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Thread: asteroid mining, PVP zones
Ducimus
Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:19 pm
#27
Treena_Daal wrote:
I believe that Tab is "closest enemy", which can be NPC or PC. Z is for PCs only.
On topic, however, why do people constantly look for ways of getting into PvP with people who have no chance against them? We've been having this debate on the GCW board for months. What is the purpose of fighting someone who just wants to harvest? That ship doesn't look like it has weapons. It can't go anywhere while harvesting. It's a sitting target. There is no challenge to that fight, there is no reason for that fight. What could anyone gain from allowing PvP against a harvest ship?
My thoughts. Because theirs a war on. If you have a chance against me or not is irrelvant. It's much akin to WWII submarine warfare. Tankers and freighter dont have a chance against subs, but they are the logistical lifeblood of a nation at war.
Because there is a war on, impeding or blocking logistical movement of your enemy is to the bennfit of your faction. On bria for example, i make it my buisness to impede, block or stop rebel faction farming in space. Theres a logistical and strategic value in doing so.
It's just buisness, nothing personal. But this is why i sit on the fence on certain PvP issues.
padren
Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:47 pm
#28
Ducimus wrote:
Treena_Daal wrote:
I believe that Tab is "closest enemy", which can be NPC or PC. Z is for PCs only.
On topic, however, why do people constantly look for ways of getting into PvP with people who have no chance against them? We've been having this debate on the GCW board for months. What is the purpose of fighting someone who just wants to harvest? That ship doesn't look like it has weapons. It can't go anywhere while harvesting. It's a sitting target. There is no challenge to that fight, there is no reason for that fight. What could anyone gain from allowing PvP against a harvest ship?
My thoughts. Because theirs a war on. If you have a chance against me or not is irrelvant. It's much akin to WWII submarine warfare. Tankers and freighter dont have a chance against subs, but they are the logistical lifeblood of a nation at war.
Because there is a war on, impeding or blocking logistical movement of your enemy is to the bennfit of your faction. On bria for example, i make it my buisness to impede, block or stop rebel faction farming in space. Theres a logistical and strategic value in doing so.
It's just buisness, nothing personal. But this is why i sit on the fence on certain PvP issues.
Q-boats in space!
Ducimus
Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:15 pm
#29
>>Yep put some roids in DS, np...but don't make it to special, or you will hear more crying.
Risk vs reward?
I would think anyone who risks hostile action should be recieving the greater rewards. I dont see how anyone who takes no risks has any grounds for complaining.
Risk vs reward?
I would think anyone who risks hostile action should be recieving the greater rewards. I dont see how anyone who takes no risks has any grounds for complaining.
padren
Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:07 pm
#30
One thing about space mining in the little aquariums that are known as space sectors...there barely is even the room for a good defense parimeter. In deep space...you can forget about it. You'd be lucky to find an asteroid to mine without a vette blocking your path. If you sucked all the npc ships in deep space into a ball you'd have Coruscant.
groovysplat101
Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:31 pm
#31
Okay. Only a few problems with what you're suggesting. You expect merchants to HIRE escorts who are PC players? The problem is twofold.
One, finding enough player pilots to form an escort is gonna be tough, especially if there are more than one or two people wanting to harvest. You're gonna have to find people from your faction, who are willing to help, and who are the of the "I want to PvP because I enjoy PvP" variety, rather than the "I pwn j00, n00b. l0lz0rz!1!!!111!" variety. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the latter catagory around...the sort of people who'd attack a defenceless mining craft just because they think its funny to attack anyone and anything.
Two, AFFORDING enough player pilots to form an escort is gonna be tough. Most Pilots are gonna try and make as much money out of it as possible. You're gonna have to weigh up the profit from the mining trip with the cost of the escort.
Now lets factor back in the malicious PvPers. Lets say that a few of them get together into a "Pirate" group, which a lot of people are bound to do, because it sounds "cool". Your escort has to be able to more than just keep the attackers occupied. Typically, PvP is gonna be a 1-on-1 dogfight. So, if there are 5 attackers, you're gonna have to have at least 5 escorts to deal with all five of those fighters. If you have less...say three, two of their fighters could slip through, whilst the other three keep your escorts busy. So, you need to equal (or ideally, outnumber) an indeterminate sized enemy force. Which is gonna be expensive, especially as there are more people likely to attack you than who are likely to defend you.
At least with NPC enemies (even high tier ones), there's a chance that your pilots will be able to keep two or more of them occupied, especially if the enemy fighters are flying in wing-pairs.
Basically, the odds are stacked very highly AGAINST the miners. In the same way that the CU(RB) is going to keep Crafters locked in their houses because they can't wear armour, and can get pwnd by a random mob spawn on top of them without warning, they're gonna get pwnd for flying around in an unarmed ship, if they can't get the escorts.
The end result, if you have PvPers attacking these ships, is that only Guilds are gonna be able to operate miners, because they'll have the numbers to crew one, and escort it. Thats gonna get Crafters shafted. Again. And it also makes content to the game "off limits" for those who aren't willing to PvP. JTL should be for everyone, not just those who are XvT or XWA veterans, and thrive off multiplayer pilot games. Not everyone puts as much time into their cyber-flying as some of you.
However...there's nothing to stop pilots flying escort for missions against NPCs. Its like a player-driven version of the escort missions from the grinding process...only this time, there are a few fighters up there, and players on the ship. Depending on where you go, it could be just as fun...and no PvP required.
One, finding enough player pilots to form an escort is gonna be tough, especially if there are more than one or two people wanting to harvest. You're gonna have to find people from your faction, who are willing to help, and who are the of the "I want to PvP because I enjoy PvP" variety, rather than the "I pwn j00, n00b. l0lz0rz!1!!!111!" variety. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the latter catagory around...the sort of people who'd attack a defenceless mining craft just because they think its funny to attack anyone and anything.
Two, AFFORDING enough player pilots to form an escort is gonna be tough. Most Pilots are gonna try and make as much money out of it as possible. You're gonna have to weigh up the profit from the mining trip with the cost of the escort.
Now lets factor back in the malicious PvPers. Lets say that a few of them get together into a "Pirate" group, which a lot of people are bound to do, because it sounds "cool". Your escort has to be able to more than just keep the attackers occupied. Typically, PvP is gonna be a 1-on-1 dogfight. So, if there are 5 attackers, you're gonna have to have at least 5 escorts to deal with all five of those fighters. If you have less...say three, two of their fighters could slip through, whilst the other three keep your escorts busy. So, you need to equal (or ideally, outnumber) an indeterminate sized enemy force. Which is gonna be expensive, especially as there are more people likely to attack you than who are likely to defend you.
At least with NPC enemies (even high tier ones), there's a chance that your pilots will be able to keep two or more of them occupied, especially if the enemy fighters are flying in wing-pairs.
Basically, the odds are stacked very highly AGAINST the miners. In the same way that the CU(RB) is going to keep Crafters locked in their houses because they can't wear armour, and can get pwnd by a random mob spawn on top of them without warning, they're gonna get pwnd for flying around in an unarmed ship, if they can't get the escorts.
The end result, if you have PvPers attacking these ships, is that only Guilds are gonna be able to operate miners, because they'll have the numbers to crew one, and escort it. Thats gonna get Crafters shafted. Again. And it also makes content to the game "off limits" for those who aren't willing to PvP. JTL should be for everyone, not just those who are XvT or XWA veterans, and thrive off multiplayer pilot games. Not everyone puts as much time into their cyber-flying as some of you.
However...there's nothing to stop pilots flying escort for missions against NPCs. Its like a player-driven version of the escort missions from the grinding process...only this time, there are a few fighters up there, and players on the ship. Depending on where you go, it could be just as fun...and no PvP required.
Golrok
Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:36 am
#32
groovysplat101 wrote:
t. You're gonna have to find people from your faction, who are willing to help, and who are the of the "I want to PvP because I enjoy PvP" variety, rather than the "I pwn j00, n00b. l0lz0rz!1!!!111!" variety. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the latter catagory around...
See this overusedexcuse is moot and itsa very debateable argument many will disagree with you on. Its not like RPG on the ground where one actually has time or mental energyto spam dumb crap and no one except a few idiots get big heads about it because of the randomness in death involved- it humbles players, unlike the ground game where kids believe their god andyou have time to spameach other.
No real FPS players goes around like an RPGer ubering off. They dont need to. They're actions speak for
them.They die too and it humbles them so this whole overused "ALL FPS'RS ARESPAMMERS WHEN TEH WIN"excuse sucks already. Maybe 1 out of 10 FPS PvPers spam when they win compared to 9 out of 10 RPGers.
True.. They start a pirate crew cause its cool to do or whatever.. But you know what else starts happening that you dont see? A police force forms to counter this crew without needing to be asked. And you claim "well there's not enough pilots to support something like a police force," theres not enough pilots cause this JTL is a frickin joke with no real content to it, no reason to fly other than to play Space Invaders 3D.
Its just like playing the arcade games in the convient stores onGrand Theft Auto San Andreas- No point except distraction from the main game. If they actually did something that didnt just cater exclusivelyto carebears, it might actually start becomming populated in space..
I'm not saying make all of space a big frag fest, just give us our frickin slice already that the devs took back from us when they fuct us on fixed kessel...
Message Edited by Golrok on 04-12-2005 09:48 AM
Treena_Daal
Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:06 pm
#33
You have your section of space. Deep Space. If you want PvP, go there. Why should PvP be a requirement to playing a Crafting profession to the best that is available?
xTekx
Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:39 pm
#34
Treena_Daal wrote:
You have your section of space. Deep Space. If you want PvP, go there. Why should PvP be a requirement to playing a Crafting profession to the best that is available?
And why should PvP be limited to Deep Space? Why shouldn't the peoplewho risk the most danger be rewarded for taking that risk? Why does this have to be a care-bear game? This game has many aspects to it. One of which is PvP. But the amount of carebear crying that has occured has limited PvP. Look at Kessel. Look at things that have happened on the ground. Like I said before it does not have to be Strictly PvP wise for escorting a mining ship. But having that aspect in the game is something a lot of us would like to have.
Its not about "I pwned" whoever. You can't sit there and spam unarmed hit 3 on whoever all the while yelling "I'm so uber, look at me, i'm hitting a button and you can't stop me, haha." Space is about skill in flying. Its about knowing what move to do when, and why to do it. Adapting to situations. So when someone survives a PvP fight they're usually releasing a big breath that they dind't know they were holding going wow i'm so glad I survived. Its the rush of hte fight. Its not about who pwned who. And by adding some PvP content like escorting certain mining ships that are able to be taken out by players, then it gives the game huge Star Wars feel. If you have an hour to mine, then you get your crew together, you get your escort together. You fly out there do you're best to complete the mission and get as much resource as possible before an enemy spots you and calls some back up. (I'm not sure how mining is going to occur at an asteroid, but i'm using a hypothetical situation)
Also judging by your reaction to this whole issue, are you against BH's going after Jedi? If you're just a PvE jedi you would rather not have to worry about PC BH's to? That's my understanding of where your coming from.
Treena_Daal
Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:50 pm
#35
PvP isn't limited to Deep Space. In fact, there are stations in every space zone in the game to facilitate your desires for PvP. He asked for PvP to have their own section. They have it. The only reason anyone would be in that zone is if they are looking for PvP. If you want to go looking for PvP in other places, that's your choice. And that's my point. It's my choice to not engage in PvP. I don't like it. If you like it, that should be all the "reward" you need, shouldn't it? Why do you deserve better mining opportunities, just because you feel like being shot at? If you want to play that way, get your friends together, have all of you be PvP active, and go get your great experience. But there is no reason to force it on everyone who wants to play their class well, just because you enjoy PvP. Most of us don't.
Ducimus
Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:38 pm
#36
>>Why do you deserve better mining opportunities, just because you feel like being shot at?
Risk vs reward.
Why do you deserve better mining opportunites when your not willing to put forth the extra effort?
Lets put it terms you can understand. Why should you be getting dragon loot for killing a froglok? Did you really earn the level of that loot by doing so?
of course not.
That said, JTL is an action/twitch/arcade oriented game. There are no dragons in space, only players. No high level content SOE could conjure would be as dynamic and as challenging as PvP. That said, its still optional, I personnaly would do most of my mining in a PvE zone. But no ones saying you have to try and mine the very best resources in space- but going after the best, the very best..should be an adventure or challenge, and its going to need some risk involved.
Risk vs reward.
Why do you deserve better mining opportunites when your not willing to put forth the extra effort?
Lets put it terms you can understand. Why should you be getting dragon loot for killing a froglok? Did you really earn the level of that loot by doing so?
of course not.
That said, JTL is an action/twitch/arcade oriented game. There are no dragons in space, only players. No high level content SOE could conjure would be as dynamic and as challenging as PvP. That said, its still optional, I personnaly would do most of my mining in a PvE zone. But no ones saying you have to try and mine the very best resources in space- but going after the best, the very best..should be an adventure or challenge, and its going to need some risk involved.
Treena_Daal
Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:46 pm
#37
Because the mining has nothing to do with other players. True Risk vs. Reward would be getting better loot from defeating PCs in space than NPCs.
I still maintain that PvP should be its own reward. If you enjoy it, you'll do it, rewards or not. If people don't enjoy it, they won't do it. Why is that a bad thing?
I still maintain that PvP should be its own reward. If you enjoy it, you'll do it, rewards or not. If people don't enjoy it, they won't do it. Why is that a bad thing?
Ducimus
Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:06 pm
#38
>> Because the mining has nothing to do with other players.
The whole reasons our characters exist in an MMO is to interact with other players.
But again, im gonna cite..... Galactic Civil War. We are at war with one another, remember? PvP allows you to have a decisive effect in its outcome.
True most Day to day things such as doing faction missions should be PvE, but there are cusps, or a summation of events that just screams player involvement.
For example what if the Royal Guard interceptor turns out to be the ship that garauntees imperial domination. Imperial SW's are looking to make them, and the only place the ore for it can be found is in a PvP area.
Now YOU, have the opportunity to make a difference. You can stop them, or at least slow them down! Will you stand idly and complain about PvP, or will you step up to the challenge and support your faction (assuming your rebel) and give those imperial dogs what for!?
Thats what im talking about, and why PvP does have a place, its not all about the thrill of a kill.
The whole reasons our characters exist in an MMO is to interact with other players.
But again, im gonna cite..... Galactic Civil War. We are at war with one another, remember? PvP allows you to have a decisive effect in its outcome.
True most Day to day things such as doing faction missions should be PvE, but there are cusps, or a summation of events that just screams player involvement.
For example what if the Royal Guard interceptor turns out to be the ship that garauntees imperial domination. Imperial SW's are looking to make them, and the only place the ore for it can be found is in a PvP area.
Now YOU, have the opportunity to make a difference. You can stop them, or at least slow them down! Will you stand idly and complain about PvP, or will you step up to the challenge and support your faction (assuming your rebel) and give those imperial dogs what for!?
Thats what im talking about, and why PvP does have a place, its not all about the thrill of a kill.
Treena_Daal
Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:19 pm
#39
Interact and interfere are two different things. I enjoy interacting with people. I love playing gunner or co-pilot on multiperson ships. Those are interaction without interferance. I do not enjoy interferance from other players. I see no reason for it. If that's your thing, great, go do it with other people who enjoy it.
Put some asteroids in PvP space, and let your type go after it. In fact, make them PvP rewards. Perhaps the stuff you mine there could be used to build some PvP-based shields. They work at 100% for PvP, but only at 15 or 20% against NPC ships. Have them be better than PvE shields, but not so good that you would load them up for PvE flight. Now PvPers have their rewards. They have something to go out there and do. But there is no reason to put better mining that effects PvE play in PvP zones. It's just another excuse to grief people.
Put some asteroids in PvP space, and let your type go after it. In fact, make them PvP rewards. Perhaps the stuff you mine there could be used to build some PvP-based shields. They work at 100% for PvP, but only at 15 or 20% against NPC ships. Have them be better than PvE shields, but not so good that you would load them up for PvE flight. Now PvPers have their rewards. They have something to go out there and do. But there is no reason to put better mining that effects PvE play in PvP zones. It's just another excuse to grief people.