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BrotherDavius wrote:

So you have to kill players to do this mission............... Hang on no you don't get some mates to cover your back and kill any players that are near you say 1000-2000m that way only npcs will be left and your mates can warn you and engage players who might be after you.

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Massadonious wrote:

I'm a casual PvP'er on the ground. I PvP as much as I PvE.Does that make me half a L337 d00d?

Stereotypes are bad. Don't use them. Unless you want to get flamed. I don't like to get flamed. Do you?

Stereotypes are bad, but it goes both ways. Like dear old Cuality up there calling people "scared" of PVP.

That being said...I did play beta, albiet only for about 5 days. I never once touched Kessel. I did get to try out some PvP though.

At this point in the game, I think you all are overreacting just a tad.

I don't think so. In fact, I finished the master missions on the beta server. I know exactly how this will play out if it goes live.

The impression I got was that Pilot is not something that can be powergammed in a week. I think it's going to be a bit before we even see our first Master Pilot. And that is a GOOD thing. Yes, there will be griefers and azzhats. That is unavoidable. But, do you honestly think there are going to be enoughof them camped inside Kessel, waiting for all you 4444 pilots so they can come and grief you? It is a open PvP zone. Odds are, they are more than likely to grief each other to give a rats ass about you.

We'll see our first master pilots in a week, backed by their own guilds. It'sfairly easy to powergame your way to master pilot. The only thing that will keep people on the live servers at bay is the fact that the shipwrights will have to grind their way to master first. However, the shipwright grind is quick enough, it just takes a lot of resources. Big guilds will havea master shipwright within days.

Also, I have a feeling that grouping with other players is going to be a big part of your progression. That's one of the fundemental problems with the ground game. Too many things that would normally require a group, can be easily soloable. I do admit to using solo groups for profession advancement and monetary gain, but let me tell you one thing. It is BORING. My guild huntsare by far much more fun and rewarding.

Yes, most people will have to group to finish the Tier 4 and master missions. That's a good thing. I have never ever used solo groups in the ground game because the thought sickens me. Then again, I'm poor as a church mouse. One thing about the second master mission is that it would fit much, much, much better as post master group content. The first mission will be hard enough if it is kept as is, and there is not much content left after you master so...

With that in mind, do you honestly think that you should be able to do the Master level missions.....take on 20 or so enemy ships,capitol ships,along with other player characters, solo? I'm sorry, but if you think that way, then you deserve what you get. SOE wants to make thismastery worth a damn, and for that, I applaud them.Find some friends/guildies, get a big group together, and your odds of succeedingare that much greater. Don't have a guild? Find one. Don't have friends? Make some. After it's all said and done, you never, ever have to PvP again, but at least you know you did it. You went to hell and back. Youfought your hardest.YouEARNED your mastery.

Yes, it should be earned. But that's possible to do in a PVE zone instead. Most people aren't asking for a set of master missions that are possible to solo, but for one that does not require you to become a PVP target.

In closing, I would like to ask you all this question.

If they switched the missions to anon PvP zone, but kept the difficulty of the missions intact (also taking into account the lack of PC's...which would mean added difficulty actually), would you be all for that? Or, is your beef just with PvP as a whole?

Hell yes. Leave the PVP zone for PVP. This is what we've been asking for for quite some time now. The developers seem intent to ignore the issue though.

I enjoy both aspects of the game, so it's hard for me to take sides, but you all need to step back and look at the bigger picture.

Me too. However, I won't be able to enjoy PVP in Kessel if these missions stay in. I just don't get much enjoyment over killing someone and ruining their missions.

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Cuality wrote:

Lol! You are just getting silly now. If you dislike something to thedegree of hating or loathing them, does that mean you would fear them? No. If you would find onions to be the most loathsome, disgusting edible thing ever, would you fear them? Of course not.

the things that i hate... i fear. i hate sharks. dark water. clowns. i hate them because i fear them.

Oook. I obviously have no insight in your psyche, but I hate Formula One racing. I absolutely do not fear it at all, I just find it dreadfully boring. Fear != hate, no matter what Yoda will tell you.

if they bring along 25 friends then i'm sure they will... its a give and take thing. when i get to master, i will more than likely be flying with my guild

Yeah, but in this scenario you mentioned, they didn't bring 25 friends. So shall those 3 imperials feel safer?

Yes, but this still means that the PVP (master)population in Kessel will be higher than in Deep Space.

at times... yes... but not when people organize to take down the various targets.

We both know that the population in Kessel will almost always be higher than in Deep Space. Even with Deep Space and the SD/base, there isn't that much to fight over. Once the novely about fighting over these two things will end, there will only be sporadic trips into deep space.

i would count the missions as content. it is more involving than just killing random critters. sure, its a stretch, but the missions are still content...

It's a big stretch, that's for sure.

Yeah, I dare you to find a TIE fighter and fit it with components that can match a Tier 4 TIE fighter. Then try a Z95. Or heck, even try an A-wing. You can never fit those with components of the same caliber as the NPC ships. (Well, unless you use the "pre mass-nerf" components that's still around on Spacebeta1).

I'll call BS on that one. Sure, your engines might keep up, but can your shields and other weapons keep up?

having an interceptor means i have weaker shields. but my weapons are top off the line. I may not be able to survive a direct hit... but they have to hit me first.

Yes, but then your ship is not in line with the NPC ships, is it?

Uh, no. You don't do beta tests just for stress tests. If that were the case, why the did they need us to post feedback?

to see where the various bugs were that QA couldn't get at. AI can be tested with a QA team. POP problems can be done with QA.

I disagree. You can test the AI with just a QA team. If you change the AI, the balance in all NPC fights is altered. If you alter the balance in NPC fights, you need to test all missions again. IMHO, it's a bit late to start tweak the AI two days before the beta ends.

no, i was referring to the statement that you quoted... the one where if i killed a mission taker and they /hatetell me, how i would respond... how would that prove its a bad idea?

I don't have to prove it. Getting hate tells is indeed a proof that these missions are just a bad idea, since that will hurt PVP. Not promote it.

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Xplak wrote:

Yea i have to say, what it's doing is forcing you NOT to solo it. If everything to do with pilot was solable then it would just turn into the ground game and we'd have to wait a year and a half for a space combat balance. Want to get master pilot? Then get some people to help you and figure out a tactic to keep the pvp'ers off you.

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It already isn't quite realistic to try and solo these missions, not after the latest upgrades to NPC stats (The developers call it AI, but it completely lacks the I) and the Gunboats. This issue has nothing to do with soloing or grouping for these missions.

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Vicotnik wrote:

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Xplak wrote:

Yea i have to say, what it's doing is forcing you NOT to solo it. If everything to do with pilot was solable then it would just turn into the ground game and we'd have to wait a year and a half for a space combat balance. Want to get master pilot? Then get some people to help you and figure out a tactic to keep the pvp'ers off you.

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It already isn't quite realistic to try and solo these missions, not after the latest upgrades to NPC stats (The developers call it AI, but it completely lacks the I) and the Gunboats. This issue has nothing to do with soloing or grouping for these missions.

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If one person can get a group of people together to complete the mission why can everyone else not do that?

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Felinae wrote:

70% of the people on ground game were neutral,

and of the rest only 10% were overt?

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Both of these are misleading stats.

70% ofcharacters are neutral, but practically everybody playing the game has characters on other servers for the sole purpose of trading lots or just taking a peek, and they have not bothered to grind faction.

10% of characters are overt at any given time, that is, when they take a snapshot of overt/covert percentages, at that instant, 10% are overt. I know very few people, even hardcore PVPers, who are overt all of the time, or even most of the time. Add to that the fact that tons of people have multiple accounts and only PVP on one of them..... Truth is, probably at least 50% of the people playing this game engage in PVP.

The master missions should be removed from the PVP zone. "Griefing", intended as such or not, will happen and people will be ticked - both those that are getting attacked who are trying to do the mission, and those looking for some fun PVP who get hate tells from those they attack. The true griefers won't care - this is a field day for them.

There's not even a bonus to try and engage players while doing the mission. Even if the person running the mission manages to kill a player who attacks, there is no benefit whatsoever. They won, but now have to go back to the mission quite possibly with damaged equipment, less missles, and less countermeasures. If player kills counted towards your mission count, that would at least make it worth it to fight off your attackers.

Just take the mission out of the PVP zone. It will make the game more enjoyable for the most number of players. Then anyone venturing in the PVP zone will be doing so to engage in PVP. Most PVP'ers are not, and don't want to be, griefers. They just want to slug it out with other real people who are looking for the same thing.

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Vicotnik wrote:

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Cuality wrote:

No, I absolutely would NOT go to a race. In fact, I would never ever put myself in a position where I "had" to do it. STILL doesn't mean that I fear it. Dislike/loathe same thing, just of different degree. STILL doesn't mean that they fear it.

Dislike and loathe are totally different things. Loathe = hate. hate = fear. simply as that.

Lol! You are just getting silly now. If you dislike something to thedegree of hating or loathing them, does that mean you would fear them? No. If you would find onions to be the most loathsome, disgusting edible thing ever, would you fear them? Of course not.

the things that i hate... i fear. i hate sharks. dark water. clowns. i hate them because i fear them.

so... why are we having this conversation? i have already complained about it enough. take them out. take them out. i have not said to keep them in.

Beats me. However, you aren't exactly helping when you're here arguing that people are "afraid of PVP".

just the ones who keep saying that they will be griefed.

hmmm... so if you enter kessel as a rebel and there are 25 rebel ships flying around and 3 imp ships... would you feel safer?

Not safer than when I entered Kessel and there was just one imperial there, no. Besides. Shall those 3 imperials feel safer?

if they bring along 25 friends then i'm sure they will... its a give and take thing. when i get to master, i will more than likely be flying with my guild

yes... the people who just want to pvp will go to kessel. the ones that want to feel like they are doing something worthwhile will go into deep space and try to take out the SD our the station. its the difference between the people who park outside a spaceport waiting for overts and those that base raid.

Yes, but this still means that the PVP (master)population in Kessel will be higher than in Deep Space.

at times... yes... but not when people organize to take down the various targets.

i would count the missions as content. it is more involving than just killing random critters. sure, its a stretch, but the missions are still content...

It's a big stretch, that's for sure.

Yeah, I dare you to find a TIE fighter and fit it with components that can match a Tier 4 TIE fighter. Then try a Z95. Or heck, even try an A-wing. You can never fit those with components of the same caliber as the NPC ships. (Well, unless you use the "pre mass-nerf" components that's still around on Spacebeta1).

easily... with the proper resources and a few "tweaks" you can keep up. in fact, my interceptor right now can keep with the tier 4 ships.

I'll call BS on that one. Sure, your engines might keep up, but can your shields and other weapons keep up?

having an interceptor means i have weaker shields. but my weapons are top off the line. I may not be able to survive a direct hit... but they have to hit me first.

Lets take the A-wing I crafted today as an example. With the atop engine, and a decent reactor there isn't much space left for shields or weapons. So the choice now is: Do I want strong shields and weak weapons, strong weapons or a weak shield, or a balance? You can never ever have an A-wing that is as powerful as an NPC one of the appropriate Tier. Never ever. In fact, with a top crafted engine, an A-wing won't even keep up with NPC ships. With engine overload it might, but not in its base form.

Now take the TIE fighter as an example. The TIE/ln has what? 30k mass, or something like that? Try to fit that one with components equal to NPC TIEs at tier 4. You can't. Do the same with the Z-95 or Scyk. With their 10k mass they can barely even fit level 1 components.

actually, the lutwaffe used the doctrine of jousting in their dogfights. too bad they still lost over britain... but they sure tore it up through russia and when the RAF and USAF came in. I think they should have a mixture of both that would react to how the player fights.

Exactly. ALL we have now is jousting. Even an NPC that is far, faaaar, faaaaaaar inferior than you will attack you outright. They don't even try to maneuver, just attack and turn, attack and turn. This is not AI, it's just A.

called skill. as in who is moving the joystick skill. as in shoot better and shoot faster.

yes... learning to shoot while evading is a hard skill to teach. I still haven't lost to an NPC. even today.

Good for you.

I will admit that low tier AI seems a bit better, but Tier 4 and 5 is completely out of whack because of this change.

that's what you get for thinking. they say they are putting it to a live test server... valcyn if i remember correctly. No one else can test it but QA, but they will no doubt patch from there and that is what we get on live.

no... the players were there to simulate what a full server could do and to allow players to break them. it is the QA's job to test the game... not the players. We were there for content, mission and various bugs that the QA team couldn't do without a mass of people.

Uh, no. You don't do beta tests just for stress tests. If that were the case, why the did they need us to post feedback?

to see where the various bugs were that QA couldn't get at. AI can be tested with a QA team. POP problems can be done with QA.

where in your statement do you prove that it is a bad idea?

I have been doing that for several posts now. Pay attention.

no, i was referring to the statement that you quoted... the one where if i killed a mission taker and they /hatetell me, how i would respond... how would that prove its a bad idea?

i didn't know i was trying to impress anyone out there... miss manners would be so ashamed of me.

Yup.

dang... i feel so bad now. i cried a little inside... anyway, last post for the night, shift over.

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