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Thread: Voice Chat System with safeguards and cool uses (Jamming etc.)Optional for nonbroadband users
LLJK_Griz
Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:39 am
#27
TheDukeofPolo wrote:
Great idea but it Would cuase lag
HOLY CHRIST COULD YOU TRY READING AT LEAST THE FIRST PARAGRAPH OF THE POST BEFORE SPEWING WHATEVER IS FLOATING AROUND YOUR EMPTY SKULL
RogueCloudwalker
Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:45 pm
#28
Yep, we have to have voice chat or winning and surviving battles will be hard as heck without coordination.
RogueCloudwalker
Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:15 am
#29
Number-1-Commando wrote:
Also, u have think about what the devs (based on past history)will be throwing at us, easy enemies? I don't think so, more like uber enemies such as the Super Battle Droids amount of damage at us....... and considering what most of us saw at the Fan Fest..... the place is going to be swamming with ties, x-wings, and who knows what uber thing awaits us.... Remember what TH and another dev said..."Space is a dangeous place".....I think we need some way, anyway, to have a voice chat so we can organize quickly,and accuratelyto attack these hard enemies!
Message Edited by Number-1-Commando on 06-18-2004 02:23 PM
We need more support for this so we can hopefully get a Dev response! Number 1 is right! No one will have time to type in space and I can't connect to TeamSpeak hoping that guy over in the X-Wing just happens to hear me out of the blue. Once you are in combat you will be too busy trying to dodge that you won't be able to type.
Number-1-Commando
Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:24 pm
#30
THwrote:
Recently, there have been some programs being advertised in and out of game throughout the community. Some of these programs are cheater programs that violate the End User License Agreement, but there are also some that report to perform feats of magic such as reduce lag. We know of at least two of these programs to be Trojan Horses that are “keystroke loggers”. Keystroke loggers are programs that “spy” on your computers keyboards to steal information. These are malicious third party programs that might even lead to identity theft.
Just as a community reminder, please do not use or install 3rd party programs onto your computer that claim to enhance the game. 3rd party applications are a violation of the End User License Agreement and we have banned people for using programs that violate the EULA and will continue to do so.
We encourage you not to install anything on your computer that does not come from a trusted source. Please be very careful when choosing and installing programs onto your computer.
Kurt "Thunderheart" Stangl
Assistant Community Manager
As you just read.... The devs do not want you to use 3rd party programs (roger wilco,Teamspeak, or the like)kinda scary that two programs have "Trojans". Just another reason to have Intergrated voice chat. Devs don't want 3rd party, I would rather not use 3rd party, and I know a few people that don't want to use 3rd party.
Devs, could you please intergrate voicechatONLY in JTL, space ONLY? As you wrote, "please do not use or install 3rd party programs onto your computer that claim to enhance the game".Since it is in violation of the End User License Agreement, please read these proposal, and take these seriously... I don't wanna violate anything.
Obi-Zem-Kenobi
Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:42 pm
#31
You make some very good points #1. All the more reason for SOE to built voice chat into JTLS. "bump"
Obi-Z
PS: Oh yeah I started a thread on this a few days ago as well
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=lightspeed&message.id=17122
donsmi
Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:14 pm
#32
I disagree about voice chat taking a lot of bandwidth on the client end (it does not), but I still know an open voice chat system would never work and I'll tell you why.
I used Roger wilco on a 56k connection with 3 people connected to me years ago on Diablo II, and had no lag problems.
Unfortunatley, PTP would be the ONLY way it could work here.... which would be fine with me...
I mean... think about it.... Imagine a server that could manage voice from hundreds of thousands of different players... and then adjust the volume in realation to how far from the source you are... (this would be the logical way to make it work, we wouldnt want to hear EVERY player on the plant... you'd not understand one single word being said)
Anyways...A typical 56kbps connection translates to a maximum of 8KB/second.. (for those of you who dont know 8kb=1KB)
and the stream can be optimised to work on a 56k connection, so we know it has to be less than 8K per stream.multiply that 8KB times how ever many people are signed on at any given time.... That really does come out to a lot of bandwidth.. and that is just bandwidth in... then they have to send each stream out to every player that is close enough "to hear them". You'd have to have a pretty beefy server with LOADS of ram for that to work with an ubelievable connection.
Im not sure if anyone has built a server that could take care of that.
Not to mention that when you walked outside of coronet all of your bandwidth would be taken by people standing outside of the starport. If there was 30 people standing out there, that is something like 240KB of data being streamed to your machine... Same would go for around a space station in JTL.
I understand that this may not be exactally how it would be handled, and there are probably more efficient means of doing this.but no matter how you look at it, its a lot of data that has to be shuttled back and forth for voice chat.
The best bet would be a program similar to roger wilco or teamspeak but developed by SOE integrated into SWG where your ship(the client)could connect to a ship (the server) if they had radio techologies (voice chat enabled) on thier ship.The program could even have a backdoor that would allow slicers to get in if the had the proper decryption technologies.
I think the biggest problem with getting this done is SOE is so close minded about voice chat. They see the words voice chat and dont even read the post... The player might actually have a good idea for the logic behind how it could work and why it wouldnt put ANY strain on thier servers, but the devs see the words "voice chat" and they think "arrgghhh... They dont understand, that'll put too much strain on the servers".... and the post never even gets looked at..
P2P, for those of you that dont know.... would be making a direct connection between players pc's and the data streamed from player to player is done directly... and would never touch a SOE server. The only role the SWG server would play in this is to serve as a meeting ground for people to communicate the desire to voice chat with each other, and deliver the ip to the voice chat server (players computer)
In the back ground this is what is happening when you find a player in game you want to connect to...
1) you select an option to directly connect to a ship...
2) the SOE server sends your IP address to the other persons computer through the game
3) the other person accepts or declines.
4) if they accept then thier computer sends a request straight to your IP address to connect to the program. (bypassing the game)
5) your computer automatically accepts the connection (after all, you did initilize this whole process)
6) you are now connected directly through the internet (not SOE's server)
Because the client would be set up to automatically accept a connection when the IP is used bypassing SOE's server (the ip can only be obained by SOE's sever sending it to you through the game) this infrastructure could be minupulated by a slicer... all they would need is some tool that is capable of retrieving an IP from a ship (computer) and if they requested connection via IP then it would automatically be accepted.... (without the target of the slicer even being aware of foul play)
Whoa, thats giving me a headache... there's bound to be some wholes in this idea, but if it makes sense to ANYONE let me know
Message Edited by donsmi on 09-26-2004 06:33 PM
belm
Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:00 am
#33
I;ve been away a while good to see the thread still going although I did expect 100 more replies for this. donsmi is right p2p is the way to go with the commandsbeing controled by the server controlled by SOE and galaxieshow would this work ?easily and would take upless bandwidththan current chat. I'm going to ignore anyone saying anything like lag or 56k users both have been addressed - different server from the galaxy as is currently used and 56kers can turn it off if theywant ! now theserver controlscould look like thisI'll use the names rebel1 rebel2 imperial_slicerfor players and SOE for the SOE voice server left hand side of the :: is what happens in game right hand is behind the scenes
rebel1 requests to speak to rebel2 :: rebel1's comp sends message to SOE requesting to speak to rebel2 SOE sends request to rebel2
rebel2 accepts the request :: rebel2's comp tells SOE that they will speak to rebel1 SOE then sends the IP address for rebel2 to rebel1 and vice versa
rebels starts talking to rebel2 :: the computers streaming the voice back and forth directly without sending anything to SOE every minute or 30 secs or even 15 secs) a current chat message is sent to SOE from each user with who they're speaking 2
imperial_slicer wants to listen to chat he requests a scan of the local frequences :: imperial_slicers comp requests to scan local freqiences so SOE receives this and looks at whos still chatting within his area SOE decides he can scan them then sends a request to each user within each chat to send for the next 10 seconds also to imperial_slicer's IP
imperial_slicer sits and listens to 10 second snippits of each chat in his area as his scanner goes through each frequency and hears something interesting between rebel1 and 2 (he does not know who each user name is just X1 and X2 or something like that) :: imperial_slicer requests to listen to rebel1 and rebel2's chats for longer so SOE does the math and decides his luck and skills are in so sends a message to rebel1 and rebel2 telling them to stream to imperial_slicer as well
imperial_slicer sits and listens to rebel1 and rebel2 plan to attack a nearby convoy :: SOE is receiving conformation that rebel1 and rebel2 are streaming to each other and to imperial_slicer
after 5 mins imperial_slicers connection drops and he can't hear rebel1 and rebel2 :: SOE has decided that imperial_slicer has lost the signal so has told rebel1 and rebel2 to stop streaming to imperial_slicer
imperial_slicer decides to try again so requests to slice frequencyxx.5 and fails :: SOE decides he can't listen in for x amount of time and does not tell rebel1 and rebel2 to stream to imperial_slicer
imperial_slicer tries again and gets connected :: SOE decides imperial_slicer can listen again so sends the message to rebel1 and rebel2 saying to stream to imperial_slicer once more
rebel1 and rebel2 are plotting away unaware that imperial_slicer is listening in :: rebel1 and rebel2 are streaming to each other and imperial_slicer while sending conformation messages to SOE that they still are
imperial_slicer decides he's had enough of them both and uses a tracer to locate each ship after a few seconds each ship is targeted :: imperial_slicer sends request for tracking to SOE who decides and sendsthe targets back to imperial_slicer
****imperial_slicer sends a message to his group (voice or typing or what ever I'm not going to go into the commands for this one as they'd be the same as above) telling them to attack the targets and he'd jam them****
imperial_slicer turns on his jamming device for a full range jam:: imperial_slicer tells SOE that he's jamming so SOE checks each conversation in the range of the jammer and checks each players anti-jamming devices rebel1 and rebel2 don't have any so SOE tells rebel1 and rebel2 to stop streaming to each other and anyone else and to start playing a static .wav while within range of imperial_slicer while recording on SOE that rebel1 and rebel2 cannot accept or request voice comms
imperial_slicers friends attack rebel1 and rebel2 who can't talk to each other or request back up but they do fly outwith the range (in opposite directions from imperial_slicer) :: rebel1 tells SOE that he's out of range and SOE confirms this and records that rebel1 can make and recieve voice comms, rebel2 however has received damage to his comms unit and can only send docking requests or maydays (different systems from the comms unit) and records that rebel2 cannot request or accept voice comms
imperial_slicer and friends go back to looking for rebels to attack, meanwhile covert rebel_slicer was within jamming range and noticed the jam requested a trace and sent a target back to his wingmen who all fly x-wings and kick the crap outta imperial_slicer
as you can see the requests to and from SOE are small and limited but still control what can and cannot be done by clients although the client takes the majority of the bandwidth usage if rebel1 and 2 had decided to end the convo they'd end it and tell SOE - SOE remains in control of the entire weho can talk to whom and who can listen to whom although this does generally limit how many people can speak to each other the slicer could in theory stream out to other players what he's receiving from rebel1 and 2 who wouldn't really notice anything as there is only 1 extra stream leaving them and noextras coming in. Voice comms can work with a few players any more the system should beable to be setup so that it works more like a radio with request to talks stopping others from talking ie push to talk and a cascade so each player only has 1 in and 2 out within the group - u could have hundreds of users this way all using the same bandwidth but I'd need a diagram (or3 - think family trees upside down mother and father give rise to kid another half) to show this working and there would be lag but it'd only be noticable if u had 2 people physically side by side but far apart from one another in the chain so it takes time for the message to filter down to the next user in the chain.
hope that makes sense
Message Edited by belm on 10-06-2004 08:06 PM
fatgato
Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:42 am
#34
Personally I wouldnt want Voice chat in the game because I dont think SOE could do it right 
. Go to the offical TEAMSPEAK website...... then you can download it from there and not worry about key loggers etc.... I been using TS for years and even have a T1 that i set up TS on.
. Go to the offical TEAMSPEAK website...... then you can download it from there and not worry about key loggers etc.... I been using TS for years and even have a T1 that i set up TS on.
heaysyl
Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:50 am
#35
i love the idea of voice chat .. BUT .. we would still lose the 56k players fairly soonish even if they could turn it off
my reason u ask?
easy we would become a fragmented comunity we're dead enought thx to jtl / non-jtl split can u imagine what would happen if we became (jtl/non jtl voice enables) with (jtl / non-jtl voice disabled) it would take us from one barley held together comunity to 2 spilt comunties who never talk to each other. and if we dont talk to each other there isnt a comunity anymore there a single player game with mini chats to other players. if there isnt a comunity theres no reason to play more than 2/3 months so bye bye swg 
well thats just my personal view
hope u can all work out what i mean through all my bad grammer and nearlly as bad spelling
furrybegger
Durgan_Kael
Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:02 pm
#36
I don't see something like this being added either. I think it should've been a part of SWG from the beginning, myself. Using the right codecs and netcode, it could've been done, but there you are.
At least most people use either Teamspeak or Ventrilo. Few have been the times I've run into fellow Imp pilots in Deep Space and NOT been able to get in voice chat with them.
DreanGrott
Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:04 pm
#37
/sign
This would be really cool but i think they need to get more space battles so this idea can use it's fullpotential.
DivaShowtime
Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:42 pm
#38
you have not realy read TH's comment correct, 3rd party programs are considered as programs that "enhance the game", that means that that programs do things in the game client like "doing crafting for you or things like that". that is not allowed, but if you use a program like Skype for a conference call beside the game there is no problem, because that software does not enhance or modify the game in any form, it is just running beside the game.
Number-1-Commando wrote:
THwrote:
...
Just as a community reminder, please do not use or install 3rd party programs onto your computer that claim to enhance the game. 3rd party applications are a violation of the End User License Agreement and we have banned people for using programs that violate the EULA and will continue to do so.
As you just read.... The devs do not want you to use 3rd party programs (roger wilco,Teamspeak, or the like)kinda scary that two programs have "Trojans". Just another reason to have Intergrated voice chat. Devs don't want 3rd party, I would rather not use 3rd party, and I know a few people that don't want to use 3rd party.
...
santoro
Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:52 pm
#39
Well, voice chat seems to be the things these days. Maybe one could look at how it's implemented on Counterstrike, or xBox live -- granted that SWG servers support more than the most ever seen on either type of these servers (probably about 64). There may be a way to implement a low-lag solution. I -know- that at least Counterstrike doesn't have a pure lossless sample of the audio, which would obviously be a huge cause of lag. However, on the fly encoding would cause more client-side lag, but I'm no voice expert. Just a suggestion. Like others have said, it has been implemented elsewhere, and it'd be wonderful if it were possible to work here.