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Thread: Am I the only one that thinks JTLS is way too EZ?
NACHODEWI wrote:
MikeMonger wrote:
So what you're saying is, EVERYBODY, regardless of skill, should be able to grind pilot all the way to master, eh?
JTL is FAR from super hard. Some people are just better atspace sim games than others. I know I'm not that good at them myself, but with only one or two wingman, I was able to complete all my missions. Then, 5 or 6 of us went after the vette for master at the same time, and with that many, it blows up real easy.
Are you even paying attention to the complaints people have? People should be able to master their profession! Its totally retarded to set up the game system so people have to waste time begging others to spend several hours helping them to master their professions. Use commonse sense for a minute! Did anyone have to beg for help to master their ground profession? No! I Mastered BH on my own. I probably would have never mastered it if the JTL retarded forced grouping was implemented for the ground game. I have no problem with forced grouping for the high end content BUT mastering your profession is NOT HIGH END CONTENT! Unless the devs implemented the forced grouping difficulty to cover the fact that there is no high end content. Their policy will backfire in the long run.
And are you even paying any attention to the counter argument? Jump to Lightspeed is a SKILL BASED GAME. If you do not have the SKILLS to reach master, than why should they dumb it down so anyone, whether they have the skills or not, can acheive the highest level?
It makes no sense to create a skill based game, then decide that EVERYONE should be able to reach the highest level, so remove all need for skill.
Now, the GROUND game IS NOT SKILL BASED. It's TIME based. Work at it long enough, you'll eventually acquire the xp needed to reach master. If the space game were like the ground game, IT WOULD NOT BE SKILL BASED. The ship would be auto targeting, the weapons auto firing, and the enemies auto-destroyed. Combat would consist of flying up to an enemy, typing /attack, and waiting for the battle to be over. Eventually, they'd put in ship buffs, so you could spam ship special attacks.
You're complaining because a skill based game requires you to <gasp> have some skill.
That's real fair to everyone. Say somebody only has one hand left from an accident and about all they can do is play computer games since they can't hold a controller. So then they try playing JTL but can't master cause it's already quite difficult.
JTL still uses much of the ground game rules. The master title shouldn't only be for those with mad skills and content limited cause others aren't as good as you.
The point is to make games like these equal or possible for all players. This is not a FPS or whatever cause you can't set the difficulty level sorry. And no skills that you get for ships and what not, should not be based on a difficulty level.
I've played games like Rogue Squadron and mastered every level with a gold on each one even the bonus. It was hard to get there but yeah it's easy to go back and play most of the levels. That's how it is in a lot of games.
It also depends on what your fighting. And the Tier doesn't mean everything. If you can starting from scratch as Tier 3 pilot solo the mission I'm on, in nothing but a Tie Interceptor with level 7 components or lower without bomb strike, without specials of any kind cause those aren't based on your real life skills, I'll believe ya. Honestly I've seen the Kaathak Queen put all sorts of people who think there awesome pilots to shame.
I think what there needs to be is more challenging content other than stations and SDs for masters though most of that stuff is pretty hard. It's only easy cause you've got the best ship/items and specials. If you want to make it harder challenge yourself don't punch up the difficulty to discourage others.
Sound a little bit like greifing to me. If not just plain selfish. Most of us don't find it fun to spend lots of hours playing just to lose all the time.
Plus there's always lag to consider as well.
Message Edited by TK-132 on 01-14-2005 02:56 PM
MikeMonger1 wrote:
LRRCP wrote:
Yes and those people who are hard core sim players will get no challenge out of a AI ever, either they have to be swamped in which those players with lowSituational Awareness would get creamed while the Vet runs a fighting retreat.
I'm not a hard core sim player, but I do have SOME twitch based skill. So people like me aren't supposed to get any challenge out of AI either?
Twitch based skills are simply reflex's, and awareness of ones surroundings.
The only real challenge will be another player for those who are skilled at these type of games.
So only PvPer'sare allowed toget any challenge?
Compared to a programed AI which will do the same things repeatedly yes.
I mean come on this is a arcade simulator, not a true one, you can not use flight sim maneuvers in it as speed does not drop in turns or climb type maneuvers.
Uh, this is a SPACE sim, not a flight sim. Speed won't drop because there's no gravity or atmosphere. However, you can't turn as tightly at high speeds as you can low.
Gee the game has nebula and dust clouds we fly though and very large objects called planets and moons not to forget asteroids, yes the Devs created their own physics but Star Wars ship to ship combat was based off the old WWII dog fights in the movies.
If you are not being challenged enough down grade your equipment till you are, like try a tier 1 ship in kessel or deep space.
So, in other words, use crappy equipment so that the no-skill people can make master,and us fair-to-middlen skill people get no challenge. That makes, uh, sense.
For your information you need Zero skill to make master pilot, get a group, stay out of the way follow the mission you can piggy back all the way to master.
The top fighter ace of all time only had 352 kills.
Your point being? The top fighter ace of all time flew prop driven aircraft and shot bullets at people. He didn't fly around in space and lob energy blasts at his enemies. Oh,and that was REAL LIFE. Most cops never pull their guns in real life, much less shoot anybody. I guess Max Payne and games like that are completely irrelevent. Oh, wait. Yes, they are, because they're GAMES, and what happens in games can't be compared to what happens in real life.
Take a game like Americas Army, to even start the game you have to pass basic rifles on a firing range like in real life, many people quit the game at that point because they are unable to score the min needed to even begin the game.
Now in a game where everyone is paying to play making it to hard to gain skills is stupid as people will quit playing meaning less interest in the expansion and less content being added.
JTL is setup where every player can if they have the will make master pilot regardless of skill meaning it keeps the fun factor for everyone, from a twitch based player to a person who needs help tieing their own shoes because they are so uncoordinated.
And for your information skill in following and hitting the target is not the most imprortant factor in doing the missions, you ship setup can make or break you, skill or no skill.
As a Shipwright I can create a ship setup for even the weakest player to do well with maxed out shield recharge and well setup weapons.
TK-132 wrote:
Um so it's fair for one person to pay $15 and not be able to master cause they don't have your level of skills? Yet you only pay $15 and master whatever it is with ease. Sure.
Yes, it's fair. I've made this point repeatedly...what's the point of a skill based game that requires no skill at all? Turn your argument around...is it fair for people who DO have the level of skill required to make master (which is MOST players) to get absolutely NO challenge? They pay just as much for the game as people who can't do it.
That's real fair to everyone. Say somebody only has one hand left from an accident and about all they can do is play computer games since they can't hold a controller. So then they try playing JTL but can't master cause it's already quite difficult.
Let's design the game around the minute percentage of people who can't play the game to it's full potential because they only have one hand. That makes LOADS of sense.
JTL still uses much of the ground game rules. The master title shouldn't only be for those with mad skills and content limited cause others aren't as good as you.
No, it doesn't. There are no macros in space. You don't type /attack to start a battle. Heck, the targeting commands all default to completely different keys (R instead of TAB, etc). Working up the profession tree doesn't increase accuracy. What ground based profession other than jedi (a whole different can of worms) requires you to complete missions to advance? If anything, they did a TERRIBLE job of integrating ground and space.
The point is to make games like these equal or possible for all players. This is not a FPS or whatever cause you can't set the difficulty level sorry. And no skills that you get for ships and what not, should not be based on a difficulty level.
Back to the point I made before....make it unfair to the people with minimal skill, which is most of the player base, so that the few with NO skill AT ALL can master.
I've played games like Rogue Squadron and mastered every level with a gold on each one even the bonus. It was hard to get there but yeah it's easy to go back and play most of the levels. That's how it is in a lot of games.
Then what are you complaining about? You have the skill to make master. Congrats.
It also depends on what your fighting. And the Tier doesn't mean everything. If you can starting from scratch as Tier 3 pilot solo the mission I'm on, in nothing but a Tie Interceptor with level 7 components or lower without bomb strike, without specials of any kind cause those aren't based on your real life skills, I'll believe ya. Honestly I've seen the Kaathak Queen put all sorts of people who think there awesome pilots to shame.
All missions are soloable. I personally couldn't solo anything past tier 3, but there are the phenominalplayers who can do it. Get a friend. This is an MMORPG. One of the objectives of it is to work with others. If you don't want to work with others, why are you playing an MMORPG? And that's the whole point of your argument...you want to make the entire pilot leveling process soloable by everyone.
I think what there needs to be is more challenging content other than stations and SDs for masters though most of that stuff is pretty hard. It's only easy cause you've got the best ship/items and specials. If you want to make it harder challenge yourself don't punch up the difficulty to discourage others.
Again, it makes more sense to you to force better players to cripple themselve, than to make less skilled players group, practice, and work at it a little bit more. Makes no sense to me at all.
Sound a little bit like greifing to me. If not just plain selfish. Most of us don't find it fun to spend lots of hours playing just to lose all the time.
AI can't grief. AI can only do what it's programmed to do. And if you find you CAN'T do it, the GET SOME HELP FROM SOMEONE WHO CAN! I often hang around the tier 3 and 4 trainers, offering to come along and help just because missions seem to drop more loot than random spawns. I'm not the only one.
Plus there's always lag to consider as well.
I've never died because of lag. I HAVE died from getting bumped, but that's the risk you take when you play online.
Message Edited by TK-132 on 01-14-2005 02:56 PM
LRRCP wrote:
MikeMonger1 wrote:
LRRCP wrote:
Yes and those people who are hard core sim players will get no challenge out of a AI ever, either they have to be swamped in which those players with lowSituational Awareness would get creamed while the Vet runs a fighting retreat.
I'm not a hard core sim player, but I do have SOME twitch based skill. So people like me aren't supposed to get any challenge out of AI either?
Twitch based skills are simply reflex's, and awareness of ones surroundings.
The only real challenge will be another player for those who are skilled at these type of games.
So only PvPer'sare allowed toget any challenge?
Compared to a programed AI which will do the same things repeatedly yes.
I mean come on this is a arcade simulator, not a true one, you can not use flight sim maneuvers in it as speed does not drop in turns or climb type maneuvers.
Uh, this is a SPACE sim, not a flight sim. Speed won't drop because there's no gravity or atmosphere. However, you can't turn as tightly at high speeds as you can low.
Gee the game has nebula and dust clouds we fly though and very large objects called planets and moons not to forget asteroids, yes the Devs created their own physics but Star Wars ship to ship combat was based off the old WWII dog fights in the movies.
If you are not being challenged enough down grade your equipment till you are, like try a tier 1 ship in kessel or deep space.
So, in other words, use crappy equipment so that the no-skill people can make master,and us fair-to-middlen skill people get no challenge. That makes, uh, sense.
For your information you need Zero skill to make master pilot, get a group, stay out of the way follow the mission you can piggy back all the way to master.
The top fighter ace of all time only had 352 kills.
Your point being? The top fighter ace of all time flew prop driven aircraft and shot bullets at people. He didn't fly around in space and lob energy blasts at his enemies. Oh,and that was REAL LIFE. Most cops never pull their guns in real life, much less shoot anybody. I guess Max Payne and games like that are completely irrelevent. Oh, wait. Yes, they are, because they're GAMES, and what happens in games can't be compared to what happens in real life.
Take a game like Americas Army, to even start the game you have to pass basic rifles on a firing range like in real life, many people quit the game at that point because they are unable to score the min needed to even begin the game.
Now in a game where everyone is paying to play making it to hard to gain skills is stupid as people will quit playing meaning less interest in the expansion and less content being added.
JTL is setup where every player can if they have the will make master pilot regardless of skill meaning it keeps the fun factor for everyone, from a twitch based player to a person who needs help tieing their own shoes because they are so uncoordinated.
And for your information skill in following and hitting the target is not the most imprortant factor in doing the missions, you ship setup can make or break you, skill or no skill.
As a Shipwright I can create a ship setup for even the weakest player to do well with maxed out shield recharge and well setup weapons.
I'm confused. Are you FOR making the game easier, or AGAINST it?
I'm confused. Are you FOR making the game easier, or AGAINST it?
Against any changes making the expansion harder...
Most players of JTL would not realize if the AI started doing verticl sissors or vector roll turns what it was doing if they are on its 6 till they were dead then they would scream there is no way to beat it.
Skill is not a factor in JTL or even flight sims, knowledge is the prime factor, knowing your ship and its abilities vs what you are facing skill is secondary, if you know what speed you enemy are able to go, then you can setup your ship to either run them down, if you know you have enemy with heavy shields but low speed, then you can up gun your ship, hard hitting enemy heavy Shields.. ect.
you set the game up for the top positions to be held by the top players only then people will quit playing the expansion altogether.
Whats the defineing factors, should only the top 300 players on the server be able to claim Ace status? then you might be shutting out a large part of the server population.
If I want a real chalange in a Sim I will go play Aces High 2, its a online WWII flight simulator with a large server population and takes a lot of knowledge to play, basicly 3d chess in the mind esp since most of those there have been playing flight sims for years...
MikeMonger1 wrote:TK-132 wrote:
Um so it's fair for one person to pay $15 and not be able to master cause they don't have your level of skills? Yet you only pay $15 and master whatever it is with ease. Sure.Yes, it's fair. I've made this point repeatedly...what's the point of a skill based game that requires no skill at all? Turn your argument around...is it fair for people who DO have the level of skill required to make master (which is MOST players) to get absolutely NO challenge? They pay just as much for the game as people who can't do it.
That's real fair to everyone. Say somebody only has one hand left from an accident and about all they can do is play computer games since they can't hold a controller. So then they try playing JTL but can't master cause it's already quite difficult.Let's design the game around the minute percentage of people who can't play the game to it's full potential because they only have one hand. That makes LOADS of sense.
JTL still uses much of the ground game rules. The master title shouldn't only be for those with mad skills and content limited cause others aren't as good as you.No, it doesn't. There are no macros in space. You don't type /attack to start a battle. Heck, the targeting commands all default to completely different keys (R instead of TAB, etc). Working up the profession tree doesn't increase accuracy. What ground based profession other than jedi (a whole different can of worms) requires you to complete missions to advance? If anything, they did a TERRIBLE job of integrating ground and space.
The point is to make games like these equal or possible for all players. This is not a FPS or whatever cause you can't set the difficulty level sorry. And no skills that you get for ships and what not, should not be based on a difficulty level.Back to the point I made before....make it unfair to the people with minimal skill, which is most of the player base, so that the few with NO skill AT ALL can master.
I've played games like Rogue Squadron and mastered every level with a gold on each one even the bonus. It was hard to get there but yeah it's easy to go back and play most of the levels. That's how it is in a lot of games.Then what are you complaining about? You have the skill to make master. Congrats.
It also depends on what your fighting. And the Tier doesn't mean everything. If you can starting from scratch as Tier 3 pilot solo the mission I'm on, in nothing but a Tie Interceptor with level 7 components or lower without bomb strike, without specials of any kind cause those aren't based on your real life skills, I'll believe ya. Honestly I've seen the Kaathak Queen put all sorts of people who think there awesome pilots to shame.All missions are soloable. I personally couldn't solo anything past tier 3, but there are the phenominalplayers who can do it. Get a friend. This is an MMORPG. One of the objectives of it is to work with others. If you don't want to work with others, why are you playing an MMORPG? And that's the whole point of your argument...you want to make the entire pilot leveling process soloable by everyone.
I think what there needs to be is more challenging content other than stations and SDs for masters though most of that stuff is pretty hard. It's only easy cause you've got the best ship/items and specials. If you want to make it harder challenge yourself don't punch up the difficulty to discourage others.Again, it makes more sense to you to force better players to cripple themselve, than to make less skilled players group, practice, and work at it a little bit more. Makes no sense to me at all.
Sound a little bit like greifing to me. If not just plain selfish. Most of us don't find it fun to spend lots of hours playing just to lose all the time.AI can't grief. AI can only do what it's programmed to do. And if you find you CAN'T do it, the GET SOME HELP FROM SOMEONE WHO CAN! I often hang around the tier 3 and 4 trainers, offering to come along and help just because missions seem to drop more loot than random spawns. I'm not the only one.
Plus there's always lag to consider as well.I've never died because of lag. I HAVE died from getting bumped, but that's the risk you take when you play online.
Message Edited by TK-132 on 01-14-2005 02:56 PM
I'm not for dumbing down AI as you may think. I think it is fine where it is. To get to Master you either have to group or be exceptional. And yes I have had a group on every Tier 3 mission. I didn't say Tier 3 is impossible I quit. It is challenging. And yes in the last mission even my firends got destroyed and they are in Tier 4. The game is fine where it is now. Most people aren't masters. I really hardly see any master pilots so it's not that easy. Which is good. However it does not need to be more difficult. random spawn AI isn't all that challenging. The real fun and hardships is in leveling. I'd be all for really hard challenging master content.
Just don't make it so only a few can ever master. Well I suppose that won't ever be the case since all you being doing is frustrating more people and forcing people into bigger groups which isn't better. I like the game where it is for the most part.
Message Edited by TK-132 on 01-15-2005 10:54 AM
MikeMonger1 wrote:
NACHODEWI wrote:
MikeMonger wrote:
So what you're saying is, EVERYBODY, regardless of skill, should be able to grind pilot all the way to master, eh?
JTL is FAR from super hard. Some people are just better atspace sim games than others. I know I'm not that good at them myself, but with only one or two wingman, I was able to complete all my missions. Then, 5 or 6 of us went after the vette for master at the same time, and with that many, it blows up real easy.
Are you even paying attention to the complaints people have? People should be able to master their profession! Its totally retarded to set up the game system so people have to waste time begging others to spend several hours helping them to master their professions. Use commonse sense for a minute! Did anyone have to beg for help to master their ground profession? No! I Mastered BH on my own. I probably would have never mastered it if the JTL retarded forced grouping was implemented for the ground game. I have no problem with forced grouping for the high end content BUT mastering your profession is NOT HIGH END CONTENT! Unless the devs implemented the forced grouping difficulty to cover the fact that there is no high end content. Their policy will backfire in the long run.
And are you even paying any attention to the counter argument? Jump to Lightspeed is a SKILL BASED GAME. If you do not have the SKILLS to reach master, than why should they dumb it down so anyone, whether they have the skills or not, can acheive the highest level?
It makes no sense to create a skill based game, then decide that EVERYONE should be able to reach the highest level, so remove all need for skill.
Now, the GROUND game IS NOT SKILL BASED. It's TIME based. Work at it long enough, you'll eventually acquire the xp needed to reach master. If the space game were like the ground game, IT WOULD NOT BE SKILL BASED. The ship would be auto targeting, the weapons auto firing, and the enemies auto-destroyed. Combat would consist of flying up to an enemy, typing /attack, and waiting for the battle to be over. Eventually, they'd put in ship buffs, so you could spam ship special attacks.
You're complaining because a skill based game requires you to have some skill.