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Thread: Still think pvp needs damage reduction beyond 25%
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The heavier ships should have a "LITTLE" bonus to the armor and shields or a Big bonus depending on the type of ship. -
Do NOT reduce PvP damage so fast fighters will still take each other out in quick blasts but take a lil longer to take on freighters.
Rite now fighter vs fighter combat is perfect!! And I mean PERFECT!!
In the movies and in RL if a missile comes at you your screwed unless you got counter-measures. Which is how it is in game.
In the movies and in rl if you get shot at you won't last if they are accurate shots. ie vader takes y-wing in 1 shot. x-wings take ties in 1 shot.
All that needs to be changed is the mps's armor and shield bonus's. As in rl and in the movies the big bad nukers always get shot at a gazillion times b4 they blow. like how the falcon got cliped by ties and turned and kicked theyre @$$'s and the b-17 getting gaint holes in their wings and still flying home.
Nitwit wrote:
Sorry to ruin your utopia here, but the higher level ships should dominate the lower ones. There are trade offs to every move in the game. You buy a heavy weapon and it does damage, but at the same time takes a lot of mass. You buy a A-Wing, it turns quick and is small, but lacks mass. Everything has a opportunity cost to it. And, with the current system players have found that the optimal PvP system is fast fighters. It makes the game more about pilot skills. Theoretically, you can achieve a "perfect" ship once you find the best RE's and loots.
Not to be rude, Nitwit, but what side are you trying to argue for? You keep saying that PvP is fine, and that you want a player's piloting skill to be the deciding factor, but then you spend the rest of your post pointing out how imbalanced the various ships are as if that somehow backs up your original arguement.
You talk about "trade offs", and I agree with you that there are supposed to be trade offs, but right now in PvP there are no trade offs. If you choose to fly an interceptor, you get it all; high speed, high manueverability, small hit profile, and high firepower. On the other hand, if you choose to fly one of the heavy fighters, you get the shaft; low speed, low manueverability, large hit profile, and firepower that for all intents and purposes is about on par with that of the interceptors. Where's the "trade offs" you speak of?
As for your question about the A-wing and the Heavy Black Sun fighter, the A-wing should win.
Why? You said up above that higher level ships should be better than lower level ships. Both the A-wing and the Rihkxyrk are Tier IV certs. By your reasoning shouldn't they be equal?
Under the current system, the stats for all ships and componets are laid out. You can choose to fly that Heavy fighter. But at the same time, you know that it is slow and will not last in PvP combat.
So essentially you're admitting that things aren't balanced, but you just don't care. Is that it? What's your opinion on the upcoming combat rebalance for the ground game? I assume you think its a waste, since by your reasoning, everyone could just become a rifleman if they want to PvP.
As to how this makes the game fun...easy, players will natually move to the "best" ships/components/skills in each profession and then it will only be the pilot's abilities which decide who wins.
Ok, let me make the question more specific. What is more fun, A or B?
Option A. PvP is decided mainly by pilot skill, but only as long as everyone chooses to fly one of only a small handfull of similar ships.
Option B. PvP is decided mainly by pilot skill,and pilots have a large number of varied ships to choose from.
Natural progession to the best template is what should happen. Not nerfing the components to that it is "fair" for everyone. I'm sorry, but if you don't like it, don't play PvP in space.
Imaridril wrote:
Ok, let me make the question more specific. What is more fun, A or B?
Option A. PvP is decided mainly by pilot skill, but only as long as everyone chooses to fly one of only a small handfull of similar ships.
Option B. PvP is decided mainly by pilot skill,and pilots have a large number of varied ships to choose from.
Option B. You currently have a large number of varied ships. But if you select the heaver ships, then you really better be an uber pilot.
See what I don't get is why you think lower level ship should be able to win over higher level ships. It would be like a Brawler taking on a Master Fencer and winning. Why? The game would be absolutely no fun if everyone had the character set to be able to possibly beat someone in PvP and possibly not beat them. No, instead, there should be a "best of the best", a goal for everyone to work towards, not only in space but on the ground. That is what makes the game interesting; the chase for perfection. Total equality makes the game very unappealing.
Nitwit wrote:
You guys can't be any more wrong about this. PvP is fine in space. It isn't supposed to take you 5 minutes to kill someone in space. Just look at the movies. Gosh dang, it only took a couple of shots. Yeah only took one pass for those TIE's to take out the Falcon.. oh wait... because of it's superior shields and armor it took it without batting an eyelash and used it's heavy hard hitting quads to clear out the small wing of fighters. Looks like the movies actually support what you are arguing against.
Also note, there is a reason why the A-Wings/TIE Advanced are so useful in PvP: they are quick. People fly those ships because they know that they have a better chance of surviving out there. Someone in this thread noted that there are certain conditions which are present in PvP. In science, these are called the given conditions.
1.)Thecurrent gun damage is set to penetrate shields and armor in 1-2 shots.
2.) There is a fixed number of ships and componets
3.) Slow and large style ships makeyou an easy target.
Therefore, people pick faster, lighter, and more manoveriable ships because they survive better in them. The only part of PvPthat changes is the pilot. In science, this is called the variable. This is the hard truth that some people don't wish to hear!
1.) Some pilots are better than others.
Why should the devs nerf all ships until they are equal?Some ships are just simply better than others. That is why you have to EARN them.You honestly want to see a Y-Wing being able to take on a TIE Advanced? No, PvP is designed for the best of the best of the best to win. I'm sorry if that leaves some people out...but too bad. Making it "fair" for everyone makes the game suck.
I've had good dog fights in Deep space lasting as long as 2 minutes because we were both evading so well until i got lucky and knocked out most of his engine and slowed him down.
Notch13 wrote:
Clearly that 75% reduction works so great on the ground lets go for it in space. Lets also add composite and buffs to make space pvp as "exciting" as the ground battles. I don't know about you but I find the ground pvp system totally screwed and wouldn't use it as an example of anything except for what not to do. It's funny to see the heavy fighter crowd wanting everyone to fly their type of fighter, because that is exactly what will happen if this silly idea gets implemented. Instead of speed everyone will go for heavy armored bomber craft and then the light fighter types will whine. 75% reduction is way too much, but seeing the way the dev team usually violently see saws the system one way or the other to appease the loudest whiners at the time expect it to happen. It's all about delicate adjustments not smashing things with mallets to fix things like this.
Same thing could be said of the Interceptor crowd. I want to see the balance that should exist. PvP should feelquite a bit like PvE. It should NEVER take 2-3 hits to kill another player. What the heavy fighters lack in speed should be made up for in armor and what the interceptors lack in armor should be made up for in speed. The "composite" of space (i.e. most commonly seen ship) should end up being the X-Wing, Dunelizard / Ixiyen, and TIE Advanced. These are the middle of the road, the best balanced ships (rather they should be). The interceptors and heavy fighters should have their niche group rather than one or the other being the only way to go in PvP.
Anyone who can actually argue against this is either a fool or is selling something. Either way they don't have the overall game's quality in mind.
Nitwit wrote:
Piloting skill is, now and should continue to be, the deciding factor.
As for the trade offs, big ships get a heck of a lot of firepower. You can load a B-Wing with huge amounts of weapons, both projectile and missile. And if that B-Wing can line up those one or two shots, than bang - they win.
B-Wings alsocan take a little more abuse than an A-Wing... So that is the trade off, speed for shielding.
Don't forget the big battle scenes of the movies. Durring the Battle of Yavin, Y-wings would get fried by TIEs in one or two shots. Same with X-Wings. Just think of how easy 30 pilots died on the rebellion side. And in Endor, shots of A-wings getting killed, in one shot, by interceptors.
See what I don't get is why you think lower level ship should be able to win over higher level ships. It would be like a Brawler taking on a Master Fencer and winning.
I agree that a Master Fencer should have an advantage over a lower level Brawler, but that's not analogous to what I'm argueing for in JTL. What I'm saying is that a Master Fencer who chooses to wear Padded Armor should be competetive against a Master Fencer who chooses towear Composite Armor. (Granted, right now that isn't the case in the ground game, but the combat rebalance is supposed to fix that.) I agree with you that a 2-2-2-2 pilot should be at a disadvantage to a Master Pilot, but the 2-2-2-2 Pilot's access to only Level 5 components and his limited size flight computer is what should create his disadvantage, and not the chassis's he has access to.
As for combat between Master Pilots, the pilot's skill should come first in determining who wins, since that's the hardest thing to work for. The quality of the components that each pilot has collected and had reverse engineered, should be the next most important factor, since that's the next more difficult thing to work for. A distant third should be chassis selection, since once you're at master, the amount of "work" you have to put into getting one chassis over another is very minor. This doesn't mean I think all chassis should be identical. I just think each chassis should be equally competetive based on its strengths and weaknesses.
Now, as for the reason this thread was started, a lot of us think that a further reduction of PvP damage would fix the current imbalance between the heavy fighters and the light fighters. There are currently three general problems with PvP...
1. The trade-off betweenmanueverability and defenseis currently tilted too far towards manueverability, thus punishing all the high-mass, low-manueverability ships.
2. The heavy firepower advantage that the larger fighters are supposed to have is not amounting to much since most of the damage they do is surplus damage that doesn't provide any real advantage.
3. Battles are over too quickly, diminishing the ability to respond to ambushes or employ group/wingman tactics
The best and most simple solution to all three of these problems is to further reduce PvP damage. It addresses all three issues with only a single variable that can be easily adjusted, plus it has zero impact on PvE. Personally I would say to start by raising the reduction from 25% to 50% and then seeing how things go from there.
Nitwit wrote:Look, i'm saying the current status quoe is acceptiable. The current version of the game has forced pilots to evolve to the "best of the best" to survive. Given the way the game's stats are setup (the components, crafts, and skills), there should be a "best" for the profession. That "best of the best" is the A-Wing/TIE Advanced.Piloting skill is, now and should continue to be, the deciding factor. You can only get any particular craft so good. Then it is up to the player to make the most of his vehicle. Currently, piloting is the only variable in PvP because you can eliminate components and ships by attaining "the best".As for the trade offs, big ships get a heck of a lot of firepower. You can load a B-Wing with huge amounts of weapons, both projectile and missile. And if that B-Wing can line up those one or two shots, than bang - they win. B-Wings also can take a little more abuse than an A-Wing... However, big ships like the B-Wing lack in turning and if the smaller, faster ship gets behind them - well, see you later. So that is the trade off, speed for shielding. Should there be more? I don't think so. Don't forget the big battle scenes of the movies. Durring the Battle of Yavin, Y-wings would get fried by TIEs in one or two shots. Same with X-Wings. Just think of how easy 30 pilots died on the rebellion side. And in Endor, shots of A-wings getting killed, in one shot, by interceptors.
Imaridril wrote:Ok, let me make the question more specific. What is more fun, A or B?Option A. PvP is decided mainly by pilot skill, but only as long as everyone chooses to fly one of only a small handfull of similar ships.
Option B. PvP is decided mainly by pilot skill, and pilots have a large number of varied ships to choose from.
Option B. You currently have a large number of varied ships. But if you select the heaver ships, then you really better be an uber pilot.
See what I don't get is why you think lower level ship should be able to win over higher level ships. It would be like a Brawler taking on a Master Fencer and winning. Why? The game would be absolutely no fun if everyone had the character set to be able to possibly beat someone in PvP and possibly not beat them. No, instead, there should be a "best of the best", a goal for everyone to work towards, not only in space but on the ground. That is what makes the game interesting; the chase for perfection. Total equality makes the game very unappealing.
nitwit i have two things i take issue with in ur argument. The first concerns ur opinion that the higher tier certed ships, ex. a-wing, are really the best pvp ships and should only be the best pvp ships b/c they are so fast and maneuverable . The heavy black sun fighter called the rhikxyrk is certed at tier 4 in the freelance skill tree. this ship is not incredibly fast and sluggish average maneuverability. the hutt dunelizard is certed at tier 1 if my memory serves(could be tier 2 but im pretty sure its tier 1). and the dunelizard is the the fastest and most maneuvarable light/medium fighter for freelancers.
the second argument i take issue with is where u state that bwings can can pack so much fire power. yes they can. but when an interceptor and a bwing can kill each other in virtually the same number of shots , then the fact that the bwing can hold more fire power is a moot point.
i would also add that just because in the films most fighers, rebs and imps, died in virtually one or two shots that doesnt mean it'll necessarily translate well into a game. just look at xwing v tie fighter. fights in that game lasted a heck of a lot longer than 5 seconds. and was a lot more fun.
Message Edited by Ditolus on 12-22-2004 12:45 AM