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Thread: A couple of thoughts (warning kinda long) Necroed For CU
SWG-Breaker
Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:48 am
#27
i cant belive i missed such a good thread. 5 stars that man. infact 5 stars to all of you.
On the subject of being different, i think it would be nice to add logos and stuff to armour, if anyones played homeworld 2 you know what i mean, you can add a certain width/height bmp image into the directory, and you can then have that appear on your ships.something like that would be cool for SWG, or more vibrant colours. striped comp armour anyone? battle decorations? perhaps even ammo belts you can drape over the top of your armour. different style armour pieces, and different shaped helmets. imagine the left and right armour braces have spikes stricking outward from them, or helmets that can have different colour visors.
these are just ideas, but it would add to the RP value loads!
EDIT: what are the other armour types? i know of bone, chitin, ubeese, comp, and mandalorian. but im interested to find out what the others are, having something out of the ordinary would be funny.
Message Edited by SWG-Breaker on 09-27-2004 01:55 AM
Sunrunner_Rove
Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:43 am
#28
While the gameplay in EQ might be balance now that they've had years to work on it I found it so incredibly boring that I didn't even last a month playing it.
Col_Osiris
Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:06 am
#29
I think I can justify this entire discussion. There are naturally going to be more people posting about Jedi because there are more people concerned about themselves and what they want to do ratherthan making the entire game better. SOE is quite frankly dumb for having taken the subject with the most postson the forums as "the most important according to fan base". The best thing SOE could do is to stop listening to the fan base and just make the game the way they know how to make games. However, the developers arent themain culprits because the geniuses behind it allis the marketing department. The devstry their hardest to accomidate every player that they are missing the big picture here. Jedi is always going to be either too hard or too easy because the core game elements (combat and player interactivity and connection to the game world) arent presently working the way a game of this magnitude should. Everything in a game like this revolves around those elements. if they dotn work, nothing else will because it is all secondary.
The problem with SOE is they are trying to solve a problem by trying out different solutions that work instead of studying what the problem really is. Im not bashing them dont get me wrong. They are trying to do what appears to be correct to them by asking the players what they want. This is admirable of them to do this, but its notthe best way to handle the situation. The thing is, just as in real life,... people dont know what they want lol.The MAJORITY of the people in this worldare fickle. Thepeople thatreally doknow what they want are the ones in the minority (the ones trying to better the game andnot necissarily their own agenda). This is why there are fewer people posting about the GCW. You could ask a smart question, "Well what if the tables were turned and the GCW posters were ther majority?" Well int hat case, the discussion wouldnt have even been brought up.
Jedi was fixed first because there was a majority of people complaing they wanteda betterJedi professionrather than a better overall game experience.Yes, the holo-grind was bad for the game.This is appearantly true. But stopping all production of the game except for thatprofession for four LIVEmonths was even worse. It seemed like the right thing to do, because more people who played the game wanted that. But since when do people know whats good for them?Had this revamphappened at a later time, when moreimportant issues that dealt with EVERY player rather than a portion (albeit the majority) was fixed, it would be a different story. So, why did they do this? Lets start from the beginning shall we?
Beta Testing Comes to an end for SWG - Players say the game isnt finished and needs to go back in production (this is the very first mistake SOE made with this game).They should have listened to the people they HAND PICKED to Beta Test the game way back when. They ignore this warning for one reason. EverQuest 2 was scheduled to release November 2003, however SWG was to be released the same year. SWG launched despite warnings of Beta Testers (of whom we as paying customers now replace)and EverQuest 2 had a surpirsing yet convenient year long delay. EverQuest 2 has been a finished product for a whole year. They spent the past year basically justadding even more polish and Voice Recordings. Its no wonder the Devs are sweating over SWG now, which Ill explain in a moment.
SWG releases its first major free publish -They recognise a need for their promised Player Cities, mounts, and vehicles. They used this element to add later after the initial shock value of the game wore off and everyone discovered the game was all in all actually kind of boring and significantly lacking. However, they released this content under the guise that they wanted players to develop skills for the core game before they added this layer. This is when my Bullcrap-o-meter flared up. Since whenhas anyone who plays games like thisever need a warm upperiod? I never have. Andin truth,the game in its core element isnt even that deep.This is appearent sinceits got holes in it all over the place (which is why the sudden craze about nerfs and revamps started early on (which is why they needed another year of development)).
Wheres my Jedi - Not long after the initial shock valueofPlayer Cities, mounts, and vehicles wore off (which wasnt long since players noticed another SEVERE lack of content in something that was suppose to be 1/3 of the overall gaming experience) people began to get irritated that they cant unlock Jedi. Truth is, Jedi at this point in time wasnt even expected to be released. I fully beleive they never planned to release Jedi until after JtL (however, that particular statementis purely speculationspeculation, so Ill let that oneslide). Nevertheless, the reason I know they didnt have Jedi even remotely ready to be released as a LIVEprofession is the simplefact that there is absolutely no way they designed a profession like that of holo-grinding with something so important to Star Wars. If they did, then the game was in the dog house from the start, and no one that had anything to do with designing that profession should be allowed to create any form of entertainment. At any rate, I honestly dont beleive they had Jedi even formulated as a profession in the least and if so, it was in the least. They mocked up a crappy thing to keep people busy and to shut them up. For the moment, it satisfied people's thirst, but it was not to last.
Why does my game still suck - At this point in time, right after the initial shock value of Jedi wore off, people really started harping on the notion that the game lacked content and was severely unbalanced. This is where SOEs decision to release too early really started to hurt them. JTL wasnt complete, and they had already used up their wild cards to keep the people happy. So what do they do? They go to the forums to find out "who" is saying "what" the most about the game. Combat, GCW, and Jedi (not necissarily in that order of importance as stated by the majority of the players) were the culprits of why the game still sucks according to the people. (Actually Smuggler was a big one too but that particular topic was allowed to slide since the origional vision for Smuggler involved JtL in the first place) So what do they do?Tthey get everyone's hopes up by telling them that changes were soon coming. Knowing EverQuest 2 would be released the same year (now 2004) they decided to play this out to fully expand their pocket book. So, they use a marketing strategy. Despite their best efforts toconvince usotherwise, they are very threatened that EverQuest 2 will steal their players at this point (at this point = today at this point in time of the present). How do I know this? Because they did the thing that no business does unless theyre desperate,.... ask the customer. In sales, you dont ask the customer what they want. The whole idea is that the salesperson already knows what the customer wants, they are there to make sure the customer gets what the company wants them to buy. But when the company has no product to sale, they ask the customer what they want to buy. Funny thing is that they werent too concerned with what the people had to say when the game was in Beta Testing....... kinda makes you wanna go "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....."
Minor fixes are made - During this time, they use the first few months of the year (2004)to make minor adjustments to some professions andthe game, and to follow through with already scheduled content releases (Imperial Crackdown, Geo Labs, Correllian Corvette, Deathwatch Bunker, which turned out very poor attempts to capture the imagination of the players because of serious balance issues) to meet a yearly quota to complete what they promised they would do within the first year.
Jedi Revamp - Now the big cookie. Time for new season turn overs to commence and for a new SWG fiscal season. Knowing JTL would be ready in a few short months, they start finishing up what they origionally planned for Jedi to be (and Im certain that even this newly improved system for Jedi isnt their complete vision though again in speculation as I surely hope it isnt). But do they do this in a hurry because as they state"...Itsvery important to thehealth of the game state to do as quickly as possible."? No. They take their time about it. Why? Because they can, only they use another guise "We want to make sure its right before we release it." They have five to six months before JTLs release. They have nothing else to do. So they have time todraw this out. In truth, It does not take them four months to completely revamp a profession, Jedi or no. I have proof.
They revamped the entire chef profession in a matter of two weeks. They make changes to existing professions on the fly. They designed the game with this particular issue in mind. The end result...a better Jedisystem than what we had (sort of), but still not four months worth of content. It still feels like a grind doesnt it? Its like it was to begin with only with a small dose of story telling lol. I only have one question. If they spent all this time because they wanted to get it right, then why is it still wrong? They developed this game in two years. Taking into consideration how big the game is, and what they had at the end of those two years, somehting just doesnt add up. Four months on a profession alone, and it sitll isnt right? if I were to factor in all 33 professions including Jedi, and take four months a peice (and thats just for an operational profession, nevermind if it works 100% as planned), thats 132 months of production. Twelve months in a year, times two for the number of years they spent in production (technically 3 since this entire season we're in now will be considered production).So roughly 24-36 months of productionfor the whole game (depending on how you look at it). You could even add in the intial two years they spent on design alone. Thats another 24 months which brings us up to what, 48-60 months. Thats still not even half the time it should have taken on the professions alone. HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! No wonder this game is in such bad shape!!!
Whats to come - SOE is banking that JtL will keep their player base interested long enough for them to revamp the rest of the game. Starting with the combat system, then moving to the overall content (GCW), and on with the rest of the professions and revamping them according to the new combat system and usefulness in the GCW. After that, I predict a few more adventure zones like the DW Bunker and such, followed closely by a new planet or two in an expansion released around October of next year ( which will go into production immediately after JtLs release).
This is the truth behind it all. Im not writing this to make people bicker at SOE. Im writing it so there is no confusion in whats really going on. SOE isnt making this game for people to have fun. Theyre making it to make money. Will EQ2 be like this? No. Why not? Because they cant afford to lose peoplein that game. That is their bread and butter in this field of development. SWG was merely aside project of theirsso people actively stay with their company for each consecutive year. And it all boils down to a statistic. yeah, they send us out nice team letters, and nice screenshots of new stuff, and really butter us up about things that will inevitably be less than what they made it out to be. But do not be fooled by this as its all slight-of-hand propaganda.
They keep saying that they are having trouble giving the people what they want, and making a good game. My bullcrap-o-meter just goes hay-wire when they say that. They know how to make a good game. They just want to Josh us around as long as they can because they know that the single most important thing they have going for them is that they have the Star Wars liscense.They control what kind of Star Wars action we see in an MMO and what we dont see. They arent struggling to keep up. Theyre way ahead of us lol. I gurantee that.
This is a repost from another forum that I replied to, so as such I will modify and clearifyfrom henceforwarth for this particular subject.
Problems that existed in other games that took a long time to iron out, shouldnt exist in a later game because theyve already ironed these issues out.... I see the same problems needing ironed out in every game. This is because every company is trying to keep a competitive edge, and they dont sitand study their competition and learn from mistakes.
Youre three step plan is great in theory..... but we havent finished with step one yet, so we cant possibly go to step two. This is essentially where the major conflict lies. Step three isnt even an issue because the people will pay what ever they have to if they want to play the game. The only time this becomes a problem is whne the developers fail to deliver on the first two steps. Which is our very scenario. The playersHAVE been very patient. Yeah, theres been a lot of complaining, but theres alsobeen a lot of waiting. Waiting that is costing us money. And waiting takes patience. And we wait because thats all we can do... is wait.... and be patient. But dont take away or complain about the players' right to vent their frustration. Just because youre super human and dont need to vent, doesnt mean someone else doesnt.
Ive said my peace..... Commence with your flames!!!
antonin
Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:07 am
#30
EQ2 has EQ to learn from, the mechanics in SWG are different from any other mmo out there and is why we love it. Btw I agree with the poster. I always have to laugh when I see people complain about bugs- try Ultima Online when the next expansion comes out and I'll betit will make you appreciate SWG.
Gawzeera
Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:38 am
#31
I love this game, I have since i first started playing it.
I'll admit that i was put off by the forums and others who i had spoken to that had played in the beta, but after see'ing the E3 screenshots for JTLS i knew i had to get SWG. 
I hate how most of the posts on the forums at the moment seem to hate mongering and people saying "I quit cause i cant get Jedi in a week" etc etc etc. I wonder how many of those people actually quit and how many are just saying that cause they think it will get them noticed.
another type of post i dont like or appreciate is the constant flamming of the dev team. for a game this huge I think they do a great job especialy because players cry out for more content yet when the devs add it(the village) the get flammed by the same people who were begging for more content all saying that its to hard or takes to long.
SWG is my first MMORPG and its not a genre i thought i would enjoy much but thnx to SWG, i now play nothing but SWG and have a grand time doing so. there isstill plenty in the game for me to do and with the addition of jtls in the next few months and then the revamp some time there after i have no doubt thatother than jtls i will not need to purchase another game for a good long while(ooohh wait i forgot about GTA:San andreas and WWE raw vs smackdown 2 of the only console games worth buying.)
Sapanther
Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:52 pm
#32
Sorry to dissapoint you but this isnt a flaming thread ... you may not have noticed something about SWG ... it is an entirely new game ... when it first came out NO ONE had thought to add purely social classes to the game ..... now we have people out there throwing flames at the devs for not paying enough attention to them ... how can you justify saying the devs dont want to make a game thats fun ... your thinking of the people in accounting ... the devs reputations are on the line here folks ... plain and simple ... if they make a game that sucks ... and dont care about how we view it ... they wont be able to get another hot job .... they will stop loving what they do ... and they will get out of the feild ... they so want to give us a game we will never want to leave ... plain and simple ...
Crystalis_Jedi
Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:37 pm
#33
Good post, but a few core things you have a skewed perception of:
Col_Osiris wrote:
They revamped the entire chef profession in a matter of two weeks. They make changes to existing professions on the fly. They designed the game with this particular issue in mind. The end result... a better Jedi system than what we had (sort of), but still not four months worth of content. It still feels like a grind doesnt it? Its like it was to begin with only with a small dose of story telling lol. I only have one question. If they spent all this time because they wanted to get it right, then why is it still wrong? They developed this game in two years. Taking into consideration how big the game is, and what they had at the end of those two years, somehting just doesnt add up. Four months on a profession alone, and it sitll isnt right? if I were to factor in all 33 professions including Jedi, and take four months a peice (and thats just for an operational profession, nevermind if it works 100% as planned), thats 132 months of production. Twelve months in a year, times two for the number of years they spent in production (technically 3 since this entire season we're in now will be considered production). So roughly 24-36 months of production for the whole game (depending on how you look at it). You could even add in the intial two years they spent on design alone. Thats another 24 months which brings us up to what, 48-60 months. Thats still not even half the time it should have taken on the professions alone. HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! No wonder this game is in such bad shape!!!
For one thing, since about Christmas last year, the Dev team that worked on SWG during it's development and through beta was split. One side working on live content, the other side toiling over JTL. Two, Chef was a matter of changing numbers and adding a few bits of new art. The Jedi revamp consisted of a full re-balance, new art, new story, new abilities, skills, and in the end, an internal PvP system. Jedi also touched base on a few other professions, such as BHs, but that was minor. And that's just the first part of their two part revamp.
The second part added a new village, new stories, an in-depth (although slow and grind-like) system in which you unlock your force-sensitive being, all while engaged in a story. As much as a grind as it is, the FS quests and Jedi trials are probably the more "content" rich systems in the game. I use quotes because I'm a firm believer in player content being superior to anything the devs can deliver.
So, 4 months? Yeah, it makes sense. I'd like to see you sit down and do all that in four months time, art, code, and all. I'll bet you never programmed anything in your life, because if you have, you'd know better.
This is the truth behind it all. Im not writing this to make people bicker at SOE. Im writing it so there is no confusion in whats really going on. SOE isnt making this game for people to have fun. Theyre making it to make money. Will EQ2 be like this? No. Why not? Because they cant afford to lose people in that game. That is their bread and butter in this field of development. SWG was merely a side project of theirs so people actively stay with their company for each consecutive year. And it all boils down to a statistic. yeah, they send us out nice team letters, and nice screenshots of new stuff, and really butter us up about things that will inevitably be less than what they made it out to be. But do not be fooled by this as its all slight-of-hand propaganda.
They keep saying that they are having trouble giving the people what they want, and making a good game. My bullcrap-o-meter just goes hay-wire when they say that. They know how to make a good game. They just want to Josh us around as long as they can because they know that the single most important thing they have going for them is that they have the Star Wars liscense. They control what kind of Star Wars action we see in an MMO and what we dont see. They arent struggling to keep up. Theyre way ahead of us lol. I gurantee that.
Wrong. Why is it such a hard concept to grasp? SOE is not the developer. They don't make the game. SOE is the publisher. They fund it, market it, box it, and sell it. They have very direct input on how the game is made. None of the SOE people code the game. That what they pay the devs for, and it's up to the devs to decide what goes into the game.
And if you think all they care about is the almighty dollar, I can gather you've never designed something of your own. I can also guess you've never poured your heart and soul into something to make it the best it can be. Yeah, you might want to sell it to make money, but that doesn't mean money is all you care about. Trashing the devs like they are little more than greedy money-grubbing corperate suits is not only pointless, but makes you look childish. Remember they are human beings, too, and not all humans are that greedy.
Problems that existed in other games that took a long time to iron out, shouldnt exist in a later game because theyve already ironed these issues out.... I see the same problems needing ironed out in every game. This is because every company is trying to keep a competitive edge, and they dont sit and study their competition and learn from mistakes.
Again, SOE is just the producer. They don't code the game. It's not like these are the same devs that worked on EQ. These are new developers. Furthermore, it's not like all devs in existance come together every year on a "what works what doesn't" meeting, sharing source files and bug reports. Each game, its code, and its bugs are all different. Compare SWG to EQ all you want, but just because they have the same publisher and genre, doesn't mean you're not comparing apples to oranges.
I've said my two cents.
Message Edited by Crystalis_Jedi on 09-27-2004 05:38 PM
Crelus
Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:55 pm
#35
Sorry Col_osiris, I have to dissagree with most of what you said. SWG is way more complex than any other MMOG. There is so many completly different things to do in this game. You really can do what ever you want. There is no restrictions, and no real limits besides game balancing. Everyone is always complaining about the grind. Maybe those that are having so much problems with the grind should just stop and take a break from it. Stop being so obsessed with the destination that you miss the scenery along the way.
The amount of high level netcode in this game is increadible. I am a Programming student, and know some of the stuff that goes into making these types of games. These Dev's are very good at what they do. If they were not, this game wouldn't exist. Sure there are some bugs. That is to be expected. Add more code, and there is a chance that something else gets bugged (using the same variable or whatever). I can't even begin to imagine the number of man hours that goes into this game. I am sure it makes the amount for Windows 2k/XP look like a joke. In the 10 months or so I have been playing I have only once found a bug that made me stop playing for a session. That was fixed on a server restart.
I highly doubt that the developers/designers have ever been really hard pressed for ideas in this game. There are so many possibilities and options for this game, I can't see it stopping anytime soon. The toughest part I am sure is figuring out how to make these ideas work in game. The development team went to the players for imput not cause they were out of ideas, but because they wanted feedback. The product is made, they just needed a focus group. The only thing we can agree on, is that SOE did make one mistake. They listed to some players they probly should not have. If anything they should have a select group of players that toss ideas out to devs, not just any "l33t d00d" who pays his $15. Heck let 1000 players play for free on a basis of "testing and Quality control". I don't play on test center because I don't like the idea of spending my money to test for someone else. Toss in an incentive, an you would have no problems finding hundreds of qualified QA people to help them make more/better content.
In the last 1 year this game has evolved on a constant basis. So much change, and always something to do. Just imagine what these great programmers can do if you give them 5 years.
I am so looking forward to SWG 2
The amount of high level netcode in this game is increadible. I am a Programming student, and know some of the stuff that goes into making these types of games. These Dev's are very good at what they do. If they were not, this game wouldn't exist. Sure there are some bugs. That is to be expected. Add more code, and there is a chance that something else gets bugged (using the same variable or whatever). I can't even begin to imagine the number of man hours that goes into this game. I am sure it makes the amount for Windows 2k/XP look like a joke. In the 10 months or so I have been playing I have only once found a bug that made me stop playing for a session. That was fixed on a server restart.
I highly doubt that the developers/designers have ever been really hard pressed for ideas in this game. There are so many possibilities and options for this game, I can't see it stopping anytime soon. The toughest part I am sure is figuring out how to make these ideas work in game. The development team went to the players for imput not cause they were out of ideas, but because they wanted feedback. The product is made, they just needed a focus group. The only thing we can agree on, is that SOE did make one mistake. They listed to some players they probly should not have. If anything they should have a select group of players that toss ideas out to devs, not just any "l33t d00d" who pays his $15. Heck let 1000 players play for free on a basis of "testing and Quality control". I don't play on test center because I don't like the idea of spending my money to test for someone else. Toss in an incentive, an you would have no problems finding hundreds of qualified QA people to help them make more/better content.
In the last 1 year this game has evolved on a constant basis. So much change, and always something to do. Just imagine what these great programmers can do if you give them 5 years.
I am so looking forward to SWG 2
Sunrunner_Rove
Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:00 pm
#36
Wrong. Why is it such a hard concept to grasp? SOE is not the developer. They don't make the game. SOE is the publisher. They fund it, market it, box it, and sell it. They have very direct input on how the game is made. None of the SOE people code the game. That what they pay the devs for, and it's up to the devs to decide what goes into the game.
And if you think all they care about is the almighty dollar, I can gather you've never designed something of your own. I can also guess you've never poured your heart and soul into something to make it the best it can be. Yeah, you might want to sell it to make money, but that doesn't mean money is all you care about. Trashing the devs like they are little more than greedy money-grubbing corperate suits is not only pointless, but makes you look childish. Remember they are human beings, too, and not all humans are that greedy.
Again, SOE is just the producer. They don't code the game. It's not like these are the same devs that worked on EQ. These are new developers. Furthermore, it's not like all devs in existance come together every year on a "what works what doesn't" meeting, sharing source files and bug reports. Each game, its code, and its bugs are all different. Compare SWG to EQ all you want, but just because they have the same publisher and genre, doesn't mean you're not comparing apples to oranges.
I've said my two cents.
Message Edited by Crystalis_Jedi on 09-27-2004 05:38 PM
Actually if you check SOE is the developer and Lucas Arts is the publisher. Lucas Arts licensed the rights to Star Wars to SOE to develop it. Lucas Arts gets input as to how they use that name but development and content is created and ultimately controlled by Sony.
Also I don't know for sure but I would be willing to bet that Sony brought over at least a few Dev's from EQ. It would be pretty poor management if they had in house talent with extensive experience in online games and ignored it to create and entirely new team.
Col_Osiris
Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:11 pm
#37
To Crystalis_Jedi:
This is a classic case of someone defending devs/producers/Lucasarts/SOE/whoever has a hand in making this game, because they really enjoy this game and want to let people know that they care about this game, and for that I salute you in going about informing people in your own way. I just want you to be absolutely clear ononething which I will state when I get through with the rest of what I have to say. I tried to avoid going into a really deep synopsis of all this the first time, but because people cant see past their nose when they investigate things, then I guess Im going to have to clearify.
I say SOE because yes they are the producers, which you have pointed out for me, so I didnt see a need to because I knew someone wouldnt be able to resist and would just have to try and get technical with meas if I didnt know already, which means they control the money. And whomever controls the money controls the product, end of story. I didnt bash the devs or really SOE in anything I wrote. I just simply wrote a very rough draft of a timeline of events. In fact I defended the developers myself in the very first paragraph..
For your information I am very aware of how difficult it is to make these games, and I am also very aware that at the end of the day, no matter how much effort the devs really and truely put into these games, no matter how much they really wanted it to be great, is allcompletely irrelevant. What is relevant is that at the end of the day, when the "money man" says to put the product out, its going out, whether its ready or not... period, end of story. The devs do a good job with keeping up with everything Ill agree with that. But they arent the ones that decide what goes in andwhen it goes in. Granted Ill give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they probably have input into what a realistic goal they can accomplish is, but even still, thats only a suggestion, and even if they dotn complete that goal, its still going to be released because the money man says to release it. I have no doubt that every developer on the team wants to do the best they can, but if they are told to release it when it isnt ready by the marketing folks, because THEY read it off the forums (to which I direct you to my first two paragraphs in my origional post), then of course its going to be lame and lack luster. They make the games changes and content as needed, and the "money man" a.k.a Marketing Department, which evidently from what you have said is SOE which only constitutes everything Ive said, decideswhat and justwhen exactly to release it.
The statement you said about them splitting the teams, again, has no relevance to anything, except to further prove what I said that they make poor decisions. This Jedi revamp shouldnt have taken them 4 months. What you peopleREALLYfail to realise is thatdevelopers dont make games anymore by hardcoding everything in the game, and yes that is VERY difficult and time consuming. I know this becauseI really do know what programming is like as I went to school for it for two years. Instead they use something called a toolset. This toolset, however complex it may be,allows them to go in and make changes to anything they want as they see fit, with beleieve it or not, ease. Thats why its a toolset. Wanna know how easy it is? Ever play around with the Aurora Toolset from Neverwinter Nights? Pretty easy. Thats how easy it really is for them. However, to someone that might notrealise exactly how complex SWG is, then tothat person, it would be like using the Unreal Toolset, which is pretty easy to get lost in if you dont know what youre doing. The devs know what theyre doing, and they know how to use the toolset they have for SWG..... they built it. The hardest and most timeconsumingpart will be the scripting. But, I really dont see that much scripting going on, however, I will withdrawal that statement because we have yet to see exactly how much "content" they put in as no one has gone through the whole Jedi FS unlock quest from starting at square one to the actual unlocking, with no previous holo-grinding in play. Yes, it took them a long time to build the toolset, but it was the very first thing theybuilt, three years ago (actually before then, during the desiging phase they were building the toolset.) With their toolset, they are allowed to make changes very easily and quickly to just move numbers around, create new zones, or revamp a prefoession. So what takes all the time up? The actual process of thinking what to built.... designing.
But nevermind that, even if it did in fact take them all four months, in the end,it wasnt ready, and they specifically told us it would be released when it was ready. Well, news flash, it wasnt. And Im not talking about little bugs here and there as youll never be completely rid of those. Im talking the change they said there would be. They wanted to get rid of a grind because it wasnt healthy for the game? Why are people still grinding? Its still a grind. Wheres the four months of game development and the 556k or how evermany it was stated earlier in this postof player input to help change the Jedi system? Out of all those people's posts, the best they could come up with was another way to grind out experience? Sorry, I dont buy that. And even if that was the best idea they could think of, this is constituted as designing, I still dont see the time consumption in making the product they have given us. But hey, theyre humans too and they make mistakes, so Im not mad at this. Im just mad they lied about it.
Oh and by the way, about that team split up that you said happened, I dont recall them ever saying they split any team up, because they brought in an entirely different team to build JTL. However, because Im human, I know I make mistakes just as they do,thus, Ill go along with that idea, but only becauseI know if they did do that,it wasto ensureJTL would hit the scheduled fall release which only again proves that the marketing company (SOE) is really in control. Which by the way, atChristmas time, the game was already starting to dwindle by the player standard as appearant in the posts. So youre telling me that at Christmas, when they split the team up, which would take away from our LIVE experience that we pay for currently, that was already going downhill....... youre okay with this? Sorry, we have different opinions on how much tolerence a customer should have for a company selling them something. But as youre intitled to your ownopinion, I wont try to prove you wrong on that, even though the evidence is self explanitory.
With all that being said, you could come back and say, "Well excuse them for trying to run a business and make some money." Im not mad at them for making money. Im mad at them for ripping us all off with a crappy game,and then turn around and lie about their goals and progress, and then realising they screwed up when they dont meet expectaions of what they lied about, and turn around and try to blame us for it. And its crappy, not because of a lack of effort, but a lack of patience, and a yearn for profit. NOT on the players' fault, as we have every rightto be mad about this (even though some people doadd unnecissary fuel to the flame), but by fault of the marketingdepartment. Am I bashing someone here?Saying negative remarks? No, Im stating only the truth. The only thing is, no one likes this truth becauseit proves that SOE has got the upperhand on us all.... and no one likes to feel like theyve been gotten the better of.
Now then, before everyone gets all upset, Im not singling out and undermining induvidual SOE emplyees'(nor Lucasarts for that matter) hard work, or desire to really make this game a good game. That is not my point here, and if someone percieves that in anything I have written, then you need to read what I wrote again and try to rebuttle what I have said with something other than "Youre just trying to write slanderous remarks about a big organization, and youre all wrong in what you have said because you obviously dont know how to put your heart and soul into something."
This brings me back to my first paragraph whenI said I wanted you {Crystalis_Jedi}to be clear on one thing....
Do not pretend you know me, or anything about me, because you have read a very purposefullyillspecific passage I have written on these forums. Your personal attacks towards me were completely pre-emptive and thought out before you even read what I wrote,becausethey sounded like you werent just attacking me, but everyone elsethat feels scorned by SOE in the decisions theyve made and want to vent their frustration. What right do you have to come on here and start flaming me and writing very, for lack of better word, hurtful remarks, about me, when this topic has absolutely nothing to do with me. This is about SOE and SWG (and Lucasarts if you want to trhow them in as the Developers), and I havekept it as such, up until now,through a point of view of my opinions and certain facts that are appearent to everyone by which my opinions are based. I do no appreciate you comming on here and and insulting me with remarks that I have no ambition, skills, interests, passions, abilities, knowledge, and/or intelligence except those of a completely vile and insidious nature if existent at all.
The only difference between you and me is that I no longer giveSOE/Lucasrts the benefit of the doubt that they have no interest in protecting their products reputation by any means necissary, which may or may not include themkeeping things from us, the players, the customers, certain truths that would do more harm towardsthecompanythan good. I have excepted thePOSSIBILTY that SOE and Lucasarts isnt just a bunch of puppies, flowers, and sunshine; that it is possible they are a corporation that will in anyway legal, however underhanded it may be, get their hands onour money. Is this so hard to beleive? I mean, am I just thinking too deep into this? Is this so "out there" that Im the only one that can understand it? *Sigh*
These forums were built so people like me (and if you ever needed to) canlogin and vent their frustration. ItsSOEs gift to us.They know people are going to be unhappy, they know they cant take care of every issue with their "ticket" program.Dont you think they have departments somewherein the SONY corporation that deal with and study for events and situations just like this? They have a craft and they are trying to perfect it just like anyone elses craft. We pay for something, and when it doesnt work, we come on here and flame..... Thats what we do. Do not take that right away from us by telling us that were wrong and you just want it to stop. SOE is trying to do that at this very point in time by telling us we need patience. BULLCRAP! First of all,Im not wrong, and second, people who come on here and vent dont want to be told theyre wrong, because that makes it even worse. So youre efforts to make people stoponly makes it worse. Andthrid, if it werent for the unhappy customers... the people who think SOE is doing a bad job,... nothing in the game would change for either better or worse.
If youre tired of it, dont read it! This isnt brain surgery nor is it hard to figure out! Just because you think Im retarded for wrighting somehting that to you doesnt makeany sense, what does that make you for having read it,.... and then reply to it!? Ill fully expect to read a reply to this sometime in the near future from you. If so, then I urge you to reread this last paragraph. I am excused from this particularparagraph given the context that I am defending myself. If you dont reply then everything Ive said has no counter and its all true. Either way, you look like the fool, not me. I hope this makes you upset because thats how I get when someone takes a negative tone when talking about me, when they dont even know me.
Oh and by the way, I know these arent the same devs that work on every other MMO. Of course theyll run into problems. Im talking about other things that is common sense that they could have learned from.... like releasing an unfinished game, they did this because EQ succeeded even though it was releasedin seriously bad shape (the only thing is EQ was the only game around that was like that, so its not like people had a choice to play something else or had any previous experience to judge by), andover promoting the product. This was the biggest hit to them because the players were very confused when they compared the hype and what they were lead to beleive SWG was going to be like by the marketersto the actual result (which again takes a little common sense on the players part to know better, but were thinking as if were themarketers who know everything and the customer knows nothing).
Col_Osiris
Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:17 pm
#38
Sorry, I meant to make all that writing gray. I kno wits hard on the eyes.... I forgot and remembered right after I hit submit post.
Col_Osiris
Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:20 pm
#39
And for the record, SOE doesnt just handle the paper work. They also have a partnership with Lucasarts in the actual developing/designing the game. SOE does handle most of the issues with the direct communication to the public however. And thats mainly who I am talking about when i say SOE. But, Im sure it goes higher up than that.... thoughI dont know.