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Notch13 wrote:

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Ditolus wrote:
my guildmates and I finally decided to do something while the devs sit and let the pvp imbalance continue. a few of us (all ace pilots) went into deep space and tried some dueling. we all realized that after about 3 mintues it was getting ridiculous. the duels were literally lasting 3 seconds. what we decided to do is we all went to the bazaar and bought level 1 guns and mounted them on our ships. then we went back and tried dueling in deep space again. We were all in agreement that it was so much better. There was actually dogfighting involved and strategy. the fights lasted anywhere from 30 seconds up to a minute and a half. I might also add one of my guildies who was with me was in an a-wing and agreed that using the lvl 1 weapons was much better and much more fun.

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Well you got it solved then get your level 1 guns and go pvp since its so much fun like that.. what's that you say everyone needs to get level 1 guns to make it fun for you...well if it's so much fun I'm sure loads of folks will do it. What? Some people might not want to play the way you want, oh just whine until the devs force us all to won't that be fun. Some people may not want to spend 20 minutes in a duel or be forced to get the highest mass ship, as that is what will occur if 75% reduction is done. What I don't understand is why people don't realize there are roles for certain fighter types and dogfighting should always be ruled by interceptors and light fighters as that is their main role. Bombers and heavies are for attacking large targets and bases. Teh real key would be more mass balancing to allow the MP ships and large fighters to mont better armor and weapons while leaving the interceptors to have low level components and make up for it with skill. Reducing overall damage rather than balancing ships and components will simply swing the advantage to the heavies and bombers.

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well Notch clearly u didnt even read my post that u decided to quote. if you would actually have read my post u would have read that i said our fights lasted " between 30 seconds to 1 and a half minutes. NOT 20 MINUTES !!!!!!!! and reducing damage would not force everyone to fly heavier mass ships. clearly ur of the opinion that faster ships should have an advantage, which is high maneuverability and evasion. i completely agree. but i dont see how decreasing pvp damage would negate that factor, because i have said nothing about nerfing maneuverability. and let me ask u a question. do u think heavier fighters should be able to deal out more damage as well as take more damage? my personal answer is yes. i would like to here ur answer on this. because as it currently stands with the current pvp damage, light fighters and heavy fighters deal and receive the same amount of damage since it only takes 2--3 shots to kill someone. the way it "should" work is light fighters should have high maneuverability but low offensive and defensive capabilites while heavier fighters should have low manueverability but high offensive and defensive capabilities. and medium fighters like the xwing should be right in the middle and in the end should really be the king of pvp dogfighting since it kind of averages the advantages from both heavy and light types of fighters. please also read imaridril's post at the top of page 2 in this thread. he articulates the whole situation very clearly.

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PetaByte32 wrote:

As for space, sorry to put it coldly, but if your dying alot then you need to learn to fly. Some pilots are better then you. And no amount of damage reduction will make you better then them or even equal your chances. If you dont want to die then learn more tactics or stick to NPC ships.

Tyranus

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Very well said

Hmm maybe a heavy fighter already has more weapon slots, i.e. it can do more damage, maybe you missed that I didn't. I don't want to waste my time if you are of the opinion all the ships must be "equal" in whatever shape form or fashion, or that all should be viable for dogfighting. If that's waht you want then yes your ideas are fine, if you believe their are roles for ships and a B-wing isn't simply a larger fighter then I don't see what you want. All the ship tyoes should not be "equal" or even viable in all situations. A Light fighter should handle other fighters and be able to outmanuever large bombers and heavy fighters. Bomber and heavy fighters should be for attacking large bases and capital ships and require escorts to deal with small interceptor type craft. I fail to see how reducing pvp damage serves my goals and it would seem the devs plans to differentiate ship types rather have us all fly the x wing equivalent that would shine in your model.

I have been flying in deep space for quite some time, and have a lot of encounters with rebels. Both in my oppressor and in my advanced. The two main ships i see in there are the firespray and the a wing. currently they both have good advantages in pvp. as do the adv and the oppressor. I have to say that the current system is pretty good, to a firespray the advanced is is a one hit kill, if he can hit me. and to the oppressor the a wing is a one hit kill, if i can hit it. The key to pvp in the game is with a heavy ship use fighter escorts to take care of the light fast ships like an advanced/a wing. and if you see one, hit it before it can get behind you. I fail to see how this is a broken system. In my advanced i have survived many head on passes with a firespray, because the trick is to not fly directly at them, try strafing back and forth and rolling in a tight circle, anything to throw their guns off until you can get in behind them for the kill... and in the heavy ships try and shoot them before they can get behind you. This is where pilot skill comes into play and also where your choice in style comes in, do you want to be an easy target that packs tons of firepower? or do you want to be light, nimble and vulnerable. I do agree that bigger mps ships probably need a boost in armor, but correct me if i'm wrong since i'm not all that familliar with the system. Isn't mech warrior based on 3 levels of fighters, light medium and heavy, with the same choices just presented. this is where strategy comes in.

Also, why are people going into deep space alone? i know i usually go in with a group of at least 3 other players because on my server there's enough rebel activity through deep space to warrant a group. There are a few rebels i have pretty good relationships with now and we will usually meet in deep space for a good ammount of time (once we blasted each other for somewhere around 4 hours straight). I currently am pretty happy with pvp as it stands, i'm delighted that there's finally a system in the game that's more skill based and not who's macro is more uber.

/climbs off soapbox

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Ditolus wrote:
The way you diagnose an imbalance in an mmorpg is "obselescence". You just can't make some professionss obsolete in an mmorpg. Take a look at the ground. There are several professions which have no business participating in pvp. I'm a commando, so i'll just speak for us. Everyone knows of the core group of professions that have a chance in pvp: tka, bh, jedi, cm. This obviously is not a balanced situation, and obviously the devs agree which is why they are revamping the entire ground combat system. Some people when they hear the word "balance" they think that everyone will be the same and the game would become boring. That is absolutely not the case. Just like the american government, you need checks and balances. This is where "balance" is both good and necessary. Instead of a few elite professions dominating pvp all professions can get involved in it. and all professions would have certain weaknesses and strenths, much like a game of rock, paper, scissors.

now in space the exact same philosophy needs to be adhered to. with the current damage in pvp a-wings and interceptors are the bh's and tka's of space. as i said above, the situation needs to be changed so that heavy fighters can take a pounding but be sluggish while lighter fighers die quicker but evade easier. every fighter needs an advantage and a weakness, just like a game of rock, paper, scissors. and this is how u create a competitive pvp environment in both ground and space.

Message Edited by Ditolus on 12-21-2004 03:56 PM

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Actually... here you're wrong... apart from Commando's - they do suck.

Each profession has pro's and con's to it - depending entirely on how you play. For example - a lone Carbineer sucks, but when in a group - a carbineer using area kd/dizzy can implement some riotous opposition control. Jedi lose to TK and Pikemen, Pikemen lose to Riflemen, Riflemen lose to Pistoleer/Fencer/Swordsman/Pikeman/TKA and so on. I am assuming here each player has equal access to food/buffs/armour/spice etc and has an intimate knowledge of his/her profession.

Space PvP is good... for those above who mention dog fighting in X-Wing vs TIE, 3 - 7 shots and you were toast. Nothing but dust and echoes. MP ships need a serious revamp, but tbh - I'd rather see Warcry get fixed (not that the Dev's have ever been stuck in a warcry lock to understand the issue). Y-Wings shouldn't be able to beat TIE Interceptors or Advanced. Not only does it totally negate canon - it's stupid. The Y-Wing is a bomber, the Interceptor is an Ace's ship (if you've followed any Star Wars background - although not that EU means jack in reality).

Put it another way - A-10 vs Harrier. Mig 21 vs a Vulcan. Do I need to continue the list? You cannot expect a ship/aircraft/tank/military vehicle designed to function in one role outperform a ship/aircraft/etc designed to kill the former. For those about to flame - the A10 is the "Tankbuster" and the Harrier was the primary Interceptor of it's era. The Vulcan is a heavy bomber and the Mig 21 a small fast aircraft. The Y-Wing and TIE Bomber are heavy payload ships and the A-Wing and Interceptor are small fast fighter ships.

The Y-Wing and Bomber wouldn't be obsolete if we had content to warrant them, but the devs cannot deliver that. For the heavy ships to play a key role then GCW would need to be important and we'd need to take down more than just one Corvette and a lone ISD/Rebel Base. We'd need Mon Cal Cruisers, Dreadnaughts, Interdictors etc... all part of Star Wars, all with missions and the like requiring them to be used. Until the point that the Devs realise they've delivered yet another game in Beta and need to actually add content then space PvP is good as is, pointless but quick and fun.

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Space PvP is good... for those above who mention dog fighting in X-Wing vs TIE, 3 - 7 shots and you were toast. Nothing but dust and echoes. MP ships need a serious revamp, but tbh - I'd rather see Warcry get fixed (not that the Dev's have ever been stuck in a warcry lock to understand the issue). Y-Wings shouldn't be able to beat TIE Interceptors or Advanced. Not only does it totally negate canon - it's stupid. The Y-Wing is a bomber, the Interceptor is an Ace's ship (if you've followed any Star Wars background - although not that EU means jack in reality).

Put it another way - A-10 vs Harrier. Mig 21 vs a Vulcan. Do I need to continue the list? You cannot expect a ship/aircraft/tank/military vehicle designed to function in one role outperform a ship/aircraft/etc designed to kill the former. For those about to flame - the A10 is the "Tankbuster" and the Harrier was the primary Interceptor of it's era. The Vulcan is a heavy bomber and the Mig 21 a small fast aircraft. The Y-Wing and TIE Bomber are heavy payload ships and the A-Wing and Interceptor are small fast fighter ships.

The Y-Wing and Bomber wouldn't be obsolete if we had content to warrant them, but the devs cannot deliver that. For the heavy ships to play a key role then GCW would need to be important and we'd need to take down more than just one Corvette and a lone ISD/Rebel Base. We'd need Mon Cal Cruisers, Dreadnaughts, Interdictors etc... all part of Star Wars, all with missions and the like requiring them to be used. Until the point that the Devs realise they've delivered yet another game in Beta and need to actually add content then space PvP is good as is, pointless but quick and fun.

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^yes.

Message Edited by Gaijin42 on 12-20-2004 09:35 PM

Message Edited by Gaijin42 on 12-24-2004 09:36 PM