Jump To Lightspeed Archive
Thread: Still think pvp needs damage reduction beyond 25%
Nitwit
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:04 am
#27
What I don't get is that you recognize that the faster is the best...yet you insist on using a slow ship?? If you know what it takes to win, why aren't you using that template?
I don't like the idea of taking the damage down. Rather, the devs should give the "heavier" ships more of an ability to take damage. The reason I don't want them to change the damage is because PvE set the way it should be. Re adjusting the damage for weapons would suck. It is already hard enough for Rebels to Master Pilot unless they are in a group of 10 for the corvette mission because the dang Assault Boats take forever to kill. Also, taking away more damage would make killing those nasty Aggressors even harder.
I understand your concern of lvl 4 being able to get close to winning on lvl 5. However, the ratio should lead the lvl 5 to win more. Maybe it is my belief that the higher level should always pawn the lower level... But, if you have lower levels winning against the higher level players, in space or on the ground, you ruin the incentive for progression in a given skill. Chasisselection becomes key if you are a master pilot and you choose to get out of Teir 4/5 chasis. I don't ever ever ever see a Y-Wing own a Tie Oppressor. There is a reason that the skill tree is set up the way it is. You have to earn your way to uber craft which should almost allow you to pawn anyone flying a Teir 2 shipwith your eyes closed (if you are a compitent pilot). There should be a tilt to higher level ships to win. I don't want to see all chasis competitive against all chasis. A individual chasis should be competitive against a chasis +/- 1 Teir from it.
See what I'm affraid will happen if +25% PvP damage reductionis allowedis thatthe result will be the dualing TKMs in space. You spend 15 minutes in a dual that you are pounding fevorisly against the keyboard until someone doesn't click the right key and dies. That isn't fun. As for the group part of space, sure doing formations and actually planning out what your going to do with a wingman is fun. But the applications of this don't go far beyond PvE. You need buddies for the corvette mission, especially if your Rebel. But in Deep Space, the only time you could truely use buddies without tripping over them is against a station or clan battles. That is it. It shouldn't take 3 guys to pursue and widdle down one guy.
Anyway, nice post...I enjoy the discussion. 
gohan6420
Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:44 am
#28
I agree with you Nitwit. (Never thought I would agree with a nitwit :-p ) On the PVP reduction (no reduction)but JTL is designed and intended where ship lvl doesn't matter. It was supposed to be like the movies where anything could take or have a decent chance at anything. That is why PVP damage is sooo high
If it wasn't so high then everyone would fly the bomber types. I think thats what the devs, me, you, and hopefully everyone else is trying to get away from. Its just its hard to get the "BALANCE" issue to well balance thats the problem. Reducing damage even just PVP would do nothing but make everythingbe TKM vs TKM. You'll fight forever and it would kill space PVP. But if you boost the armorment on bombers it would increase bomber types length of time they live but not do it too much where bombers are the uberest ships.
Why do ppl always think nerfing is the answer? I believe nerf is the problem!! If something is not balance like A<B don't make B weaker but make A stronger!! So why not make heavier fighters and mps's stronger so fighter v fighter is fast but fighter v bomber isa lil slower but not so that it is way to hard to kill. Maybe bombers should last 3-4 times as long as the fighters depending on which type of bomber, the heavier the stronger, and that multiplayer ships last like 10-20 times longer.
Just a thought
Ditolus
Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:34 pm
#29
I know i'm repeating myself here. but i dont understand how u can all ignore one fact.
with the current situation an a-wing can kill a rhikxyrk in 2 or 3 shots and vice versa. how is this balanced? please explain it to me. if a heavy figher is supposed to be "heavy" then how do u justify a heavy fighter being able to be killed in virtually the same amount of shots as a light figher.
p.s. also again repeating myself. awing is in rebel tier 4 and rhikxyrk is in privateer tier 4 so the argument that higher tier fighters are faster and more maneuverable and should own all lower tiers doesnt really fly.
with the current situation an a-wing can kill a rhikxyrk in 2 or 3 shots and vice versa. how is this balanced? please explain it to me. if a heavy figher is supposed to be "heavy" then how do u justify a heavy fighter being able to be killed in virtually the same amount of shots as a light figher.
p.s. also again repeating myself. awing is in rebel tier 4 and rhikxyrk is in privateer tier 4 so the argument that higher tier fighters are faster and more maneuverable and should own all lower tiers doesnt really fly.
Message Edited by Ditolus on 12-23-2004 04:29 PM
Message Edited by Ditolus on 12-23-2004 04:30 PM
Nitwit
Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:56 pm
#30
Sounds like the devs need to tweek the Neutral Tree Ships or something...not a total damage reduction to everything! I don't know but the neutral guys kinda got screwed over when it comes to ships.
gohan6420
Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:58 pm
#31
Ummm...... One weapon would take like 3-5 shots not 2-3. 2-3 would be with 2 weapons around 3k
Ditolus
Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:40 pm
#32
my guildmates and I finally decided to do something while the devs sit and let the pvp imbalance continue. a few of us (all ace pilots) went into deep space and tried some dueling. we all realized that after about 3 mintues it was getting ridiculous. the duels were literally lasting 3 seconds. what we decided to do is we all went to the bazaar and bought level 1 guns and mounted them on our ships. then we went back and tried dueling in deep space again. We were all in agreement that it was so much better. There was actually dogfighting involved and strategy. the fights lasted anywhere from 30 seconds up to a minute and a half. I might also add one of my guildies who was with me was in an a-wing and agreed that using the lvl 1 weapons was much better and much more fun.
Gaijin42
Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:09 am
#33
IMO if you fight a multiplayer ship you should be fighting the equivelant of multiple people. That being said, there is no reason whatsoever that my oppressor should automatically outclass a light fighter. The heavy fighters should be around to have firepower to take down large multiplayer ships, they should be vulnerable to light fighters whereas light fighter should not have the firepower to take out multiplayerships effectively without getting smoked by one of their guns.
Reducing PVP damage further would not help this scenario unfold. The trick is to either add insanely high mass shields with 7k or 8k front/back or higher, for multiplayer ships like the YT, Nova, and Decimator, or allowing them to have a second shield, more armor, etc. I don't fly MP ships, but I certainly understand how unfun it is to have 5 people in your ship and be stomped by a single incerceptor. Plus, if making MP ships difficult to take down is what it would take to encourage PVP, go for it.
Marzuk147
Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:28 am
#34
"It is already hard enough for Rebels to Master Pilot unless they are in a group of 10 for the corvette mission because the dang Assault Boats take forever to kill. Also, taking away more damage would make killing those nasty Aggressors even harder."
Soloed the vette in a Ywing longprobe with crafted equipment.
I do think that the bigger ships SHOULD have a bonus to defense. The bonus to offense is automatic, in that they get extra weapon / ordinance hardpoints usually, but there is virtually no difference defensively. That makes the ship easier to hit, but not harder to drop.
Also one thing that definately needs to happen - size needs to be normalized based on mass. An 80k mass A wing should be BIGGER than the 40k mass Kihraz for example. Its ridiculus that a ship that can carry MUCH less, is so much larger.
Soloed the vette in a Ywing longprobe with crafted equipment.
I do think that the bigger ships SHOULD have a bonus to defense. The bonus to offense is automatic, in that they get extra weapon / ordinance hardpoints usually, but there is virtually no difference defensively. That makes the ship easier to hit, but not harder to drop.
Also one thing that definately needs to happen - size needs to be normalized based on mass. An 80k mass A wing should be BIGGER than the 40k mass Kihraz for example. Its ridiculus that a ship that can carry MUCH less, is so much larger.
Rikkialamay
Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:45 am
#35
Nitwit wrote:You guys can't be any more wrong about this. PvP is fine in space. It isn't supposed to take you 5 minutes to kill someone in space. Just look at the movies. Gosh dang, it only took a couple of shots.Also note, there is a reason why the A-Wings/TIE Advanced are so useful in PvP: they are quick. People fly those ships because they know that they have a better chance of surviving out there. Someone in this thread noted that there are certain conditions which are present in PvP. In science, these are called the given conditions.1.) The current gun damage is set to penetrate shields and armor in 1-2 shots.2.) There is a fixed number of ships and componets3.) Slow and large style ships make you an easy target.Therefore, people pick faster, lighter, and more manoveriable ships because they survive better in them. The only part of PvP that changes is the pilot. In science, this is called the variable. This is the hard truth that some people don't wish to hear!1.) Some pilots are better than others.Why should the devs nerf all ships until they are equal? Some ships are just simply better than others. That is why you have to EARN them. You honestly want to see a Y-Wing being able to take on a TIE Advanced? No, PvP is designed for the best of the best of the best to win. I'm sorry if that leaves some people out...but too bad. Making it "fair" for everyone makes the game suck.
i agree fully with this post, it sums the whole thing up really
S-1-l2-H-C
Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:36 am
#36
gohan6420 wrote:If it wasn't so high then everyone would fly the bomber types.
are you kiding? my awing has 1900 f/b shields along with a massive lvl8 gun. now the best someone is going to get unless they are incredably lucky or used the re loophole is around 2500. right now in pvp the only way i ever die is if the other guy gets a lucky shot and hits me first. for every hit i take i get a large number of kills in. now if they changed it so that say, i had to get hit 5 times and a tie-opp with a nice shield had to get hit 8-10 times, i would recharge my shield faster than my target is going to get those hits, and i would be unstoppable sinec im gonna get in alot more hits than the tie can.
everyone wouldnt fly bombers, everyone would fly fighters, and the fights would take forever.
what they need to do is nerf damage a bit more so that fighters can barely or almost one shot each other, while also making high level shields much more powerful. now if a bomber could one hit me in my awing but he was mounting a massive shield with 5 times the power, then it would be a different story. then it would take me 5 hits to kill, but if he got his one shot off and landed it, i would be toast.
THAT is the way it should be.
Frost1977
Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:14 am
#37
I like the raise armor and sheilds on the upper end better. stuff that is too big for smaller ships to carry.
ships like a-wings & ties aren't suppose to last long.
if you make it so that these light and agile ships get a 2nd or 3rd mistake . you unbalance it back in another direction
it doesn't matter how low dmg is if. u can't get ur guns and track a fast ship ur dead anyhow.
with dmg high 1 mistake and u win.
just raise the armor and sheilds on the high level stuff, so that they can last 10 to 15 hits.
Notch13
Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:16 am
#38
Ditolus wrote:
my guildmates and I finally decided to do something while the devs sit and let the pvp imbalance continue. a few of us (all ace pilots) went into deep space and tried some dueling. we all realized that after about 3 mintues it was getting ridiculous. the duels were literally lasting 3 seconds. what we decided to do is we all went to the bazaar and bought level 1 guns and mounted them on our ships. then we went back and tried dueling in deep space again. We were all in agreement that it was so much better. There was actually dogfighting involved and strategy. the fights lasted anywhere from 30 seconds up to a minute and a half. I might also add one of my guildies who was with me was in an a-wing and agreed that using the lvl 1 weapons was much better and much more fun.
Well you got it solved then get your level 1 guns and go pvp since its so much fun like that.. what's that you say everyone needs to get level 1 guns to make it fun for you...well if it's so much fun I'm sure loads of folks will do it. What? Some people might not want to play the way you want, oh just whine until the devs force us all to won't that be fun. Some people may not want to spend 20 minutes in a duel or be forced to get the highest mass ship, as that is what will occur if 75% reduction is done. What I don't understand is why people don't realize there are roles for certain fighter types and dogfighting should always be ruled by interceptors and light fighters as that is their main role. Bombers and heavies are for attacking large targets and bases. Teh real key would be more mass balancing to allow the MP ships and large fighters to mont better armor and weapons while leaving the interceptors to have low level components and make up for it with skill. Reducing overall damage rather than balancing ships and components will simply swing the advantage to the heavies and bombers.
tamer_bourne
Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:47 am
#39
You guys are forgetting one thing, heavy fighters made for bombing aren't supposed to take down light fighters made for dog fighting, for those into rl planes an a-10 or any of the kindwon't take down a f-18 interceptor, a f-16 or a su-27.
Their use is towreak havoc atheavy targets.
I agree however they should be able to use better equips, specially multiplayer ships.
Message Edited by tamer_bourne on 12-24-2004 09:01 AM
