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Thread: To those who feel that the unwilling should be forced into PvP to master Pilot....
Vikassi wrote:
Cause its fun dude....Stop playing against AI all the time and play against the real thing.....If you dont like itstay on the ground and go perform genocide on your durni's!
Have some fun once in awhile.........
Message Edited by Vikassi on 10-28-2004 10:16 AM
Reading comprehension is not high on your to do list is it?
Faraed wrote:
My statement isnt untrue because if you take a look at JTL....................... ITS AN FPS!!!!!!!!
And I guarantee you, if you take a poll in this game, on your server, on this forum, where ever, you will find that atleast 80% of the people in this game regularly play some FPS game (or have regularly in the past but currently dont) on the internet against other players. So dont give me that, "mmo players are different," argument, because they arent. We all play the same games, go take a poll andyou will see. We have done that on bria already. The vast majority of Bria players recognizable on the boards are into some other type of FPS.
Sorry, actual playerbase statistics trump what you think is true. The majority of MMO players don't want to participate in PvP while playing their MMO. That's the reality of things.
Falin
Vegitaa wrote:
Ground based PvP is totally borked. For that matter the whole combat system is a bit.. well.. kinda boring at the moment. But, as an MMO it's to be expected. Get buffed, join group, target enemy, hit some function keys, done.
Agreed.
The difference I like is that in space you have to actually get the other guy under your sights. Sure, there's some groovey little abilities but all in all it still comes down to who can get the most rounds on target. Now that may mean that only the best pilots end up mastering the Ace title. Isn't that the way it should be? Shouldn't an "ACE" be considered one of the best of the best?
So? If you're not into PVP, this will still not make you interested. It's not about how the PVP system is in JTL, the fact is that it's not for everyone, nor should it be. It can't even be for everyone, since I'm sure there are people out there who would prefer the RPG turn based system of the ground game. And why can't "the best" be a PVE pilot? What's stopping that?
PVP != Challenge. If this statement was false, the only challenge you could ever find in ANY game would be PVP.
No FRS exploits to get there, no Geno cave spawns to grind, just your skills against mine. To me that is the best addition they have made to this game. Finally you won't see the guy with the best armour or stacking template winning. It's going to be about how well you fly. If you can't rack up enough kills to warrant the title of "ACE" then well, it's because you're not one.
Funny though, for the master missions, player kills don't even count. While the addition might be the best addition ever for you, it will absolutely be the worst for someone who doesn't like PVP. You need to look at this without your own eyes for a bit. I myself actually like PVP, and in JTL it is also fun (compared to the ground game), that doesn't mean that I can't see how messed up this is. While we'll both enjoy the PVP system, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be optional. There are people out there who just don't wanna participate, but they still want the most out of their expansion. (which they are entitled to)
In no way is this a flame or boast. Lord knows it will take anyone a longtime before they will be able to master it anyway. Last round of beta I don't think there were any Ace's and if there were it was very few. I have faith in my piloting skills because I have 12 years of flight sim exp and those are the types of online games I used to play (still do Aces High, WW2 online...). For the first time in over a year the GCW is beginning to heat up again. Now if they could make it so you can land/launch your ship in the hanger of a faction base... they could finally make those worth having again.
There were plenty of aces at the last round of beta. I was one of them, and I knew at least three more. We'll see our first masters in just a few weeks, if not sooner.
I don't think that the GCW will really heat up again, not with JTL. There is still no reason to fight at all, just a slightly better PVP system. How can we get people interested to fight when there is just no point to it? Also, don't expect the GCW to heat up because of the Master missions, if anything, these will hurt PVP by making the chasm between PVE and PVP players bigger.
I know this is probably just going to be like everything else in SWG. People will complain because they can't get to the top easily. I believe it gives us something to shoot for though. I've been anticipating JTL because it does breathe new life into the GCW. Also having been a part of the Beta PVP weekend I can tell you this... things are not as bad as this thread leads you to believe.
The PVP weekend didn't quite do justice to how PVP in JTL is. We had pretty much dev-fabricated ships with dev-fabricated weapons and components. The real PVP was more like the PVP you could face in Kessel after the weekend, when the server was wiped again. Still, even that isn't a fair judgement since the developers, at a rather strange whim, decided to change the mass system just a few days before the beta ended. The fact is that the PVP system has not been thorougly tested at all because of this and the ever changing flight model.
Faraed wrote:
My statement isnt untrue because if you take a look at JTL....................... ITS AN FPS!!!!!!!!
No, wrong. JTL is a FPS expansion to SWG, the MMO with a turn based system. Guess who will be playing it?
Yes, that's right. The SWG players.
And I guarantee you, if you take a poll in this game, on your server, on this forum, where ever, you will find that atleast 80% of the people in this game regularly play some FPS game (or have regularly in the past but currently dont) on the internet against other players.
Not true at all, but you are welcome to do such a poll. Do it with scientific methods, and with a good, statistical selection. You will be surprised. MMOs attract people who usually do not even play games.
So dont give me that, "mmo players are different," argument, because they arent. We all play the same games, go take a poll andyou will see. We have done that on bria already. The vast majority of Bria players recognizable on the boards are into some other type of FPS.
Yes, and the majority of Bria's players actually write on the boards, huh?
FalinMor wrote:
Faraed wrote:
Do you wnat to know why your theory here doesnt work out? I'll tell you why.
PVP in this game drastically needs some sort of a reward. PERIOD. Any kind of a reward would suffice right now. One thing you gotta understand, as much as you wish it werent so, this game is designed for PVP. It is the focal point of the game. This is a game about a civil war, not the extermination of critters in the landscape. The reason that civil war isnt raging is due to lack of reward. Whatever reward they put in the game must be some sort of high level, highly coveted reward for it to serve its purpose. There must be some sort of loss vs gain system here. Participants feel the gain, non-participants feel the loss or restriction of access.
So lets assume for a second that they reverse this little change you guys want and take master missions out of the pvp zone and allow everyone to master pilot without engaging in pvp. They will be forced to eventually implement another reward of some sorts for pvp'ers. You know what will happen then?
All of these people who whine and complain about not wanting to PVP are going to whine and complain that they want what the PVP'ers have, but they dont feel they should be "forced to pvp" to get it. Its a never ending cycle. The line has to be drawn somewhere between what the devs will listen to and what they wont. Its this kind of attitude that leads to lack of high end content in this game. Everything cant be open to everyone. Certain items, milestones and accomplishements have to be restricted to certain types of gameplay for them to be accurate rewards. You want the master pilot reward? Then fulfill the requirements whether you like them, or not because THAT IS WHAT ACHIEVEMENT IS ALL ABOUT.
Again I say, absolutely untrue. This game was absolutely NOT designed with PvP as the focal point. It was not.
And now I have to ask: why do you see the ability of people who like PvP to kill people who don't like PvP as a reward? In the current system, you're not "rewarding the PvPer" by giving them a Master box. You're making people do things they hate in order to get it. It makes no sense.
Besides, after seeing all this stuff about "challenge" and whatnot, why all this talk about rewards? I thought the challenge WAS the reward. At least, that's how I've always felt about it. What other reward is needed? PvPers are the "ultimate gamers" after all, aren't they? At least, that's what so many claim.
Falin
FalinMor wrote:
Faraed wrote:
My statement isnt untrue because if you take a look at JTL....................... ITS AN FPS!!!!!!!!
And I guarantee you, if you take a poll in this game, on your server, on this forum, where ever, you will find that atleast 80% of the people in this game regularly play some FPS game (or have regularly in the past but currently dont) on the internet against other players. So dont give me that, "mmo players are different," argument, because they arent. We all play the same games, go take a poll andyou will see. We have done that on bria already. The vast majority of Bria players recognizable on the boards are into some other type of FPS.
Sorry, actual playerbase statistics trump what you think is true. The majority of MMO players don't want to participate in PvP while playing their MMO. That's the reality of things.
Falin
Funny how you claim "statistics" and "reality" but provide no evidence. Go do a search on the bria boards and you will find a real poll of how many Brians play FPS's.
Vicotnik wrote:
Faraed wrote:
My statement isnt untrue because if you take a look at JTL....................... ITS AN FPS!!!!!!!!
No, wrong. JTL is a FPS expansion to SWG, the MMO with a turn based system. Guess who will be playing it?
Yes, that's right. The SWG players.
And I guarantee you, if you take a poll in this game, on your server, on this forum, where ever, you will find that atleast 80% of the people in this game regularly play some FPS game (or have regularly in the past but currently dont) on the internet against other players.
Not true at all, but you are welcome to do such a poll. Do it with scientific methods, and with a good, statistical selection. You will be surprised. MMOs attract people who usually do not even play games.
So dont give me that, "mmo players are different," argument, because they arent. We all play the same games, go take a poll andyou will see. We have done that on bria already. The vast majority of Bria players recognizable on the boards are into some other type of FPS.
Yes, and the majority of Bria's players actually write on the boards, huh?
The only half valid argument you have in there is that the majority of Bria's players dont write on the boards. But since the boards are the only point of reference and common communication ground we have access to, your argument becomes irrelevant. You base your opinions and gain your support off of the very people posting on the same boards.
Faraed wrote:
How can you argue that? Its totally obvious that this game was designed with PVP as the focal point. Its a game about a civil war. A civil war that the players are supposed to become involved in and fight eachother. Every system in this game is somehow tied into the GCW. To argue anything less is either ignorance or wishful thinking and I dont think you are ignorant.
BS, pure BS. These systems are not in any way (except that factioned players may use them)tied to the GCW:
The Combat system - Can be used without participating in the GCW. In fact, it works better for PVE than for PVP.
The Medic system - Can be used to heal and buff everyone, not just factioned players.
The Crafting system - They don't even craft factioned items!
The Entertainer system - They heal the wounds and battle fatigue of everyone, not just factioned players.
The Image Designer system - Can work on everyone, not just factioned players.
Most of the content in forms of dungeons and such are doable without joiningfaction.
In the current system you are rewarding the PVPer by granting him something that the non-pvper cant have unless hes willing to go into the pvp zone and risk getting involved in some pvp. And who's to say they hate it in the first place when they havent even tried it yet? I mean, these guys like to fly planes and kill people in other games like Battlefield 1942 and Battlefront, why not in SWG? JTL is an fps, dont forget that.
Just because JTL has a FPS moment, that doesn't mean that it will be played by just FPS gamers. SWG gamers will play it, like it or not, and must be made after this.
My argument about challenge obviously went right over your head. My argument about challenge basically stated that there needs to be things in this game to make it more difficult and rewarding. This achieves both. Granted its not the best of rewards for PVP'ers, but its a step in the right direction.
Once a-freakin'-again: PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP. If these statements were not true, the only way to make a game challenging would be to add a PVP moment. Hell, even tetris proved this wrong.
Obviously all our arguments are flying several miles right over your head. There is no way that these missions is a step in the right direction since, and get this: They actually hurt the game. There is no single way you, or anyone else have yet been able to justify how adding this "challenge" through PVP justfies the fact that you will alienate such a large portion of the SWG playerbase. Especially not when you can get the same results through PVE means and not alienating anyone. You need to look at this problem with other eyes and other views than your own for a while, try to be a bit objective and you might actually see the point here.
**** My responses are in Bold-Red-Italic only to make them readable! ****
Vicotnik wrote:
Vegitaa wrote:
Ground based PvP is totally borked. For that matter the whole combat system is a bit.. well.. kinda boring at the moment. But, as an MMO it's to be expected. Get buffed, join group, target enemy, hit some function keys, done.
Agreed.
The difference I like is that in space you have to actually get the other guy under your sights. Sure, there's some groovey little abilities but all in all it still comes down to who can get the most rounds on target. Now that may mean that only the best pilots end up mastering the Ace title. Isn't that the way it should be? Shouldn't an "ACE" be considered one of the best of the best?
So? If you're not into PVP, this will still not make you interested. It's not about how the PVP system is in JTL, the fact is that it's not for everyone, nor should it be. It can't even be for everyone, since I'm sure there are people out there who would prefer the RPG turn based system of the ground game. And why can't "the best" be a PVE pilot? What's stopping that?
PVP != Challenge. If this statement was false, the only challenge you could ever find in ANY game would be PVP.
Well I guess in my point of view.. Just because an ACE title exists doesn't mean evryone "deserves" the ability to be one. Also, in the ground game I never was big into PvP, and I would rather not "have to" do it to get my Decimator. On the otherhand I can't say that it's Game stopping for me to be pushed that direction. Now mind you I agree with you on almost everything you posted so I'm just gonna answer briefly...
No FRS exploits to get there, no Geno cave spawns to grind, just your skills against mine. To me that is the best addition they have made to this game. Finally you won't see the guy with the best armour or stacking template winning. It's going to be about how well you fly. If you can't rack up enough kills to warrant the title of "ACE" then well, it's because you're not one.
Funny though, for the master missions, player kills don't even count. While the addition might be the best addition ever for you, it will absolutely be the worst for someone who doesn't like PVP. You need to look at this without your own eyes for a bit. I myself actually like PVP, and in JTL it is also fun (compared to the ground game), that doesn't mean that I can't see how messed up this is. While we'll both enjoy the PVP system, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be optional. There are people out there who just don't wanna participate, but they still want the most out of their expansion. (which they are entitled to)
Again, agreed. I don't see it as the best addition. Matter of fact, I would have rather had the Multipassenger ships further down the skill trees because I don't feel they warrant master. I do agree, forced PvP is not a good idea, but as before I think there's bigger issues currently so this isn't a big priority for me.
In no way is this a flame or boast. Lord knows it will take anyone a longtime before they will be able to master it anyway. Last round of beta I don't think there were any Ace's and if there were it was very few. I have faith in my piloting skills because I have 12 years of flight sim exp and those are the types of online games I used to play (still do Aces High, WW2 online...). For the first time in over a year the GCW is beginning to heat up again. Now if they could make it so you can land/launch your ship in the hanger of a faction base... they could finally make those worth having again.
There were plenty of aces at the last round of beta. I was one of them, and I knew at least three more. We'll see our first masters in just a few weeks, if not sooner.
(I stopped playing Beta probably 2 weeks after that PvP weekend due to family stuff and well.. a bit of boredom. So I'll defer to you on that with no arguement.)
I don't think that the GCW will really heat up again, not with JTL. There is still no reason to fight at all, just a slightly better PVP system. How can we get people interested to fight when there is just no point to it? Also, don't expect the GCW to heat up because of the Master missions, if anything, these will hurt PVP by making the chasm between PVE and PVP players bigger.
On the ground game I'm all about PvE. I enjoy the silly little quests and items like Wooven Baskets and such. I'm mainly a loot collector more than anything else. GCW needs major work. I think a lot of us saw this Master Level pvp as a partial solution and temporary fix to an already broken GCW. I do know that I'm seeing more guilds acting together than off alone grinding Janta's recently.
I know this is probably just going to be like everything else in SWG. People will complain because they can't get to the top easily. I believe it gives us something to shoot for though. I've been anticipating JTL because it does breathe new life into the GCW. Also having been a part of the Beta PVP weekend I can tell you this... things are not as bad as this thread leads you to believe.
The PVP weekend didn't quite do justice to how PVP in JTL is. We had pretty much dev-fabricated ships with dev-fabricated weapons and components. The real PVP was more like the PVP you could face in Kessel after the weekend, when the server was wiped again. Still, even that isn't a fair judgement since the developers, at a rather strange whim, decided to change the mass system just a few days before the beta ended. The fact is that the PVP system has not been thorougly tested at all because of this and the ever changing flight model.
Now that is disturbing. I think things are going to shake out though. Seems to me that now that the Dev's are back on these boards and out of the Beta boards we are going to see some changes. Hopefully for the better.
I am not in support of forced anything by anyone in anyway. Just to get that said. OPn the other hand, they threw on this requirement in much the same way as they threw together the FRS system. Maybe it's not the best idea, maybe it's just going to get changed in the next few weeks or months. Can't really say. Personally though, I'm more concerned right now about the huge amounts of new groundbased bugs, lag from hell, and the long promised Combat Balance.
If we're going to see ACE's in the next few weeks then it sounds to me like this is not nearly as gamestopping as the bugs I mentioned as well as the many I didn't.