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Thread: Okay, LET'S DO THIS CONSTRUCTIVELY SO THE DEVS WILL NOTICE! RE: KESSEL
truewildman
Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:36 pm
#27
Slarus wrote:
My proposal included nothing that wasn't already ingame, except for a mission that was outside Kessel.
MP ships for Master, Fighter ships for ace, they're already there. And, besides the fact that they already have other ships designed, as they are putting them in here in the near future.
Read it the first few times, but the mission wasn't coded for outside of kessel, it can be done and they may indeed do it, but they felt the PvP was unfair so they stopped it for now. It is time to give them time.
Yes. Yes, it is. You are absolutely correct. TH's further comments show that their initial plans will be realized, including "missions for the PvP" pilot.
I hope they at least consider my ideas....
Slarus
Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:38 pm
#28
Yes. Yes, it is. You are absolutely correct. TH's further comments show that their initial plans will be realized, including "missions for the PvP" pilot.
I hope they at least consider my ideas....
There is no reason to have a sub-pilot PvP templete. This game isn't about PvP, why should anyone get something special just for PvP? The rewards in the Master Box are not good PvP ships so this wouldn't really work.
FalinMor
Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:49 pm
#29
FredP wrote:
truewildman wrote:
... Let's keep it constructive with relevent ideas to make JTL fun for everyone, as well as maintain the RP aspect we are all here looking for. ...
My definition of fun is forcing everyone to come to me to PvP for the title. If you take that away, then you take my fun away and your premise, stated above, no longer holds true for everyone. I may have the minority opinion, but I am not alone in this point of view.
There are words for that.
Weak. Griefer. Coward. Child.
I'm sure others can think of more.
Falin
truewildman
Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:50 pm
#30
Slarus wrote:
Yes. Yes, it is. You are absolutely correct. TH's further comments show that their initial plans will be realized, including "missions for the PvP" pilot.
I hope they at least consider my ideas....
There is no reason to have a sub-pilot PvP templete. This game isn't about PvP, why should anyone get something special just for PvP? The rewards in the Master Box are not good PvP ships so this wouldn't really work.
This game isn't about PvP to you. It is to others, and still others think it's PvP and PvE rolled into one to complete their RP experience.
Slarus, I don't like PvP. I never have, and I will likely never do it.
I am simply trying to find a way to encompass all players by "simple compromise". My idea just may miss the mark in that regard. My only hope is that the end result will include everyone.
Longailan
Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:58 pm
#31
I'm extremely pissed off at this PVP-zone mission for Master. Me and a group of 4 went into Kessel and 2 were dead as they loaded into the zone, just before they could even get their ship moving. The rest of us died within 2-3 hits.... ALL FROM GRIEFING PVPers.
I 100% agree to this proposal. The current system is a waste if you haven't Mastered it yet; it prevents others from getting to the top by blasting them at the HS entry area.
It won't be long before majority of the people that wanted to be pilots quit this game because of the Devs 'Imp' favoratism. I guess if you cry enough, they give you what you want on a silver platter.
.
truewildman
Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:00 pm
#32
Longailan wrote:
I'm extremely pissed off at this PVP-zone mission for Master. Me and a group of 4 went into Kessel and 2 were dead as they loaded into the zone, just before they could even get their ship moving. The rest of us died within 2-3 hits.... ALL FROM GRIEFING PVPers.
I 100% agree to this proposal. The current system is a waste if you haven't Mastered it yet; it prevents others from getting to the top by blasting them at the HS entry area.
It won't be long before majority of the people that wanted to be pilots quit this game because of the Devs 'Imp' favoratism. I guess if you cry enough, they give you what you want on a silver platter.
.
Next Tuesday, Kessel will be PvE only. Live long and Prosper.
Slarus
Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:01 pm
#33
This game isn't about PvP to you. It is to others, and still others think it's PvP and PvE rolled into one to complete their RP experience.
Slarus, I don't like PvP. I never have, and I will likely never do it.
I am simply trying to find a way to encompass all players by "simple compromise". My idea just may miss the mark in that regard. My only hope is that the end result will include everyone.
The solution and compromise is to make the mission PvE, not to include PvP in it, there is no basis for a special PvP Title, badge or reward, when you choose to PvP it is your choice that's all it doesn't make you special and deserving of special recognition.
I advote ZERO special distinctions, Master Pilot is the last skill box for Pilot that is all it is. It is a goal for you to get, not magic.
truewildman
Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:17 pm
#34
I know people don't like to admit it, but there is a difference between SWG and JTL. It's an expansion, not a patch. It is twitch-based. Now, please, hear me out.
Now, before you go and start thinking about PvP as we are all familiar with on the ground, where everyone is pretty much equal, and it only depends on who looted the uberest weapon, or who has the most mind pool, think about this:
Twitch-based. Twitch-based. Remember the other twitch-based games you played? Yeah. Let's stay on the topic of twitch-based games for a moment.
In Quake II and III, your frags (PvP kills) were kept track of. You could go to a website and view the top 10 players. Hell, the top 100 if you wanted to. Why is that? Because people like to see who's on top in a twitch-based game. Not because they wrote a better macro, and had all their ducks in a row, but because it is based on real human ability. Why do we watch sports? Why do we care who wins in such a competition? Because we want to know who has the real life human skill.
Now, let's get back to JTL and SWG. There are people playing this because they like to roleplay. Not everyone fights. And that is perfectly acceptable. There are ones who simply want to be peaceful bus-drivers and tote people or things allover the galaxy. That's great. They have to pilot. They can master that pilot skill. They can be master pilot.
Now, there are players who are warriors in the skies. They want to know who is the best "athlete" of the sky for some healthy competition. They want to see names of those that can dogfight very well. They want rank. They want sport. They are aces.
The last two paparagraphs show exactly why there does need to be two class distinctions because there are two distict classes.
They already exist. We're not inventing here. SOE put out a twitch-based expansion. As soon as it launched, the two distinct classes were created. Now, the only choice is to either destroy one class, or accomodate them both.
Message Edited by truewildman on 11-09-2004 04:18 PM
Message Edited by truewildman on 11-09-2004 04:20 PM
Dreamland
Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:32 pm
#35
Well boslo i'm going to be perfectly honest with you. As someone who's played a live dancer for over a yearI know what it is like to be part of a minority and not be heard on the concept that your playstyle is valid. The realy ironic thing is now im standing here watching as another minority who thought they were a majority fights over THEIR playstyle.
Now i'm the kind of person thats sympathetic to other peoples concerns. One of those "carebears" that the obnoxious pvp types like to make fun of. Now you see what it leads to in the end. The obnoxious members of the pvp side pissed all over everyone that didn't agree with them thinking they were the stuff, well you know what it is they who ruined it for you boslo. All the people like yourself who post sensible ideas from the pvp side are few and far between. Most of the voices you heard chiming in from the pvp camp were sayng suck it up you f-ing carebears. Now you pay the price. It's garbage in garbage out and the ones that griefed, and insulted and made things as miserable as possible got your forced pvp taken away from you.
There are "carebears" like myself that would support you hardcore pvp'ers getting a ranking system on the page where you could measure your skills. But most of the ones your fellows burned are not going to support you. It's a community and that is why a community needs to support eachother, so when they come for you you have someone to back you up.
Message Edited by Dreamland on 11-09-2004 04:36 PM
Slarus
Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:32 pm
#36
I know people don't like to admit it, but there is a difference between SWG and JTL. It's an expansion, not a patch. It is twitch-based. Now, please, hear me out.
Now, before you go and start thinking about PvP as we are all familiar with on the ground, where everyone is pretty much equal, and it only depends on who looted the uberest weapon, or who has the most mind pool, think about this:
Twitch-based. Twitch-based. Remember the other twitch-based games you played? Yeah. Let's stay on the topic of twitch-based games for a moment.
In Quake II and III, your frags (PvP kills) were kept track of. You could go to a website and view the top 10 players. Hell, the top 100 if you wanted to. Why is that? Because people like to see who's on top in a twitch-based game. Not because they wrote a better macro, and had all their ducks in a row, but because it is based on real human ability. Why do we watch sports? Why do we care who wins in such a competition? Because we want to know who has the real life human skill.
The flaw is there are many twitch based games that don't have PvP or it is choice. Twitch based doesn't mean PvP. PvP is not required to finish or play the game, the PvP is if YOU FEEL you want the challenge of another player.
Now, let's get back to JTL and SWG. There are people playing this because they like to roleplay. Not everyone fights. And that is perfectly acceptable. There are ones who simply want to be peaceful bus-drivers and tote people or things allover the galaxy. That's great. They have to pilot. They can master that pilot skill. They can be master pilot.
Now, there are players who are warriors in the skies. They want to know who is the best "athlete" of the sky for some healthy competition. They want to see names of those that can dogfight very well. They want rank. They want sport. They are aces.
Ace mean 5 confirmed kills the British coined the term in WWI, PERIOD end of story it is not a PvE or PvP distinction and for SWG it was used to make the master title sound like a piloting title, PERIOD nothing else. Ace doesn't mean PvP god, your wrong your mislead into this wild theory.
The last two paparagraphs show exactly why there does need to be two class distinctions because there are two distict classes.
They already exist. We're not inventing here. SOE put out a twitch-based expansion. As soon as it launched, the two distinct classes were created. Now, the only choice is to either destroy one class, or accomodate them both.
There is no reason to single out PvPers with special titles because they like to PvP, what you presented was your opinion and misleading statements, but not reasons.
Give Kessel to PvPers, yes. Make the Master mission PvE, yes again. Give a special titel for PvPor PvE, nope no reason to. Have fun I don't need my ego stroked if I PvP by some fancy title, you obviously do, but ego stroking isn't a reason.
If we want to be technical when EVERY player downs 5 enemy ships PvE or PvP they should get the Ace title is we wanted to use the term properly, I for one understand it is just the title they gave to Masters to make it feel more pilot like in JTL. Instead of Bob Master Pilot it is Bob Rebel Ace Pilot it is just a title, not magic.
truewildman
Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:43 pm
#37
Look this is Star Wars, not Britain. Anyway the title doesn't have to be Ace, if you're going to be stuck on a word.
Secondly, just because you can't put yourself in the shoes of the sportsmen, doesn't mean that what they think or feel is less important than your values.
Some value the hierarchical arrangement of rank to ability ratio. If you don't, that's fine. But don't try to make this game cater only to you.
Thirdly, and I've said this many times, I am not a PvPer!!! Just because I happen to have the ability to truly empathize, does not label me such.
Now, let's get back to the core discussion here. There are people with values that differ from you and I. And there's only black, or white. There's nothing wrong with making it gray.
Slarus
Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:53 pm
#38
Look this is Star Wars, not Britain. Anyway the title doesn't have to be Ace, if you're going to be stuck on a word.
I'm not stuck on the word, YOU mention it as a distinction not me.
Secondly, just because you can't put yourself in the shoes of the sportsmen, doesn't mean that what they think or feel is less important than your values.
Some value the hierarchical arrangement of rank to ability ratio. If you don't, that's fine. But don't try to make this game cater only to you.
It isn't in now, it wasn't in at all. Sounds like it wasn't even thought of. It is cartering to all, no one asked for a special PvP title till this mission in Kessel was known, and the PvEers asked not to be forced into PvP, then the PvPers tried to make Master Pilot sound magical and tried to FABRICATE it into a PvP title.
Thirdly, and I've said this many times, I am not a PvPer!!! Just because I happen to have the ability to truly empathize, does not label me such.
Now, let's get back to the core discussion here. There are people with values that differ from you and I. And there's only black, or white. There's nothing wrong with making it gray.
Sympathise is more like by giving into fantasy. If this Kessel mission never exsisted as a PvP/PvE mission from day one, you would not be trying to create a special title for PvPers, no one did that during NDA when we all speculated, no one asked before beta, no one asked for this on the ground game for 32 professions. This is a new concept from the smal group that tried to convince people that there should be 5 masters per profession per server for 175 masters per server, it is the invention of elitist trying to get the "Uber" title.
A reasonable answer was and still is do nothing to the master title or rewards, make it a PvE mission with no PvP, and keep Kessel PvP. All who want PvP get it, all who don't get it, all who want MP ships get it. Everyone is happy but elitist who want a special reward if they are even .01% I'd be surprised.
MillaMerani
Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:03 am
#39
Yes, I can agree with this idea. I'm not in this game for PvP, but I certainly don't want to prevent PvP fans from enjoying it. I think this is a reasonable compromise, although I would prefer some sort of 'PvPer only' tournament or space pvp ranking systemthat would give the best pilot a special title.