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Thread: Concerning the Pro's of Forced PvP Mastership......
Slarus wrote:
I dont know if its stupid to putting master level in a PVP zone. it worked out fine in DAOC and a handfull of other online games.
The thing is having it pvp will mean you will have to group with ppl to get it finished, and if your just going to master pilot skills without pvp then whats to play after. PVP is a way to see how good you are, and the devs have thrown down the gauntlet of challenge to see if you can do it.
Do you not read or are you just plain ignorant. YOU HAVE TO GROUP TO FINISH IT REGARDLESS OF THE PVP OR NOT. THE MISSION IS NOT SOLOABLE.
But on the other end, ppl want to control as much as they can. They dont want to die because they think it will cost to much troble or time. PPL think violance is bad no matter(even though they will be killing lots of npc's)and if there hurt by another player its an attack on themselves. Well this is just a game, a place to have fun and learn. There is nothing to pvp except you just chasing a plyer controled character. The only griefing that will happen is if you let it happen. So lets see what ppl will consider a grief. Greifing is when a player singles out a person to constantly kill or harass. Well when in a pvp zone its almost a freeforall, so anyone can die so there is no griefing, it will all depend on how good your skills are.
And did anyone forget you have to be forced into pvp for jedi. so what is the difference, you want the goal of completeing parts of the game you will have to accept the dev challange.
Griefing is what many players will do to prvent groups from doing the Master quest. And I am totally against ANY forced PvP including Jedi, it is not a challenge it is an economic contest to see who has the best stuff, they are the ones who usually win in PvP, if you can do the PvE stuff you have the basic skills to PvP, what you maybe missiong is the tech gap by wealthy PvPers who out match you.
Most games PvP is who has the best stuff, this will be basically the same, PvP groups doing nothing but griefing Master mission groups, it is wrong it is not consentual it poses not challege other then BUYING the equipment for you and your group to keep up with the Jones' in space.
Well Slarus we know you answer and its you think that all PVP is griefing. You think that every body in a pvp area is out to grief kill everyone. Well i think you need to read up the word grief. Griefing is if one sole player sinngels you personaly out and will constantly kill, harass, and anyother mean thing in the book. In a PVP area, Griefing rarely happens since ppl will hunt and kill each other randomly to show off there skill(wow just like a jedi). And there is no difference between fighting NPC's and another player except that the player might be a little more unpredictible on flying and the weapons they have(wow you will have some good weapons to so the playing field will be about even).
So tell me what is the difference? What if the devs put the the last box to be mastered in an area where you had to fight through hunderds of NPC ships that were tuffer than a player made ship? Would you complain it was to hard and unfair. I really dont see the difference. I go to an area to get my master pilot skill, and i will have to fight agenst an enemy even if its another player or if its an npc. So do you get what i mean. Their is really no difference. Players will hunt you. Npc's will hunt you. The fight is still going to happen, just try to be faster and more skilled than the enemy, and have friends that will watch your back.
Well Slarus we know you answer and its you think that all PVP is griefing. You think that every body in a pvp area is out to grief kill everyone. Well i think you need to read up the word grief. Griefing is if one sole player sinngels you personaly out and will constantly kill, harass, and anyother mean thing in the book. In a PVP area, Griefing rarely happens since ppl will hunt and kill each other randomly to show off there skill(wow just like a jedi). And there is no difference between fighting NPC's and another player except that the player might be a little more unpredictible on flying and the weapons they have(wow you will have some good weapons to so the playing field will be about even).
It was happening in beta, and there is ZERO reason to believe it won't happen here. Groups sent out to do the Master Mission and gank squad waiting in the wings to prevent them, not honorably PvP, but solely out to get that group. Not every player is like that, but it doesn't take every player to make people miserable does it? Dening that griefing won't happen is rediculous it will happen it already has happened.
So tell me what is the difference? What if the devs put the the last box to be mastered in an area where you had to fight through hunderds of NPC ships that were tuffer than a player made ship? Would you complain it was to hard and unfair. I really dont see the difference. I go to an area to get my master pilot skill, and i will have to fight agenst an enemy even if its another player or if its an npc. So do you get what i mean. Their is really no difference. Players will hunt you. Npc's will hunt you. The fight is still going to happen, just try to be faster and more skilled than the enemy, and have friends that will watch your back.
Skill is not the issue I have said this. If it was too hard to do as PvE that is the case I'd be upset yes I would, but the game I bought said PvP is consentual and once again you seem to not get the point we are talking about. FORCED PVP, not consentual, not skill, not hiding, waxing cars, doing the Jitter bug nothing but ONE thing:
FORCED PVP
So I can't figure out why you and other keep telling us things like challenges, or skill, or proper justification of a title see above that is the issue.
Kinshi wrote:
I am not given to taking sides in these kinds of arguments but the anti-PvP crowd sure sounds like they need cheese with their whine.
There is only so much you can do w/ PvE content and its still a human versus an AI and scripted (at that point its pattern recognition), and as Kasparov has proven it takes a helluva big computer to outwit a human.
The best challenge a human can face is from another human. PvP (JTL style as I acknowledge the ground game has bad issues) is the top tier of the game. You dont get good playing against AIs, you get truly good when you match wits with another person and the excitement comes from the unpredictable nature of a human opponent.
With JTL, its not all boiled down to macros and buffs. Its the quality of your spacecraft, your in game skill level and how good YOU are on the stick. I suggest if you cannot handle it that you either stay on the public transports or pilot as a privateer.
The warring factions in the GCW dont need people who refuse to fight. Its risk vs reward. You put on that Rebel or Imperial uniform and/or choose to fly their ships, you take the risk associated with that.
There is your answer, dont fly to Deep Space or Kessel and dont fly for the warring factions.
... Except that Privateers/freelancers ALSO need to do this mission? So freelancers are suddenly part of the warring factions too?
In fact, I believe it might be even worse for them. (Wouldn't surprise me if they were targets to rebels, imperials and other privateers. Don't quote me on this though)
Naquiel wrote:
Well Slarus we know you answer and its you think that all PVP is griefing. You think that every body in a pvp area is out to grief kill everyone. Well i think you need to read up the word grief. Griefing is if one sole player sinngels you personaly out and will constantly kill, harass, and anyother mean thing in the book.
grief ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grf)
n.
1. Deep mental anguish, as that arising from bereavement. See Synonyms at regret.
2. A source of deep mental anguish.
3. Annoyance or frustration: Trying to follow their directions was nothing but grief.
4. Trouble or difficulty: the griefs of trying to meet a deadline.
5. Archaic. A grievance.
Yes, I know that this is not the definition of "grief" in the offical gamer handbook. So why did I state this definition? Well, it's simple. While most PvPers will just be in Kessel to PvP, a PvE player will percieve his death as grief if his mission is ruined. Just getting shot might be percieved as grief, since they didn't ask for it.In the end, this is all that matters since that will further push people away from trying PvP. In the very end these missions will hurt PvP rather than to promote it.
In a PVP area, Griefing rarely happens since ppl will hunt and kill each other randomly to show off there skill(wow just like a jedi). And there is no difference between fighting NPC's and another player except that the player might be a little more unpredictible on flying and the weapons they have(wow you will have some good weapons to so the playing field will be about even).
There is a pretty huge difference between masters and 4-4-4-4 pilots. Masters will have much better equiped ships. The playing field will not be quite even.
So tell me what is the difference? What if the devs put the the last box to be mastered in an area where you had to fight through hunderds of NPC ships that were tuffer than a player made ship? Would you complain it was to hard and unfair. I really dont see the difference.
The difference is that in that situation you would have a fairly good control over the situation. Sure, it might be hard, but you won't get your mission ruined by a player sneaking up on you at the worst possible time. Also, there is the issue of player mentality and such. People will take it much more personal if a player ruins their mission, than if an NPC would do it.
I go to an area to get my master pilot skill, and i will have to fight agenst an enemy even if its another player or if its an npc. So do you get what i mean. Their is really no difference. Players will hunt you. Npc's will hunt you. The fight is still going to happen, just try to be faster and more skilled than the enemy, and have friends that will watch your back.
That still doesn't justify these missions. Especially not in a game where PvP has always been optional.
Message Edited by Vicotnik on 10-28-2004 01:21 AM
Eldana wrote:
Phienyx wrote:
I used to be against PvP to Master, but then this will eliminate players who like to perp like they've got flying skills, but have yet to taste battle against a real, intelligent player. I think that being labeled as a Master/Ace should be an honorreserved for those that have actually earned the titleagainst other players (the MMO part of the game and all.....).
I'm so tired of people whining about "I shouldn't be forced to do this and I shouldn't be forced to do that." No matter what you do or don't do, there will be limitations and prerequesites for certain benefits. The choice is up to you to do what it takes to get there or not. If you chose not to PVP you don't get master. That's your choice. That's almost as dumb as saying that if in battle, I do everything to avoid combat, I should get the same benefits (medals/recognition)as the soldiers who risked their lives in a fashion that was above and beyond the call of duty. I know, I know, this is a game.....but there are still limits, guidelines and prerequisites that must be adhered to, otherwise the game becomes dull and pointless, because no matter how well or bad you do or how hard or little you work at it, you'll just end up with the same crap as everyone else. Removing any sense of any significant accomplishment is the quickest way to kill any excitement in a game.
Rofl "real, intelligent player". Most out there will be dorks that only want to make your life miserable.
What the heck is wrong with you guys?
It seems to me like you are junkies that run around on the streets jumping everyone and force your drugs into them.
I'm tired of guys like you whining about "these guys don't want to be killed by us wile they try to achieve something".
Some of you seem to think MM is only killing each other.
You might want to think from somthing other than your point of view, once in a while and you may just understand why things happen as they do and why this game is designed as it is......and maybe you'll understand just why the "other side" of any argument may have some valid points and why from the view of the over all "big picture" it might make sense.
First off, you made an assumtion about my play style simply based on my post. I'm sorry, I'm not quitethat simple and neither should you be. To fill you in, I rarely, if ever,engage in PvP combat. That is my choice based on the current state of the game. Currently, its pointless and has no meaning, even if it wan't bugged, exploitable and balanced properly. So, my point of view when I made my statement wasn't from that of a PvPer or one that likes to or has ever griefed or picked onanother player. I just think that to gain the top honors in a game, you should have to face some of the top challenges in a game. This brings me to my next point. The term "intelligent" is obviously used lightly. I use it in reference to a human with a free will, as opposed to a computer entity that will always behave relatively predictably within set parameters. Humans have an uncanny ability to find ways around most limits and intended boundaries and are very predictable, making combat against them much more lively and challengingthan combat against an NPC. I would not assume to speak for or against the intelligence of anyone who plays this game.
And as a side note, I'd be very careful who you classify as dorks. You may be correct in some cases, but I guarantee you're wrong in most cases. Who's to say someone wouldn't classify you as a dork?
But enough of that. Back to the subject at hand. I don't speak from personal preference, I speak from looking at the entire game as a whole (the a bigger picture) andthinking that requiring one to risk real danger to gain one of the top honors in the game is not a bad idea. After all, any honor is cheapened when there is no risk involved and any "dork" can achieve it without any extra demonstration of skillor intestinal fortitude. I'd even go so far as to say that a player should not be able to gain the title of Master/Ace until they have achieved a certain number of PvP kills against players of equal ranking or higher. However, any player should be able to actually complete the set of missions w/o having to risk PvP, just not gain the title of Master/Ace.
Please remember that sometimes the key to understanding is to put personal perference aside, look at the over all picture as a whole (not just your own point of view) and honestly think about if the opposing argument has any valid points and why.
Message Edited by Phienyx on 10-27-2004 07:28 PM
Dolgan wrote:
Any of you anti-pvpers ever thought about the fact that some people hate pve?? Yet we're FORCED (lol) to pve 2 thirds of the missions it seems, yet are we crying about being FORCED to do it?
... Then again, we all knew that PVE was a big part of the game when we bought it. PVP was never a mandatory thing, PVE has always been.
No. If you really have such a major issue with it, and some really do seem scared to actually interact with another player, there are plenty of games full of npc's that offer no challenge whatsoever. All this 'we're being forced' bullturd is nonesense. You want master, then you know whats required.
... And all the "you know what it means, so grow balls"-stuff is also just nonsense.
The problem is this is the first proffesion where to get master is actually partly dynamic. i.e you cant just afk on naboo beach or macro those armour repair kits etc you actually have to think and plan and prepare to acheive it.
Uh. We were never supposed to be able to do this in the ground game either.
Whether thats asking help form freinds, or biting the bullet and actually trying it alone. Just remember, once you've done it, you wont be FORCED to do it again. Is it really so hard? Or are you really that scared?
More nonsense. Nothing of this justifies these missions.
Naquiel wrote:
But again your not seeing what is in front of you. You go to the DWB and get your behind handed to you by hunderds of SBD, Do you call being killed by SBD griefing for following a program to react. The droids act randomly. In a pvp zone, you will have ppl there to fight(just like a SBD)in an area looking for an enemy(wow just like a SBD). When the enemy spots a target they react and start to attack(again just like a SBD). And who ever is better will win(just like a fight with a SBD). Well i didnt see a difference. The enemy is the enemy even if its a player or a NPC. You call it greifing because you are liknking a person behind the wheel of the ship or the person is out on a battlefield killing you and you take it personaly. Just make sure you are with friends and picture the enemy really good npc's. Yes a battle against another player might seem like griefing to you, but its not. that other player is just another enemy you have to deal with in a game. Call it a need to better your skills to beat them. and to help is to bring friends, lots of friends.
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Well Slarus we know you answer and its you think that all PVP is griefing. You think that every body in a pvp area is out to grief kill everyone. Well i think you need to read up the word grief. Griefing is if one sole player sinngels you personaly out and will constantly kill, harass, and anyother mean thing in the book.
grief ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grf)
n.
1. Deep mental anguish, as that arising from bereavement. See Synonyms at regret.
2. A source of deep mental anguish.
3. Annoyance or frustration: Trying to follow their directions was nothing but grief.
4. Trouble or difficulty: the griefs of trying to meet a deadline.
5. Archaic. A grievance.
Yes, I know that this is not the definition of "grief" in the offical gamer handbook. So why did I state this definition? Well, it's simple. While most PvPers will just be in Kessel to PvP, a PvE player will percieve his death as grief if his mission is ruined. Just getting shot might be percieved as grief, since they didn't ask for it.In the end, this is all that matters since that will further push people away from trying PvP. In the very end these missions will hurt PvP rather than to promote it.
If im running through the widerness and im shot or killed by a NPC, would i call that a grief by the game system? I dont think so. If im shot or killed by another player, would i call that griefing? No i would call it being stupid on my part for not looking around my surroundings and not being prepared.
In a PVP area, Griefing rarely happens since ppl will hunt and kill each other randomly to show off there skill(wow just like a jedi). And there is no difference between fighting NPC's and another player except that the player might be a little more unpredictible on flying and the weapons they have(wow you will have some good weapons to so the playing field will be about even).
There is a pretty huge difference between masters and 4-4-4-4 pilots. Masters will have much better equiped ships. The playing field will not be quite even.
Did you ever think that others grouped with you might be masters to helping and that the enemy might not all be masters also?
So tell me what is the difference? What if the devs put the the last box to be mastered in an area where you had to fight through hunderds of NPC ships that were tuffer than a player made ship? Would you complain it was to hard and unfair. I really dont see the difference.
The difference is that in that situation you would have a fairly good control over the situation. Sure, it might be hard, but you won't get your mission ruined by a player sneaking up on you at the worst possible time. Also, there is the issue of player mentality and such. People will take it much more personal if a player ruins their mission, than if an NPC would do it.
But thats the thing, being killed by a NPC or a player is the same, you dont know what will come after you especial in a pvp area where the NPC's and players will be very tuff so you still have to be prepared and be on the look out. You still have a radar and a choice to run like hell or stay and fight.
I go to an area to get my master pilot skill, and i will have to fight agenst an enemy even if its another player or if its an npc. So do you get what i mean. Their is really no difference. Players will hunt you. Npc's will hunt you. The fight is still going to happen, just try to be faster and more skilled than the enemy, and have friends that will watch your back.
That still doesn't justify these missions. Especially not in a game where PvP has always been optional.
I have played many online games where i had to go to a PVP area to get to master. It will all depend on who is with you and if there are many enemies around. Try team work and see if you can get through it as quick as possible. Or you can chose not to be a master and live with playing with what you got.
Message Edited by Vicotnik on 10-28-2004 01:21 AM
Well your right DWB is optional, the pvp zone is optional too, you can chose to go or not.
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
But again your not seeing what is in front of you. You go to the DWB and get your behind handed to you by hunderds of SBD, Do you call being killed by SBD griefing for following a program to react. The droids act randomly. In a pvp zone, you will have ppl there to fight(just like a SBD)in an area looking for an enemy(wow just like a SBD). When the enemy spots a target they react and start to attack(again just like a SBD). And who ever is better will win(just like a fight with a SBD). Well i didnt see a difference. The enemy is the enemy even if its a player or a NPC. You call it greifing because you are liknking a person behind the wheel of the ship or the person is out on a battlefield killing you and you take it personaly. Just make sure you are with friends and picture the enemy really good npc's. Yes a battle against another player might seem like griefing to you, but its not. that other player is just another enemy you have to deal with in a game. Call it a need to better your skills to beat them. and to help is to bring friends, lots of friends.
There is a huge whooping difference. The DWB is completely optional. A skill box in the profession tree is really not optional. Oh, I fully expect some more "blah blah blah, stay at 4-4-4-4 if you haven't got the balls, blah, blah, blah" replies, but read what I wrote a few posts up about this first. Ok?
Still don't see a single justification in any posts yet.
Naquiel wrote:
If im running through the widerness and im shot or killed by a NPC, would i call that a grief by the game system? I dont think so. If im shot or killed by another player, would i call that griefing? No i would call it being stupid on my part for not looking around my surroundings and not being prepared.
Key difference: NPC's don't have a will of their own. They just do as they are programmed, they are predictable. Players do as they choose. They are unpredictable. Players actually CHOOSE to attack other players, NPC don't.
Did you ever think that others grouped with you might be masters to helping and that the enemy might not all be masters also?
Sure. But that wasn't the issue here. The issue here was that there won't be an equal fight no matter what you do.
But thats the thing, being killed by a NPC or a player is the same, you dont know what will come after you especial in a pvp area where the NPC's and players will be very tuff so you still have to be prepared and be on the look out. You still have a radar and a choice to run like hell or stay and fight.
It's not the same, not at all. Get attacked by a player and you'll either have to win or die (or hyperspace away, but that will end your mission in this case). Get attacked by an NPC and you can just flee for a bit, or fight and win. Another difference: NPC's are dumb, they don't have much capacity of choices. Players CHOOSE which other players to attack, as per above.
I have played many online games where i had to go to a PVP area to get to master. It will all depend on who is with you and if there are many enemies around. Try team work and see if you can get through it as quick as possible. Or you can chose not to be a master and live with playing with what you got.
Good for you. I still don't see how this would justify these missions. The "many online games" !=SWG.
Give me ONE good justification for this sudden change of PvP/PvE policy. Give me ONE justification that people who hate something will have to do it to get the most out of the expansion they bought (unknowingly that the rules had changed)? Give me ONE justification for these missions making PVP even more shunned by non-PVPers?
Just give me ONE good reason, and I will shut up.