Jump To Lightspeed Archive
Thread: Ok I have been saying this in Beta for the past week so here it goes.....Forced PVP in JTL
Cuality
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:53 pm
#79
Vicotnik wrote:
Cuality wrote:
BLUE!!! Gunboats and their escorts are no problem. The vettes are tough but a group of about 6 can take one out if they know what they are doing.I have been able to take on a gunboat and spin around as a rebel fighter came swooping in behind me. It's called situational awareness.
Actually, the 'vettes are easier than the gunboats. Yes, they are harder to destroy, but the Master mission Corvettes have a habit of following their preset waypoints. Gunboats will chase you until you're dead or far, far away. This leaves the option open for attack runs on the Corvette.
shuttles are easily destroyed by a friend while you distract it. Mission corvettes are fairly easy... its the random ones that aren't.
No... they are worried... they said it themselves... they don't want to be "griefed" they are afraid that if it stays this way that they will be jumped by griefers. In fact the last line... they are afraid that someone will ruin their fun. It is a fear.
Get over it. Not wanting their game experienced ruined does NOT equal being afraid. It's not "fear". Not wanting to be griefed has got absolutely nothing to do with fear, who the hell is of such a weak mind that they will tremble in fear of a virtual death? No, it's about loosing enjoyment and wasting time.
heh, they are "afraid" that it will happen. it is what they fear. i guess you should check the definition of "afraid". i am not talking a full blown phobia... but its akin to the fear of being late to work, or the fear that you may get caught while speeding. or the fear that someone you know may die. base fears, not complex ones. but still fears nonetheless. Do you think there would be this great of an outcry if the final mission involved taking out a large cap ship with 100's of fighter support who are all agroed on you and who have weapons that can tear through your ship in 2-3 shots? no... people are complaining that they are "forced" to pvp. and why are people complaining about this? do they have some sort of religious compunctions against going at it? do they honestly distaste the thought of pvp that they would feel strongly enough to complain about it on the forums? no, its because they do not want to be killed or "griefed" by another player... and that my friend, is called fear.
Not true. The l33t griefers will not be floating around kessel looking for prey... there is probably about 10 other easier griefs that someone can do without blowing someone up who has a chance to fight back. This isn't like the ground game where the PvP'ers can get unhittable templates and park in front of the spaceport. The people who are getting "ganked" have the same chance is space as their attacker does. You may see them roaming alone in space... but they'll learn quick enough that the playing field is level and most will either end up back on the ground or doing other things like ramming your ship over and over to grief you.
I disagree. Griefers will most likely hang around Kessel looking for prey. Someone ramming your ship is not even that much of a grief. Sure, it can be annoying, but it does no damage what so ever. Griefers who use PVP as a method will hang around Kessel looking for people doing these missions since that's the easiest targets ever.
no... griefers will try to disrupt you in an environment that is conducive to themselves. A fairly equal fight is something the griefers dread. If you get killed in kessel while doing a mission you will more likely than not have been killed by a legitimate pvper who was just shooting you before you shot him.
Most people agree to move it. Get it out of the zone. The devs wanted to, i guess, introduce a "wild" environment for the masters.
Yes, well, the developers have a history of making bad decisions *cough*hologrinding*cough*. This is one of them, and it needs to be changed. This is why you'll see these threads until it happens. Still doesn't explain why people are here arguing against it though.
i have never argued against it. take it out of the pvp zones, i hate seeing people cry.
Maybe. No. Not easy targets... these people are 4-4-4-4 pilots... they should have at least a little margin of skill.
Skill is worth jack when the attackers can wipe you out with one or two hits. The attackers will most likely have the element of surprise, since 4-4-4-4 pilots will be focused on their mission targets.
that is called situational awareness. knowing your surroundings. aware of what is happening... and not having a wingmate or a few friends to fall back on. When in a pvp zone in beta... i was always cycling through targets and checking my radar for player ships... i was only surprised once in space (still won that one... countermeasures were hit quickly enough)
situational awareness is a skill that any master pilot should have anyway.
Cuality
Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:04 pm
#80
Vicotnik wrote:
Cuality wrote:
They are scared of pvp. They don't want to get "ganked" "griefed" "rolled" whatever. Its not that they don't want to do it. They are afraid of what people do when they beat them.
Stereotypes are still bad. The above is a stereotype. It's not about being "scared" of PVP, it's just that (and read this out loud now!): Some people just don't like it. Period. And in this case it's about the fact that missions will be ruined by other people.
why don't people like it? answer that question. why don't people like pvp? it is because they are "afraid" of being killed or griefed by another person. that their mission will be ruined by other people. The people who do not want this and call pvpers griefers are all afraid that we will stop them from completing their mission.
Of course. You would know exactly what happens when you have dozens of master level pilots in a zone... not many reached master pilot in the last stage of beta. (i was one of them... kessel and deep space were more often than not... empty.)
Kessel and deep space was more often that not empty, yes. But get this: That's because there weren't that many master pilots. This will change on the live servers, and that's pretty much the heart of this issue. We know that Kessel will be much more populated.
indeed... and will it only be populated by one group? people seem to be under the impression that no one on their side will be there fighting, that groups of players for the opposite faction will be hunting the void for them.
Also in a stroke of SOE genious, the developers today set the entrance cost to Deep Space to 300k prestige points. This means that you won't see much actual PVP in Deep space, the master pilots will instead go to Kessel. Good job, devs!
i think someone screwed that one, more than likely a typo in the system... if not it should be, 30k is reasonable.
The first master shipwrights will be on live servers inless than hour after it goes up. All you do is grind the chassis and you get bank of xp... lots of resources, but many large guilds and crafters have the resources stockpiled. Master pilots will take a week for the hardcore players, maybe a little more than that.
Exactly.
Master content hasn't been added yet... aside from the pvp zone. I would expect them to start throwing in master missions with varied loot after launch.
You would expect that, but honestly considering the past of SWG, I just can't expect that. I fully expect the developers to head on to the next expansion, whatever that may be.
they have thrown master level stuff in at the live servers for a while. Geo caves, deathwatch, corvette. i would expect them to do the same here. Not to mention they will be putting in the combat revamp, the smuggler revamp and the GCW revamp within the next few months.
The hardest part is distinguishing between a player and an NPC craft. In case no one has noticed... the AI in beta just got a lot harder... this is not like the ground game where only PC players do specials and wear armor and know how to fight... the AI has been beefed up hard and in a lot of cases will be harder than your average PC. That being said, we don't want you people in the pvp zone. We hate having to explain that we don't know what you are doing... just that you are a target and red is dead.
Honestly, I don't think the AI got better. If anything, it got dumber. All they do now is to do an attack run, circle around do an attack run. Rinse and repeat. It seems better since they also got better ships than players can ever own, fly at speeds no A-wing can match, and out maneuver the most nimble TIE interceptor. Oh, and of course, their shields are stronger than any Decimator could ever have.
ok... AI isn't smarter... but they are harder.
What we have right now is jousting in space. I'd prefer dogfighting with fancy maneuvers, where you'd actually have to try get on the enemy ships tail. Not this "circle around and around" dogfighting.
then learn how to counter it. you can still outmaneuver someone who is doing runs on your craft.
I will admit that low tier AI seems a bit better, but Tier 4 and 5 is completely out of whack because of this change.
agreed, but they still are patching. tier 4 and 5 ships won't be that big of a problem for at least 2-3 weeks after launch.
Yes, leave PvP for those that want to PvP. Carebears can shoot up their own "special" ships but get them out of the zones.
Again with the stereotypes. Sheesh...
not a stereotype... thats just a term given to people who don't like pvp.
If it stays in live, i will have no issues with killing people who are doing their missions... simply because, even though they promote love, peace and unity and all that hippie stuff... most people in that zone will shoot whoever is moving, and its better to shoot first and ask questions later.
And that's exactly why these missions need to be revamped/removed.
I can't imagine that you'd enjoy recieving the tells from angry "carebears" that you will be getting? These missions do not promote PVP in any way, all it does is to damage it and make PVP even more hated by "the carebears".
that's what /ignore is for... or just telling them to come crying at you later when they learn how to fly.
Vicotnik
Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:19 pm
#81
Cuality wrote:
Stereotypes are still bad. The above is a stereotype. It's not about being "scared" of PVP, it's just that (and read this out loud now!): Some people just don't like it. Period. And in this case it's about the fact that missions will be ruined by other people.
why don't people like it? answer that question. why don't people like pvp? it is because they are "afraid" of being killed or griefed by another person. that their mission will be ruined by other people. The people who do not want this and call pvpers griefers are all afraid that we will stop them from completing their mission.
No, that's BS. Just because you do not like something it doesn't mean that you are "afraid" of it. I don't care much for Formula One racing, does that mean I'm afraid of it? Nope. I just dislike it. Do people who have no interest in playing as a crafter or entertainer fear it? Nope. The fact is that it's not for everyone, some people just don't like it. Fear is not a factor.
Kessel and deep space was more often that not empty, yes. But get this: That's because there weren't that many master pilots. This will change on the live servers, and that's pretty much the heart of this issue. We know that Kessel will be much more populated.
indeed... and will it only be populated by one group? people seem to be under the impression that no one on their side will be there fighting, that groups of players for the opposite faction will be hunting the void for them.
So? More people in Kessel equals more people being killed while doing their missions. More people in Kessel does not equal more safetly for people doing their missions.
Also in a stroke of SOE genious, the developers today set the entrance cost to Deep Space to 300k prestige points. This means that you won't see much actual PVP in Deep space, the master pilots will instead go to Kessel. Good job, devs!
i think someone screwed that one, more than likely a typo in the system... if not it should be, 30k is reasonable.
Yeah, it's probably a typo.Though I very much expect most (PVP) masters to go to Kessel to PVP even with just a 30k cost. The cost is just too high to get killed in no time when you can enter another PVP zone for free.
You would expect that, but honestly considering the past of SWG, I just can't expect that. I fully expect the developers to head on to the next expansion, whatever that may be.
they have thrown master level stuff in at the live servers for a while. Geo caves, deathwatch, corvette. i would expect them to do the same here. Not to mention they will be putting in the combat revamp, the smuggler revamp and the GCW revamp within the next few months.
Umm... Geo caves, Deathwatch, Corvette and the Warren.Four things, that's not much for 15 months of operation. No, don't expect too much to be added to JTL. Especially not when the devs also must add more things to the ground game.
Honestly, I don't think the AI got better. If anything, it got dumber. All they do now is to do an attack run, circle around do an attack run. Rinse and repeat. It seems better since they also got better ships than players can ever own, fly at speeds no A-wing can match, and out maneuver the most nimble TIE interceptor. Oh, and of course, their shields are stronger than any Decimator could ever have.
ok... AI isn't smarter... but they are harder.
Harder, yes. But that's just because their ships are so much more powerful than anything players can hope to own.
What we have right now is jousting in space. I'd prefer dogfighting with fancy maneuvers, where you'd actually have to try get on the enemy ships tail. Not this "circle around and around" dogfighting.
then learn how to counter it. you can still outmaneuver someone who is doing runs on your craft.
And how do you propose that people shall outmaneuver and counter ships that fly faster than all PC ships and maneuver better than most?
I will admit that low tier AI seems a bit better, but Tier 4 and 5 is completely out of whack because of this change.
agreed, but they still are patching. tier 4 and 5 ships won't be that big of a problem for at least 2-3 weeks after launch.
Considering that the beta servers will be closed down tomorrow, I don't think they will be patching much more.
Yes, leave PvP for those that want to PvP. Carebears can shoot up their own "special" ships but get them out of the zones.
Again with the stereotypes. Sheesh...
not a stereotype... thats just a term given to people who don't like pvp.
Ah, in the same sense that "l337 PVP d00d"-griefer is a term given to people who pvp? Nope, sorry. Still a stereotype.
If it stays in live, i will have no issues with killing people who are doing their missions... simply because, even though they promote love, peace and unity and all that hippie stuff... most people in that zone will shoot whoever is moving, and its better to shoot first and ask questions later.
And that's exactly why these missions need to be revamped/removed.
I can't imagine that you'd enjoy recieving the tells from angry "carebears" that you will be getting? These missions do not promote PVP in any way, all it does is to damage it and make PVP even more hated by "the carebears".
that's what /ignore is for... or just telling them to come crying at you later when they learn how to fly.
... And yet again you prove why these missions are such a bad idea...
Cuality
Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:26 pm
#83
mafiree wrote:
do neutrals have to pvp?
if you go to the pvp zones... yes.
Vicotnik
Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:26 pm
#84
Cuality wrote:
Get over it. Not wanting their game experienced ruined does NOT equal being afraid. It's not "fear". Not wanting to be griefed has got absolutely nothing to do with fear, who the hell is of such a weak mind that they will tremble in fear of a virtual death? No, it's about loosing enjoyment and wasting time.
heh, they are "afraid" that it will happen. it is what they fear. i guess you should check the definition of "afraid". i am not talking a full blown phobia... but its akin to the fear of being late to work, or the fear that you may get caught while speeding. or the fear that someone you know may die. base fears, not complex ones. but still fears nonetheless. Do you think there would be this great of an outcry if the final mission involved taking out a large cap ship with 100's of fighter support who are all agroed on you and who have weapons that can tear through your ship in 2-3 shots? no... people are complaining that they are "forced" to pvp. and why are people complaining about this? do they have some sort of religious compunctions against going at it? do they honestly distaste the thought of pvp that they would feel strongly enough to complain about it on the forums? no, its because they do not want to be killed or "griefed" by another player... and that my friend, is called fear.
So you actually think that all people who dislike PVP does so for the griefing potential? Wrong. As I've said plenty of times so far, fear has got nothing to do with it. PVP is not for everyone, in the same way that crafting or Image Designing is not for everyone. That does not mean that they "fear" it. Now, the people who dislike PVP, do you expect them to be happy when they are subjected to them by default? Of course not, and that is why you see these threads, and you had better get used to them. It has absolutely nothing to do with fear.
I disagree. Griefers will most likely hang around Kessel looking for prey. Someone ramming your ship is not even that much of a grief. Sure, it can be annoying, but it does no damage what so ever. Griefers who use PVP as a method will hang around Kessel looking for people doing these missions since that's the easiest targets ever.
no... griefers will try to disrupt you in an environment that is conducive to themselves. A fairly equal fight is something the griefers dread. If you get killed in kessel while doing a mission you will more likely than not have been killed by a legitimate pvper who was just shooting you before you shot him.
Umm... Attacking someone in Kessel while they are doing a mission is not an even fight. The attacker will more often than not get the first shot.
Skill is worth jack when the attackers can wipe you out with one or two hits. The attackers will most likely have the element of surprise, since 4-4-4-4 pilots will be focused on their mission targets.
that is called situational awareness. knowing your surroundings. aware of what is happening... and not having a wingmate or a few friends to fall back on. When in a pvp zone in beta... i was always cycling through targets and checking my radar for player ships... i was only surprised once in space (still won that one... countermeasures were hit quickly enough)
situational awareness is a skill that any master pilot should have anyway.
Heh... Yeah, that was fairly easy on the beta servers, considering that the zone was almost always empty.
Cuality
Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:51 pm
#85
Vicotnik wrote:
Cuality wrote:
Get over it. Not wanting their game experienced ruined does NOT equal being afraid. It's not "fear". Not wanting to be griefed has got absolutely nothing to do with fear, who the hell is of such a weak mind that they will tremble in fear of a virtual death? No, it's about loosing enjoyment and wasting time.
heh, they are "afraid" that it will happen. it is what they fear. i guess you should check the definition of "afraid". i am not talking a full blown phobia... but its akin to the fear of being late to work, or the fear that you may get caught while speeding. or the fear that someone you know may die. base fears, not complex ones. but still fears nonetheless. Do you think there would be this great of an outcry if the final mission involved taking out a large cap ship with 100's of fighter support who are all agroed on you and who have weapons that can tear through your ship in 2-3 shots? no... people are complaining that they are "forced" to pvp. and why are people complaining about this? do they have some sort of religious compunctions against going at it? do they honestly distaste the thought of pvp that they would feel strongly enough to complain about it on the forums? no, its because they do not want to be killed or "griefed" by another player... and that my friend, is called fear.
So you actually think that all people who dislike PVP does so for the griefing potential? Wrong. As I've said plenty of times so far, fear has got nothing to do with it. PVP is not for everyone, in the same way that crafting or Image Designing is not for everyone. That does not mean that they "fear" it. Now, the people who dislike PVP, do you expect them to be happy when they are subjected to them by default? Of course not, and that is why you see these threads, and you had better get used to them. It has absolutely nothing to do with fear.
no... they hate pvp. they don't dislike it. they hate it. whether it be from the possibility of griefers. or the possibility of losing. someone who dislikes something will not be that upset if they had to do it. i dislike onions, but i'll eat them if i had to. sure i wouldn't want to, but i still would. the people in these threads dispise and hate pvp. Now i know there are some people out there who do dislike it... but they aren't in these posts. they see the change and say: ok... so i may have to pvp, no big deal, i mean, i only dislike pvp, its not like i hate it.
I disagree. Griefers will most likely hang around Kessel looking for prey. Someone ramming your ship is not even that much of a grief. Sure, it can be annoying, but it does no damage what so ever. Griefers who use PVP as a method will hang around Kessel looking for people doing these missions since that's the easiest targets ever.
no... griefers will try to disrupt you in an environment that is conducive to themselves. A fairly equal fight is something the griefers dread. If you get killed in kessel while doing a mission you will more likely than not have been killed by a legitimate pvper who was just shooting you before you shot him.
Umm... Attacking someone in Kessel while they are doing a mission is not an even fight. The attacker will more often than not get the first shot.
again comes down to player skill. a smart pilot always watches his ass... and if he can't he gets someone who can... or he dies... that is the law of flight combat, not just this game. a smart pilot will never put himself in a position where he is open and vulnerable to a shot up the tailpipe.
Skill is worth jack when the attackers can wipe you out with one or two hits. The attackers will most likely have the element of surprise, since 4-4-4-4 pilots will be focused on their mission targets.
that is called situational awareness. knowing your surroundings. aware of what is happening... and not having a wingmate or a few friends to fall back on. When in a pvp zone in beta... i was always cycling through targets and checking my radar for player ships... i was only surprised once in space (still won that one... countermeasures were hit quickly enough)
situational awareness is a skill that any master pilot should have anyway.
Heh... Yeah, that was fairly easy on the beta servers, considering that the zone was almost always empty.
how much harder would it be on live? you can tell when someone is zeroing in on you and disengage from what you are trying to kill or evade like a madman. not to mention if you go in with the knowledge there are other people out there and a group of like 10 people... and task someone to keep an eye on all player craft. it's easy to get the drop on one player. 10 people is a whole different story.
Vicotnik
Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:06 pm
#86
Cuality wrote:
this is an aspect of the game that we play. in all honesty... when you are flying around, it's hard to tell between pvp and pve. Now you say you don't like formula one racing... but lets say that you had to go to a race. would you still go? or do you absolutely loathe it? the people who are complaining about this are not people who just dislike pvp but rather loathe it... do remember fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate. sure it's a cliched line but it runs together with this one. i have yet to see one of the pve'rs say: well, i don't like to pvp but i guess if i have to just this once to master my box, i could work with that... no its: PvPers are griefers and they are FORCING us to pvp. you can't force someone who dislikes something... you can only force people who hate/despise/loathe/fear.
No, I absolutely would NOT go to a race. In fact, I would never ever put myself in a position where I "had" to do it. STILL doesn't mean that I fear it. Dislike/loathe same thing, just of different degree. STILL doesn't mean that they fear it.
And in fact, you are wrong about that it's just people who loathe it who are complainging about the Master Missions. I actually LOVE PVP, especially twitch based PVP. That doesn't mean that I can't see how messed up this is.
so having allies willing to shoot down the people you are afraid will grief you... doesn't equal more safety.
Compared to the Beta servers? No, it does not equal more safety.
yeh, but there is actually a purpose of deep space and in all reality... 30k is like 10 kills. or if you are good enough, a solo corvette kill.
Yeah, but no one will go there just to PVP, which was the idea here. They will go to Kessel for their PVP needs instead.
they will, maybe not right now, at launch or within the first coupla months, but expect much more content in space than this... heck they say they will be adding more missions within the first few weeks anyway.
Don't count on it. And even if they would add more content, there is no chance they can add it fast enough to meet the demand. Let's face it: JTL should have been shipped with as much content as there is mandatory missions. It ships with no content, save Deep Space.
not really, once this thing launches, some people could easily get ships in that caliber. besides, thinking about it strafing, joust runs are actually a tad more hard to defend against than standard rolling tactics.
Yeah, I dare you to find a TIE fighter and fit it with components that can match a Tier 4 TIE fighter. Then try a Z95. Or heck, even try an A-wing. You can never fit those with components of the same caliber as the NPC ships. (Well, unless you use the "pre mass-nerf" components that's still around on Spacebeta1).
I agree, joust runs are harder to defend against, but that doesn't mean that the AI got better. In fact, if anything they became lobotomized since they leave themselves completely open for a counter attack. However, the counter attacks are weak enough for the NPC ships to not care. No, bring back the old AI, but improve that slightly. This is just boring, and that's not a good verdict on dogfighting.
called skill. as in who is moving the joystick skill. as in shoot better and shoot faster.
Shoot faster, huh? You do realize that the rate of fire depends on numerical data on your components? And better? Yes, it's easy to shoot better than the NPC ships, but since they can take a lot more than PC ships, they will more often than not win that fight.
I will admit that low tier AI seems a bit better, but Tier 4 and 5 is completely out of whack because of this change.
that's what you get for thinking. they say they are putting it to a live test server... valcyn if i remember correctly. No one else can test it but QA, but they will no doubt patch from there and that is what we get on live.
Umm... That's code that needs to be in at JTL release and that needs to be tested by players first. Tier 4 and 5 craft will be in the game from the start, so they need to have a working AI for that.
carebear refers to people who don't pvp for one reason or another. there is a distinct difference between pvpers and griefers... the main one being that you don't have to pvp to grief.
... And by PVP haters, "griefers" might be a term used to describe PVPers. That's still just a stereotype, same with "carebear".
... And yet again you prove why these missions are such a bad idea...
not really, its the same thing that the people who pvp do on the ground right now anyway... the point is that with this expansion it is wide open for anyone to compete. no templates. no looted weapons. just player skill. more people will want to pvp in the expansion than they do currently on the ground and that means that they are all going to hit master... and that means that if they stray into our area before then... we will shoot them down.
And where in this statement do you prove that these missions are NOT a bad idea?
so yes... take the missions out of the zone. we don't want it. we want freedom to know that if you enter this zone you are open for pvp... so that you know you are an open target as soon as you hyper in. get everyone else out until they feel they can grow the stones to go and play with the big boys.
Exactly, although your attitude still needs improvement.
Vicotnik
Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:15 pm
#87
Cuality wrote:
no... they hate pvp. they don't dislike it. they hate it. whether it be from the possibility of griefers. or the possibility of losing. someone who dislikes something will not be that upset if they had to do it. i dislike onions, but i'll eat them if i had to. sure i wouldn't want to, but i still would. the people in these threads dispise and hate pvp. Now i know there are some people out there who do dislike it... but they aren't in these posts. they see the change and say: ok... so i may have to pvp, no big deal, i mean, i only dislike pvp, its not like i hate it.
So would you willingly put yourself in a position where you would have to eat onions. Or would you try to make sure that is changed? Ignore manners for a second (who would refuse to eat onions if they were offered that in a dinner, for instance). If the change would not hurt anyone, would you argue for it? If you wouldn't, well... Heh... Then you don't dislike onions. Same thing here. Besides: Not everyone arguing for this change hate PVP. Some actually like it.
again comes down to player skill. a smart pilot always watches his ass... and if he can't he gets someone who can... or he dies... that is the law of flight combat, not just this game. a smart pilot will never put himself in a position where he is open and vulnerable to a shot up the tailpipe.
Heh... So what you are saying here is that a smart pilot would never enter Kessel? Good call.
how much harder would it be on live? you can tell when someone is zeroing in on you and disengage from what you are trying to kill or evade like a madman. not to mention if you go in with the knowledge there are other people out there and a group of like 10 people... and task someone to keep an eye on all player craft. it's easy to get the drop on one player. 10 people is a whole different story.
Much, much, much harder. On beta, you only had two or three people to keep track of. On live, you will havea higher number than that in your immediate vicinity to keep track of. This, together with keeping focus on the mission objective, will make it much, much harder. People will show up on your radar at a distance of 4-5km. That's a distance that's easily crossed in no time with high end ships. Even if you manage to tell when someone were zeroing in on you, and even if you kill them, they can just repair and hyper back to Kessel. Sooner or later, they WILL get you.
Slarus
Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:18 pm
#88
Well.....if you're to the point where you're knocking on the master box, I'd liketo believe that you have a great ship and have your pilot skills honed to a point where you should be able to survive in the tough space sectors for a while. If that's not the case, and you don't like PvP then just stick with pilot 4 4 4 4 and live happy in non-PvP sectors or on the ground.
It's not a question of your skills, so much as how many around you al also pilot 4444 or better? Can you dodge 1, 3, 5, 20 ships, how much will be too much for any player?
As time goes on, more PvP campers will be there intercepting and gangin up on those trying to get thier Master box, it will get harder and harder, Master Pilot will be for elite of elites, a reward for greedy powergamers only, just like the Firespray and AV-21, only for powergamers.
Cuality
Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:25 pm
#89
Vicotnik wrote:
Cuality wrote:
this is an aspect of the game that we play. in all honesty... when you are flying around, it's hard to tell between pvp and pve. Now you say you don't like formula one racing... but lets say that you had to go to a race. would you still go? or do you absolutely loathe it? the people who are complaining about this are not people who just dislike pvp but rather loathe it... do remember fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate. sure it's a cliched line but it runs together with this one. i have yet to see one of the pve'rs say: well, i don't like to pvp but i guess if i have to just this once to master my box, i could work with that... no its: PvPers are griefers and they are FORCING us to pvp. you can't force someone who dislikes something... you can only force people who hate/despise/loathe/fear.
No, I absolutely would NOT go to a race. In fact, I would never ever put myself in a position where I "had" to do it. STILL doesn't mean that I fear it. Dislike/loathe same thing, just of different degree. STILL doesn't mean that they fear it.
Dislike and loathe are totally different things. Loathe = hate. hate = fear. simply as that.
And in fact, you are wrong about that it's just people who loathe it who are complainging about the Master Missions. I actually LOVE PVP, especially twitch based PVP. That doesn't mean that I can't see how messed up this is.
so... why are we having this conversation? i have already complained about it enough. take them out. take them out. i have not said to keep them in.
so having allies willing to shoot down the people you are afraid will grief you... doesn't equal more safety.
Compared to the Beta servers? No, it does not equal more safety.
hmmm... so if you enter kessel as a rebel and there are 25 rebel ships flying around and 3 imp ships... would you feel safer?
yeh, but there is actually a purpose of deep space and in all reality... 30k is like 10 kills. or if you are good enough, a solo corvette kill.
Yeah, but no one will go there just to PVP, which was the idea here. They will go to Kessel for their PVP needs instead.
yes... the people who just want to pvp will go to kessel. the ones that want to feel like they are doing something worthwhile will go into deep space and try to take out the SD our the station. its the difference between the people who park outside a spaceport waiting for overts and those that base raid.
they will, maybe not right now, at launch or within the first coupla months, but expect much more content in space than this... heck they say they will be adding more missions within the first few weeks anyway.
Don't count on it. And even if they would add more content, there is no chance they can add it fast enough to meet the demand. Let's face it: JTL should have been shipped with as much content as there is mandatory missions. It ships with no content, save Deep Space.
i would count the missions as content. it is more involving than just killing random critters. sure, its a stretch, but the missions are still content...
not really, once this thing launches, some people could easily get ships in that caliber. besides, thinking about it strafing, joust runs are actually a tad more hard to defend against than standard rolling tactics.
Yeah, I dare you to find a TIE fighter and fit it with components that can match a Tier 4 TIE fighter. Then try a Z95. Or heck, even try an A-wing. You can never fit those with components of the same caliber as the NPC ships. (Well, unless you use the "pre mass-nerf" components that's still around on Spacebeta1).
easily... with the proper resources and a few "tweaks" you can keep up. in fact, my interceptor right now can keep with the tier 4 ships.
I agree, joust runs are harder to defend against, but that doesn't mean that the AI got better. In fact, if anything they became lobotomized since they leave themselves completely open for a counter attack. However, the counter attacks are weak enough for the NPC ships to not care. No, bring back the old AI, but improve that slightly. This is just boring, and that's not a good verdict on dogfighting.
actually, the lutwaffe used the doctrine of jousting in their dogfights. too bad they still lost over britain... but they sure tore it up through russia and when the RAF and USAF came in. I think they should have a mixture of both that would react to how the player fights.
called skill. as in who is moving the joystick skill. as in shoot better and shoot faster.
Shoot faster, huh? You do realize that the rate of fire depends on numerical data on your components? And better? Yes, it's easy to shoot better than the NPC ships, but since they can take a lot more than PC ships, they will more often than not win that fight.
yes... learning to shoot while evading is a hard skill to teach. I still haven't lost to an NPC. even today.
I will admit that low tier AI seems a bit better, but Tier 4 and 5 is completely out of whack because of this change.
that's what you get for thinking. they say they are putting it to a live test server... valcyn if i remember correctly. No one else can test it but QA, but they will no doubt patch from there and that is what we get on live.
Umm... That's code that needs to be in at JTL release and that needs to be tested by players first. Tier 4 and 5 craft will be in the game from the start, so they need to have a working AI for that.
no... the players were there to simulate what a full server could do and to allow players to break them. it is the QA's job to test the game... not the players. We were there for content, mission and various bugs that the QA team couldn't do without a mass of people.
carebear refers to people who don't pvp for one reason or another. there is a distinct difference between pvpers and griefers... the main one being that you don't have to pvp to grief.
... And by PVP haters, "griefers" might be a term used to describe PVPers. That's still just a stereotype, same with "carebear".
fine... we'll call them pve'ers... or those who hate to pvp... or fear it.
... And yet again you prove why these missions are such a bad idea...
not really, its the same thing that the people who pvp do on the ground right now anyway... the point is that with this expansion it is wide open for anyone to compete. no templates. no looted weapons. just player skill. more people will want to pvp in the expansion than they do currently on the ground and that means that they are all going to hit master... and that means that if they stray into our area before then... we will shoot them down.
And where in this statement do you prove that these missions are NOT a bad idea?
where in your statement do you prove that it is a bad idea?
so yes... take the missions out of the zone. we don't want it. we want freedom to know that if you enter this zone you are open for pvp... so that you know you are an open target as soon as you hyper in. get everyone else out until they feel they can grow the stones to go and play with the big boys.
Exactly, although your attitude still needs improvement.
i didn't know i was trying to impress anyone out there... miss manners would be so ashamed of me.
Vicotnik
Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:45 pm
#90
Cuality wrote:
No, I absolutely would NOT go to a race. In fact, I would never ever put myself in a position where I "had" to do it. STILL doesn't mean that I fear it. Dislike/loathe same thing, just of different degree. STILL doesn't mean that they fear it.
Dislike and loathe are totally different things. Loathe = hate. hate = fear. simply as that.
Lol! You are just getting silly now. If you dislike something to thedegree of hating or loathing them, does that mean you would fear them? No. If you would find onions to be the most loathsome, disgusting edible thing ever, would you fear them? Of course not.
so... why are we having this conversation? i have already complained about it enough. take them out. take them out. i have not said to keep them in.
Beats me. However, you aren't exactly helping when you're here arguing that people are "afraid of PVP".
hmmm... so if you enter kessel as a rebel and there are 25 rebel ships flying around and 3 imp ships... would you feel safer?
Not safer than when I entered Kessel and there was just one imperial there, no. Besides. Shall those 3 imperials feel safer?
yes... the people who just want to pvp will go to kessel. the ones that want to feel like they are doing something worthwhile will go into deep space and try to take out the SD our the station. its the difference between the people who park outside a spaceport waiting for overts and those that base raid.
Yes, but this still means that the PVP (master)population in Kessel will be higher than in Deep Space.
i would count the missions as content. it is more involving than just killing random critters. sure, its a stretch, but the missions are still content...
It's a big stretch, that's for sure.
Yeah, I dare you to find a TIE fighter and fit it with components that can match a Tier 4 TIE fighter. Then try a Z95. Or heck, even try an A-wing. You can never fit those with components of the same caliber as the NPC ships. (Well, unless you use the "pre mass-nerf" components that's still around on Spacebeta1).
easily... with the proper resources and a few "tweaks" you can keep up. in fact, my interceptor right now can keep with the tier 4 ships.
I'll call BS on that one. Sure, your engines might keep up, but can your shields and other weapons keep up?
Lets take the A-wing I crafted today as an example. With the atop engine, and a decent reactor there isn't much space left for shields or weapons. So the choice now is: Do I want strong shields and weak weapons, strong weapons or a weak shield, or a balance? You can never ever have an A-wing that is as powerful as an NPC one of the appropriate Tier. Never ever. In fact, with a top crafted engine, an A-wing won't even keep up with NPC ships. With engine overload it might, but not in its base form.
Now take the TIE fighter as an example. The TIE/ln has what? 30k mass, or something like that? Try to fit that one with components equal to NPC TIEs at tier 4. You can't. Do the same with the Z-95 or Scyk. With their 10k mass they can barely even fit level 1 components.
actually, the lutwaffe used the doctrine of jousting in their dogfights. too bad they still lost over britain... but they sure tore it up through russia and when the RAF and USAF came in. I think they should have a mixture of both that would react to how the player fights.
Exactly. ALL we have now is jousting. Even an NPC that is far, faaaar, faaaaaaar inferior than you will attack you outright. They don't even try to maneuver, just attack and turn, attack and turn. This is not AI, it's just A.
called skill. as in who is moving the joystick skill. as in shoot better and shoot faster.
yes... learning to shoot while evading is a hard skill to teach. I still haven't lost to an NPC. even today.
Good for you.
I will admit that low tier AI seems a bit better, but Tier 4 and 5 is completely out of whack because of this change.
that's what you get for thinking. they say they are putting it to a live test server... valcyn if i remember correctly. No one else can test it but QA, but they will no doubt patch from there and that is what we get on live.
no... the players were there to simulate what a full server could do and to allow players to break them. it is the QA's job to test the game... not the players. We were there for content, mission and various bugs that the QA team couldn't do without a mass of people.
Uh, no. You don't do beta tests just for stress tests. If that were the case, why the did they need us to post feedback?
where in your statement do you prove that it is a bad idea?
I have been doing that for several posts now. Pay attention.
i didn't know i was trying to impress anyone out there... miss manners would be so ashamed of me.
Yup.
Vicotnik
Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:26 am
#91
Cuality wrote:
That's why you always have to be watching your rear... or have a friend do it. What is it... the "k" key or the "L" key? the one that targets the nearest overt player craft? Having someone on yer 6 keeping the buzzards away is the most important thing to remember... if you want to solo something... this is not the place to do it, for very different reasons than the ground game.
Yeah, good luck. With the speed high end ships are going, and the fact that you and your friendswill be busy fighting a Corvette and two-three gunboats + escorts. Good luck!
Who has said anything about soloing these missions? That's not the issue here! In fact, it's pretty much impossible to solo the Corvette mission already, it still would be if they moved it to another system.
I'm scared of crafting. People are worried about being ganked, they find that they don't like being on the losing end. People don't like it when others beat them in something. Especially if they get swamped hard and fast. The original poster and his fellow non-PvPers are afraid of being "ganked"... key word... afraid... they don't want those l33t kiddies flying up behind them and blowing them back into the next zone. Also, I fight against any and all that come against me or my faction... and everyone else should stay away.
Stop with the "afraid" bs. Stereotypes work both ways. People are not "scared", they just don't enjoy it. Get that through your head. Also, why would anyone want to put themselves in a possition where a single player can absolutely ruin their work for the last 3-6 hours?
Sorry, don't really have sympathy for people who feel that all PvP'ers are l33t kids who's only goal is to grief you. Griefers are out there... but you will hardly ever find them in a situation where things are even. The griefers will be the ones who fly after you and try to ram you... not the ones who hunt you in the pvp zones where they have an equal chance of being killed by the person they are attacking. Heck, i have killed at least 5 people who got the first shot on me in beta... its not impossible to do... you just have know what you are doing and what is going on around you.
Yes, we all know that not all PVPers are l33t kiddoes. However we all also know that griefers exist, and we all know where they will hang out in Kessel.
I already said that. This was a friendly hint for the people who DO want to pvp out there. there are much more people who will be fighting in space than on the ground.
Yes, there are more people who will be fighting in space. This just makes it more moronic that a PVE mission is placed in PVP space. No one have yet been able to answer me this: Why is this such a good idea? Why do people seem to think that it is a good idea to make sure people who hate PVP have to do it?
Is it to promote PVP? Give easy targets to PVPers? Promote griefing?