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Thread: Why PvP damage is fine how it is
Tsumitsuki
Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:49 am
#14
Ok Ishould have been moreclear,what I have found in my personal experience pre-master is that you CAN dogfight if the ships are lower levels (and their equipment) but as I have progressed up the levels the number of shots its taking for me to defeat an opponent is reducing and what I am hearing from the masters is that "Deep Space PVP sucks" because you only last 1 shot against another master ship (only masters can currently enter deepspace)
The other thing I have a majour problem wih is.. WHY THE HELL is my droid/flight computer unloading it self from my ship half the time? I just took on 5 tier four ships and had to hyper out because I hit the capacitor overcharge command and was informed that I needed a droid!!!
gahhh!!
Anyway I am now inspired to make the push to master so I can talk my talk in the huge huge way that I do with full authority rather than basing some of it on heresay. =D
See you out there PvPers
Ducimus
Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:56 am
#15
Ramona_Garcia wrote:Err... how often do you have pvped in space, Tsu? That golden position on someone's tail is not something I encounter very often, unless the enemy is not aware of me, and has a slow reaction.
I was about to ask the same thing. The reason is, his suggestions like increasing shield size X 10 just sounds bad. I have never been able to get more than a snap shot off unless it was a MP ship. Players are not going to sit there and let you pound on their 10X shields. They're going to be moving at high speeds trying to get behind you, or at the least a snap shot. Acutal opportunites to fire are breif. Unless your "asleep at the wheel" said engagement of 10X sheild could go on and on tell your either old and grey, or decided just give up trying to kill your opponent.
quadpers0n
Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:58 am
#16
ramona is exactly right. right now i challenge anyone to beat me in my interceptor, with no higher than lvl 7 equipment, using master level ships/weapons/engines/guns.
but see here's the thing, i make that challenge, but it's likely someone *could* do it.
there is tremendous parity in this system, parity that would be utterly dissolved if the game were 50/50 equipment as people suggest. most people i know in space don't even have a 4k gun. most people are estatic about having their RE'd borstel reward. hell, in fact most people are content with sub 3k guns because the blaster bolts look authentic.
those people aren't going to be competing with competant pilots using 5k damage guns under a reduced damage system.
ducimus is correct, MP ships need a different ruleset and we need to keep PVP damage the way it is now. MP ships should be the JTL version of capital ships, the equivelant of fighting the number of players manning positions onboard. the developers created a fantastic dynamic capturing the feel of star wars by allowing players to run around on these ships and fix components with their toons, it will continue to be dramatically neglected under a reduced damage system.
people need to focus their energies on fixing WCO3, the greatest monkey in the JTL wrench now, then concentrate on getting massive shields/armor exclusively for MP ships. then we can play around for a while and see the dynamic work itself out and decide what needs to be done about damage. make everyone viable first, then tweak. not the other way around.
Tsumitsuki
Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:41 am
#17
10x was jsut an arbitrary number to show how the relative mods could be made but keeping the system balanced with the PVE dont take it as my "This is how it must be". 10x 5x 2x whatever turns out to be the best solution..
I dont have a 4k gun I have 2x 2k guns, both of which can easily be looted RE'd or player made and are EASILY obtainable by anyone willing to spend an hour or so shooting down ships or spending a few K with a decent shipwright.
please dont flame me for making suggestions, Im trying to argue my point's with reason and intelligence.. enough people have made enough complaints that Ive heard to suggest some modification might be in order. This only needs to get as far as play testing, if it doesnt work it doesnt work thats what playtesting is for. Its an easily implementable solution which only requires modification of data and not code (no of course I dont know the code for JTL but I am a programmer and have a good idea of how these things work, its not rocket science)
ducimus didnt mention mp ships having a different ruleset it was meric and as I pointed out it would probablycreate balance issues when going up against the NPC ships. The MP ships are already capable of better defence through being able to carry much heavier gear and therefore bigger and more powerful shields. If the problem is that any ship can carry the best shields then its the mass and power of the shield generators that needs sorting not adding a new rule-set which increases the chance of bugs arising.
In the battles where Ive been hit a few times and survived I have managed to get on someone tail and stay there despite their efforts to shake me (which one did on on occasion but I got the advantage back again).
If someone chooses to use low damage weapons because they "look more authentic" then Im sorry but they deserve to have their ships ganked if they choose to pvp. I dont know a single ground PvPer that would go into a skirmish without the very very best equipment he could buy beg borrow or steal. In that respect space is exactly the same. If youre going to fight with a pea shooter instead of a shotgun then be prepared to end up back at the space station asking for repair
Please explain what you mean by "parity" and how it would be disolved by a reductionin firepower, remembering that I argued against damage reduction for reasons stated above and for increase in defences which other people have also suggested, given that my suggestion be applied equaly to all tiers of shields and armour and woudl ONLY affect the PVP play not the PVE (because PVE ships have their firepower increased to compensate for the improved defences)
The PVE end is very well balanced as I can see (I am taking on tier 5 ships now on one toon) its only the PVP system that needs "something" done to it to give it that little bit more meat.
But as I said.. Im now making the push for master pilot so I can see the whole story for myself.. I may well change my tune or I may not, but for now I can see no reason why the mods I suggested would benefit some players and not others.
*edit* ducimus I take your point about the 10x shields could go on and on.. but that is the extreme case.. the ideal I'd be looking for is just more than one or two shots
Message Edited by Tsumitsuki on 02-02-2005 07:43 AM
Ramona_Garcia
Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:04 am
#18
Ok, let's tone down weapon damage... what will it do? Raise the bar on entry on pvp, as happened in the ground game. Do we really want a game system where you NEED to have UBER gear or you will just be cannon fodder? How many people will pvp if they know they have to get (and risk in decay) an uber gun and shield and other componetns just to be able to have a chance against the powergamers?
Look around on the ground game, then tell me how many people will pvp in space once we bork it up as bad as the ground game.
As long as you can kill anyone with any mid to high level gun, and as long as your skill in flying and aiming vastly outweighs the equpiment we have a balance.
Make gear matter more, and we will have the same stupidity as in the ground game, with only the people with the 2 or 3 RE'd uber guns and uber shields being viable.
The people who whine about getting one shotted should try to evade better, and aim better, not asking to dumb down pvp to pve levels where you can depend on your 2400 shields to take the brunt of ANY NPC fighter without problem.
quadpers0n
Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:08 am
#19
nobody is flaming youhere, we are just saying it is a poorly thought out idea. you think it's good, we think it's bad. that's not flaming.
keep in mind, when i say "authentic guns" i'm talking about player made blasters. your 2k guns are extremely mediocre, exactly the type of guns i was referring to. solet's examine a hyothetical situation.
let's say your guns do 2k damage per hit. forget refire rate at the moment, let's just concentrate on your single 2k gun landing a direct shot on a player.
let's say you have a shield of 2500 strength. your shields are down to 500 with 1 shot. ok now let's multiply that shield strength by 10.
now you have a 12500 shield and it takes roughly 7 shots to bring the shields down.
hey that sounds about right correct? 7 shot pvp. it's around what most people are asking for.
my guns are each approaching FIVE THOUSAND damage. over twice the strength of both of your guns and I am not far off from being able to fit one on the lightest, fastest ship in the game.
so you have a 12500 shield, it takes me 3 hits, all other things being equal, to bring this hypothetical player down.
seven hits against a mobile target is not as easy as it seems, and leaves plenty of oppertunity to shield stunt or escape. rebels using eshields have a marked advantage in that regard but those concerns are entirely secondary.
why should an average player who may be a slightly more skilled pilot have to succumb to a mediocre pilot like myself who simply has more time to loot better equipment? i know this is an RPG, i know you could summarily dismiss concerns from players who want to fly their light ships and be viable, or who only can play a few hours and want to be viable, however imo that kind of approach to a twitched base game is not fun.
now i know 10x was an arbitrary number, however lower it or raise it and the same scenario presents itself. we can even change this scenario to work for engines as well. newer players simply will not be able to compete with me under a damage reduction (or shield increased) system. i'll have an engine that is 30 speed faster, and likely 10-20 YPR better than them. not to mention i'll be killing them in two hits.
quadpers0n
Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:23 am
#21
see part of the beauty of the system now, the parity you wanted me to explain, is that your 2 level-whatever player made 2k gun that i scoff at, are in essense just as good as the two 4850k guns that i'm using now in PVP. ok, they aren't EXACTLY just as good, but in a pinch they will do and they can be easily replenished if destroyed. you have just as good a chance of killing me as i do of killing you if you are a decent pilot, a sneaky sob, or a flat out lucky shot. =)
when i'm not rolling around in my maxed out oppressor i'm flying a fast interceptor with what essentially amounts to junk equipment. i'm just as deadly as anyone else and that is awesome. and it's the defnition of parity. people say "well then what's the point of heavy fighters?" well what is the point of heavy fighters? what should be the point of them? if they are anti fighter support, what are they supporting, are they an all purpose fighter that everyone should be flying? PVE only ships? what's the purpose of MP ships? once those dynamics are worked out and bugs are fixed you'll see space PVP pick up, and then people can start suggesting tweaks. right now the abscence of these concerns, coupled with being surprised in PVP, bugs,and not being used to a system that encourages you not to even let an opponent point your direction, is compounding players protests.
it's not just that people hate "one shot kills", that's just what people focus on because they don't think about everything else that affects it.
Ducimus
Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:56 am
#22
>>Ducimus didnt mention mp ships having a different ruleset
Acutally i did, in my closing statements. "That said, MP ships need a different rule set."
I think i made my point as clearly, concisley, in as few words as possible. How you missed that has me wondering
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This is why i mentioned the dogfight i did in my original post. The equipment disparity already exists to a minor degree. Reducing PvP will make that gap even WIDER. If someone really wants to reduce PvP damage, im wondering why i should speak and and say, "no.. thats not a good idea".
Im 200K xp from being a master shipwright, ive aced 3 professions, i have a house full of looted parts, i RE all my own gear. I have a 3600 damage blaster and a 3000 damage blaster fitted into my T/A. Reduce PvP damage and you make someone like me into a monster
Acutally i did, in my closing statements. "That said, MP ships need a different rule set."
I think i made my point as clearly, concisley, in as few words as possible. How you missed that has me wondering
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Ramona_Garcia wrote:Ok, let's tone down weapon damage... what will it do? Raise the bar on entry on pvp, as happened in the ground game. Do we really want a game system where you NEED to have UBER gear or you will just be cannon fodder? How many people will pvp if they know they have to get (and risk in decay) an uber gun and shield and other componetns just to be able to have a chance against the powergamers?br>
This is why i mentioned the dogfight i did in my original post. The equipment disparity already exists to a minor degree. Reducing PvP will make that gap even WIDER. If someone really wants to reduce PvP damage, im wondering why i should speak and and say, "no.. thats not a good idea".
Im 200K xp from being a master shipwright, ive aced 3 professions, i have a house full of looted parts, i RE all my own gear. I have a 3600 damage blaster and a 3000 damage blaster fitted into my T/A. Reduce PvP damage and you make someone like me into a monster
Message Edited by Ducimus on 02-02-2005 10:03 AM
quadpers0n
Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:02 am
#23
Coran_Sienar wrote:LOL! Looking for that mythic Level 10 gun below 30K mass?
the white whale!!!
MericCarew
Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:20 pm
#24
I had to rush my post this morning before class so couldn't get everything out.
I have flown with ramona in space well before she reached master. I think during one of our laresgt events she was using a TIE/IN. Whatever she was in though she did a hell of a job. PvP in space is unique and in my opinion better then on the ground for the simple fact that I can take a tier 1 pilot along with me during my patrols and if we run into a Rebel he actually has to worry about both ships. Skill is what makes JTL worth playing. Sure equipment should give a slight advantage or disadvantage but it should be realtively small.
Now when I mentioned having a defensive bonus on ship types I did not mean huge bonuses. What I would look for are small bonuses that add just a shot or two more survivabilty. Anything more would turn JTL into the ground game where only Aces are to be feared.
As things stand now we can make some pretty defensive ships. I will use my Oppressor as an example. One of our recent events I took 5 player missile hits and 1 shot and still survived the engagement with about 150-200 points of armor left. My point is that you can load up a fighter that is just as fearsome offensivly as it is defensivly. What I tend to see more often then not is that people want to load up a couple level 8+ guns. Sure there nice but do so knowing you've just taken away from your defense.
Again I think Multipassneger ships need to be completly overhauled to be something worth using in combat and something to fear when you come across.
I have flown with ramona in space well before she reached master. I think during one of our laresgt events she was using a TIE/IN. Whatever she was in though she did a hell of a job. PvP in space is unique and in my opinion better then on the ground for the simple fact that I can take a tier 1 pilot along with me during my patrols and if we run into a Rebel he actually has to worry about both ships. Skill is what makes JTL worth playing. Sure equipment should give a slight advantage or disadvantage but it should be realtively small.
Now when I mentioned having a defensive bonus on ship types I did not mean huge bonuses. What I would look for are small bonuses that add just a shot or two more survivabilty. Anything more would turn JTL into the ground game where only Aces are to be feared.
As things stand now we can make some pretty defensive ships. I will use my Oppressor as an example. One of our recent events I took 5 player missile hits and 1 shot and still survived the engagement with about 150-200 points of armor left. My point is that you can load up a fighter that is just as fearsome offensivly as it is defensivly. What I tend to see more often then not is that people want to load up a couple level 8+ guns. Sure there nice but do so knowing you've just taken away from your defense.
Again I think Multipassneger ships need to be completly overhauled to be something worth using in combat and something to fear when you come across.
Narut0
Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:26 pm
#25
Ducimus wrote:
Premise:
Reducing PvP damage will have 2 results:
1.) Equipment will greatly influence the outcome, and pilot skill to a lesser influence. where as right now equipment doesnt have a large impact, but mainly the skill of the pilot.
2.) Capacitor shunt to shield will make you invulnerable. Dogfights are fast in speed, opportunities to shoot very breif. Snap shots are the norm, getting behind your opponent like you do in PvE and lay into him is RARE, and only if he screws up.
Real Example - a dogfight i shouldn't have won:
I got in this dogfight with an A wing. He scored the first hit on a snap shot, but all he managed to do was take down my front shield, with no internal damage AT ALL. I immediatly shunted cap to shield. His effort wasted. It could take awhile before he scores another hit (if ever), and if he does, ill just shunt again. Kinda pointless. I score the next hit, and his ship was shredded to 10% chassis, 5% system in one hit.I use an L8 and L7 Re engineered cannons. Im assuming he was using like an L7 player made blaster.
Personally i think this fight exemplified why the damage is fine. Further Damage reduction would only further the equipment gap. I already had better equipment, it was obvious. He needed to get an RE'd cannon. Had he been better equiped i woudn't have won, as shunting wouldnt have done me any good. With cap shunt to shield with internal systems undamaged, he'd have no chance at killing me unless i made a collosally huge mistake.
That said, MP ships need a different rule set.
I dont expect anyone to beleive me, but my experience tells me things are working fine.
hear hear.
MP ships in PVP are extreamly clumbersom and not very easy to keep shipshape. for one moveing and shooting is hard due to 3 independent people trying to work together, a few hits on the rear the pilot will try evasive actions to balance hits to the shields, that beeing the problem for gunners to keep aim.
having the ship allstop is makes MP ships a sitting duck. not to mention the blindspot at the rear of the ship where any player could come up from behind and attack from. one or two spacebombs should do it
Durgan_Kael
Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:01 pm
#26
I'm reminded of a time over Tatooine, when I was, I beleive, breaking in a new TIE/LN at 2/2/1/1. A player, I don't remember who now, was zipping around the station in a TIE Interceptor.Feeling daring, and wanting to the test the theory that pilot skill really DID matter, I fly up and asked him fora duel. We circled for a while, and I made several successful passes, eating soundly through his armor eventually (my weapons at that level didn't do much damage). Finally, he managed to slip back at me sideways, and took me out with a couple of hits. I was congratulated on a good battle. He was surprised I had lasted that long; he was a full tier 3.
I shouldn't have been able to fight him for as long as I did based on the differences in the gear we were using, but I did.
...I seem to have forgotten the point I was coming to.
Anyway, I agree with whoever it was earlier that said that there should be different defense multipliers for different ships, and I beieve that this is perhaps the best suggestion ever made on this issue. Yes, an A-wing failed to take you out in one hit. A second hit would've destroyed you, and you know it. Now, let's line that same A-Wing up against a VT-49. The MP ship is large, clumsy, and gunners generally can't shoot for sour trig berries (what SW book reference is that 
?). In short, open, easy target. 4-5 hits, maybe, by the same A-Wing will "decimate" (pathetic pun intended) the larger patrol craft with little danger to itself.
?). In short, open, easy target. 4-5 hits, maybe, by the same A-Wing will "decimate" (pathetic pun intended) the larger patrol craft with little danger to itself.Now, interceptor on interceptor, I can see a two-shot kill. Interceptors getting killed by heavier fighters in a first pass? Totally acceptable. MP ships being "soloed" by an interceptor, or even heavy fighter? Not by default. I think you should have to be an awesome pilot to pull that off against another player, and a ship-specific defense modifer is the way to go.