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Thread: Ok I have been saying this in Beta for the past week so here it goes.....Forced PVP in JTL
Felinae wrote:
In order to become a master in any of the pilot professions you must enter the Kessel system, all of the master missions take place there. The problem with this is you have no choice whether or not to PVP in the kessel or deep space system, if you enter those system you are PVP fodder.
Now consider that and think about this.... rebel master mission 1, kill 30 ties.... they are not very fast spawns and hard to get to anyways because of the gunboats all around that can really mess you up, if you hyperspace out to repair, reload you fail the mission, if you die you fail the mission and you have to go get the mission again and then head back to start over.... now add in on all of that you are now a PVP target whether you want to be or not.
I tried this mission a few times then quit beta because of the PVP, I had maybe a few minutes in the zone but every time I was attacked by a PC, my choices where to die (restart mission) hyper out (restart mission) try to kill the guy shooting me...(no I refuse to take part in PVP). In just the past week alone I have counted in about 10 different threads about this issue, and there have been post after post about the possible griefing once this in live, yet all those posts have been ignored, not one dev comment.
Firespray by the way is the AV21 of JTL you have to gather 8 fragments that you can make a schem from that you can make 8 ships from.
Oh and the multiplayer ships are just taxi's, from the drivers seat thats all you can do, if you want your YT to be able to do your solo smuggling, forget it... you cant shoot without leaving the drivers seat and going to a turret.
please add you comments about the forced PVP issue, also those of you that support forced PVP think about this first, what would you do if I took PVP completely away from you? would you like being forced to do nothing but PVE? That is the same way we feel about being forced to take part in PVP.
Message Edited by Felinae on 10-22-2004 09:59 AM
Would you be happy with an extreamly difficult PVE mission in which you cant hyperspace out or die?
I can see your problem with the PVP (i dont agree with it) but the part about not leaving or or repair/reload should stay so that it remains difficult.
Darkmaw wrote:
In the meantime I stil don't see the problem with 2 zones of space being high level and PVP oriented. I remember the time I tried to solo the Plane of Fear as a Warrior... guess what ... It didnt go well.
samijx wrote:
Well.....if you're to the point where you're knocking on the master box, I'd liketo believe that you have a great ship and have your pilot skills honed to a point where you should be able to survive in the tough space sectors for a while. If that's not the case, and you don't like PvP then just stick with pilot 4 4 4 4 and live happy in non-PvP sectors or on the ground.
We've been through this in another thread, but here it is again for the people that didn't see it:
I've actually finished the master missions on the beta server, and let me tell you that it's just about the most tedious thing I've ever done in a MMO. (In one thread in the beta forums, I stated that camping for the Thrash King in Anarchy-Online was pretty much a festival compared to the master missions) It only takes ONE hit, be that from a missile or laser blast from another player, and your entire mission is over. And believe me, it takes several hour to complete each mission. Leave the sector or die, and you'll fail. Take a few hits, and you'll need repairs. If you need repairs, you need to leave the sector. You get the idea.
Stopping at 4-4-4-4 is not really an option either, you would cut yourself short of the best thing in JTL for instance (The Nova, Decimator and YT). Neither would you ever be able to spend prestige points, since you need to be a master to get these. The prestige points are used to gain access to high end content (although currently, it only gains you access to Deep Space). Don't ever expect to see any capital ships either, the only Star Destroyer in JTL is stuck in Deep space. If you stay at 4-4-4-4 you've got ABSOLUTELY nothing left to do. There are no missions, no content (Except PVP, but since you're avoiding the master missions because of that...)
There seemed to be a general consensus among the masters on the beta forums that these missions just won't work. Kessel will be griefing central a few weeks after JTL goes live. In fact, I bet a lot of us can name names and guildnames of people on our respective servers who will grief people in Kessel just because they can.
One thing I would ask of everyone in this thread, and all threads similar to it: Try the missions and skill trees before you actually make statements about it. While some PVP might not seem like a bad idea, it is. Trust me on this.
Darkmaw wrote:
Yeah... I saw your posts in the beta forum as well.
What is the difference if you get toasted by a NPC ship or a play ship? Is it the fact that the NPC ships pixels will not taunt you?
No, the difference is that a NPC ship won't spot you from 4-5km away and start charging after you. Players do that, and you can't shake them either. The difference is that a NPC ship won't justhunt player ships, players will do that. All it takes is ONE single hit, and your mission is more or lessruined. Even if you would kill the player who attacked you, they still can just come back for more (since you are stuck in Kessel doing a mission).
Trust me on this: Even hardcore PVP players will find it very frustrating to be at their 29th TIE or Rebel ship just to get blown out of the sky by an opposing player.
Felinae wrote:
Cybdm-Bel wrote:
Felinae ,
Its like walking into a bar with an anti alcohol state of mine, complaining about not getting that sigar the bartenders usually gives to the customer who orders his special brandy/whisky. Then stating your forced to consume alcohol in that bar...
Get the point now ?
maybe so but I am not going to that bar looking for whisky am I, I am not going to kessel looking for PVP and then complaining about it. I am complaining about making it so that in order to get the ship that I want, I am forced to have PVP (alcohol) forced down my throat. Even still, there is a cigar shop just down the road where I can buy a cigar without having to stomach the alcohol.
You know what, why bother, I will just vote with my dollars and when they dont have enough non PVP people left then you all will be screwed as well... you all seem to miss my point I am not against PVP, I am against being forced to do it, plus the greifing aspect of it.
Suck it up, deal with it, in other words come in kessel and let me shoot you down every 5 minutes, or I deserve to have the uber ships cause I can shoot other people down, you dont want to so screw you, this is my reward.... Have you guys ever flown an a wing? it sucks, cant hold that much equip, low hp, I hate it, x wing has even lower mass so cant fit tier 4 gear in there to be competitive with the NPC's even, tier 3,2, and 1 are worse... so essientally you are telling me to quit. Fine you wont see me in JTL, I will continue with SWG ground till I get bored or till something amuses me more and then I will be able to play the char I want, the way that I want and have no PVP restrictions put on me.
and as far as this being a MM orpg, why does that mean I have to kill my fellow players? I have no interest in it, plus the missions can take hours, my guild is small and we dont all play at the same time so you want me to find just random people and spend hours in this zone them running cover for me? Oh yeah thats gonna work.
Message Edited by Felinae on 10-22-2004 12:12 PM
Message Edited by Felinae on 10-22-2004 01:38 PM
Yes it would work if your in a guild then that would help as well.
To give you an idea if your a jedi who unlocked after pub 9 then you would have done this if not i will tell you anyway.
Right you get glowy by mastering a few profs getting jedi poi badges and doing content badges. Then you have to wait for the old man to come he gives you a crystal to look after, you are then attacked by the sith. You then loot the sith and raid the camp at the waypoint.
Doing that gives you the waypoint to the village. When you get there you have to do 1 quest every 3 weeks so you can unlock 6 force trees. when you have done that and filled them with exp the old man will come to you and tell you that you have to kill a sith dude in a camp.
Now this guy is hard 80% protaction and a 50 k hame and has a lightsaber it takes a group to kill him and his people.
If you have done this then i can not see why you are complaing, if you have not then you have missed the point of this game. You are not ment to play game solo you are not ment to be able to complete everything like you can ina single player game.
This is not an attack on how you play but you have to see this as a good thing ask around people will help you if you ask them nicely.
Felinae wrote:
In order to become a master in any of the pilot professions you must enter the Kessel system, all of the master missions take place there. The problem with this is you have no choice whether or not to PVP in the kessel or deep space system, if you enter those system you are PVP fodder.
Now consider that and think about this.... rebel master mission 1, kill 30 ties.... they are not very fast spawns and hard to get to anyways because of the gunboats all around that can really mess you up, if you hyperspace out to repair, reload you fail the mission, if you die you fail the mission and you have to go get the mission again and then head back to start over.... now add in on all of that you are now a PVP target whether you want to be or not.
I tried this mission a few times then quit beta because of the PVP, I had maybe a few minutes in the zone but every time I was attacked by a PC, my choices where to die (restart mission) hyper out (restart mission) try to kill the guy shooting me...(no I refuse to take part in PVP). In just the past week alone I have counted in about 10 different threads about this issue, and there have been post after post about the possible griefing once this in live, yet all those posts have been ignored, not one dev comment.
Firespray by the way is the AV21 of JTL you have to gather 8 fragments that you can make a schem from that you can make 8 ships from.
Oh and the multiplayer ships are just taxi's, from the drivers seat thats all you can do, if you want your YT to be able to do your solo smuggling, forget it... you cant shoot without leaving the drivers seat and going to a turret.
please add you comments about the forced PVP issue, also those of you that support forced PVP think about this first, what would you do if I took PVP completely away from you? would you like being forced to do nothing but PVE? That is the same way we feel about being forced to take part in PVP.
Message Edited by Felinae on 10-22-2004 09:59 AM
Why are you a Rebel if you are completely non-PvP, why wouldn't you just be neutral?
-K
Just adding my Two Cents here
BrotherDavius wrote:
Why is it so hard to get a group to do this mission?
Because not everyone is willing to subject their friends to hours upon hours (in a row)of missions. Besides a group won't help much in the first mission, though they are useful as gunboat decoys in the second one.
If your in a guild getting the master box helps them as well as you and if they help you would more than likely help them when there time came.
Do all of you want the pilot profs to be as esay as the ground profs??? if so why.
Nope. We just want to have a fun profession. Seriously, if you haven't tried these missions, you can't even begin to imagine how annoying and unfun they are.
If some one kills me in space be it pc or npc i will just repair my ship and get back up there with some mates and kill them all.
Good luck. Considering that your mission will be failed when you die, and the fact that there is nothing that keeps them out of Kessel after you shot them down... Well, good luck.
Also you would not need many people to cover you while doing the mission.
Space is small. Even with just about 5 people in Kessel, you'll see them on your radar soon enough. When griefers start to hang out in Kessel, you'll need much more than a small group to cover you.
What type of ties do you have to kill in this mission?
Top level versions of: TIE aggressors, TIE oppressors, TIE advanced, Gunboats and at a lesser extent TIE Interceptors (They don't seem as common as the others). Here's the catch: They hardly ever spawn, since the spawn rates in Kessel are low. Very low. Most of the TIEs that do spawn are escorts to Gunboats. In general, gunboats have a nasty habit of killing most people in just a few shots. They have four to six very accurate, hardhitting turrets. If you get one on your tail, you'll have to fly for many kilometers before they will stop chasing you.
With just a few people in Kessel, doing this very first mission took most people a few hours. Now, imagine how it will be when the zone has a big selection of people trying to do the missions. With people fighting over the few spawning TIEs/rebel ships, the mission length will increase. Now, on top of this, add the threat of other players (where one shot can pretty much end your mission) and you have yourself the worst mission. Ever. And as the topping of this cake of miserable mission design: Player kills don't even count for mission completion.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again (And this is not directed towards you specific, BrotherDavius): Unless you've actually tried or done these missions, don't make statements about how "some PVP" can't hurt. You'll be surprised at how this will end up. Even hardcore PVPers will get very, very frustrated when they get that Mark IV Proton Missile up their rear end when they are at their 20th kill for the mission.
Overall, it's blatantly obvious that the developers thought that this will promote PVP, when it instead will do the exact opposite. It's much, much better to make PVP optional, and create a good balance between risk and reward. Something to fight about (like land control) wouldn't hurt either.