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Thread: Concerning the Pro's of Forced PvP Mastership......
HettarII wrote:
When I first started playing the game I thought it'd be cool to be able to play a jedi before I was done. After seeing how totally messed up they made it I accepted the fact that i wouldn't ever play one.
This whole PvPing for master is basically the samething. They aren't forcing you to do it. In fact by the sounds of it alot of people will never master the profession. This doesn't "break" the game since if you don't like PvP then any extra skills a "master" will have won't affect you. If the people around you have the same basic skills as you do it's still a level playing field so to speak.
I don't have alot of time left to write alot but think about this...
For those people who say "why should a small percentage of players be the only ones to be able to do this". My response is look at all the time they put into redoing the jedi system when only a very few people were Jedi. They basically said through their actions that a few jedi were more important then the majority of the player base. We'd have to wait for months for them to finish before they'd even consider fixing our professions that never worked right since launch.
Now that they're pretty much done with the Jedi system if you don't want to be one all that stuff they added doesn't do anything for you.
My point is if you make theaugument that you shouldn't have to be "forced" into pvp to master one profession in the game then I guess I shouldn't have to be "forced" into completeing all their lame ass, no imagination BS they make you do to unlock your Jedi slot. I can't do "everything" in the game if I decide not to do the jedi crap. I'm fine with that.
Why do you guys have such a problem with just comming to grips with the idea that if PvP isn't your thing then there is going to be something that you won't be able to do also. I mean it's only the master box isn't it?
And in this "only the master box" are all multiplayer ships except the schoolbus... umm party barge.
Message Edited by Eldana on 10-27-2004 05:25 AM
Message Edited by StylerNaku on 10-27-2004 05:37 AM
StylerNaku wrote:
Look this is starwars.
STAR-WARS. as in wars ammong the stars right.
You seriously telling me you wanted to go for a lovely long ride in your shiny new xwing without having a silly fight with a silly tie fighter.
What exactly do you want...to play a game resembling starwars...or play a toned down tiny toons play starwars version?
There are power players yes...but remeber there are power players..ON BOTH sides of the conflict...it's a natural solution alike to going hunting in a pack just out of anchor head for squills, you will group up with a wing to earn your last flight skills, a wing who if you're sensible will have power players leading you in the fray. This is excellent it's exactly what starwars was about...in the first released film you could say porkins, wedge, luke, dakk... all power players... for once something brought out by SOE will resemble starwars in a proper timeline like fasion!
It's the only thing they have ever done right if you ask me, you're lucky it isn't 100 PVP from the beginning but I remeber a point when it was going to be! You wont be able to go out and solo anything this time, you will have to do it again like in the film fashion, you will have to have your guild, or a group with you. Look whats the problem people group for sharnaff hunts, people group for squills, people group for rancs...now you will group near a starport terminal for opposing real players...ABOUT TIME!
Styler
Message Edited by StylerNaku on 10-27-2004 05:37 AM
Did you read this thread at all? It is not about grouping it is about FORCED PvP!
And I doubt you will find a group that is willing to help you for hours to do your mastermissions in Kessel.
No one has a problem to group. But we have a problem to be forced into a PvP zone for a PvE mission.
- Start with a noobie ship by yourself in some good old PVE action
- Get used to the controls
- Get used to upgrading your ship
- Further developgood fighting skills
- Start making serious choices about ship usage and what works for you
- Develop better situational awareness
- Introduction to missions that are difficult to solo
- Finalize and develop your style
- Engage in extreme PVE
- Learn how to use your groupmates strengths and weaknesses
Ace - Master Time
- Introduction to PVP
- Extreme group style missions
Post-Ace
- Mutli-player ships (FINALLY!)
- Extreme PVP (help others with PVE if needed since there are no more advancing missions)
- Enjoy your master level equipment knowing that you faced one of the hardest challenges this game has to offer
Uther27 wrote:
Alright feel free to one-star this one as well.
This is the system they have implemented. They want you to try it.No, they FORCE my to try itThe Devs have stated this. That is the reason you have to go to a PVP zone to get master. You can doom and gloom about it all you want, they are not going to change it for a long while, if ever. I agree with the Devs on this, and I think more people will too once they have done it.
They want Ace pilot to really mean something. I know all of the people that are not on board with this are fine with calling themselves master of whatever profession without doing something actually intrinsic to being a "master" of their profession, that's fine. But for once the Devs have upped the ante and done something that makes sense. You cannot be an Ace without putting yourself in serious harm's way. There is nothing, I repeat NOTHING, that even comes close to it. Any alternatives would be selling yourself short and you know it.
Here is the Devs plan as I see it, feel free to point out how wrong this is.
Tier 1 - Novice (Orientation)
- Start with a noobie ship by yourself in some good old PVE action
- Get used to the controls
Tier 2 - Not the FNG anymore
- Get used to upgrading your ship
- Further developgood fighting skills
Tier 3 - Old hand
- Start making serious choices about ship usage and what works for you
- Develop better situational awareness
- Introduction to missions that are difficult to solo
Tier 4 - Almost Master
- Finalize and develop your style
- Engage in extreme PVE
- Learn how to use your groupmates strengths and weaknesses
Ace - Master Time
- Introduction to PVP
- Get ganked by the griefsquad
- Start to hate PvP
- Start to hate the PvP guys
- Extreme group style missions
Post-Ace
- Mutli-player ships (FINALLY!)
- Extreme PVP (help others with PVE if needed since there are no more advancing missions)
- Enjoy your master level equipment knowing that you faced one of the hardest challenges this game has to offer
I agree, there will most likely be griefing. The Devs will most likely be looking into ways of preventing griefing, i.e. killing people that are still loading. For what it's worth, I plan on spending a good portion of my time post-Ace helping anyone that asks to complete their Ace missions. When I'm not doing that, I'll most likely be starting fights with anyone who thinks that attacking people that are loading into these zones iscool. I know others will do the same, do you know why? Because, PVP in this system is actually fun and does not involve building macros and overpowered professions. Thesystem is as balanced as it can be, given that there are variables in equipment levels.
Thanks that you might help people but most will shoot first and then ask.
So to sum it up, quit freaking out about a term that has been slapped onto this situation. Give it a chance to pan out before denouncing it as the worst thing ever. Let "Ace" mean something and not be like all of the other professions. And please, quit trying to change something that you have not even gotten close to doing yet!
Uther27 wrote:
You are completely right. They are forcing you to PVP to master the Pilot profession in a game. Is that so bad the you scream till you are blue in the face? They want you to try it out. It is based on your skill and not the computer making random rolls for you. When you get there just do it and be done with it, it will be OK. The world will not come to an end because you went into a PVP zone.
Everytime I see someone compaining about something so simple it drives me crazy. Just try it for crying out loud! That's all the Devs want, they want you to get a small taste of PVP. They are waiting to make you do it until you have access to avery capable ship. You have to do TWO count them TWO missions in a PVP zone.
It sounds like you are all just a bunch of big babies that can't handle a teeny bit of possible challenge.
A fair challenge, maybe. But this is far from fair.
It goes above and beyond for putting the "casual" gamer at a disadvantage, and the fact that all of the people beating the crap out of you in Kessel 10 seconds after you load will have more skills and better equipment than you. So honestly, if you want to fight one of them after they've spent weeks looting really high end NPC's and getting great equipment, it may take you 5-10 of your 4444 buddies to take down ONE player. And they're not doing a mission, they're only hunting players, so they'll be back in less than 10 minutes to do it again.
I have tried it, many times. I have also tried PvP, and I have to simply disagree with you. PvP that is straight up punishment with no reward "except the fight" is not fun to me. It's also not fun to many other people. I don't want to spend 5 or 6 hours on the ground to cover the cost of one hour of PvP combat, and I don't want to do it in space either. No matter how the "encourage" me to try it out. I'm not going to destroy every part in my ship six times over to "attempt" a single mission, that's just insane.
Sure, PvP games are popular, and most of them are loot based and don't envolve things like decay. This game is very different from most of the MMO's in that respect. And yes, this game IS about a war, but not everyone is envolved in combat on a daily basis. Many many people are supporting characters. Granted a lot of people these days simply get alts, but people like me enjoy playing those supporting roles.
I'll play PvP in a FPS all day long and have fun at it, because the whole time I'm not seeing a big counter in my head counting up the loss of every single hit I take. A challenge is good sometimes, but this goes beyond a challenge. Anyone who earns the 7.5 million XP the old fasion way should at least be able to train the master box.
Many may not feel you have "earned" master at that point, but I also don't think beating up on people that have 1/10th of the skill/equipment as you earns you any respect either. The people that enjoy these missions the most will be the same ones that get their jollies off throwing on advanced composite, getting buffed 3k to every stat anddueling people in newb clothes cause THEY think it's funny.
Sure, the "idea" sounds good, but heck, communism sounds good on paper, it just don't work when you throw people in the mix.
Vicotnik wrote:
Nacoa wrote:
Tover wrote:
You have to stay in the PvP zone for hours.
No. Your 2 missions are to kill 30 NPC targets or to kill a Corvette that spawns about every hour. You do not have to stay in Kessel for hours to acomplish either.
That's complete BS. Just finding the 30 NPC targets for the first mission took hours on beta, and will take longer on the live servers as there will be more people fighting over the spawns.
What, did you stay in one place the entire time? There's always Rebel and Imperial NPCs hyperspacing into the zone. Fly around and you'll find 30 fairly quickly. It'll take a while but most definately not hours.
And since all you do after that is claim I'm lying, then I really don't see the point in responding to you. You do nothing but say "NUH UH!!!!" and make some claims that don't make sense. For example, killing a Corvette only takes about a minute once you know what you should be shooting at, so your claim that you'd run out of time is just dumb. The danger is the volume of fire against you, which can kill you in a few seconds, as well as the usual escorts of several fighters and gunboats.
Steps:
-Type /way before you attack, so you can find the Corvette again if you die.
-Blow off it's weapons- you better get this done fast, at least with weapons 0-5.
-Kill the 2 shield generators- takes about 15 seconds.
-Kill engines- takes about 2 seconds.
-Kill reactor- takes about 2 seconds.
-Kill bridge- takes about 2 seconds.
Look, there will be PvP people in the zone. They'll be fighting mission takers and other PvP'ers. There also will be non-PvP people in the zone. They're pretty easy to identify. If you don't want to PvP, don't fly within about 2km of an enemy PC. If they likewise don't want to PvP they'll ignore you. If they do want to PvP, you've got time to get ready for it.
And I still don't think it'll end up as a major gank fest, simply because there are going to be hardcore PvPers on both sides. They'll have to spend some time fighting each other and thus the players themselves will solve the problem by playing the game. The only danger I see is if the spawn points are not random or random enough so that they can be camped. They were pretty random when I did the master missions, and the devs also made all players invulnerable during loading and a few seconds after.
Basically, I'm uneasy about master missions in a PvP zone, but I also think the anti-PvP people are overstating the potential griefing by several magnitudes.
Message Edited by Nacoa on 10-27-2004 01:46 PM
Uther27 wrote:
Alright feel free to one-star this one as well.
This is the system they have implemented. They want you to try it. The Devs have stated this. That is the reason you have to go to a PVP zone to get master. You can doom and gloom about it all you want, they are not going to change it for a long while, if ever. I agree with the Devs on this, and I think more people will too once they have done it.
They want Ace pilot to really mean something. I know all of the people that are not on board with this are fine with calling themselves master of whatever profession without doing something actually intrinsic to being a "master" of their profession, that's fine. But for once the Devs have upped the ante and done something that makes sense. You cannot be an Ace without putting yourself in serious harm's way. There is nothing, I repeat NOTHING, that even comes close to it. Any alternatives would be selling yourself short and you know it.
Here is the Devs plan as I see it, feel free to point out how wrong this is.
Tier 1 - Novice (Orientation)
- Start with a noobie ship by yourself in some good old PVE action
- Get used to the controls
Tier 2 - Not the FNG anymore
- Get used to upgrading your ship
- Further developgood fighting skills
Tier 3 - Old hand
- Start making serious choices about ship usage and what works for you
- Develop better situational awareness
- Introduction to missions that are difficult to solo
Tier 4 - Almost Master
- Finalize and develop your style
- Engage in extreme PVE
- Learn how to use your groupmates strengths and weaknesses
Ace - Master Time
- Introduction to PVP
- Extreme group style missions
Post-Ace
- Mutli-player ships (FINALLY!)
- Extreme PVP (help others with PVE if needed since there are no more advancing missions)
- Enjoy your master level equipment knowing that you faced one of the hardest challenges this game has to offer
I agree, there will most likely be griefing. The Devs will most likely be looking into ways of preventing griefing, i.e. killing people that are still loading. For what it's worth, I plan on spending a good portion of my time post-Ace helping anyone that asks to complete their Ace missions. When I'm not doing that, I'll most likely be starting fights with anyone who thinks that attacking people that are loading into these zones iscool. I know others will do the same, do you know why? Because, PVP in this system is actually fun and does not involve building macros and overpowered professions. Thesystem is as balanced as it can be, given that there are variables in equipment levels.
So to sum it up, quit freaking out about a term that has been slapped onto this situation. Give it a chance to pan out before denouncing it as the worst thing ever. Let "Ace" mean something and not be like all of the other professions. And please, quit trying to change something that you have not even gotten close to doing yet!
Want me to PvP? Give me a reason.
Why should I be Imperial? Or Rebel? What is the benifit?
Is there a war? Because there are no battles. There is nothing to fight over...
SOE can't even manage to keep score, even Duke Nukem could keep score in a PvP game. Until there is a REASON to destroy everything I take my time aquiring in the game, I will not engage in PvP. Why they are asking for here and are too blind to see, is griefing and cheating.
They just flat out asked people to find any way possible to cheat in Kessel is what they did. Once you raise the stakes this high, this is what happens. Just like all of the exploits for experience while people were working on Jedi.
And yes, I have tried the mission, for over a week. The pilot profession is fun, JTL is fun, the graphics are great, the ships are well done, etc, etc, etc. I'm not attacking JTL here, I'm saying these missions are not fun. Everyone can go "you don't know until you try" and "maybe you should just try pvp" all they want. But the simple fact is PvP in this game is worthless.
PvE you get money, resources, experience, loot and possible faction. PvP you loose faction most time and might maybe if you're really good come out even. Gee, why wouldn't I jump on this chance.
Nacoa wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:
Nacoa wrote:
Tover wrote:
You have to stay in the PvP zone for hours.
No. Your 2 missions are to kill 30 NPC targets or to kill a Corvette that spawns about every hour. You do not have to stay in Kessel for hours to acomplish either.
That's complete BS. Just finding the 30 NPC targets for the first mission took hours on beta, and will take longer on the live servers as there will be more people fighting over the spawns.
What, did you stay in one place the entire time? There's always Rebel and Imperial NPCs hyperspacing into the zone. Fly around and you'll find 30 fairly quickly. It'll take a while but most definately not hours.
And since all you do after that is claim I'm lying, then I really don't see the point in responding to you. You do nothing but say "NUH UH!!!!" and make some claims that don't make sense. For example, killing a Corvette only takes about a minute once you know what you should be shooting at, so your claim that you'd run out of time is just dumb. The danger is the volume of fire against you, which can kill you in a few seconds, as well as the usual escorts of several fighters and gunboats.
Steps:
-Type /way before you attack, so you can find the Corvette again if you die.
-Blow off it's weapons- you better get this done fast, at least with weapons 0-5.
-Kill the 2 shield generators- takes about 15 seconds.
-Kill engines- takes about 2 seconds.
-Kill reactor- takes about 2 seconds.
-Kill bridge- takes about 2 seconds.
Look, there will be PvP people in the zone. They'll be fighting mission takers and other PvP'ers. There also will be non-PvP people in the zone. They're pretty easy to identify. If you don't want to PvP, don't fly within about 2km of an enemy PC. If they likewise don't want to PvP they'll ignore you. If they do want to PvP, you've got time to get ready for it.
And I still don't think it'll end up as a major gank fest, simply because there are going to be hardcore PvPers on both sides. They'll have to spend some time fighting each other and thus the players themselves will solve the problem by playing the game. The only danger I see is if the spawn points are not random or random enough so that they can be camped. They were pretty random when I did the master missions, and the devs also made all players invulnerable during loading and a few seconds after.
Basically, I'm uneasy about master missions in a PvP zone, but I also think the anti-PvP people are overstating the potential griefing by several magnitudes.
Message Edited by Nacoa on 10-27-2004 01:46 PM
/agree Nacoa
Some people are acting like the minute you enter space you're in a PvP zone. Folks, this isn't such a big issue. If you don't want to be forced into a PvP experience then don't go to Kessel and don't master pilot. Why would you want master pilot if you don't want to PvP. (And don't say for the ships cause now you're just like those jedi who brandish their sabers in Coronet and then run and /quit whenever a BH takes their mission.)
_______________________________________________________________________
/agree Nacoa
Some people are acting like the minute you enter space you're in a PvP zone. Folks, this isn't such a big issue. If you don't want to be forced into a PvP experience then don't go to Kessel and don't master pilot. Why would you want master pilot if you don't want to PvP. (And don't say for the ships cause now you're just like those jedi who brandish their sabers in Coronet and then run and /quit whenever a BH takes their mission.)
-_______________________________________________________________________
Why must every 10 posts someone like you pop up?
How about me saying if you like to PvP then go and play CS?
What you tell us here is always the same stuff.
GO and come up with something new and something that makes at least sense.
Message Edited by Eldana on 10-27-2004 11:20 AM
TheRealXur wrote:
Snip ... I know what I said.
Want me to PvP? Give me a reason.
Why should I be Imperial? Or Rebel? What is the benifit?
Is there a war? Because there are no battles. There is nothing to fight over...
SOE can't even manage to keep score, even Duke Nukem could keep score in a PvP game. Until there is a REASON to destroy everything I take my time aquiring in the game, I will not engage in PvP. Why they are asking for here and are too blind to see, is griefing and cheating.
They just flat out asked people to find any way possible to cheat in Kessel is what they did. Once you raise the stakes this high, this is what happens. Just like all of the exploits for experience while people were working on Jedi.
And yes, I have tried the mission, for over a week. The pilot profession is fun, JTL is fun, the graphics are great, the ships are well done, etc, etc, etc. I'm not attacking JTL here, I'm saying these missions are not fun. Everyone can go "you don't know until you try" and "maybe you should just try pvp" all they want. But the simple fact is PvP in this game is worthless.
PvE you get money, resources, experience, loot and possible faction. PvP you loose faction most time and might maybe if you're really good come out even. Gee, why wouldn't I jump on this chance.
Message Edited by Uther27 on 10-27-2004 11:35 AM