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Thread: Space PvP needs more help
LRRCP
Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:07 pm
#53
If we should be rewarded for defeating someone in PvP, then what should we risk if we lose? Do not answer that question by thinking of what you want to take from your defeated opponent. Answer that question by asking yourself, what are YOU willing to give up if YOUlose.
Why not prestige points as they are already tracked anyway.
Why not prestige points as they are already tracked anyway.
LRRCP
Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:53 pm
#54
I thinkit's thepeople whocame up with the term Massive Multiplayer Online. There's indeed a definition somewhere if you search google
It is a abbreviation of a term made up for marketing purpose.
Massive multi player sounds better to the consumer then Multi player.
there is no standard in the industry that defines what a MMO game is and MMORPG could also beused to describemany of the early on line text based RPG games.
these terms are generic.
Blackjack_Nova
Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:02 pm
#55
A Wing Commander style kill board is what comes to mind.A death stat is one thing, I am willing to give up.For those of you that did not play Wing Commander, there is a "pilots bar" that you could go to after your mission and look at a stats board of how many kills each pilot has, how many missions and so forth. It really added to the feeling of being part of something bigger then yourself and it pushed you to do better and best your wingmates. The one diffrence is that
the JTL board would have to deal with people killing each other just for a stat count. There are many ways that can be addressed.
Man I hope an Angel is listening or a DEV because this would be a MASSIVELY cool feature to have ingame.
Man I hope an Angel is listening or a DEV because this would be a MASSIVELY cool feature to have ingame.
LRRCP
Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:06 pm
#56
Amuro0079 wrote:
I edited my previous post, go check it.
EDIT
I didn't say MMO has only one requirement. It has to be persisitent and has support for thousands of players at the same time to be considered as MMO. If either one is false, then the game is not MMO. Freelancer isn't quite MMO, strictly speaking.
Message Edited by Amuro0079 on 12-27-2004 02:50 PM
http://archive.gamespy.com/amdmmog/week1/
You will notice that Thousands of players is not used in the article.
Amuro0079
Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:02 pm
#57
That's not progress, that's just yourstats. Progress means your hitpoints,armor points,ammo counts, weapons carried at the time you leave the server. And those servers are not reallypersistent in the MMO sense,namely, a persistentgame world rather than asingle map or set of unrelatedrotating maps. Plus, those games don't support a large enough number of players.
truewildman wrote:
Amuro0079 wrote:
LRRCP wrote:
Even with1 millionpeople playing online doesn't mean it's MMO. To qualify as a MMO game, the server statesmust be persistent, i.e, there must be a persistent universe/world where the game continues playing regardless of whether or not anyone else is.
It was a 24-7 server setup like SWG with 1 hour down time for server maint....
by your standards a sever with 10 people like many being runfor freelancer would qualify as a MMO game since most are on 24-7 and are persistent.
Persistent also means everyone's progress is being tracked. If you lose your progress when you leave the server, then it's not MMO, regardless of the server being run 24/7.I havenever playedmultiplayer mode inFreelancer, but if the server can keep everyone's progress even after server reboot and people leaving and coming, then it is indeed a small MMO.
BTW, it's not my standard. It's how MMO is defined and is different fromother type of multiplayer games.
Message Edited by Amuro0079 on 12-27-2004 01:59 PM
So, by that definition, FPS's like Quake2 and Quake3 are also MMO's, as the servers are persistent, and it keeps track of your progress, i.e. frags per hour, total frags, times died versus frags, etc.
Message Edited by Amuro0079 on 12-28-2004 01:32 PM
Amuro0079
Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:03 pm
#58
LRRCP wrote:
Amuro0079 wrote:
I edited my previous post, go check it.
EDIT
I didn't say MMO has only one requirement. It has to be persisitent and has support for thousands of players at the same time to be considered as MMO. If either one is false, then the game is not MMO. Freelancer isn't quite MMO, strictly speaking.
Message Edited by Amuro0079 on 12-27-2004 02:50 PM
http://archive.gamespy.com/amdmmog/week1/
You will notice that Thousands of players is not used in the article.
That article didn't give any definition of MMO. While it didn't mention 'thousands of players', it did mention persistent worldand 'larger number of players' through out the article.
LRRCP wrote:
I thinkit's thepeople whocame up with the term Massive Multiplayer Online. There's indeed a definition somewhere if you search google
It is a abbreviation of a term made up for marketing purpose.
Massive multi player sounds better to the consumer then Multi player.
there is no standard in the industry that defines what a MMO game is and MMORPG could also beused to describemany of the early on line text based RPG games.
these terms are generic.
Why bother? Why not just use terms like network or multiplayer to describe those early games? Plain and simple, isn't it? I don't understand why you feel the urge to stick MMO in front of every multiplayer game that supports 100+ players.
And if you want definition of MMO here's one:
http://apstc.sun.com.sg/~gaming/MMOG1.html
Message Edited by Amuro0079 on 12-28-2004 01:44 PM
TotalJerk
Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:56 pm
#59
It is true that the GCW has no point. There is no way to tell which side is winning. The last contest we had between the factions was the whole cries of alderaan series.
I see no problem with having kill counters or badges that score pvp accomplishments. There has to be some incentive out there for people that want to fight each other.
TotalJerk
Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:02 am
#60
I don't think its fair to say that SWG is not a PVP game. I think it has a strong PVE aspect, but PVP is part of it as well. Players can fight each other, and destroy each other's property. There is a PVP rating that tracks the quality of your kills. Something along the line of /showpvp might be cool to have in space.
I really dont think that there are any unbalance issues with adding PVP content. If PVE'ers dont wish to PVP, then they wont be interested in that type of content to begin with right. We arent talking special uber loot here, its just a badge, ora rating indicator. Maybe the devs will be gracious and give us some generic PVP missions that Alliance and Imps can both join in on. Wouldnt that be great.
Blackjack_Nova
Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:33 am
#61
At the very core, PvP is dynamic content. Players cango through static content very quickly. When all of the games content has been seen and experianced, then PvP becomes the one activity that is always new, dynamic and challanging. This is the very reason why the developers want people toPvP, because thevery nature of the game
changes once you start to PvP, you are making your ownadventurerather then looking for it to be developed.
In time, most PvE'ers cross over to a PvP game. That is why the DEV team is working on the Combat Upgrade. Because itneeds to allow this cross over to take place, withboth the casual players and hardcore players.
Ok back onto the subject at hand. A Kill Board incantinasthat displayies your stats would be just about the coolest thing thattheycould do.Ask anyone who every played Wing Commander, if that dang Kill Board did not push them to do better then the next pilot on the list...
changes once you start to PvP, you are making your ownadventurerather then looking for it to be developed.
In time, most PvE'ers cross over to a PvP game. That is why the DEV team is working on the Combat Upgrade. Because itneeds to allow this cross over to take place, withboth the casual players and hardcore players.
Ok back onto the subject at hand. A Kill Board incantinasthat displayies your stats would be just about the coolest thing thattheycould do.Ask anyone who every played Wing Commander, if that dang Kill Board did not push them to do better then the next pilot on the list...
Slarus
Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:59 am
#62
I don't think its fair to say that SWG is not a PVP game. I think it has a strong PVE aspect, but PVP is part of it as well. Players can fight each other, and destroy each other's property. There is a PVP rating that tracks the quality of your kills. Something along the line of /showpvp might be cool to have in space.
I really dont think that there are any unbalance issues with adding PVP content. If PVE'ers dont wish to PVP, then they wont be interested in that type of content to begin with right. We arent talking special uber loot here, its just a badge, ora rating indicator. Maybe the devs will be gracious and give us some generic PVP missions that Alliance and Imps can both join in on. Wouldnt that be great.
I think it is very fair to say SWG is not a PvP game, again 35 prefessions and not one requires any PvP for advancement, the only thing that requires PvP is FRS which is not needed and most people hate anyway. As much as you'd like to believe it SWG is not a PvP game, the CGW doesnt hinge on it, not one aspect of the game hinges on PvP performance.
As for PvP content your confusing my words, I agree there should be CONTENT not REWARDS for PvP. Missions and goals, not loots and badges please dont change my words as you often do. A rating indicator for BOTH PvP and PvE is appropriate but a badge is a distictive reward and is not balanced as PvP is a minor element in the game. A Badge is special and not warrented.
Slarus
Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:08 am
#63
At the very core, PvP is dynamic content. Players cango through static content very quickly. When all of the games content has been seen and experianced, then PvP becomes the one activity that is always new, dynamic and challanging. This is the very reason why the developers want people toPvP, because thevery nature of the game
changes once you start to PvP, you are making your ownadventurerather then looking for it to be developed.
changes once you start to PvP, you are making your ownadventurerather then looking for it to be developed.
How so? In JTL maybe since that comes down to who gets to fire first so almost anyone can win in an encounter. The ground game has no dynamic in PvP and you know it. It all comes down to who has the better macros and more defensive template. The same person will win almost consistantly, it will be at least enough to form a statistical basis that would show certain types will win consistantly.
In time, most PvE'ers cross over to a PvP game. That is why the DEV team is working on the Combat Upgrade. Because itneeds to allow this cross over to take place, withboth the casual players and hardcore players.
In time, most PvE'ers cross over to a PvP game. That is why the DEV team is working on the Combat Upgrade. Because itneeds to allow this cross over to take place, withboth the casual players and hardcore players.
There is no statisical data to support this, in fact subscribers tend to flock to games, in the US, that have little to no PvP at all.
Ok back onto the subject at hand. A Kill Board incantinasthat displayies your stats would be just about the coolest thing thattheycould do.Ask anyone who every played Wing Commander, if that dang Kill Board did not push them to do better then the next pilot on the list...
Ok back onto the subject at hand. A Kill Board incantinasthat displayies your stats would be just about the coolest thing thattheycould do.Ask anyone who every played Wing Commander, if that dang Kill Board did not push them to do better then the next pilot on the list...
I like this idea I had suggested a kill counter as a title you can wear overhead and leader stats on the starship terms it would be customizable so you could show PC kills, NPC kills, or both or even nonesame with tracking leaders you would have catagories to file through on the starship terms, or you can ignore it all the power is yours. It would be fair and balanced, PvPers with egos can proudly display thier record right on top of thier head.
It gives all the ego to PvPers without diminishing the game for PvEers.
Blackjack_Nova
Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:32 am
#64
Slarus - Jedi get "Badges" for PvP right now. Find a Jediand do an examine on him/her, scroll to the bottom of the badge list and you will see a listing of other Jedi they have defeated.
Has this feature changed the balance of the game for PvEers? If it has, I don't see how. What it has done however is made the game more enjoyable for Jedi, who have to PvP as part of there progression up the Jedi tree.
For pilots in JTL a Kill Board would be much better then a badge, but that aside, the reward of recognition is what
is really needed. Every sport has some kind of recognition giving PvPers some kind of recognition is what motivates them to speed the time, money and affort to engage in PvP. PvPer's and PvEer's choose diffrent play styles, and some folks that enjoy one sytle do cross over to the other or change from day to day. It does not make sense to limit the choices that a player can make unless the choice of one playstyle over the other is going to create a situation where griefing occurs. There is a massive amount of content that is only accessable though PvE methods right now. Every theame parks rewards and badges can only be obtained through PvE, therefore
forcing people who PvP go through a PvE experiance. Now is that fair? Applying your logic, it is not fair.
Seperating PvPers and PvEers into diffrent camps only works to a certain point, I would go so far as to say the
diffrent playstyles must have diffrent rewards in order for both camps to be happy.
Does a PvPer really care about going though the Jabba theame park to get a painting? Nope. But if they want it they have to. Does a PvEer care about the kill the Jedi enclave? Well if they want to go up the ladder they have to!
The two play styles both need rewards for what motivates them. That is the fact of the matter, otherwise, people will look someplace else to meet there needs and that would not be a good game design.
Has this feature changed the balance of the game for PvEers? If it has, I don't see how. What it has done however is made the game more enjoyable for Jedi, who have to PvP as part of there progression up the Jedi tree.
For pilots in JTL a Kill Board would be much better then a badge, but that aside, the reward of recognition is what
is really needed. Every sport has some kind of recognition giving PvPers some kind of recognition is what motivates them to speed the time, money and affort to engage in PvP. PvPer's and PvEer's choose diffrent play styles, and some folks that enjoy one sytle do cross over to the other or change from day to day. It does not make sense to limit the choices that a player can make unless the choice of one playstyle over the other is going to create a situation where griefing occurs. There is a massive amount of content that is only accessable though PvE methods right now. Every theame parks rewards and badges can only be obtained through PvE, therefore
forcing people who PvP go through a PvE experiance. Now is that fair? Applying your logic, it is not fair.
Seperating PvPers and PvEers into diffrent camps only works to a certain point, I would go so far as to say the
diffrent playstyles must have diffrent rewards in order for both camps to be happy.
Does a PvPer really care about going though the Jabba theame park to get a painting? Nope. But if they want it they have to. Does a PvEer care about the kill the Jedi enclave? Well if they want to go up the ladder they have to!
The two play styles both need rewards for what motivates them. That is the fact of the matter, otherwise, people will look someplace else to meet there needs and that would not be a good game design.
TotalJerk
Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:51 am
#65
At the beginning of the SWG launch PVP was abondant. There used to be hundreds of people squaring off between Anchorhead and Bestine on a daily basis. I believe people stopped playing because of balance issues, and player cities. It was a time before buffs, jedi, and templates. For the most part it was really fun.
The fact that you dont see an overt that often in these places has more to do with the quality of the PVP game. When the devs fix the problems I believe people will return to it.
As far as SWG being a PVP or PVE game, I guess thats a subjective issue. You say its not a PVP game because it doesnt require it, I say that PVP is a part of it, because you can engage in it. Maybe its fair to say that PVP is an aspect of SWG that people can choose to enjoy if they wish.
I agree with you on the loot being unbalanced. I don't agree with you that a badge is unbalanced since it does not offer any advantage in the game whatsoever. I also agree with you on the rating issue.
I gather from your tone that you may be misunderstandingmy posts as a personal attack. That is not my intention. Nor is it my intention to change your words. I dont write in the same format as you do responding to people line by line. I sometimes respond in one paragraph, then write whatever comes into my head. Not everything I write is a direct response, or rebuttal to your ideas. If I have made a mistake then I will acknowledge it in writing. If I differ in opinion from you, thats all it is. I hope you take this what it is, a discussion, not an attack, and change your tone.
Message Edited by TotalJerk on 12-28-2004 10:57 AM