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Thread: Unbalanced
I enjoy the player economy, but honestly I enjoy it more because I am in a guild that can provide most of my needs without having to pay the outrageous prices many folks charge because of the hyper inflation caused by the massive credit and other item duping that still wreaks havoc on the server economy to this day. If I had to buy my own stuff at current market prices I'd be broke. I don't mind looted schems all that much as I have acess to crafters who will make things for me at cost. I know others who aren't as connected hate them because they get held up by some greedy crafters. I want to work together with crafters as well, but hearing them complain that they can't compete in combat or go the same places a dedicated combat character can go is silly. I can't craft anything anymore since they stole crafting from CMs and gave it to BEs. Do I complain about that? No I know my role and accept it. Some folks want to be able to do everything.
I quoted you because I wanted to highlight my point that one of the common problems with the economy on servers and the general attitude towards crafters is that they are either rich or stupid.
If you think that me not jacking up my prices or even the fact that I keep them as low as I feel I can means that I'm doing something wrong, then I guess I am.
My entire post was not directed at you, and my quoting of your previous post was more of a tool that I used to show what I was talking about
The inability to place harvesters was an example to highlight how crafters have been put at even more of a disadvantage with the CU. I understand the comments saying the CU is a Combat Upgrade not Crafting Upgrade, but an integral part of combat happens to be the weapons and armor that is used. As for those items, from day one players were supposed to be able to get much better ones from player crafting with the exception of a very few rare loot drops. With the CU not only are many crafters (even the best of them) are being outdone by very SIMPLE quest rewards, but they are at a further disadvantage with how they acquire the materials needed to make now subpar wares.
I too provide all of my guildmates with everything I can. It's an unwritten rule for ourus that if you can make it, then you pass it on to the rest of the guild. With that is also the understanding that if a crafter needs certain creature resources or loot drops, the combatants help get them. Guarding the crafters during their harvester runs is something that no player should have to do. It's an often tedious and time consuming effort for crafters and combatants would be bored to LD with it.
Furthermore, I don't see many complaining they can't compete in combat. The old system was screwey that way and I did not agree with it either. However, crafters do need an alternative for protection. That is not the point of the argument here though, it is just a point to make to highlight what recent changes have done to those professions.
It really seems like we have gone from one side of the spectrum to the other when the CU was supposed to be the thing that put us right in the middle... in the zone so to speak. I love what it's done for combat. I love what it's done for combatants. However, what it has done to crafting and entertainer professions cannot stand for long or they will be scrambling to put inmore quests to make up for all the items that players are no longer crafting and a way to heal battle fatigue since players are no longer dancing or playing music. In other words, they stand to lose a large chunk of theprofessions discussedout of shear spite.
Crafters would be greatly appeased by bringing crafted weapon statistics up to the level of quest granted ones. That in turn would benefit the combatants. I'm not saying the greedy ones would go away, but the same ones who are staying the course now will be there to provide you with your weapons and armor then. If people don't know who they are, then they need to do some shopping because they're always out there.
I understand what you'resaying about quest items. They should be top of the line, but when crafters, using the best resources and enhancements have a really tough time getting anywhere near the same stats, then I do see a problem. I'm not saying a noob crafter should be able to craft the same as the reward, but the guys who go all out to provide a quality product should at least be able to compete with it.
As it is now, using krayt tissues and getting some nice experimentation results, I cannot compete with the rewards. Many of the rewards are not even craftable by WSs and those are some of the best ones in the game. In my business I have chosen to experiment the SAC down, but many people will not immediately see the benefit in it. If, through using enhancements, I could have good damage and still experiment the SAC, and therefore at least come close (not equal) to the quest rewards... well then the problem would be minimal.
The other major problem with all these quest rewards is they they are simply too easy to be giving rewards that are that superior to crafted. Take the carbine recieved on the Ryatt trail. That thing is incredibly easy to get and the first thing I thought when I looked at the stats was "how can I compete with this?" I wouldn't mind it as much if these weapons were limited and a result of a long or more challenging quest, but they're not.
I don't want to eliminate the value of these items,I would just like to remove the further devaluation of player crafted items. Not to mention that a crafter should be able to do a quest in order to learn schematics for those same quest rewards. The RIS certification, IMO, has been the best way to implement an elite schematic in that you have to do something to learn it. You have to choose to go that extra mile instead of either just getting another skill box or looting it from a dungeon.
Message Edited by SmugglinZane on 05-26-2005 07:22 PM
Mor-Dan wrote:
Your loot/quest rewards (weapons) are unbalanced. You changed crafting weapons because you said we were able to create things out of balance, you nerf our abilities, you nerf our resources, and you nerf our system to make everything the same and keep focus in one main area of experimentation at a time. Then you go and drop pistols and rifles 32-dps+ and SAC so low it would require every point of crafting we have to reach, meaning our DPS would 70-80 points lower than the loot guns. That is NOT balance. Your weapons are out of balance because a crafter cannot compete with them.
Nerf quest item and loot or bring up the abilities of the crafter. Give an overall 10-15 point reduction to all weapon SAC costs to give us a chance to at least make something that might be better if the crafter understands their profession. At this point nothing we can make would serve any purpose. It would take krayt tissue with a speed reducer of -2.0 and a dmg rating of 180+ for us to even approach the stats of your pistols and carbines and rifles, so bring base tissue dmg up to 100 and increase speed reducers to a minimum of -1.0. Also give us an enhancer line for barrels and scopes that will allow us to either increase damage, speed, or reduce SAC.
If you want a crafting community, and I mean any kind of a crafting community at all, your crafters must be able to compete with and EXCEED most of the loot in the game, and those that they cannot exceed need to be made non-ADK enabled so they eventually perish and that person must start buying again. You're killing us, DEVs. Maybe all the n00b smiths take our place, but the quality will be terrible because they don't know what they are doing, and they will eventually leave as well when they discover that they cannot make a decent living off the 4-5 weapons sold per day to grinders.
Despite all your efforts, your game is even more unbalanced now than it was Pre-CU. Combat may be "slightly" more balanced, but everything else is out of balance. And I say combat is more balanced with tongue in cheek because Master Defender is WAY out of balance.
this was a good post until you had to say that about defenders.. why would you waste your platform on a tangent rant?
Thats like a US senator making a speech about environmental reforms and then throwing in a plug at the end.. "The Cubs should have won the World Series, but that damn fan had to catch a ball"
Mor-Dan wrote:
Despite all your efforts, your game is even more unbalanced now than it was Pre-CU. Combat may be "slightly" more balanced, but everything else is out of balance. And I say combat is more balanced with tongue in cheek because Master Defender is WAY out of balance.
What would be the point in looting or questing if the crafters can make the exact same or better items? I never understood the point of the useless loot weapons we get or the useless and expensive faction items. The old argument was that it would bankrupt crafters. It became pointless to do any quests or bother with loot other than SEAs as nothing dropped or rewarded was worth anything compared to the simplest crafted items. As a carbineer I find few of the quest rewards compare to my crafted items and basically get things to put on my wall as decorations.
Just to quickly touch the combat part, I am not 100% sure but AFAIK if you are grouped no matter the range you get the grouped level benefits. If that's the case then no one needs to actually even travle to the same planet as you, just group up before you leave.
Anyways like I said I want crafters and combatants to havea good synergist relationship, not a parasitic one where the crafters basically control all the items in the game and there is no incentive to loot anything except components and deal with the hassle of waiting to get something made. I like some looted items and some looted schems, it shouldn't be all one or the other.
SmugglinZane wrote:
I understand what you're saying about quest items. They should be top of the line, but when crafters, using the best resources and enhancements have a really tough time getting anywhere near the same stats, then I do see a problem. I'm not saying a noob crafter should be able to craft the same as the reward, but the guys who go all out to provide a quality product should at least be able to compete with it.
As it is now, using krayt tissues and getting some nice experimentation results, I cannot compete with the rewards. Many of the rewards are not even craftable by WSs and those are some of the best ones in the game. In my business I have chosen to experiment the SAC down, but many people will not immediately see the benefit in it. If, through using enhancements, I could have good damage and still experiment the SAC, and therefore at least come close (not equal) to the quest rewards... well then the problem would be minimal.
The other major problem with all these quest rewards is they they are simply too easy to be giving rewards that are that superior to crafted. Take the carbine recieved on the Ryatt trail. That thing is incredibly easy to get and the first thing I thought when I looked at the stats was "how can I compete with this?" I wouldn't mind it as much if these weapons were limited and a result of a long or more challenging quest, but they're not.
I don't want to eliminate the value of these items, I would just like to remove the further devaluation of player crafted items. Not to mention that a crafter should be able to do a quest in order to learn schematics for those same quest rewards. The RIS certification, IMO, has been the best way to implement an elite schematic in that you have to do something to learn it. You have to choose to go that extra mile instead of either just getting another skill box or looting it from a dungeon.
Message Edited by SmugglinZane on 05-26-2005 07:22 PM
Well the Proton carbine is a bad example, yes it's too easy to get, but also it's only certed to MBH, and although I know there's been an explosion in MMBH post -CU repsecing, it should only be a small part of the community and hardly gamebreaking for the WS. I see that example sited all the time because many of the weapons I've obtained aren't useful to me. Many are certed to specific professions, or not very good. Focusing on the handful that are over powered leads to more nerfing of the value of loot.
I don't play this game to grind, so it really bore me to have nothing to go after when looting. I feel that there's plenty of stuff crafters provide and you don't see me asking for crafters to get nerfed in order to make my game more fun. It still reeks of greed at a certain level.
I'm all for more RIS type quests and adding some looted schems, but there needs to be some finished loot that is worthwhile and doesn't need a trip to a crafter to use. Bottomline, don't ask for nerfs to ruin others fun, ask for boosting your stuff so everyone benefits.
Notch13 wrote:
SmugglinZane wrote:
I understand what you're saying about quest items. They should be top of the line, but when crafters, using the best resources and enhancements have a really tough time getting anywhere near the same stats, then I do see a problem. I'm not saying a noob crafter should be able to craft the same as the reward, but the guys who go all out to provide a quality product should at least be able to compete with it.
As it is now, using krayt tissues and getting some nice experimentation results, I cannot compete with the rewards. Many of the rewards are not even craftable by WSs and those are some of the best ones in the game. In my business I have chosen to experiment the SAC down, but many people will not immediately see the benefit in it. If, through using enhancements, I could have good damage and still experiment the SAC, and therefore at least come close (not equal) to the quest rewards... well then the problem would be minimal.
The other major problem with all these quest rewards is they they are simply too easy to be giving rewards that are that superior to crafted. Take the carbine recieved on the Ryatt trail. That thing is incredibly easy to get and the first thing I thought when I looked at the stats was "how can I compete with this?" I wouldn't mind it as much if these weapons were limited and a result of a long or more challenging quest, but they're not.
I don't want to eliminate the value of these items, I would just like to remove the further devaluation of player crafted items. Not to mention that a crafter should be able to do a quest in order to learn schematics for those same quest rewards. The RIS certification, IMO, has been the best way to implement an elite schematic in that you have to do something to learn it. You have to choose to go that extra mile instead of either just getting another skill box or looting it from a dungeon.
Message Edited by SmugglinZane on 05-26-2005 07:22 PM
Well the Proton carbine is a bad example, yes it's too easy to get, but also it's only certed to MBH, and although I know there's been an explosion in MMBH post -CU repsecing, it should only be a small part of the community and hardly gamebreaking for the WS. I see that example sited all the time because many of the weapons I've obtained aren't useful to me. Many are certed to specific professions, or not very good. Focusing on the handful that are over powered leads to more nerfing of the value of loot.
I don't play this game to grind, so it really bore me to have nothing to go after when looting. I feel that there's plenty of stuff crafters provide and you don't see me asking for crafters to get nerfed in order to make my game more fun. It still reeks of greed at a certain level.
I'm all for more RIS type quests and adding some looted schems, but there needs to be some finished loot that is worthwhile and doesn't need a trip to a crafter to use. Bottomline, don't ask for nerfs to ruin others fun, ask for boosting your stuff so everyone benefits.
I dont think we disagree that quest rewards should indeed be good, but why take away content for a group of players to provide it to others.
Why not let quest rewards be Clothing or armour attachements or perhaps some sort of attachements for weapons so you could attach a +5 ranged defense to your player crafted gun.
Its just for all the weapons Im able to craft there now seems to be a better choice from the quest rewards and that is kinda gamebreaking to me when what I play for is making the best possible weapons.
Message Edited by Coralie on 05-29-2005 10:55 PM
Coralie wrote:
Can I give my 2 cents ?
(I didnt read the last 2 pages, coz it was getting boring. So if that has already been said, I'm sorry)
You're constantly comparing DPS between reward weapons and crafted weapons... and you shouldnt !
After a few tests i ran (I'm a fighter) :
Most reward weapons have ELEMENTAL damage, that crafted weapons doesnt have. Those elemental damage is used into the calculation of the DPS, but ARENT used when you use special attacks. Guess what ? That "mighty" trandoshan pistol, for example, with 320 dps, is acting like a 270 dps pistol when using any special attacks (and maybe even the normal attacks too actually). Same for proton carbine, which has 90 elemental cold damage, those arent used for special attacks. You can add to the list ANY weapons with elemental damage. And as i already said, most reward weapons have ED.
I'm doing more damage per second with crafted weapons, not even state of the art and full of krayt tissues weapons... coz i dont use just some basic attacks with those weapons (and who does ?). My DL-44XT (which is krayt this time) does insane damage compared to those rewards. Really, STOP to trust blindly those dps, and look a bit more at the max damage and speed (though, speed is almost the same all the time). And you'll understand those reward weapons ARENT uberat all.The SAC cost is low ? Yeah, that's right. But those one time weapons should at least have something that crafted weapons dont.And I think doing quests that take hours of my time should reward me a bit more than a broken handscreen and 1000 credits.
My reward weapons, that i mostly use for look, have a lower SAC. My bought crafted weapons have a higher damage output. I really DONT think that weaponsmights are screwed at all. People will continue to buy their weapons, as I will.
friendly,
Klyst
Message Edited by Coralie on 05-29-200510:55 PM
Message Edited by Coralie on 05-30-2005 07:58 AM
Baccana wrote:
Mor-Dan wrote:
Despite all your efforts, your game is even more unbalanced now than it was Pre-CU. Combat may be "slightly" more balanced, but everything else is out of balance. And I say combat is more balanced with tongue in cheek because Master Defender is WAY out of balance.
How can you possibly say Defender is overpowered? For every strength there is a weakness. The defenders weaknesses Are DRAIN and Force Breach.
here is how i can say it...
i have witnessed many conversations during the respec days of what people wanted to change their jedi template to. the vast majority of players were all suggesting master defender, and it became a well known fact that if you were fighting a master defender, you were in deep ca-ca. one particular thread said this, "...that is a good template, but if you want to be able to take on 4 people at a time, you're going to need master defender..."
ok, Jedi is supposed to be 1.5 x stronger than a double master. this means that 2:1 means the jedi should have a tough fight because he is outpowered. this should mean that in a 3:1 situation the jedi loses. is that canon? heck no, but what about this game is anymore? 4:1 should not even be a challenge, the jedi should get beaten rather easily at this point.
no character that can be actively involved in PvP should be allowed to weild this kind of strength with jedi being as hard to get as it is, but you cannot allow a profession this powerful to be too easy to get or everyone will take it, leaving all other professions empty and roles unfilled. that is how i can say master defender is out of balance. no template within the jedi trees should allow you to be more than 1.5 stronger than one other opponent. this is not to say other templates are not overpowered as well, this was just the most obvious at the time that this post was created.
***DISCLAIMER***
This thread was created BEFORE I became a Correspondent, I am just hanging around to answer questions, prove points, and refute false teachings...