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eva57198
Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:09 am
#846
DravTroele wrote:
So tell me why does it matter if your a casual player or a power gamer? Jedi is meant for anyone that has the patience for it. I think the whole thing should have been quest based and not exp based. Part of the quests could be that you have to kill so many so and so to protect some people, whatever. But it should be quest based. And the quests should get progressively harder. I am sure "The Bear Clan" was not expected to fight Darth Maul or Tyrannus if they seen him, just as Luke was not expected to fight Vader in ESB. However, a few months later after assumingly more training, Luke was expected to face Vader if he was going to become a Jedi.
Jedi was indeed meant for anyone that had the patience for it. The difference in the casual gamer and power gamer is the mentality, obviously. I seem to remember that "Jedi" were more peaceful, not so concerned about their "uber 1337 sabers", and would frequently talk with their mentors and others regarding philosophy of life, their "religion," and whatnot. I'd say that mentality is closer to a casual gamer than a powergamer. And by casual gamer I don't mean someone who has limited time on their hands as that might inadvertently make them powergamers because they must accomplish as much as they can in their limited time.By "casual gamer," I mean someone who takes time to sit back, have a friendly chat, and maybe even talk to others about philosophy every once in a while (kudos to plato, husper, and others on my server who do so). They're not so concerned about reaching the ultimate endgame and don't think their time is too precious to be able to sit down and converse with someone about something more meaningful than, "So, how long 'til you unlock teh jet-i?" Yes, this is the romantic view of Jedi, but Jedi themselves were romantic visions of sages, wisemen, and adept warrior-monks.
On the other hand, I see powergamers as being bloodthirsty, usually childish (even sadder to think of grown men who have nothing better to do than proclaim themselves master ofa fantasy game), humans who don't have much more than a single, one-track-mind mentality which usually encompasses, "I must be bettar tehn tat d00d!" I don't remember Jedi being portrayed in that light. There's nothing thoughtful or high-minded in that, yet it is the current Jedi "path."
Hehe, I'd say a true test for Jedi would be for anybody who at least had some novice training in some aspects of theology, philosophy, and ethics. It would include "conversations" with the masters about ultimate questions, much like the conversations in Zen schools that take place every so often between pupil and teacher. Of course, this will all be thrown to the side in the matter of weeks when everyone posts "Answers to stoopid jet-i quezchuns!" FAQs.
Camrux
Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:21 am
#847
Tathizar wrote:
Although i realize this is a harsh thing to say... it is true. In regards to the post about 30:1 ratio, I agree with it and think that jedi should be a long and painful grind. many say that this makes it impossible for some players to get jedi... thats the idea, not everyone is supposed to have one it is supposed to be special.
Like it has been stated before, i would hate to see 50 jedi running around on a server that are all casual players. Some say that there are already tons of jedi and that this way to unlock is easier than the old way. Now that depends. Many people are turned off by the grind and don't bother when they get the numbers on how long it would take. For others, it motivates them, that there is an end in sight and they have an idea of how far they are.
Now before everyone flames and posts that they hate me keep in mind that I am not a jedi yet (will be next phase), and that I speak only from my opinion. Yes it does suck for more casual players that want a jedi.. but honestly the jedi grind is much longer and more boring than this one(from what i have heard from multiple friends), so jedi isn't as beautified as it appears to be. I want to hear the points of others though so let it begin! Let me remind everyone that this is not a flame and it is just a conversation as to unlocking jedi... please keep flames at a minimum.
Whatever dude...just because I don't have 60 hours a week to powergrind FS points I should be denied access to an aspect of the game I am paying for? Not.
I am aware that the Jedi grind is what it is...that's fine, I'm looking forward to it myself after doing just about everything else in this game over the last 2 years - god has it been that long 
I'd rather have seen the path to padawan be exclusively quest driven without all of this XP nonsense until I hit padawan. Make the XP requirements difficult to get to the trials instead and have the trial quests to get knight instead of padawan. Anyway, I digress. My point is that there should be no aspect of the game that is unreachable to casual gamers, it's the elitist attitude of the achiever set that drives this pious perception and continues to slant additional content towards them instead of the core audience of this game (see DWB..Corvette)
Personally, I'm going to grind this out with grenades as long as I can....Then I'll go back to whatever means needed to get there as fast as I can. As a casual player (under 20 hours a week) I would be lucky to be ready XP wise for the exit quests by my final unlock date in mid April. The village quest gating and the difficulty of the jedi grind is difficult enough in and of itself. These inane XP requirements are soley in place for all the super duper grinders who can play for 6-7 buff sessions a day.
So, take it from a semi casual gamer, I'll be one of those casual padawans running around by springtime.
As a note, you can say keep the flames to a minimum but it won't matter with a thread title like that. You might as well have poured gas all over yourself and handed out matches to other posters.
DravTroele
Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:39 am
#848
eva57198 wrote:
DravTroele wrote:
So tell me why does it matter if your a casual player or a power gamer? Jedi is meant for anyone that has the patience for it. I think the whole thing should have been quest based and not exp based. Part of the quests could be that you have to kill so many so and so to protect some people, whatever. But it should be quest based. And the quests should get progressively harder. I am sure "The Bear Clan" was not expected to fight Darth Maul or Tyrannus if they seen him, just as Luke was not expected to fight Vader in ESB. However, a few months later after assumingly more training, Luke was expected to face Vader if he was going to become a Jedi.Jedi was indeed meant for anyone that had the patience for it. The difference in the casual gamer and power gamer is the mentality, obviously. I seem to remember that "Jedi" were more peaceful, not so concerned about their "uber 1337 sabers", and would frequently talk with their mentors and others regarding philosophy of life, their "religion," and whatnot. I'd say that mentality is closer to a casual gamer than a powergamer. And by casual gamer I don't mean someone who has limited time on their hands as that might inadvertently make them powergamers because they must accomplish as much as they can in their limited time. By "casual gamer," I mean someone who takes time to sit back, have a friendly chat, and maybe even talk to others about philosophy every once in a while (kudos to plato, husper, and others on my server who do so). They're not so concerned about reaching the ultimate endgame and don't think their time is too precious to be able to sit down and converse with someone about something more meaningful than, "So, how long 'til you unlock teh jet-i?" Yes, this is the romantic view of Jedi, but Jedi themselves were romantic visions of sages, wisemen, and adept warrior-monks.On the other hand, I see powergamers as being bloodthirsty, usually childish (even sadder to think of grown men who have nothing better to do than proclaim themselves master of a fantasy game), humans who don't have much more than a single, one-track-mind mentality which usually encompasses, "I must be bettar tehn tat d00d!" I don't remember Jedi being portrayed in that light. There's nothing thoughtful or high-minded in that, yet it is the current Jedi "path."Hehe, I'd say a true test for Jedi would be for anybody who at least had some novice training in some aspects of theology, philosophy, and ethics. It would include "conversations" with the masters about ultimate questions, much like the conversations in Zen schools that take place every so often between pupil and teacher. Of course, this will all be thrown to the side in the matter of weeks when everyone posts "Answers to stoopid jet-i quezchuns!" FAQs.
Actually we see things exactly the same , which is why it should be quest based, so that people are forced to learn what it is to be a Jedi. If they made Jedi in this game as something other than another combat profession, people would have a different view of Jedi. As it stands right now, Jedi is just another elite profession, that happens to take a real long time to master(as it should). However, Jedi should be forced to roleplay, based upon the quests they would have to do. One quest might be to go to a cantina on a starter planet, find a new player and help them gain enough experience to make their first few levels.
deacster25
Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:47 am
#849
I agree with the original poster for the most part. I think that Jedi is actually for any type of gamer, it just takes longer for a casual to get finished with their template. What would take power gamers a few weeks-2 months, they might have to stretch out over 6 months to a year, but they are still able to attain it. The one thing that might make the jedi grind a bit better than the force sensivitive grind are the skills gained. Instead of grinding endless mad xp for a number that does little, you grind endless mad xp that you can actually turn into something useful (well, mostly anyways).
Zahrin
Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:49 am
#850
Despite what anyone in this thread is saying about how powergamers should not deserve Jedi any more than a casual player, that's a lie. If I play 5 hours every day, and you only play 1, then yes I deserve Jedi more. If I work harder in school than some random in the back who never studies, then I get paid more than when he gets his new position at McDonald's. It's a time investment issue. I spend more time than you do, so I'm rewarded. If you can't invest the time, guess what...too bad. That's just how life is. Furthermore, if you want to 'roleplay a Jedi,' go play KotoR or something. You'll be able to play when you like, do what you want, etc. You're going to PvP in SWG whether you like it or not, and there's not much room for roleplaying. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that's just the simple truth of how SWG is. I don't mind doing the occassional casual roleplaying or trying to play my character out, but when it comes down to it, I'm there to PvP with my Jedi and be as successful as I can. Just because your end goal isn't the same and requires less effort doesn't mean that your goal should offer the same rewards as mine.
Zahrin
Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:51 am
#851
Additionally, casual gamers shouldn't play Jedi. They shouldn't play it because they will get tired of it. There is no roleplaying content for you and if you're not open to constant PvP, then there's nothing left for you. Not trying to be rude, but look at the facts...if you're a casual gamer, you will get sick of the Jedi grind and even if you get to the end goal, there is absolutely nothing for you to do if you are not a serious PvP'er.
AelricMistrider
Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:06 am
#852
Zahrin wrote:Additionally, casual gamers shouldn't play Jedi. They shouldn't play it because they will get tired of it. There is no roleplaying content for you and if you're not open to constant PvP, then there's nothing left for you. Not trying to be rude, but look at the facts...if you're a casual gamer, you will get sick of the Jedi grind and even if you get to the end goal, there is absolutely nothing for you to do if you are not a serious PvP'er.
PvP is not the end-game for everyone..you realize this right? Maybe some people just want the satisfaction of getting themselves into Jedihood, rather than just dominate everyone for an ego trip.
deacster25
Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:09 am
#853
Casual gamers and power gamers both deserve jedi, its just the powergamers who will get there first 
. And all casual gamers aren't all roleplayers. Some are casual because they have to be. I wouldn't tell anyone what they should, or should not do. Give them the facts, and let them do their own thing. Just because someone is casual, doesn't mean they aren't capable.
. And all casual gamers aren't all roleplayers. Some are casual because they have to be. I wouldn't tell anyone what they should, or should not do. Give them the facts, and let them do their own thing. Just because someone is casual, doesn't mean they aren't capable.Message Edited by deacster25 on 12-01-2004 11:11 AM
pyromonkey89
Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:12 am
#854
Tathizar wrote:Although i realize this is a harsh thing to say... it is true. In regards to the post about 30:1 ratio, I agree with it and think that jedi should be a long and painful grind. many say that this makes it impossible for some players to get jedi... thats the idea, not everyone is supposed to have one it is supposed to be special.Like it has been stated before, i would hate to see 50 jedi running around on a server that are all casual players. Some say that there are already tons of jedi and that this way to unlock is easier than the old way. Now that depends. Many people are turned off by the grind and don't bother when they get the numbers on how long it would take. For others, it motivates them, that there is an end in sight and they have an idea of how far they are.Now before everyone flames and posts that they hate me keep in mind that I am not a jedi yet (will be next phase), and that I speak only from my opinion. Yes it does suck for more casual players that want a jedi.. but honestly the jedi grind is much longer and more boring than this one(from what i have heard from multiple friends), so jedi isn't as beautified as it appears to be. I want to hear the points of others though so let it begin! Let me remind everyone that this is not a flame and it is just a conversation as to unlocking jedi... please keep flames at a minimum.
totally
/agree
DRWolfe
Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:16 am
#855
Zahrin wrote:Despite what anyone in this thread is saying about how powergamers should not deserve Jedi any more than a casual player, that's a lie. If I play 5 hours every day, and you only play 1, then yes I deserve Jedi more. If I work harder in school than some random in the back who never studies, then I get paid more than when he gets his new position at McDonald's. It's a time investment issue. I spend more time than you do, so I'm rewarded. If you can't invest the time, guess what...too bad. That's just how life is. Furthermore, if you want to 'roleplay a Jedi,' go play KotoR or something. You'll be able to play when you like, do what you want, etc. You're going to PvP in SWG whether you like it or not, and there's not much room for roleplaying. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that's just the simple truth of how SWG is. I don't mind doing the occassional casual roleplaying or trying to play my character out, but when it comes down to it, I'm there to PvP with my Jedi and be as successful as I can. Just because your end goal isn't the same and requires less effort doesn't mean that your goal should offer the same rewards as mine.
Sorry, but you don't deserve it more just because you play 5 hours a day. You deserve it when you complete the task of getting it. We all deserve it if we do the work because we all pay the same amount. Our point is that the task of getting Jedi is somewhat rediculous, both in terms of how long it takes the casual player to finish the task (outrageous XP requirements) and the fact that one must mindlessly slaughter thousands of innocent (and no-so-innocent) beings to become a Jedi (which is totally against what it is to be a Jedi, unless you're going Dark Side).
And in response to your other post, PvP is not the be-all-end-all. You say there's no RP content in this game for Jedi. There is no RP content built into this game for anyone. However, there is RP in this game, if you make it, and that's the point of RP! If you don't make it, you might as well play one of those FPS or scripted "RPGs". I want to play a Jedi I create in a game with other people, that's why I want a Jedi character in SWG and do not want to "go play KOTOR". And I deserve it just as much as anyone else.
Gooney
Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:18 am
#856
Zahrin wrote:
Additionally, casual gamers shouldn't play Jedi. They shouldn't play it because they will get tired of it. There is no roleplaying content for you and if you're not open to constant PvP, then there's nothing left for you. Not trying to be rude, but look at the facts...if you're a casual gamer, you will get sick of the Jedi grind and even if you get to the end goal, there is absolutely nothing for you to do if you are not a serious PvP'er.
See this is what you leet bois dont seem to grasp. To role play you essentially are creating your own content in a certain context.
You folks dont seem to have a clue as to what it is to be a Jedi. Sure you know the template and what a Jedi can do but you seem to totally ignore or are ignorant of what a Jedi should do.
Casual players have just as much right to playing a Jedi as anyone, I would argue that they would infact play it far better than your average leet boi.
We are all aware that if we become Knights that we will enter the FRS and become perma overt, thats fine even though flawed. However theres nothing saying that we even want to take part in that false council. There can be no Jedi Council until order is returned to the force and the Lord of the Sith is elimintated. Which can not happen in this games timeframe.
Dont make the mistake of assuming that casual gamers dont PvP. We do its just not the end-all be-all of our existance.
-Gooney
murphy7
Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:22 am
#857
Zahrin wrote:
Despite what anyone in this thread is saying about how powergamers should not deserve Jedi any more than a casual player, that's a lie. If I play 5 hours every day, and you only play 1, then yes I deserve Jedi more. If I work harder in school than some random in the back who never studies, then I get paid more than when he gets his new position at McDonald's. It's a time investment issue. I spend more time than you do, so I'm rewarded. If you can't invest the time, guess what...too bad. That's just how life is. Furthermore, if you want to 'roleplay a Jedi,' go play KotoR or something. You'll be able to play when you like, do what you want, etc. You're going to PvP in SWG whether you like it or not, and there's not much room for roleplaying. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that's just the simple truth of how SWG is. I don't mind doing the occassional casual roleplaying or trying to play my character out, but when it comes down to it, I'm there to PvP with my Jedi and be as successful as I can. Just because your end goal isn't the same and requires less effort doesn't mean that your goal should offer the same rewards as mine.
I can only agree with one sentiment in this post which is that life is not in fact fair. That you have 5 hours a day available and the interest to devote it to a game where others do not is unfortunate. Were this a fair system, we would be paying for hours logged into the game each month, and those of you with the time and interest to be tying up server resources wouldn't appreciate this. Say, for instance (and nostalgia) that game cost $0.25 per hour played. Your 140 hour month in game would cost you 35.00 dollars for that month, whereas someone who only had 5 hours a week to play, would be paying $5.00 for their month.
Another way to look at it, and one that is much closer to the SOE line of thought, is say it costs them 0.10 cents an hour per person playing to run and maintain this game (content generation, CSRs, development of expansions, as well as bandwidth and server maintennance, wages, etc.). You as the powergamer in this example cost them 14.00 dollars a month, so depending on your subscription they profit only a dollar a month on you or actually operate at cost to provide your entertainment. The casual gamer profitsSOE as much as 10.00 dollars per month per person.
The sad fact of the matter is that the powergamer schedule dictates the advancement path more than that of the casual gamer. It's not that it would be bad if 250 hours of in game work were what it took to make Jedi initiate, for the casual gamer in this example that wouldbe a years investment. It's that a powergamer could and would burn through that in a month or two, in some extreme cases, less, and that isn't acceptable to SOE.
Applying some sense of virtue to the fact you have the time to play the game is as silly as applying a virtue to the effective cost of the investment for the casual player. Casual players are simply going to get less for what they pay for, and on top of that get to listen to the insolent indolent belittle them for it.
Edit: fixed some grammatical and spelling errors.
Message Edited by murphy7 on 12-01-2004 08:25 AM
Rhysen
Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:31 am
#858
Zahrin wrote:
Despite what anyone in this thread is saying about how powergamers should not deserve Jedi any more than a casual player, that's a lie. If I play 5 hours every day, and you only play 1, then yes I deserve Jedi more. If I work harder in school than some random in the back who never studies, then I get paid more than when he gets his new position at McDonald's. It's a time investment issue. I spend more time than you do, so I'm rewarded. If you can't invest the time, guess what...too bad. That's just how life is. Furthermore, if you want to 'roleplay a Jedi,' go play KotoR or something. You'll be able to play when you like, do what you want, etc. You're going to PvP in SWG whether you like it or not, and there's not much room for roleplaying. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that's just the simple truth of how SWG is. I don't mind doing the occassional casual roleplaying or trying to play my character out, but when it comes down to it, I'm there to PvP with my Jedi and be as successful as I can. Just because your end goal isn't the same and requires less effort doesn't mean that your goal should offer the same rewards as mine.
Boy, are they twisting your head up in school. Studying more than someone else or doing 5 times the homework of someone else didn't necessarily make you a better student (at least not when I went through HS/College). The quality of the student had little to do with the amount of work he did and a lot to do with the quality of the work he was capable of doing. There were plenty of people in my classes that had to study twice as hard and do plenty of extra work simply to come close to the grades I had. You want to come into my office and do 5 times the work? I'll gladly work you to death because I can being management level. The amount of work I did had an effect on me heading up customer support but far more important was the quality of the work I was capable of producing.
Or to put it into terms that relate to this game, sure you can invest 5x as many hours as me or someone else throwing grenades at Baz Nitches on Dathomir. It doesn't make you a better player in the slightest. And only the system that rewards investing more time into the game doing mindlessly repetitive things makes you believe you deserve something more than another person.Just because you made Jedi 6 months faster than another player doesn't mean that player won't cut you apart when you go to lock sabers with him. Your ability to waste more time doesn't prove you're a better PvPer nor will it make you one.
If anything, to me at least, your attitude makes me believe if your ambition were represented by a human being, it'd be able to limbo under an ant. Your goal is to hit the "1" key more times per hour and believe that's worthy of a reward? You're lauding the ability to endure meaningless tedium and elevating it to something that should be admired. I don't know about in the Ahazi galaxy but in the galaxy commonly refered to as the Milky Way, that type of attitude is rarely admired and often laughed at.