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Thread: To those who feel that the unwilling should be forced into PvP to master Pilot....
FalinMor wrote:
GotEgg wrote:
FalinMor wrote:
I agree. That's not a reason.
Although, Jedi are a bit different. From the getgo it was stated that Jedi would be hunted by NPCs and PCs alike. No such statements were ever made for mastering the pilot professions.
Falin
From the getgo the devs stated that space would be a dangerous place - Please see my previous post in this thread about danger.
It IS a dangerous place. The Master missions are already unsoloable as they currently are, even without being harassed by other players. The the manual and old loading screens on SWG also say that Dathomir and the Krayt graveyardare dangerous places, but I don't see any permanent PvP there, do you? Dangerous != PvP.
All I'm asking for is a good reason to do it. I doubt I'll ever get one.
Falin
So what your saying is that mission should be done on your own? They are trying to give players a reasonto fight each other, it would have been better if they had made faction ships perma-overt.
Message Edited by Faraed on 10-28-2004 11:52 AM
This is too funny....I constantly hear about /waaaaah professions are tooooo easy to be mastered..../waaaaaaaaaaahhhh......PvP is dead................/waaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh.....
Faraed wrote:
FalinMor wrote:
You completely missed the point. I personally do see it as a challenge, and I will do the missions the way they are. I like PvP just fine.
But people like you and me need to realize that WE ARE THE MINORITY. Most peopleDON'T LIKE PvP, and resent being forced into it. You can't say "to make it harder" is a valid reason to force a bunch of people to do something they hate, because there are other ways to make things harder.
Is it "whining" or "crying" when you complain that you're being forced to do something you don't like for no good reason? No. It's valid complaint.
The mistake that you and many others are consistently making is that you're applying your own personal opinions about what's fun and not fun on everyone else. That's simply not valid. To you, PvP is fun and a challenge. To me, it's fun and a challenge. To many, many other people, it's something they hate and want to avoid, and something that will RUIN their fun.
What makes you so special that your idea of fun is so much more valid than theirs that you get to enforce yours and take theirs away? They're not trying to force you out of PvP, so why are you trying to force them into it?
Falin
Most people in this game are hipocrits, get that straight first of all. Lets not make excuses or explanations for their actions or their statements.
THese hipocrits who claim to dislike pvp are not telling the whole story. I have been in SWG since early beta, ive seen alot and know alot of people.MOST of the people in this game who dislike pvp only dislike pvp IN THIS GAME, meaning the ground game. And whose to blame them? Im an avid pvper and even I admit that the pvp system in the ground game here sucks. But when these people get tired of playing SWG they turn around and log into Counterstrike, or BAttlefield 1942, or UT2k4, Battlefront, or Doom3 and go frag up some people on the internet, hipocrisy at its best!! They dont hate PVP, they just hate PVP in this game.
Who's really forcing who into pvp? This game since day 1 has been developed with the PVP system as the focal point of the game. Optional pvp was the most retarded implementation ever for a game whos focal point is around a GALACTIC CIVIL WAR. And its lame once again that they are allowing people to go into space in a TIE FIGHTER, covert and unattackable.
There have been many other MMO's in history that had forced pvp. Some of them were just as popular as swg and believe it or not, many of these so-called "anti-pvp'ers" from swg were around and pvp'ing in those games.
Everyones just scared that pvp in space is going to suck as badly as it does on the ground. BUt the fact of the matter is that the space system is totally different. If you suck at pvp in space its just because you suck, not because you are ill equipped. You cant even really claim that you are being forced into it because once you become master, if you dont enjoy pvp, you dont ever have to engage in it again. Its not a permanent thing. Its not even a guaranteed thing. There is no guarantee that you will even encounter any pvp at all on your way to master pilot.
No one knows because everyone is too busy complaining about it to actually try it out. It makes you wonder if any of these peoples mothers ever taught them, "dont judge a book by its cover," or "dont knock it 'till you try it."
Absolutely, utterly untrue. In ANY MMORPG that isn't a fulltime PvP one, the majority of players don't like PvP. Look at the numbers. It rarely has to do with the quality of the actual PvP experience a game has to offer, it has to do with what people like and what they don't. Someone saying that they don't like PvP doesn't automatically make them hypocrites. It just makes them different than you.
And no, the focal point of this game has NEVER specifically been PvP. Like most MMORPGs, the PvP system was kind of an afterthought and has always been the runty step-child when it comes to developer attention. And why is this? Cause most players don't participate in PvP!
As for your "don't knock it til you've tried it" comment, that's not a bad sentiment at all. I think more people should try PvP. But forcing them to is the absolute WORST way you can get them to enjoy it, as I've said numerous times on this thread.
Falin
Ground based PvP is totally borked. For that matter the whole combat system is a bit.. well.. kinda boring at the moment. But, as an MMO it's to be expected. Get buffed, join group, target enemy, hit some function keys, done.
The difference I like is that in space you have to actually get the other guy under your sights. Sure, there's some groovey little abilities but all in all it still comes down to who can get the most rounds on target. Now that may mean that only the best pilots end up mastering the Ace title. Isn't that the way it should be? Shouldn't an "ACE" be considered one of the best of the best?
No FRS exploits to get there, no Geno cave spawns to grind, just your skills against mine. To me that is the best addition they have made to this game. Finally you won't see the guy with the best armour or stacking template winning. It's going to be about how well you fly. If you can't rack up enough kills to warrant the title of "ACE" then well, it's because you're not one.
In no way is this a flame or boast. Lord knows it will take anyone a longtime before they will be able to master it anyway. Last round of beta I don't think there were any Ace's and if there were it was very few. I have faith in my piloting skills because I have 12 years of flight sim exp and those are the types of online games I used to play (still do Aces High, WW2 online...). For the first time in over a year the GCW is beginning to heat up again. Now if they could make it so you can land/launch your ship in the hanger of a faction base... they could finally make those worth having again.
I know this is probably just going to be like everything else in SWG. People will complain because they can't get to the top easily. I believe it gives us something to shoot for though. I've been anticipating JTL because it does breathe new life into the GCW. Also having been a part of the Beta PVP weekend I can tell you this... things are not as bad as this thread leads you to believe.
Faraed wrote:
Most people in this game are hipocrits, get that straight first of all. Lets not make excuses or explanations for their actions or their statements.
THese hipocrits who claim to dislike pvp are not telling the whole story. I have been in SWG since early beta, ive seen alot and know alot of people.MOST of the people in this game who dislike pvp only dislike pvp IN THIS GAME, meaning the ground game. And whose to blame them? Im an avid pvper and even I admit that the pvp system in the ground game here sucks. But when these people get tired of playing SWG they turn around and log into Counterstrike, or BAttlefield 1942, or UT2k4, Battlefront, or Doom3 and go frag up some people on the internet, hipocrisy at its best!! They dont hate PVP, they just hate PVP in this game.
Obviously you haven't got a good grasp on who plays MMOs. They attract far more people from a vastly different backgroundthan you would imagine. People who wouldn't even bother to even glance at FPS games like Counter-Strike and Battlefield plays MMOs. That is not to say that CS, BF 1942 and UT2k4 gamers don't play MMOs, they do. But making overly generalized statements like this one is just to make flawed statements.
Sure, the PVP system in the ground game sucks, and if it were in a better shape PVP would be more alive. But you need to look at other MMOs to make a statement like this one you just made. Look at all other MMOs and then tell me: Does the majority of MMO gamers like PVP or PVE?
You would be surprised.
FalinMor wrote:
Almightyrastus wrote:
I am in no way against PvP or think that is has no valid point in this game. It is just not for me, I have never liked it.
I have engaged in PvP inanother game I was partaking in the beta testing ona couple of times when we were asked to test that part out and it did nothing for me at all. If people like yourself want to look down on me because I didn't gain my master status 'by working as hard as you did' then fine, do that if you want, just leave me alone to play the game how I want to play it and don't force me into participating in something I just don't like.
To all the people in this thread who want to force PvP:
This is the majority. Most players feel this way. Why do you think you're better than they are and want to force your playstyle on them? I don't see them doing the same to you.
Falin
Do you wnat to know why your theory here doesnt work out? I'll tell you why.
PVP in this game drastically needs some sort of a reward. PERIOD. Any kind of a reward would suffice right now. One thing you gotta understand, as much as you wish it werent so, this game is designed for PVP. It is the focal point of the game. This is a game about a civil war, not the extermination of critters in the landscape. The reason that civil war isnt raging is due to lack of reward. Whatever reward they put in the game must be some sort of high level, highly coveted reward for it to serve its purpose. There must be some sort of loss vs gain system here. Participants feel the gain, non-participants feel the loss or restriction of access.
So lets assume for a second that they reverse this little change you guys want and take master missions out of the pvp zone and allow everyone to master pilot without engaging in pvp. They will be forced to eventually implement another reward of some sorts for pvp'ers. You know what will happen then?
All of these people who whine and complain about not wanting to PVP are going to whine and complain that they want what the PVP'ers have, but they dont feel they should be "forced to pvp" to get it. Its a never ending cycle. The line has to be drawn somewhere between what the devs will listen to and what they wont. Its this kind of attitude that leads to lack of high end content in this game. Everything cant be open to everyone. Certain items, milestones and accomplishements have to be restricted to certain types of gameplay for them to be accurate rewards. You want the master pilot reward? Then fulfill the requirements whether you like them, or not because THAT IS WHAT ACHIEVEMENT IS ALL ABOUT.
Vegitaa wrote:
Ground based PvP is totally borked. For that matter the whole combat system is a bit.. well.. kinda boring at the moment. But, as an MMO it's to be expected. Get buffed, join group, target enemy, hit some function keys, done.
The difference I like is that in space you have to actually get the other guy under your sights. Sure, there's some groovey little abilities but all in all it still comes down to who can get the most rounds on target. Now that may mean that only the best pilots end up mastering the Ace title. Isn't that the way it should be? Shouldn't an "ACE" be considered one of the best of the best?
No FRS exploits to get there, no Geno cave spawns to grind, just your skills against mine. To me that is the best addition they have made to this game. Finally you won't see the guy with the best armour or stacking template winning. It's going to be about how well you fly. If you can't rack up enough kills to warrant the title of "ACE" then well, it's because you're not one.
In no way is this a flame or boast. Lord knows it will take anyone a longtime before they will be able to master it anyway. Last round of beta I don't think there were any Ace's and if there were it was very few. I have faith in my piloting skills because I have 12 years of flight sim exp and those are the types of online games I used to play (still do Aces High, WW2 online...). For the first time in over a year the GCW is beginning to heat up again. Now if they could make it so you can land/launch your ship in the hanger of a faction base... they could finally make those worth having again.
I know this is probably just going to be like everything else in SWG. People will complain because they can't get to the top easily. I believe it gives us something to shoot for though. I've been anticipating JTL because it does breathe new life into the GCW. Also having been a part of the Beta PVP weekend I can tell you this... things are not as bad as this thread leads you to believe.
First off, the beta PvP weekend has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about. Just to get that out of the way.
I'll also say that I'm excited about JTL for many of the same reasons you are. PvP on the ground is lame, and I think PvP in space will be much better and will breathe new life into the GCW. It will ENCOURAGE more people to get involved. I think that's fantastic.
What I don't think is fantastic is FORCING people to be involved in PvP. Nothing good has ever come of that. Ever.
Falin
Faraed wrote:
Do you wnat to know why your theory here doesnt work out? I'll tell you why.
PVP in this game drastically needs some sort of a reward. PERIOD. Any kind of a reward would suffice right now. One thing you gotta understand, as much as you wish it werent so, this game is designed for PVP. It is the focal point of the game. This is a game about a civil war, not the extermination of critters in the landscape. The reason that civil war isnt raging is due to lack of reward. Whatever reward they put in the game must be some sort of high level, highly coveted reward for it to serve its purpose. There must be some sort of loss vs gain system here. Participants feel the gain, non-participants feel the loss or restriction of access.
So lets assume for a second that they reverse this little change you guys want and take master missions out of the pvp zone and allow everyone to master pilot without engaging in pvp. They will be forced to eventually implement another reward of some sorts for pvp'ers. You know what will happen then?
All of these people who whine and complain about not wanting to PVP are going to whine and complain that they want what the PVP'ers have, but they dont feel they should be "forced to pvp" to get it. Its a never ending cycle. The line has to be drawn somewhere between what the devs will listen to and what they wont. Its this kind of attitude that leads to lack of high end content in this game. Everything cant be open to everyone. Certain items, milestones and accomplishements have to be restricted to certain types of gameplay for them to be accurate rewards. You want the master pilot reward? Then fulfill the requirements whether you like them, or not because THAT IS WHAT ACHIEVEMENT IS ALL ABOUT.
Again I say, absolutely untrue. This game was absolutely NOT designed with PvP as the focal point. It was not.
And now I have to ask: why do you see the ability of people who like PvP to kill people who don't like PvP as a reward? In the current system, you're not "rewarding the PvPer" by giving them a Master box. You're making people do things they hate in order to get it. It makes no sense.
Besides, after seeing all this stuff about "challenge" and whatnot, why all this talk about rewards? I thought the challenge WAS the reward. At least, that's how I've always felt about it. What other reward is needed? PvPers are the "ultimate gamers" after all, aren't they? At least, that's what so many claim.
Falin