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I'm all for giving multiplayer ships a heavy defensive boost so they can last in pvp, but it seems to me people are trying to use them as fighters and that's not what they're designed as. I know comparing real situations to a game is silly, but look at the European bombing campaigns during WW2. Until 1944, bombers usually entered German airspace without escorts. German fighters could easily attack them and bring the slow, lumbering bombers down. Losses were at an unacceptable 10% or higher. With the advent of the P-51, bombers then had a viable fighter escort for their entire sortie. Losses were drastically reduced. Your multiplayer ship is like that bomber. Go without an escort, and it won't really matter how much armor or shields you have, you're still likely to get blown up.

Message Edited by SwordNMace on 02-02-2005 11:08 PM

Hear hear Imaridril!

My entire guild comes from a space MMORPG and are looking forward to getting involved in PvP. However, so far we see pitifully few people in space, even fewer overt, and the little combat we have had has left a sour taste in our mouths (half the people we have destroyed never even had time to react). We aren't quitters, so we'll do our best to adapt to this system, but it is hard when things that we all immediately saw as flaws are so vigorously defended by that who are comfortable with the status quo.

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Imaridril wrote:

I don't know what all of you are smoking, but PvP damage in JTL absolutely needs to be decreased. I PvP in space as much as anyone on Starsider, and I can say from person experience that at least 50% of "dog fights" end before the loser even knows theres a fight going on. Of the fights where both players are aware of each other, another 50% to 70% end on the first pass. Of the remaining few that actualy turn into a melee, at least 90% end in under 10 seconds. Even large scale battles involving 20-30 players routinely end in less than 1 minute. Heck, the time it takes to run all your droid programs just one time is most likely longer than the entire length of all the dogfights you'll be in in an entire day. I dare any of you to find any other successfull combat flight sim where the PvP game play is 99% preparing/sitting around and only 1% action. There's a reason why you can go overt in space and fly around for hours without finding a single other person to PvP against. Its because almost everyone in JTL except for a small minority have come to the conclusion that PvP in JTL is rediculous and pathetic. And I'm not some whining loser who is always getting one-shotted. I win the vast majority of dog fights I'm in, yet everytime I one-shot someone in under 10 seconds I don't feel the slightest bit like a winner. I know damn well how little skill it took take him out, and I know that every time someone dies like that there's a good chance he'll be just one more player who gives up on PvP in JTL entirely. The devs need to fix WO3 and decrease PvP damage by at least another 25%. If they don't, PvP in JTL will never draw in more than a tiny number of players.

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It's not the damage that stops people from PvP'ing in space. It's the decay which is a whole different issue. PvP damage is fine. Those 50-70% of people who die on the first pass are the types who fly right at each other firing once they get around 550m. In in my opinion they deserve to die, because as we have been stating JTL requires a touch of skill unlike the ground game. You've flown with me Imaridril and you know what I always preach. Fly to around 1000m break formation and don't get into a head on head with your enemy work your way under or behind them.

As for you one shoting someone we both know why. You load loaded up heavy guns and it takes away slightly from your defense. Light Fighters should and do die in a few hits. If your using a B-Wing, Y-Wing or another fighter with over 100-140k mass there is no reason you shouldn't be able to 5 or 6 rapid shots. If your manivering and not justing sitting there taking those hits you have time to Shunt to Shield or Reinforce them.

It's about loading up your fighters to be just as effectivly defensivly as they are offensivly and for PvP you do need dual level 10 guns. Hell you don't need dual level 7-8 guns. Sure it's nice to be able to take someone down in less shots but your also going down in the same amount of shots or less.

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Kerago wrote:
Hear hear Imaridril!

My entire guild comes from a space MMORPG

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SWG:JTL is not Eve Online, and the PvP rulset there, is not applicable here.

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MericCarew wrote:

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Imaridril wrote:

I don't know what all of you are smoking, but PvP damage in JTL absolutely needs to be decreased. I PvP in space as much as anyone on Starsider, and I can say from person experience that at least 50% of "dog fights" end before the loser even knows theres a fight going on. Of the fights where both players are aware of each other, another 50% to 70% end on the first pass. Of the remaining few that actualy turn into a melee, at least 90% end in under 10 seconds. Even large scale battles involving 20-30 players routinely end in less than 1 minute. Heck, the time it takes to run all your droid programs just one time is most likely longer than the entire length of all the dogfights you'll be in in an entire day. I dare any of you to find any other successfull combat flight sim where the PvP game play is 99% preparing/sitting around and only 1% action. There's a reason why you can go overt in space and fly around for hours without finding a single other person to PvP against. Its because almost everyone in JTL except for a small minority have come to the conclusion that PvP in JTL is rediculous and pathetic. And I'm not some whining loser who is always getting one-shotted. I win the vast majority of dog fights I'm in, yet everytime I one-shot someone in under 10 seconds I don't feel the slightest bit like a winner. I know damn well how little skill it took take him out, and I know that every time someone dies like that there's a good chance he'll be just one more player who gives up on PvP in JTL entirely. The devs need to fix WO3 and decrease PvP damage by at least another 25%. If they don't, PvP in JTL will never draw in more than a tiny number of players.

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It's not the damage that stops people from PvP'ing in space. It's the decay which is a whole different issue. PvP damage is fine. Those 50-70% of people who die on the first pass are the types who fly right at each other firing once they get around 550m. In in my opinion they deserve to die, because as we have been stating JTL requires a touch of skill unlike the ground game. You've flown with me Imaridril and you know what I always preach. Fly to around 1000m break formation and don't get into a head on head with your enemy work your way under or behind them.

As for you one shoting someone we both know why. You load loaded up heavy guns and it takes away slightly from your defense. Light Fighters should and do die in a few hits. If your using a B-Wing, Y-Wing or another fighter with over 100-140k mass there is no reason you shouldn't be able to 5 or 6 rapid shots. If your manivering and not justing sitting there taking those hits you have time to Shunt to Shield or Reinforce them.

It's about loading up your fighters to be just as effectivly defensivly as they are offensivly and for PvP you do need dual level 10 guns. Hell you don't need dual level 7-8 guns. Sure it's nice to be able to take someone down in less shots but your also going down in the same amount of shots or less.

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there is no decay in deep space. so u can't use "fear of decay" as a reason why nobody pvp's in deep space. i totally agree with imaradril.

the devs have done their job well in terms of ships and chassis space. they gave the multi player ships and the heavy fighers the ability to carry more weight, so if u choose, u can load your ship with the higher end shields and armor. the problem is pvp damage is so high that the advantage of high end shields and armor is totally negated. i think this is proven in situations where light fighers and heavy fighters can eliminate each other in virtually the same number of hits. and even greater demonstrated in the incredibly short amount of time the multiplayer ships last in pvp. so i dont think giving a defense bonus to armor and shields is the right way to go but rather further reducing pvp damge is the right course of action. so i disagree with the original poster.

Message Edited by Ditolus on 02-03-2005 12:18 AM

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Ditolus wrote:

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Ducimus wrote:
Premise:

Reducing PvP damage will have 2 results:

1.) Equipment will greatly influence the outcome, and pilot skill to a lesser influence. where as right now equipment doesnt have a large impact, but mainly the skill of the pilot.
With pvp damage so high and 1-3 shot kills the norm, I feel space pvp has become mostly dependent on luck rather than a pilot's skill. let me use an analogy to demonstrate my point.


2.) Capacitor shunt to shield will make you invulnerable. Dogfights are fast in speed, opportunities to shoot very breif. Snap shots are the norm, getting behind your opponent like you do in PvE and lay into him is RARE, and only if he screws up.

Real Example - a dogfight i shouldn't have won:

I got in this dogfight with an A wing. He scored the first hit on a snap shot, but all he managed to do was take down my front shield, with no internal damage AT ALL. I immediatly shunted cap to shield. His effort wasted. It could take awhile before he scores another hit (if ever), and if he does, ill just shunt again. Kinda pointless. I score the next hit, and his ship was shredded to 10% chassis, 5% system in one hit.I use an L8 and L7 Re engineered cannons. Im assuming he was using like an L7 player made blaster.

Personally i think this fight exemplified why the damage is fine. Further Damage reduction would only further the equipment gap. I already had better equipment, it was obvious. He needed to get an RE'd cannon. Had he been better equiped i woudn't have won, as shunting wouldnt have done me any good. With cap shunt to shield with internal systems undamaged, he'd have no chance at killing me unless i made a collosally huge mistake.


That said, MP ships need a different rule set.

I dont expect anyone to beleive me, but my experience tells me things are working fine.

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ducimus i totally disagree with u where u say decreasing pvp damage will make pilot's skill less of a factor. check out this analogy.

"With pvp damage so high and 1-3 shot kills the norm, I feel space pvp has become mostly dependent on luck rather than a pilot's skill. let me use an analogy to demonstrate my point.

let's say tiger woods and i enter a putting contest. but we only get one putt each. now obviously tiger is an insanely better golfer than me. but since it's only a one putt contest, i could easily get a lucky shot off and win. but if the contest were lets say 15 putts, then tiger would most likely win since he would have a better opportunity to display his skill.

in my opinion, pvp(and only pvp)damage should be reduced beyond the initial 25% which the devs already did. i think another 30-50% would be right on. the very least the devs could do is put a damage reduction on test center to let us test it out."

a couple weeks ago i made this post in my own thread and everyone who replied agreed with me.

Message Edited by Ditolus on 02-03-2005 12:40 PM

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As someonce has posted above, learn how to setup a ship, learn how to fly it, and you will live longer.

"SWG:JTL is not Eve Online, and the PvP rulset there, is not applicable here."

Thank you for that startling revelation. The game I am referring to is in fact Jumpgate, not Eve.

Jumpgate was/is a first person space combat/trading sim/mmorpg. Despite many problems, the root of which being 3D0 flaking out on them at a critical moment and a long period where problems didn't get fixed (due to lack of developers which presumably directly related to 3D0 bailing), Jumpgate had an excellent combat system. There were flaws and complaints as with any MMO, but part of the vehemence was because combat was so visceral and enjoyable.

The flight set up was not so different to JTL. The main difference was standardised equipment as there was no crafting in the game (production could be controlled by moving resources to space stations which produced specific equipment etc.). This lead to the "one best loadout" problem but eventually the devs reached a sort of balance, where alternative combat setups were steal extremely viable in skilled hands.

The scale was not too different to JTL, but gun ranges extended farther (with higher speed/varying speed weapons) out to 1800 with the standard "best" gun and 2400 or even further with different slower projectile speed guns.

Combat lasted only slightly longer than it does here. A straight up duel where nobody ran would last 10-20 seconds.

The most fun for me in Jumpgate was big armada vs armada fights, although I did have a lot of fun with smaller wing vs wing engagements. In either case, concentrated fire, wingman support and tactical/strategic maneuvering (i.e to move towards sector exit points or refuel/repair/rearm points such as space stations) were extremely important.

I don't expect JTL to be remade in the image of Jumpgate, that would be insane. I do still feel that engagement times could be slightly increased to the benefit of all, with less effect of latency on the fight and more scope for teamwork. I don't currently see much scope for strategic maneuvering as anyone can simply hyper out to any hyper point in space, but perhaps there are things I haven't seen yet.

PS: Before anyone mentions cap-shield shunt, if engagement times are increases this would have to be adjusted in relation, for example by putting the guns off-line for a period of time. Combined with longer engagement times this would allow for one of the great thrills in online space combat: The Chase!

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quadpers0n wrote:

see part of the beauty of the system now, the parity you wanted me to explain, is that your 2 level-whatever player made 2k gun that i scoff at, are in essense just as good as the two 4850k guns that i'm using now in PVP. ok, they aren't EXACTLY just as good, but in a pinch they will do and they can be easily replenished if destroyed. you have just as good a chance of killing me as i do of killing you if you are a decent pilot, a sneaky sob, or a flat out lucky shot. =)

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This couldn't be more true. In my Dunelizard, I've got about 1400 point shields, 500 point armor and pair of 2500 damage weapons. Even with that setup, I've still destroyed every overt rebel I've found because the system is so balanced. If pvp damage were reduced, Meeuki's 5k damage mini Death Star weapons would annihilate me every time.

And no one as of yet answered my question.

Are any of you really thinking it through?

Do you want to use a 450 max damage blaster against 1500 shields or higher in a high speed PvP fight where your shots are a series of snap shots, and you ahve cap to shield shunt and other misc shield programs?

L7 Re enginneered blaster : 3000 max damage 6/6 mods. (which is acutaly a nice gun)

3000 * 0.6 = 1800
75 % of 1800 ( 1350 * .75 = 1350 )

1350 is 75% of our max damage, take this number and subtract it from our max damage

1800 - 1350 = 450.

Now apply 450 best case scenario damage against a 1500 shield that can cap to shield shunt every 20 to 30 seconds , or reinforce, in a high speed dogfight.

How long do you think that fight will go on?