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Thread: Space PvP needs more help
Slarus
Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:14 pm
#66
I made my point LRRCP, you can have your fantasies about what an MMORPG is. The term was coined by games made in 96 and 97, Air Warrior was a flight sim with multiplayer capability, it really doesnt matter if it came out in 1802 or 1992 or whatever, it was not called an MMORPG, it isnt, an RPG it is a flight sim. Dont bother saying anything more about this, if you want the final word be my guest, anyone can look it up. A cell phone is a marketing term but that doesnt mean a cordless phone that uses a ground line in a home is a cell phone, but go right ahead and act like a fool tring to prove a flight sim is an MMO.
As for the differences between a live player and an NPC, you know what, who cares again I guess a Player TIE is a TIEPC and an NPC TIE is a TIENPC, I never see either when I target someone or something I see a TIE.
You want to player developer as well, ok fine you think it is easy to code a badge for you ego that records each individual kill for each PvP player on each server and this will cause no problem and be seemless, then by all means write it up and send it in to SOE, and while your at it, tell em how to make the game less laggy, I mean if you can solve you ego stroking badge issue a brillant multi-talented jer..person like yourself should have no problem out doing the devs at SOE, in fact just write your own Star Wars MMO, the way only you could make it work, get Lucas to give you production rights and make us all happy so we may thank you.
I am sure on some planet your ramblings are impressive and would work, but you major problem is this is planet Earth.
Slarus
Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:19 pm
#67
It is true that the GCW has no point. There is no way to tell which side is winning. The last contest we had between the factions was the whole cries of alderaan series.
I see no problem with having kill counters or badges that score pvp accomplishments. There has to be some incentive out there for people that want to fight each other.
A kill counter was an idea I had, and that would be a good idea, as I have said so it has no bias you have a PC/NPC counter and a top kills for each server in both areas, but again this is not a PvP game so any badges or rewards strictly for incentive and only obtained by PvP is unbalanced. If someone wants to PvP then do it, if your only doing it for special reward then you have no passion for it in the first place. I am passionate about the missions I take and the NPCs I down, it makes me happy to fly classic Star Wars ships, yet PvPers need extra incentive for something all of you claim you are passionate about and gives you a challenge. Clearly it does nothing for you, since you MUST have special ego boosts in order to do it, but alas we want more balance not less so special rewards are just not practicial.
Slarus
Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:38 pm
#68
Slarus - Jedi get "Badges" for PvP right now. Find a Jediand do an examine on him/her, scroll to the bottom of the badge list and you will see a listing of other Jedi they have defeated.
And I think it is unbalanced and it is only for FRS Jedi which is PvP in the first place. Not all Jedi have it. All rewards, badges and lootsshould be obtained by PvE period end of story this game is not a PvP game, the badge you refer to is the FRS badge. A Jedi can be a knight with all his powers without FRS, all FRS does is enhance those powers they already have, but no I dont agree with having FRS and I am not alone every hardcore PvPers hate the FRS so just stop it right there it doesnt prove anything it is so minor (100 ranks per server) and is so broken it isnt worth mentioning.
Has this feature changed the balance of the game for PvEers? If it has, I don't see how. What it has done however is made the game more enjoyable for Jedi, who have to PvP as part of there progression up the Jedi tree.
Has this feature changed the balance of the game for PvEers? If it has, I don't see how. What it has done however is made the game more enjoyable for Jedi, who have to PvP as part of there progression up the Jedi tree.
It has changed the balance, it isnt more enjoyable to the Jedi, who almost universally hate it, it has no place in the "Jedi" way either.
For pilots in JTL a Kill Board would be much better then a badge, but that aside, the reward of recognition is what
is really needed. Every sport has some kind of recognition giving PvPers some kind of recognition is what motivates them to speed the time, money and affort to engage in PvP. PvPer's and PvEer's choose diffrent play styles, and some folks that enjoy one sytle do cross over to the other or change from day to day. It does not make sense to limit the choices that a player can make unless the choice of one playstyle over the other is going to create a situation where griefing occurs. There is a massive amount of content that is only accessable though PvE methods right now. Every theame parks rewards and badges can only be obtained through PvE, therefore
forcing people who PvP go through a PvE experiance. Now is that fair? Applying your logic, it is not fair.
For pilots in JTL a Kill Board would be much better then a badge, but that aside, the reward of recognition is what
is really needed. Every sport has some kind of recognition giving PvPers some kind of recognition is what motivates them to speed the time, money and affort to engage in PvP. PvPer's and PvEer's choose diffrent play styles, and some folks that enjoy one sytle do cross over to the other or change from day to day. It does not make sense to limit the choices that a player can make unless the choice of one playstyle over the other is going to create a situation where griefing occurs. There is a massive amount of content that is only accessable though PvE methods right now. Every theame parks rewards and badges can only be obtained through PvE, therefore
forcing people who PvP go through a PvE experiance. Now is that fair? Applying your logic, it is not fair.
Are you kidding, once again name one MMORPG that requires PvP for advacncement? just one, every one allows for PvE most if not all advancement. PvP is addition not core to 99% of the MMORPGs it is totally fair because PvP is unreliable, there are too many factors that may prevent in part or total complaeting a mission or theme park if it relied on PvP to finish and you know it. As it stands now if any theme park REQUIRED PvP, few if any could complete it, not because of skill but because no one PvPs on the ground it is broken there are issues. It is totally fair because the game is 99% PvE core and your being rediculous with this.
Seperating PvPers and PvEers into diffrent camps only works to a certain point, I would go so far as to say the
diffrent playstyles must have diffrent rewards in order for both camps to be happy.
Seperating PvPers and PvEers into diffrent camps only works to a certain point, I would go so far as to say the
diffrent playstyles must have diffrent rewards in order for both camps to be happy.
Bull, seperate rewards will only tick off PvEers who will not PvP, ALL 100% every single PvPer also PvEs, period you cant prove it otherwise because they did it for advancement, they do it for cash, but not every PvEer will even try PvP and they shouldnt have to that is why the game has 99% PvE content.
Does a PvPer really care about going though the Jabba theame park to get a painting? Nope. But if they want it they have to. Does a PvEer care about the kill the Jedi enclave? Well if they want to go up the ladder they have to!
Does a PvPer really care about going though the Jabba theame park to get a painting? Nope. But if they want it they have to. Does a PvEer care about the kill the Jedi enclave? Well if they want to go up the ladder they have to!
So what? And if you want every badge but hate PvP, what do you do if there is a PvP only badge, again name one PvP badge in any MMORPG? FRS is it, and it's broken the players hate it, so why put in more hated content?
The two play styles both need rewards for what motivates them. That is the fact of the matter, otherwise, people will look someplace else to meet there needs and that would not be a good game design.
The two play styles both need rewards for what motivates them. That is the fact of the matter, otherwise, people will look someplace else to meet there needs and that would not be a good game design.
That is why you give both a kill counter and a leader board it solves the problem and doesnt create elitist which you seem to want by giving less then 10% of players a badge only 30% will EVER try for.
Slarus
Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:46 pm
#69
At the beginning of the SWG launch PVP was abondant. There used to be hundreds of people squaring off between Anchorhead and Bestine on a daily basis. I believe people stopped playing because of balance issues, and player cities. It was a time before buffs, jedi, and templates. For the most part it was really fun.
Exactly, so putting in special rewards and content for an unbalanced system makes no sense, it doesnt.
The fact that you dont see an overt that often in these places has more to do with the quality of the PVP game. When the devs fix the problems I believe people will return to it.
But you think hinging rewards on a poor quality element is a good idea, just on that this is a stupid idea to make a badge just for PvP with all the issues.
As far as SWG being a PVP or PVE game, I guess thats a subjective issue. You say its not a PVP game because it doesnt require it, I say that PVP is a part of it, because you can engage in it. Maybe its fair to say that PVP is an aspect of SWG that people can choose to enjoy if they wish.
PvP is part of it, a small part PvE is the core of the game 99% of it, PvP doesnt affect the game largely. You want to claim the game wouldnt work without PvP, and the minimal quality and participants proves the game would work even without PvP, you know you wont admit it though as it would make your crying for special ego stroking invalid. I see on the servers I play on if I am lucky in a mjor starport 1 in over 100 overtsincluding Jedi knights who are forced overt, my perception is less then 1% are Overt, now sure I agree it is a quality issue, but I still see SWG operating with such abysmal participation in PvP.
I agree with you on the loot being unbalanced. I don't agree with you that a badge is unbalanced since it does not offer any advantage in the game whatsoever. I also agree with you on the rating issue.
Any reward not abtainable by the majority of players is unbalanced, you wont find one MMORPG that doesnt have badges that would do it. There is no reason for it, if missions with payouts, a kill counter and leaderboard is not enough for the 1% currently and the 25%-40% possible PvPers then it is ego stroking, not reward you are looking for.
Blackjack_Nova
Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:56 pm
#70
Slarus - Trying to balance PvP game play and PvE game play is like trying to balance an apple and an orange. They are both viable choices but they are two diffrent things. I am having a hard time seeing why you are so against having a reward that you can only get if you PvE or PvP. Are you saying that all rewards and recongnitions should apply to all groups and playstyles?
Yes the systems are broken for ground combat and space combat systems need some adjustment as well, but that should not prevent other systems such as a reward system from moving forward.
People like to see their stats stacked up against other people who are in the same league as them. That is why there
Yes the systems are broken for ground combat and space combat systems need some adjustment as well, but that should not prevent other systems such as a reward system from moving forward.
People like to see their stats stacked up against other people who are in the same league as them. That is why there
are hunderds of sports leagues. From the peewee leagues to the pros, people track their stats and measure them against other players that are in the same league and play at the same level.
I agree with you totally that someone who PvP's should not be able to get areward that would benefit them in a wayover someone who does not PvP. The reward needs to bea type of trophy. In UO (Ultima Online) you get a persons ear. In Jumpgate (which is a spaced base MMORPG) you get a stat that is posted to a website. Both of these rewards provide bragging rights and do not give the person a benefit over someone who does not PvP.
It is a game, people want and need things to motivate themand drive them to go on. Both PvPers and PvPer need rewards that motivate them. That is human nature my friend. Once you have experianced the content of the game and have mastered your profession you have two paths to turn to for continued entertainment. PvP and Roleplaying otherwise, you will become bored. That is the nature of things. So for those of us that are at that point we want more reason to keep coming back and that is what it is all about from a business perspective, keeping customers. In the long run people who only PvE will leave the game unless they turn to roleplaying people who PvP will stay with the game MUCH longer if the combat system is good (which is one reason it is being improved) AND if they have a way to show off their achivements. That is why humans get, grades, medals, trophys, certificates, badges, paychecks and handshakes. We want to be rewarded and we want to see how we stack up. That does makes sence yes?
I agree with you totally that someone who PvP's should not be able to get areward that would benefit them in a wayover someone who does not PvP. The reward needs to bea type of trophy. In UO (Ultima Online) you get a persons ear. In Jumpgate (which is a spaced base MMORPG) you get a stat that is posted to a website. Both of these rewards provide bragging rights and do not give the person a benefit over someone who does not PvP.
It is a game, people want and need things to motivate themand drive them to go on. Both PvPers and PvPer need rewards that motivate them. That is human nature my friend. Once you have experianced the content of the game and have mastered your profession you have two paths to turn to for continued entertainment. PvP and Roleplaying otherwise, you will become bored. That is the nature of things. So for those of us that are at that point we want more reason to keep coming back and that is what it is all about from a business perspective, keeping customers. In the long run people who only PvE will leave the game unless they turn to roleplaying people who PvP will stay with the game MUCH longer if the combat system is good (which is one reason it is being improved) AND if they have a way to show off their achivements. That is why humans get, grades, medals, trophys, certificates, badges, paychecks and handshakes. We want to be rewarded and we want to see how we stack up. That does makes sence yes?
Message Edited by Blackjack_Nova on 12-29-2004 08:02 AM
Blackjack_Nova
Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:38 pm
#71
Aces need a kill board. That includes both PvEers and PvPers. Somewhere in their, that fact seemed to become blurred. For PvEers kill counts are a motivater. Call it a reward , call it a trophy, all the same it is a motivater. It would not be exclusive to people who PvP, it is available to all players. Wheww now lets move on! 
Message Edited by Blackjack_Nova on 12-29-2004 07:54 AM
Slarus
Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:54 pm
#72
Aces need a kill board. That includes both PvEers and PvPers. Somewhere in their, that fact seemed to become blurred. For PvEers kill counts are a motivater. Call it a reward , call it a trophy, all the same it is a motivater. It would not be exclusive to people who PvP, it is available to all players. Wheww now let move on!
Not sure what you mean by Aces, but the rest is spot on grats.
Slarus
Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:13 am
#73
I agree with blackjack. All very good points.
Slarus I have come to realize that your opinion is fixed, so I'm not going to try to change it. I guess I'll just agree that we disagree on some issues. By the way, calling my idea stupid could be considered inflamitory. You could have just as easily disagreed with it, and spared the venom.
Again trying the holier then thou stand, well whatever it was a stupid idea report me if you like you have said worse so my opinion stands, stupid yes a stupid idea. Also like to add that your attempt to be holier then thou is also stupid and childish, which is why most people here will back you up.
I mean you could have just left it with I agree with blackjack and agree to disagree with me, because I know your not that offended by me calling an idea stupid, I didnt call you stupid, but you have to try and score more points by going after me again which is also stupid as I could careless. You rarely ever disagree and leave it like that so why should I?
Reading through your posts I am not surprised your one of those closed minded folks that think Jedi have no place in a Star Wars MMOPRG "There are too many Jedi" based on what, a single line in a movie? Do you realize this game is only BASED on Star Wars, no one, including Lucas has ever said this game must strictly adhere to one line in a movie that also can be proven falable. Yoda didnt see the Dark Lord of the Sith sitting across the table from him, but EVERY Jedi and EVERY force user Except Luke and Leia were wiped out of an entire galaxy? Jedi belong in the game more then almost 10 other professions because Jedi were in the movies, but no solid reference to a Bio Engineer for example or a Ranger, or Creature Handler, Fencer, and more. Some of em you can say well this character did things that is "Like" the profession, but it is assumption only. A Jedi is a Jedi and named as such in EVERY movie. Well lets put a little assuption for this as well, if the "Jedi" in the game were not real Jedi would it be a problem then? These Faux Jedi have minimal training and dont come close to the glory of the Jedi of old? Problem solved using assuption as well as plain fact.
Are you that naive?
Message Edited by Slarus on 12-29-2004 10:59 AM
TotalJerk
Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:32 pm
#74
I agree with blackjack. All very good points.
Slarus I have come to realize that your opinion is fixed, so I'm not going to try to change it. I guess I'll just agree that we disagree on some issues. By the way, calling my idea stupid could be considered inflamitory. You could have just as easily disagreed with it, and spared the venom.
Starson
Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:06 pm
#76
Face it guys noone wants to pvp. No damage, no reward, no reason, no nothing....so what is the point.
TotalJerk
Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:07 pm
#77
Maybe youre right starson. At the beginning everyone was doing it. Whats the big change? Is it balance or player cities?
LRRCP
Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:04 pm
#78
Amuro0079 wrote:
LRRCP wrote:
Amuro0079 wrote:
I edited my previous post, go check it.
EDIT
I didn't say MMO has only one requirement. It has to be persisitent and has support for thousands of players at the same time to be considered as MMO. If either one is false, then the game is not MMO. Freelancer isn't quite MMO, strictly speaking.
Message Edited by Amuro0079 on 12-27-2004 02:50 PM
http://archive.gamespy.com/amdmmog/week1/
You will notice that Thousands of players is not used in the article.
That article didn't give any definition of MMO. While it didn't mention 'thousands of players', it did mention persistent worldand 'larger number of players' through out the article.
LRRCP wrote:
I thinkit's thepeople whocame up with the term Massive Multiplayer Online. There's indeed a definition somewhere if you search google
It is a abbreviation of a term made up for marketing purpose.
Massive multi player sounds better to the consumer then Multi player.
there is no standard in the industry that defines what a MMO game is and MMORPG could also beused to describemany of the early on line text based RPG games.
these terms are generic.
Why bother? Why not just use terms like network or multiplayer to describe those early games? Plain and simple, isn't it? I don't understand why you feel the urge to stick MMO in front of every multiplayer game that supports 100+ players.
And if you want definition of MMO here's one:
http://apstc.sun.com.sg/~gaming/MMOG1.html
Message Edited by Amuro0079 on 12-28-2004 01:44 PM
Amuro0079 because it applies as much to them as any other game and giving me a link to some place called PJ-Gaming does not make your case.
MMOG=Massive (no limit given by the industry) Mulitplayer (more then one), On-line (of course on-line) Game...
You keep stating that there is some minimum limit for a game to be called MMO yet the industry has no standard on what a MMOG really is.. even the link I gave you from game spy said more then 16 could be called a MMO.
The term MMOG and MMORPG are not standardized and can be applied to any on-line game as they are nothing more them marketing terms.
One thing your definitions tend to neglect is Pay to Play