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Thread: Concerning the Pro's of Forced PvP Mastership......
Cuality
Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:34 pm
#27
maybe the devs figured out that the hardest creatures in the game are other players. Maybe they decided to make master pilot so difficult to reach... they would have to find a way around the hardest creature in the game. Yes... it forces you to pvp... but in all reality, there really is no way to differentiate between a player and an NPC in space... everything is a target.
Also... how hard is it to get together like 5 friends and fly around looking for stuff to destroy? most of these "griefers" in fact have no friends to play with.
Vicotnik
Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:51 pm
#28
Considering the fact that I could name at least one PA full of griefers... Not quite true.
Cuality wrote:
Also... how hard is it to get together like 5 friends and fly around looking for stuff to destroy? most of these "griefers" in fact have no friends to play with.
CyberData4
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:00 pm
#29
maybe the devs figured out that the hardest creatures in the game are other players. Maybe they decided to make master pilot so difficult to reach... they would have to find a way around the hardest creature in the game. Yes... it forces you to pvp... but in all reality, there really is no way to differentiate between a player and an NPC in space... everything is a target.
Also... how hard is it to get together like 5 friends and fly around looking for stuff to destroy? most of these "griefers" in fact have no friends to play with.
No one is really debating that. I actually agree with you for the most part. But if that was the case then they should ahve made that viewpoint know well before they said "PvP will be consentual." The mistake as I see it is using PvE content for certai players as a medium for PvP players. The two have not, do not, and never will mix well. I'm all for open PvP sectors, and I plan to spend 80% of my time their doing my thing.
But for players that don't want to deal with that facet of gameplay the fact that the devs don't even have the professional integrity to be vocal about this feature and stand by it speaks volumes to me. As I stated eariler, I'm looking at this from the perspective of a non-pvp player. A perspective that I do not share, but do respect. We have our playground, let them have theirs.
Cuality
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:42 pm
#30
Yeh, they should just come out and say: ATTN: the last mission will take you into Kessel and you may come under fire from your fellow players. They should take it out of the zones, if they want to come in voluntarily... then fine... or maybe don't make it so dependant on shooting down a mess of ships... i mean, the privateer master quest should have you being chased all around the zone... not destroying anything, just being jumped by imps left and right... you don't have to kill anyone... but you are in such a state of dodging and twisting and trying to evade everyone... in essence making it the kessel run.
CyberData4 wrote:
maybe the devs figured out that the hardest creatures in the game are other players. Maybe they decided to make master pilot so difficult to reach... they would have to find a way around the hardest creature in the game. Yes... it forces you to pvp... but in all reality, there really is no way to differentiate between a player and an NPC in space... everything is a target.
Also... how hard is it to get together like 5 friends and fly around looking for stuff to destroy? most of these "griefers" in fact have no friends to play with.
No one is really debating that. I actually agree with you for the most part. But if that was the case then they should ahve made that viewpoint know well before they said "PvP will be consentual." The mistake as I see it is using PvE content for certai players as a medium for PvP players. The two have not, do not, and never will mix well. I'm all for open PvP sectors, and I plan to spend 80% of my time their doing my thing.
But for players that don't want to deal with that facet of gameplay the fact that the devs don't even have the professional integrity to be vocal about this feature and stand by it speaks volumes to me. As I stated eariler, I'm looking at this from the perspective of a non-pvp player. A perspective that I do not share, but do respect. We have our playground, let them have theirs.
Balzan
Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:07 pm
#31
Slarus wrote:Pilot Proffesional, i agree with........However, there is one thing i think SOE should do for this last part......the greifers, or anybody who does not have this mission.....can only go in the zone once every half an hour or so. I think it is sad that people try to ruin the game. This would be a great system if it weren't for people like that.This sytem needs a little cleaning up..........*ding* idea here.What if they scrapped these missions for pilot mastery. Made the missions in a non-PvP zone. However, once you master, you can go BACK to that trainer do his mission(the Forced-PvP one), and IF you complete it you get an expairimental reactor, an expairimental shield, and........a "Lady Luck" hardpoint attachment (completely optional that last one, just an idea, truthfully, doesn't matter too much to me). When you attach that optional hardpoint to the SoroSub it loses its invincibilty but you can mount one wep on it.Still, i think the system could work it it weren't for greifers......but there are greifers, and there is sadly, no real way to stop them.Good idea, I love, except leave the Party Barge out of it. Those who want the cert to fly Multi-player ships and hate PvP can do so, those who want a bonus can try PvP. I hate PvP but I might redo a mission for some cool gear. It doesn't stop griefers, but lets people achieve thier goals in the game.
For once Slarus I agree with you...
Tover
Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 am
#32
Bloodseeker_real wrote:
However I trust that griefing shouldn't cause THAT much of a problem.
In every MMO I have ever played, griefing has caused huge problems. None of them have created such a griefer friendly envirmonment as these master level missions do.
Problem layout:
1: As more time goes by, and the population in Kessel increases, it will become more difficult for people to escape griefers.
2: As more time goes by, and the population in Kessel increases, it will become more difficult for pilots who just want some clean PvP fun to escape being labeled as griefers.
As I've said, it's the kind of system that is a paradise for the griefers, and a nightmare for everybody else. Everybody else includes a lot of PvP players. There should be a clear separation between PvE progression andPvP games to avoid these types of problems.
Jay-Bird
Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:22 pm
#33
The most distressing thing about forced PvP mastership is the fact that very few simple things work. It sounds like a perfect idea...make people brave the depths of a battlefield to EARN the title of Ace pilot.
The reasons why this wouldnt work is because
A. Greifers. People who just wana hurt other people. They are the doom of this concept
B. Innocent PvP'ers. These people just wanna kill the opposite faction. They shouldn't have to /tell__ hey are you PvPing?
C. 'Fighter' Pilot. These people just wanna get their mission done. They wanna PvP, but are outmatched
D. 'Explorer' Pilot. These people just wanna get a Multi-Player ship, ride around, shoot NPC's with friends, they are soemtime Anti-PvP'ers so they wo't even try to fight back.
This is teh biggest problem with MMOG's, great concepts are turned into equally great or greater failures. Its the human factor.
AODExarch
Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:39 pm
#34
Jay-Bird wrote:The most distressing thing about forced PvP mastership is the fact that very few simple things work. It sounds like a perfect idea...make people brave the depths of a battlefield to EARN the title of Ace pilot.The reasons why this wouldnt work is becauseA. Greifers. People who just wana hurt other people. They are the doom of this conceptB. Innocent PvP'ers. These people just wanna kill the opposite faction. They shouldn't have to /tell __ hey are you PvPing?C. 'Fighter' Pilot. These people just wanna get their mission done. They wanna PvP, but are outmatchedD. 'Explorer' Pilot. These people just wanna get a Multi-Player ship, ride around, shoot NPC's with friends, they are soemtime Anti-PvP'ers so they wo't even try to fight back.This is teh biggest problem with MMOG's, great concepts are turned into equally great or greater failures. Its the human factor.
Look at it this way...
Im sure those who want to be UBER L33T ACEZ OF TEH-SPACE will grind themselves as fast as possible to get to Master Pilot... thats a given
for those who complain about it being FORCED PVP, then you need to realize that the storyline of this game is based around PVP. And even if you do not want to be involved with it, i don't think challenging yourself to venture into the fray for THE MASTER TITLE is such a bad thing.
I mean they gotta make it hard, if it takes you two months to improve your ship and skills to be able to complete your mission to get Master Pilot, then the game challenged you, and it will feel alot better to win the title when you have accually had push yourself. And even if people find it hard to do it alone, and REALLY want that Master Box, that's what guildies are for, if 4 or 5 of you go up together, then it wont be such a difficult task fighting off the players so you can complete the mission.
Jay-Bird
Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:15 pm
#35
The problem is finding 'guildies'
Some people don't want to be in a guild
SOme ar ein a guild, but it sa bad, inactive one
Some want to get in a good guild, but are being kept out for some reason
The concept is great......but, as i said, the human factor causes inconsistancies within the concept
And, the devs said there would be ZERO forced PvP
There are good things,,,,'Pro's (as in positives)' to forced PvP. Yet with one Pro, there is a Con
"With every action, there is an equal and oppisite re-action" - A Philosipher from the Past (Isaac Newton if memory serves....)
SpaceCrazy
Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:59 pm
#36
AODExarch wrote:
for those who complain about it being FORCED PVP, then you need to realize that the storyline of this game is based around PVP.
No, the storyline of the game is based on the Galactic Civil War. PVP is certainly a part of that. But it is NOT all. GCW != PVP. PVE is also a part of it.
The devs have constantly said that there would be no forced PVP...that it would all be consensual. For some inexplicable reason, they've gone back on that for the mission to gain the master pilot box. That is simply unacceptable. Some don't want PVP of any kind. Some want to PVP, but when they choose to...not to master a profession.
And everyone should know by now, there WILL be people who are there for the sole purpose of griefing other players, preventing them from completing the mission. Having the master mission in a PVP zone is basically giving the griefers a legal way to do what they want....ruin the game for others.
For certain, not everyone in the PVP zone who attacks someone doing a mission is a griefer. Most will simply be looking for PVP combat. But they will still receive hate tells from those wanting to do the mission.
Take the master mission out of the PVP zone. At this point, I can only hope the devs will do this after the lower level missions are bug-free. That's the only reason I can think of why there hasn't even been a response to all the threads on this issue...because they are focusing on the missions leading up to master.
AODExarch
Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:00 am
#37
The Devs arn't forcing you to PVP, but if you want master pilot than you have to enter the wild areas to do you missions, which is somthing you do voluntarily, so the devs dont force you to do squat
Blu_Haze
Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:44 am
#38
/sigh
One of these days all of you "PVE" people will catch up to the rest of the world and this whole "PVE vs. PVP" tug of war won't even be an issue anymore. Let's face it, having environments where you are prevented from attacking other people by some magical and invisible barrier simply isn't realistic and is quickly becoming obsolete. As technology advances we get closer and closer to achieving a true law system in an MMORPG that actually works and punishes griefers while still giving people the freedom to do anything that they want.
To be honest, I'll never understand why some people are soadamantly against PVP in SWG. After all, you lose nothing at all when you die besides your pride.On the ground game the devs have made it so when you die you suffer no item decay or exp penalties in PVP, and in space all you have to do is repair your ship and you're on your way. As far as the actual mission goes, I agree that it should be altered so that if you die during the mission it doesn't automatically fail, preventing you from losing valuable time having to reset it. However with everything else in SWG it seems as though most of these "PVE" people are only afraid of getting their feelings hurt. Learn to /addignore and /report the smacktards that choose to verbally abuse people, move on, and enjoy fighting people who are actually honorable PVPers.
Also, stop pulling all these "facts" and statistics out of nowhere. All of these astromech stats that you're using are not only outdated but have nothing at all to do with JTL. The only thing that those numbers prove is that most of the people in the game are dissatisfied with the way the combat system currently works with the ground game. I can guarantee that those numbers will drastically change after the combat balance and GCW revamp when everything is balanced and fair again. Besides, it has nothing to do with JTL since JTL uses a completely different combat engine, Someone who might not go overt alot on the ground could very well spend most of their time in space fighting other players. It's a completely different battlefield and people will have a completely different opinion of it.
You might not believe me now but one day you'll see. There are more and more MMOG's coming out every day which are 100% PVP, not to mention the existing MMOG's that are starting to feature 100% PVP servers. To say that "majority rules" or "people don't like PVP" is ignorant and wrong, you're trying to use circumstantial evidence which doesn't even relate to the situation on hand to prove some flawed point. People said the same thing when modem to modem games started getting some public attention, and all the naysayers chimed in predicting that this whole "multiplayer" thing would never catch on. Look where we are now.
Message Edited by Blu_Haze on 10-26-2004 06:53 AM
tIme2DiE
Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:15 pm
#39
Slarus wrote:
I had to reread his post couple of times, but I think he is agreeing with that fact that PvP should not be required for mastering. If I read his statement correctly he is saying that 75% of the players are neutral and out vote those that are factioned and thus should get non-factioned content (non-pvp).
Oh, btw last time I looked as astrmetrics it was only around 10% factioned and under 2% overt.... yet they seem hell bent on doing 95% of the work for 5% of the population all the time.
You got it right, sorry if I confused folks I was being sarcastic
Here is the problem with all of these statistics:
They include ALL players, meaning that the game counts each individual character. So, if somone who has 10 characters but really only uses one then the other nine go to waste. This is why we get scewed statictics like 75% are neutral (which just simply isnt true). The most common faction is covert rebel followed by covert imperial. Therereal staistic isprobably 10% neutral with about 20% of players PvPers. and the remaining 70 percent covert.