a concious choice to fly for a non-warring faction. How come they too are subjected to this?
The fact you are in a X-Wing or a TIE fighter is glaring evidence of the choices you make. Choices have consequences. In this case, the consequence is that you might get jumped (and I emphasize *MIGHT*).
That's funny. Pretty much all "neutral" factions in space flies X-wings and Z-95's (and somefactions even fly A-wings). It's not so glaringly evident that these are rebels now, is it?
When you run a faction mission on the ground, you are FORCED to make yourself open to PVP. That is the consequence of running those missions. For the most part you can run your mission and never see another member of the oppostion. JTL is no different.
No you're not. Delivery missions can be done without leaving yourself open to PVP attacks. JTL is very different in this regard since you can run your missions, kill some enemies and not get attacked by enemy players. JTL is very different in that one of the required missions for advancement takes place in a PVP sector. THE most PVP heavy sector in fact.
In this case MASTER PILOT means you are going to have to accept the risk of PvP death to acheive your reward. Doing the PvP to attain master is a true test of YOUR personal ability with a joystick, not unlike a real pilot (everything isnt like A Rifleman where you hide under a rock and shoot things with /concealshot with no risk of being shot back)
... Then riflemen, carbineers, TKA's and so forth should have a similar mission for gaining the master box?
Fact is the factional starships are a giant TEF that cannot simply be ignored. If you are in a TIE fighter then you are an Imperial (its like running around with your Stormtrooper armor on in public).
Wrong fact. There are no TEFs in space. I could follow an imperial around in my B-wing and taunt him without him ever being able to do something about it.
Again consequences for the choices we make in game. Risk vs Reward.
It's not a choice, it's mandatory if you indend to enjoy your expansion.
/salute SOE for making piloting skills meaningful rather than candy to be handed out
/rude SOE for ignoring the beta testers and countless threads on this issue.