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Thread: To those who feel that the unwilling should be forced into PvP to master Pilot....
Not the players are different, the PvP is different. I can log into UT2004pvp as long as I want with total equal chars and thats it. InSWG you haveto do (work) a lot more to be able to do it. Andspare time is limited,imo thats the main reason why ppl dont like it. If ships would not decay and and all components would be equal, so that realy just the twiched skills count, and we would not get penaltys that we have to pay for with our time (which is what we invest in this game) then I would say: yes make everyone perma overt and space a pvp thing. But I want to have fun. There is a reason why I still dont try to become Jedi, and I was realy looking forward to become a pilot. Maybe they should insert the jedi starfighters and make a jedi pilot profession and leave all the forced pvp to them.
Faraed wrote:
So dont give me that, "mmo players are different," argument, because they arent.
Vicotnik wrote:
Vegitaa wrote:
Ground based PvP is totally borked. For that matter the whole combat system is a bit.. well.. kinda boring at the moment. But, as an MMO it's to be expected. Get buffed, join group, target enemy, hit some function keys, done.
Agreed.
The difference I like is that in space you have to actually get the other guy under your sights. Sure, there's some groovey little abilities but all in all it still comes down to who can get the most rounds on target. Now that may mean that only the best pilots end up mastering the Ace title. Isn't that the way it should be? Shouldn't an "ACE" be considered one of the best of the best?
So? If you're not into PVP, this will still not make you interested. It's not about how the PVP system is in JTL, the fact is that it's not for everyone, nor should it be. It can't even be for everyone, since I'm sure there are people out there who would prefer the RPG turn based system of the ground game. And why can't "the best" be a PVE pilot? What's stopping that?
PVP != Challenge. If this statement was false, the only challenge you could ever find in ANY game would be PVP.
No FRS exploits to get there, no Geno cave spawns to grind, just your skills against mine. To me that is the best addition they have made to this game. Finally you won't see the guy with the best armour or stacking template winning. It's going to be about how well you fly. If you can't rack up enough kills to warrant the title of "ACE" then well, it's because you're not one.
Funny though, for the master missions, player kills don't even count. While the addition might be the best addition ever for you, it will absolutely be the worst for someone who doesn't like PVP. You need to look at this without your own eyes for a bit. I myself actually like PVP, and in JTL it is also fun (compared to the ground game), that doesn't mean that I can't see how messed up this is. While we'll both enjoy the PVP system, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be optional. There are people out there who just don't wanna participate, but they still want the most out of their expansion. (which they are entitled to)
In no way is this a flame or boast. Lord knows it will take anyone a longtime before they will be able to master it anyway. Last round of beta I don't think there were any Ace's and if there were it was very few. I have faith in my piloting skills because I have 12 years of flight sim exp and those are the types of online games I used to play (still do Aces High, WW2 online...). For the first time in over a year the GCW is beginning to heat up again. Now if they could make it so you can land/launch your ship in the hanger of a faction base... they could finally make those worth having again.
There were plenty of aces at the last round of beta. I was one of them, and I knew at least three more. We'll see our first masters in just a few weeks, if not sooner.
I don't think that the GCW will really heat up again, not with JTL. There is still no reason to fight at all, just a slightly better PVP system. How can we get people interested to fight when there is just no point to it? Also, don't expect the GCW to heat up because of the Master missions, if anything, these will hurt PVP by making the chasm between PVE and PVP players bigger.
I know this is probably just going to be like everything else in SWG. People will complain because they can't get to the top easily. I believe it gives us something to shoot for though. I've been anticipating JTL because it does breathe new life into the GCW. Also having been a part of the Beta PVP weekend I can tell you this... things are not as bad as this thread leads you to believe.
The PVP weekend didn't quite do justice to how PVP in JTL is. We had pretty much dev-fabricated ships with dev-fabricated weapons and components. The real PVP was more like the PVP you could face in Kessel after the weekend, when the server was wiped again. Still, even that isn't a fair judgement since the developers, at a rather strange whim, decided to change the mass system just a few days before the beta ended. The fact is that the PVP system has not been thorougly tested at all because of this and the ever changing flight model.
Message Edited by Faraed on 10-28-2004 01:56 PM
Faraed wrote:
The only half valid argument you have in there is that the majority of Bria's players dont write on the boards. But since the boards are the only point of reference and common communication ground we have access to, your argument becomes irrelevant. You base your opinions and gain your support off of the very people posting on the same boards.
atytula wrote:
I am not in the position that people that don't want to PvP shouldn't have to. But I am for providing additional content to PvPers and to make an incentive to PvP. I am guessing that those that want master pilot missions in PvP zones are looking at it from this point. If you are a master pilot, then you have beaten the hardest foes, and this is a human player.
Now, I don't want to see Master Pilot being limited in this fashion, but I wouldn't mind if they had a separate pilot profession that gives you additional perks but be based on PvP rating. Kind of like a faction system, but you have to PvP to get it. This would not force people to PvP but encourage them. But then again, people will look at it as forcing them to PvP since they would be forced to PvP to get the perks. But then, I could say I am being forced to grind to get Jedi.
Exactly. There is nothing wrong with rewarding people for PVP. It is, however, wrong to make the core of the expansion require people to PVP to progress. It would not have been wrong if the JTL expansion had been promoted as a PVP expansion, however.
Faraed wrote:
Thats the flaw in your thinking. As in real life you are not entitled to everything if you are not willing to forgoe the risks to attain it. Thats what this game is missing. Too many people in this game have this self-centered, greedy opinion that everyone in this game should have access to everything all the time and no one should be forced to do anything they dont want to do to achieve certain things. Its a ridiculous and unrealistic dream and unfortunately the devs of this game listen too much to the community and that is why the ground game sucks now and SWG is waaaaaay too easy.
Are you not getting this at all? Is it just passing by you without you taking any notice of it?
PVP != Challenge. PVP != risk. While PVP might add challenge and risk, it is not the way to go when it will alienate a big part of the population. It is absolutely not the way to go when you can do it without alienating anyone!
Certain things in this game need to require you to perform and do certain things. If you dont like doing them and are unwilling, then you dont get the reward. Those who are willing to do them, will get the reward. You wanna be a master pilot? THen fullfill the requirements. IF you want it bad enough, this wont stop you and wow, what a revelation................
STOP LOOKING AT THIS WITH YOUR OWN EYES FOR JUST ONE SECOND.
YOU MAY ACTUALLY FEEL A SENSE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT IN THIS GAME FOR ONCE!!!!!!
Wrong. You may feel a sense of accomplishment. I may feel a sense of accomplishment. PEOPLE WHO HATE PVP WILL FEEL NOTHING BUT RESENTMENT THAT THEY HAD TO DO THIS. Stop looking at this with your own eyes and views for just one second.
I havent felt a sense of accomplishment in this game in like 10 months. Everything htat is supposed to be difficult is easy and attainable by ANYONE with little to no effort..........
Krayts = Soloable
Rancors = Farmed daily by hundreds of noob players for xp
Geo Cave = Jedi farmland, geo loot now worthless.
Corvette = Soloable except for the assasination mission. Av-21's now farmed out by the dozen.
DWB = The only other challenge left in the game.
And this has what to do with PVP? This is all due to a broken game system, has nothing to do with PVP.
PVP = Destroyed by directionless patching of the game over the course of a year.
PVP would have been destroyed anyway. There is just nothing to fight over.
Vicotnik wrote:
atytula wrote:
I am not in the position that people that don't want to PvP shouldn't have to. But I am for providing additional content to PvPers and to make an incentive to PvP. I am guessing that those that want master pilot missions in PvP zones are looking at it from this point. If you are a master pilot, then you have beaten the hardest foes, and this is a human player.
Now, I don't want to see Master Pilot being limited in this fashion, but I wouldn't mind if they had a separate pilot profession that gives you additional perks but be based on PvP rating. Kind of like a faction system, but you have to PvP to get it. This would not force people to PvP but encourage them. But then again, people will look at it as forcing them to PvP since they would be forced to PvP to get the perks. But then, I could say I am being forced to grind to get Jedi.
Exactly. There is nothing wrong with rewarding people for PVP. It is, however, wrong to make the core of the expansion require people to PVP to progress. It would not have been wrong if the JTL expansion had been promoted as a PVP expansion, however.
Almightyrastus wrote:
Exactly, PvP is an essential part of this game due to the very nature of the civil war. PvP should not, however, be a forced part of getting to somewhere in the game. PvP should be a consensual part of this game not an enforce part for those who don't want to engage in the war. I for one will be taking privateer pilot so there will be nothing to do with the civil war for me at all.
Privateer pilots had it the worst last I checked. If I remember correctly, in Kessel if you're Rebel or Imperial you still can't attack people in your faction. But Privateers are open to attack from anyone, including other Privateers.
This may have changed, but I don't know.
Falin
Faraed wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:
atytula wrote:
I am not in the position that people that don't want to PvP shouldn't have to. But I am for providing additional content to PvPers and to make an incentive to PvP. I am guessing that those that want master pilot missions in PvP zones are looking at it from this point. If you are a master pilot, then you have beaten the hardest foes, and this is a human player.
Now, I don't want to see Master Pilot being limited in this fashion, but I wouldn't mind if they had a separate pilot profession that gives you additional perks but be based on PvP rating. Kind of like a faction system, but you have to PvP to get it. This would not force people to PvP but encourage them. But then again, people will look at it as forcing them to PvP since they would be forced to PvP to get the perks. But then, I could say I am being forced to grind to get Jedi.
Exactly. There is nothing wrong with rewarding people for PVP. It is, however, wrong to make the core of the expansion require people to PVP to progress. It would not have been wrong if the JTL expansion had been promoted as a PVP expansion, however.
Vicotnik, you are missing his point. It doesnt matter, people are going to complain anyway. Its never going to end, its a vicious circle.
NO matter what you give the PVP'ers to reward them, the non-pvpers are going to complain. They are going to claim that they are being forced into pvp to get whatever perk they give the pvp'ers. Its a never ending cycle. Thats why you have to draw the line somewhere and tell the non-pvpers just to shut up and live with it. Because if you dont, they are just going to find the next thing to complain about when the PVP'ers are rewarded elsewhere.
If you make the pvpers stronger than the non-pvp'ers by rewarding them in any fashion, the non-pvp'ers are going to be mad and claim it isnt fair because they pay $15 a month too, and so on and so forth. Ive been watching it happen for over a year now in one form or another. AT some point you just gotta say no and people gotta realise that not everything is going to be fair and if they want certain perks or rewards, they gotta sacrifice to get em.
And I already asked you, why do you feel the need to be rewarded at all? I thought that PvP was all about the challenge and risk of going against other players, and that without PvP everything gets boring. Isn't that in itself the reward for being a PvPer? Seems to me that that's been a central theme in your posts in this thread. Why do you feel that you deserve something more than someone who likes to play differently than you?
Falin
Vicotnik wrote:
Faraed wrote:
Thats the flaw in your thinking. As in real life you are not entitled to everything if you are not willing to forgoe the risks to attain it. Thats what this game is missing. Too many people in this game have this self-centered, greedy opinion that everyone in this game should have access to everything all the time and no one should be forced to do anything they dont want to do to achieve certain things. Its a ridiculous and unrealistic dream and unfortunately the devs of this game listen too much to the community and that is why the ground game sucks now and SWG is waaaaaay too easy.
Are you not getting this at all? Is it just passing by you without you taking any notice of it?
PVP != Challenge. PVP != risk. While PVP might add challenge and risk, it is not the way to go when it will alienate a big part of the population. It is absolutely not the way to go when you can do it without alienating anyone!
Certain things in this game need to require you to perform and do certain things. If you dont like doing them and are unwilling, then you dont get the reward. Those who are willing to do them, will get the reward. You wanna be a master pilot? THen fullfill the requirements. IF you want it bad enough, this wont stop you and wow, what a revelation................
STOP LOOKING AT THIS WITH YOUR OWN EYES FOR JUST ONE SECOND.
YOU MAY ACTUALLY FEEL A SENSE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT IN THIS GAME FOR ONCE!!!!!!
Wrong. You may feel a sense of accomplishment. I may feel a sense of accomplishment. PEOPLE WHO HATE PVP WILL FEEL NOTHING BUT RESENTMENT THAT THEY HAD TO DO THIS. Stop looking at this with your own eyes and views for just one second.
I havent felt a sense of accomplishment in this game in like 10 months. Everything htat is supposed to be difficult is easy and attainable by ANYONE with little to no effort..........
Krayts = Soloable
Rancors = Farmed daily by hundreds of noob players for xp
Geo Cave = Jedi farmland, geo loot now worthless.
Corvette = Soloable except for the assasination mission. Av-21's now farmed out by the dozen.
DWB = The only other challenge left in the game.
And this has what to do with PVP? This is all due to a broken game system, has nothing to do with PVP.
PVP = Destroyed by directionless patching of the game over the course of a year.
PVP would have been destroyed anyway. There is just nothing to fight over.
Im not missing any of your points, they just dont hold any water. Your points are all based on opinion.
If this is not the way to go, and you are so intelligent. Why dont you put some of that intelligence to use for once and try suggesting and gaining support for some of YOUR great ideas. I mean, you do have some right? You sure do seem to know which direction is the wrong direction to go in, so surely you must know what the correct direction to go would be. Why dont you try suggesting some of those and use your intelligence in a positive way rather than in a negative one by suggesting some actual ideas instead of just knocking their attempts to try something new?
Like I said in my original posts. THis might not be the best challenge and reward system in the world, but atleast its a step in the right direction. ATleast its a sign that they are looking to add some diversity to this game.
Faraed wrote:
FalinMor wrote:
Faraed wrote:
Do you wnat to know why your theory here doesnt work out? I'll tell you why.
PVP in this game drastically needs some sort of a reward. PERIOD. Any kind of a reward would suffice right now. One thing you gotta understand, as much as you wish it werent so, this game is designed for PVP. It is the focal point of the game. This is a game about a civil war, not the extermination of critters in the landscape. The reason that civil war isnt raging is due to lack of reward. Whatever reward they put in the game must be some sort of high level, highly coveted reward for it to serve its purpose. There must be some sort of loss vs gain system here. Participants feel the gain, non-participants feel the loss or restriction of access.
So lets assume for a second that they reverse this little change you guys want and take master missions out of the pvp zone and allow everyone to master pilot without engaging in pvp. They will be forced to eventually implement another reward of some sorts for pvp'ers. You know what will happen then?
All of these people who whine and complain about not wanting to PVP are going to whine and complain that they want what the PVP'ers have, but they dont feel they should be "forced to pvp" to get it. Its a never ending cycle. The line has to be drawn somewhere between what the devs will listen to and what they wont. Its this kind of attitude that leads to lack of high end content in this game. Everything cant be open to everyone. Certain items, milestones and accomplishements have to be restricted to certain types of gameplay for them to be accurate rewards. You want the master pilot reward? Then fulfill the requirements whether you like them, or not because THAT IS WHAT ACHIEVEMENT IS ALL ABOUT.
Again I say, absolutely untrue. This game was absolutely NOT designed with PvP as the focal point. It was not.
And now I have to ask: why do you see the ability of people who like PvP to kill people who don't like PvP as a reward? In the current system, you're not "rewarding the PvPer" by giving them a Master box. You're making people do things they hate in order to get it. It makes no sense.
Besides, after seeing all this stuff about "challenge" and whatnot, why all this talk about rewards? I thought the challenge WAS the reward. At least, that's how I've always felt about it. What other reward is needed? PvPers are the "ultimate gamers" after all, aren't they? At least, that's what so many claim.
Falin
How can you argue that? Its totally obvious that this game was designed with PVP as the focal point. Its a game about a civil war. A civil war that the players are supposed to become involved in and fight eachother. Every system in this game is somehow tied into the GCW. To argue anything less is either ignorance or wishful thinking and I dont think you are ignorant.
In the current system you are rewarding the PVPer by granting him something that the non-pvper cant have unless hes willing to go into the pvp zone and risk getting involved in some pvp. And who's to say they hate it in the first place when they havent even tried it yet? I mean, these guys like to fly planes and kill people in other games like Battlefield 1942 and Battlefront, why not in SWG? JTL is an fps, dont forget that.
My argument about challenge obviously went right over your head. My argument about challenge basically stated that there needs to be things in this game to make it more difficult and rewarding. This achieves both. Granted its not the best of rewards for PVP'ers, but its a step in the right direction.
No, it's not. At all. It was designed with the GCW as ONE of the focal points... and the GCW is not all about PvP. And no, your argument did not go over my head at all. You just seem to lack the ability to realize that different people have different ideas of what constitutes "challenge" and "reward".
Falin
Faraed wrote:
Im not missing any of your points, they just dont hold any water. Your points are all based on opinion.
Like I said in my original posts. THis might not be the best challenge and reward system in the world, but atleast its a step in the right direction. ATleast its a sign that they are looking to add some diversity to this game.
Put/kettle/black. Your entire stance on this issue revolves around the fact that YOU find something fun/challenging and think everyone else should find it fun/challenging too.
And anyone with any grasp of both gaming and real-world history knows that FORCING diversity is about the worst thing you can do, and only ends in conflict.
Falin
Message Edited by FalinMor on 10-28-2004 02:12 PM
FalinMor wrote:
I think we're getting away from the root of the issue here, though... but it doesn't really matter at this point.
Falin
It DOES matter. Keep the torch alive! 
Most times, I play this MMORPG to play WITH other players, not AGAINST them. If I choose to play against other players, I want it to be at a time and place of my choosing.
As far as I'm concerned, the PvP and PvE aspects of SWG are two totally different games, and I don't like being shifted from one to the other involuntarily.
How would you, being in a PvP mood, like it if your PvP target got to populate his base with (Mandalorians, Acklays, Nightsister Elders, Gorax, DJM, etc)? Now when you want to PvP, you haveto deal with major PvE baddies. This is exactly how I view forced PvP.
Message Edited by lund0529 on 10-28-2004 04:13 PM