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TheRealTK421 wrote:

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FalinMor wrote:

Although, Jedi are a bit different.


NO! No different. "Only different in your mind..."

They are the same thing: A 'reward'

For that,there should be risk.


No such statements were ever made for mastering the pilot professions.


They don't have to make such statements about how the systems will work (in every detail).

It doesn't matter...

Mastering in the PvP zone only requires that you be IN the zone (not that you actually fight others).

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Note: I'm getting out of this debate now....cause I don't think it can be 'won' (in a way that will affect a satisfactory game change or system for all players).

/shrug



/bow

Respectfully,

Message Edited by TheRealTK421 on 10-28-2004 10:45 AM

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I'm not sure why you even got involved in it in the first place.

I'm pretty sure you and I agree, but I wasn't talking about existing dynamics. The fact that undesirable dynamics already exist is not a good reason to implement them elsewhere.

Falin

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HiroBlack wrote:

I'm going to get flamed for this for sure, but I have an answer to the "why."

A game like this, a large community where we all have various aliases, provide an area for us to act out our fantasies in, and do so interactively. Some folks use this as an opportunity to be the best person they can be. Others use it as a means of setting loose their inner ... well, I'd usually use a descriptive word here that won't make it past the profanity filter, so instead I'll settle for "inner jerk" as a term.

This doesn't apply to all PvPers, by the way. Many of us are normal enough folks who just enjoy that aspect of the game with other like-minded players. But there are those that want to inflict themselves, and their "superiority," on others by smacking them across a planet (or now across a system) for kicks. It provides them a measure of status among like minded fellows, and props up an already bloated, unstable ego. This ego is not limited to PvP players in this game by the way, I have seen the same elements among crafters, Politicians, guild leaders, etc.

So don't waste time wondering why folks feel that way. They are not able to articulate it, because "I'm getting validation of my existance every time I beat someone in PvP" just comes out as "d00d, ur not kewl, I'm L337 n ub3r n pwn j00" or some such nonsense. Ignore it, get on with your day, and since the system inflicts it on you to master, just do what you have to and get past this hurdle as quickly as possible before turning your back on it for good.

/equip flame retardant suit

Fire away.

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That's pretty much the exact same reason I've come up with, but I was hoping I'd get a REAL, valid reason why it should be this way, and not "because I want to be able to kill you", which is all it's boiled down to so far.

Was I asking too much?

Falin

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FalinMor wrote:

Read my post. There are many good reasons why it's a bad idea to force the unwilling into PvP. The question remains, are there any good reasons TO do it? The answer, so far, is a resounding no.

Falin

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As i said in my post, there's a very good reason to do it... to make space dangerous. And the answer from you, and your supporters is a resounding "no". I will disagree and say that there IS a good reason to do it as stated in my earlier posts. It should be a very difficult task to reach master.

This conversation could go on from now until the end of time. You are against the last mission in the PVP zone, and i am for it... i highly doubt either of us is going to convice the other of their point. Just let me restate for the record that i HIGHLY dislike pvp, but am all for this new system - When i do my master mission (again) i will be sweating bullets trying to get to the mission as fast as i can (again). Hoping that me and my group (yes, you MUST group to finish this mission, which helps you quite a bit on the PVP end) go un-noticed while we destroy our target (again).

When you get to your master mission, you WILL feel it. The sense of danger that you do not get while flying around Dath or Endor. Yeah, the ships are hard... but they're just an annoyance really. In Kessel, the ships flying around are the definition of dangerous.

I have now said all i can say on this subject, and will bow out of this thread. Just consider the things that i have said. All those that have NOT experienced the master mission yet, i ask that you wait until you do - it is a much different experience than you think it is. You're not going into the zone alone and vulnerable, you're not in a little y-wing or scyk. You yourself are in a pretty beefy ship at that point, one that you will most likely use as master also (i flew my a-wing more than the b-wing in beta), you're also going in with a group - If you're not in a group, you're a fool, without a group you will very possibly never destroy your target, let alone make it there. The mission is very engaging, and comes with a great reward... one that should not be handed out lightly.

It's a design choice. They actually made a choice here, instead of trying to be all things to all people. How I wish they'd done that more often in this project .... half the problems in the game are the result of trying to be a little bit of every kind of game (and doing it badly) instead of following a consistent design philosophy and doing it really well.

Some agree with this choice and others don't, but it is SO preferable to just waffling and not making a choice and ending up with a system that shows the failure to act decisively in gory, painful detail.

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And yet, the original question still remains: Why? Can someone please point out one good reason for these missions instead of just repeating what other people have already said a hundred times?

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GotEgg wrote:

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FalinMor wrote:

Read my post. There are many good reasons why it's a bad idea to force the unwilling into PvP. The question remains, are there any good reasons TO do it? The answer, so far, is a resounding no.

Falin

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As i said in my post, there's a very good reason to do it... to make space dangerous. And the answer from you, and your supporters is a resounding "no". I will disagree and say that there IS a good reason to do it as stated in my earlier posts. It should be a very difficult task to reach master.

This conversation could go on from now until the end of time. You are against the last mission in the PVP zone, and i am for it... i highly doubt either of us is going to convice the other of their point. Just let me restate for the record that i HIGHLY dislike pvp, but am all for this new system - When i do my master mission (again) i will be sweating bullets trying to get to the mission as fast as i can (again). Hoping that me and my group (yes, you MUST group to finish this mission, which helps you quite a bit on the PVP end) go un-noticed while we destroy our target (again).

When you get to your master mission, you WILL feel it. The sense of danger that you do not get while flying around Dath or Endor. Yeah, the ships are hard... but they're just an annoyance really. In Kessel, the ships flying around are the definition of dangerous.

I have now said all i can say on this subject, and will bow out of this thread. Just consider the things that i have said. All those that have NOT experienced the master mission yet, i ask that you wait until you do - it is a much different experience than you think it is. You're not going into the zone alone and vulnerable, you're not in a little y-wing or scyk. You yourself are in a pretty beefy ship at that point, one that you will most likely use as master also (i flew my a-wing more than the b-wing in beta), you're also going in with a group - If you're not in a group, you're a fool, without a group you will very possibly never destroy your target, let alone make it there. The mission is very engaging, and comes with a great reward... one that should not be handed out lightly.

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Fair enough. I disagree that making something dangerous has to equal forcing PvP on the unwilling, but I'll leave it at that. The main problem I have is that any system that not only allows grief play, but ENCOURAGES it, is unacceptable and needs to be changed. I won't shut up about it until it is.

Falin

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KzinKiller wrote:
It's a design choice. They actually made a choice here, instead of trying to be all things to all people. How I wish they'd done that more often in this project .... half the problems in the game are the result of trying to be a little bit of every kind of game (and doing it badly) instead of following a consistent design philosophy and doing it really well.

Some agree with this choice and others don't, but it is SO preferable to just waffling and not making a choice and ending up with a system that shows the failure to act decisively in gory, painful detail.

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THIS I can agree with. I am definitely glad they made a stand, I'm just disappointed that they made the WRONG stand.

Falin

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Banshe wrote:

Well felinae posted this in her thread and its in my manual as well, didnt get to go home and test it, but according to the instruction manual that came with the game, the master missions are not in Kessel any more...

page 23: section Gaining Prestige Points

Once you have MASTERED YOUR CHOSEN PROFESSION (meaning that you have all of the skill boxes associated with the profession) you will start earning prestige points. There are Rebel, Imperial and Privateer Prestige points.

These Prestige Points can be exchanged to access high-end player-versus-player areas, including the unknown regions of Deep Space and the spice mine system of KESSEL.

someone go try to enter Kessel without master lol, I am stuck at work for another 3 and a half hours so I cant.

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No, that's not true. The Master missions are still in Kessel... you just can't up and Hyperspace there any time you want until you get Master. You still have to go there for the missions, you just get there a different way.

Falin

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Vegitaa wrote:

Not that I disagree with your reasons for being against this.... actually forcing a player to jump through hoop X to get reward Y is what MMO's are all about. The main issue here is that people are concerned about having to fight real people as pilots.

In all the online flight sims I've ever played you are almost always fighting real people. For instance Airwarrior, Aces High, to name just a few. Honestly I'm not sure why this is such an issue. Especially with so many other bigger issues out there right now.

Fly to Deep Space/Kessel engage any enemy fighter you find. Thats the extent of forcing you to PvP. I'm not sure I see where it's unfair either. To go up in any skillboxes for pilot Prof's you have to gain X amount of exp. So, go to Tat, engage any enemy fighter you can gain exp.

NPC pilots may not have the best equip compared to Players but from what I saw in Beta they can still be a pretty good challenge. I don't believe that actual player pilots will be too much more difficult. Of course you'll have a percentage of really good pilots out there but on average most people should be able to fulfill this requirement for Master pilot.

Either way, you'll be shooting down a whole lot of enemy ships long before this becomes an issue, especially since the exp requirements are so high. Since the last character wipe in early October till they shut down the Beta servers I didn't see any master pilots out there. By the time you've logged hundreds of hours of flight time grinding NPC's you should be able to handle players in much the same manner.

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Vegitaa wrote:

Fly to Deep Space/Kessel engage any enemy fighter you find. Thats the extent of forcing you to PvP. I'm not sure I see where it's unfair either. To go up in any skillboxes for pilot Prof's you have to gain X amount of exp. So, go to Tat, engage any enemy fighter you can gain exp.

NPC pilots may not have the best equip compared to Players but from what I saw in Beta they can still be a pretty good challenge. I don't believe that actual player pilots will be too much more difficult. Of course you'll have a percentage of really good pilots out there but on average most people should be able to fulfill this requirement for Master pilot.

Either way, you'll be shooting down a whole lot of enemy ships long before this becomes an issue, especially since the exp requirements are so high.

** thats all well and good but PC dont count as kills toward your goal, yet if they kill you you start back over from scratch**

Since the last character wipe in early October till they shut down the Beta servers I didn't see any master pilots out there. By the time you've logged hundreds of hours of flight time grinding NPC's you should be able to handle players in much the same manner.

**sorry to proove you wrong again but I started beta 10-8, on 10-14 I was a 4444 rebel pilot took about 13 hours to get there, maybe 15. I then quit though cause I started the master missions, and hated it, got ganked once about halfway done, then another time I got load killed.... I quit beta that moment**

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either way it may be for moot.... see my post right above yours, I wish someone would try to enter Kessel so we would know for sure, but it appears that the master missions are not in Kessel now.

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Banshe wrote:

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Vegitaa wrote:

Fly to Deep Space/Kessel engage any enemy fighter you find. Thats the extent of forcing you to PvP. I'm not sure I see where it's unfair either. To go up in any skillboxes for pilot Prof's you have to gain X amount of exp. So, go to Tat, engage any enemy fighter you can gain exp.

NPC pilots may not have the best equip compared to Players but from what I saw in Beta they can still be a pretty good challenge. I don't believe that actual player pilots will be too much more difficult. Of course you'll have a percentage of really good pilots out there but on average most people should be able to fulfill this requirement for Master pilot.

Either way, you'll be shooting down a whole lot of enemy ships long before this becomes an issue, especially since the exp requirements are so high.

** thats all well and good but PC dont count as kills toward your goal, yet if they kill you you start back over from scratch**

Since the last character wipe in early October till they shut down the Beta servers I didn't see any master pilots out there. By the time you've logged hundreds of hours of flight time grinding NPC's you should be able to handle players in much the same manner.

**sorry to proove you wrong again but I started beta 10-8, on 10-14 I was a 4444 rebel pilot took about 13 hours to get there, maybe 15. I then quit though cause I started the master missions, and hated it, got ganked once about halfway done, then another time I got load killed.... I quit beta that moment**

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either way it may be for moot.... see my post right above yours, I wish someone would try to enter Kessel so we would know for sure, but it appears that the master missions are not in Kessel now.

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Read my response below your post.

Falin