Jump To Lightspeed Archive
Thread: EdiT
The answer really is rather simple.
First off let me set up the basic situation here. Looking over the coming publishes we see that the Jedi, the combat system, and the GCW are all on the block to get revamped and changed. This is a wonderful fact. Why? Because that is all you need to make the game work for almost everyone with every opinion on this subject.
Now I know you are all saying how?
Well one thing is that most of us are focusing on the Jedi themselves and the system that governs their tefs, powers, and paths. The real answer really lies at a higher level within the game. Lets further define this by looking at some basic facts or at least premises that we can if not agree at least realize. In some ways this represents some of the theoretical limitations the devs most likely work within.
1.) No player should be barred intentionally from Jedi.
2.) There were not many (to say the least) Jedi in this time period.
3.) We do not want this to become Jedi Wars.
So how since these points tend to be at odds with one another how do you allow all three to exist within the game?
Amazingly enough the answer is one of the most basic answers possible...you don't...well you kinda don't that is.
The devs need to create the game within the game and here is how I think they can do it.
First you create three new factions. You can call them LightSide, DarkSide, and Bounty Hunter....catchy huh!
So let me explain...the lightside and the darkside are vying for power. Right now even the Rebel Alliance would be a little wigged out by the whole Jedi thing (with the exception of the high command like Leia or Mon Mothma. Remember the Jedi are discredited and blamed with the fall of the Republic). That doesnt mean that the Jedi Remanant still wouldnt want the republic to win and that doesnt mean that dark users dont want the goody tooshoe light guys dead though. This is a war in the shadows...light versus dark...good vs. evil. The evil guys and gals would be out for selfish power and need to extinguish the light to gain it...the lightside would be struggling to survive so that it once again could be called on to protect the republic when the time was right.
The Light and Dark are full Overt to each other all the time (but to no one else). The quickest way to gain power is by killing one of your opposite number. Dark Jedi could also kill each other to gain smaller porions of power (exp). You keep a ranking on the war and whoever is leading gets certain bonuses as the faction. The diffrence is if the Lightside is in the lead all lightside Jedi get the bonuses and if the darkside are in power only upper 50% get the bonuses.
Light Jedi should have it harder, harder choices in quests, less quest opportunities (for example if a Light Jedi does the rebel quest on the Corvette he/she should get xp but a dark Jedi could get xp for both the Imperial and Hutt missions). Quests for Light Jedi should be more dangerous with regards to exposure. Visibility itself should be more harsh for Light Jedi as well.
If a light or dark Jedi use a force power or their lightsaber in public all surrounding NPCs applicable (Corsec, Imperial, etc etc) should all aggro on the Force Users and all surrounding players should get a TEF to both (regardless of affiliation or overt/covert status). Jedi characters should be forced to fight in private.
Skills should be learned from the appropriate Holocrons that are found (not looted) per leveling quests or something of the like (see FFXI for more details).
Leveling in general should come from PVP and PVE but mostly quests.
ANd last but not least Bounty Hunters which might as well be called the Hired by Vader and Palps faction. They should hunt and track down Jedi like it was going out of style. Light Side should be worth more xp and darkside worth more money (or vice versa I suppose). Achieving ranks in the Force as a Jedi in and of itself should add visibility. Bounty Hunters need to be fixed though not outside the professions concept or the rest of the combat professions though they should have focused skills and tools to fight Jedi (Mando armour with Cortosis anyone).
Lightsabers should be given AR3 and their own damage class.
In the end you provide BH's with and endgame and most importantly (if you have not figured it out yet) you have just removed Jedi from the mainstream game. Jedi will have their own conflict and their own issues. The GCW wil not be affected by them (good news for a lot of people and for the continuity as a whole).
Then you add in the rest of the proposed Revamp (the parts not mentioned in this post and delete the inner faction ranking system for voting on the lightside) and you have two force using groups, one that works together but has to work harder to achieve the goal of being the most powerful on the server and another group that has an easier time advancing but a brutal environment where only the most powerful are rewarded (the upper 50%) from the war. And of course the BHs that hunt everyone.
Now the only question is if and how you might allow the Jedi a small role directly in the GCW. It would have to be hugely biased against the Jedi formally fighting in the GCW (that is what the second character is for). No rank or faction points, no perks, and possibly no covert status. Possible yes but not desireable.
Bounty Hunters should be able to join the rebels or the Imperials but be restricted in their hunting of light jedi if they are rebel BHs (High command still understood Jedi...the common soldier would not). Again pushing BH's intentionally (somewhat) to the Imperial and BH factions directly.
And yes Wookie need Jedi Robes too!
With this solution most of the questions and concerns melt away. Jedi would be rewarded for hiding and would take their own conflict (can you say custom content) away from the mass public. You would see few if any Jedi in the GCW (the penalties should be really rough, more so for the Imperials) and we all would have second characters to participate in the GCW. No PLAYER would be barred artificially from any content, just maybe one of the two characters would be.
Because you are "removing" Jedi from the mainstream game you can tend to issues on both sides of the fence in these ongoing discussions we have on these forums.
BTW I am a Light Jedi in game and staying that way forever.
And yes I think the introduction of a Smuggling/Hutt faction within the SE would compete the circle of factions seen in most of the movies and books (EU).
THoughts?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts?
Reile29 wrote:
I posted this elsewhere. I will repost it here.
Let's examine the Master Enhancers Force Run 3 vs the Master Defenders Avoid Incap.
Avoid Incap:
700 force to activate
30 second duration to the power
In 30 seconds a FRS Knight caneasily regenerate200 force points. So if they spam nothing but Avoid Incap to escape a situation they can at most do it for 7 minutes before their force bar is completely drained. This assumes they have around 7000 force. So at the end of those 7 minutes they have either found a safe area/alluded theirhunter or they are dead.
Force Run 3:
600 force to activate
90 secondduration to the power
Once again in 30 second a FRS Knight can easily regen 200 force points. So in the90secondsthat the knight has FR3 active he will regen600 force. Assuming he does nothing but FR3 to escape a situation he will NEVER run out of force. He can literally FR3 forever. Because of lag issues and Thak he will never be knockdowned and therefore will always get away.
This is the problem with FR3. As many people have stated it makes the knight virtually immune to death. Knowing this said knight is willing to stand in a starport killing overts as they zone. Why not...if someone mounts an offensive strike against that knight he runs off and never gets caught. If a master defender did the same he may get away with avoid incap but at least there is a chance he will die at the end of those 7 minutes.
To me the solution is simple. Put FR3 more in line with the ability the master defender gets since they are both master powers. Keep the 600 force cost but reducethe duration to30 seconds. Now the master enhancer actually loses 400 force each time theyFR3(600 cost - 200 regen in 30 seconds). So he can run about 8.5 minutes before he has to find a safe area/allude his hunter or he too dies.
- Suggestion by someone here... Take a padawan under your belt earn points that way.
- Do quest and not just kill kill kill.
- Maybe rewards for good deeds. Take a noob under your belt help out people in the community and earn points. I had a noob with me on dath hunting. I gave her 50k and took her with me to all my missions. She earned a part of the payout and was able to harvest all the hides.
- Fix BH tef to end when they die or jedi dies. With the decrease in requirements for BH and the 3000 BH template only allow other BH to use tef to attack a jedi mark.With the 3000 template they could have a large variety of profession within the group. This will remove the Jedi gank squad and only have BH's with your mission hunting you down. There can be a group but they must all have your mission.
- Only let Overts attack Overts or if a group member wants to group attack someone have it change them to Group Overt status instead of the 5min tef wars. If this is used make it so only recruiter declared overts can shut down terminal on bases. Group overts would have to talk to recruiter to officially declare.
- You can make Overt Jedi only attackable by opposite faction Overt jedi. Increase the FRS bonus points. This with an alternative way to earn rank points would cut out the overt kill squads.
- Covert tef attackers should not give negative points. (I have never liked the group tef)
5. Exp Loss
- Only allow people to lose xp every 30 min. This would prevent griefers from destroying a players jedi character.
- The old system allowed xp to decay off. Depending on level of jedi negative xp should decay off weekly. This way someone in the hole for a ton of xp are not forced into quiting. Millions of negative xp is a huge downer and will most likely lead to canceled accounts
6. Force Run
- There is nothing wrong with this skill. The only thing that I would semi support on nerfing this skill is a delay timer. So if you force run 3 you must wait 30 sec or something to force run 3 again. And the faster you run the more time delay from reuse. So if you Force run 1 you may have to wait 10 seconds. Force run 2 20 seconds. Force run 3 30 seconds. It would allow you to escape but not run the entire planet non stop. It would have to be a low time limit that would allow you to pull a bike out or force run again. If someone had a swoop out they would prob catch you before you can Force run again.
- Force run should not suck your force away.
Well thats a few suggestions since you twisted my arm. I think there needs to be more jedi in rank before we go changing skills. Lets see what happens first. If the devs want to hack and slash their trees up there isnt much we can do other than quit.
I agree Cloud, I'm just telling you what I hear...and that is a lot of complaining from the GCW community
Cloudgatherer wrote:
Discussion is a two way communication. The time for this was before the patch was pushed to TC2, or even before the patch was released to live. Where was the discussion then?
ArjunThakur wrote:
You don't seem to understand this is all purely discussion. If you can't handle discussing this stuff then don't participate. I've said before nothing is being submitted without our communities approval.
I've considered writing another post detailing how bad this patch actually is, but what's the point? Those who are Jedi, know how bad it is, and the developers don't seem to have any interest in working *with* the players. When I start seeing something like what GreenMarine is doing, I'll be more constructive since I get a sense he is making a good effort to listen to players, whoever is doing the Jedi stuff is kicking us to the side of the road.
As long as the FRS is 'player killing XP', then we will have people angry at Jedi like we do now. Today it's FR3, later it may be our damage output or some other reason why they don't like Jedi. Nerfing FR3 will only bring bigger gank squads. This is the fundamental system that was designed, implemented, tested, and pushed to live against many of our objections.
The devs made their bed, now they get to lie in it.
Thodious wrote:
I can say is I'm glad I don't have Arjun's job.
Most of you gents don't get the fact that Arjun wants feedback AND constructive alternatives.
Simply disagreeing with him isn't as important as coming up with viable solutions.
Changes are coming. Help him out, because I willing to bet that if you leave the solutions to the devs, you really won't like the result.
Thodius
and that is a lot of complaining from the GCW community
Cloudgatherer wrote:
Discussion is a two way communication. The time for this was before the patch was pushed to TC2, or even before the patch was released to live. Where was the discussion then?
ArjunThakur wrote:
You don't seem to understand this is all purely discussion. If you can't handle discussing this stuff then don't participate. I've said before nothing is being submitted without our communities approval.
I've considered writing another post detailing how bad this patch actually is, but what's the point? Those who are Jedi, know how bad it is, and the developers don't seem to have any interest in working *with* the players. When I start seeing something like what GreenMarine is doing, I'll be more constructive since I get a sense he is making a good effort to listen to players, whoever is doing the Jedi stuff is kicking us to the side of the road.
As long as the FRS is 'player killing XP', then we will have people angry at Jedi like we do now. Today it's FR3, later it may be our damage output or some other reason why they don't like Jedi. Nerfing FR3 will only bring bigger gank squads. This is the fundamental system that was designed, implemented, tested, and pushed to live against many of our objections.
The devs made their bed, now they get to lie in it.
YES - EXACLTLY HOW I FEEL. You and the devs have NO high ground here arjun. Our feedback, discussions, and ideas WERE IGNORED AND STILL ARE. THE DEVS DID **edit** they wanted to do. They made this mess. Further NERFS to our professions after a REVAMP THAT WAS ONE BIG @$#%-ing nerf is just plain sadistic.
There are ideas here on how to fix it. DESTROY the FRS system and make advancement voting/senoirity for light and dueling/senority for Dark.
You want a reason why frun3 doesnt need a counter - OK how about this - WE ARE PERMAOVERT, AND WE HAVE NO ARMOUR, and unlike Overt mundanes, WE HAVE SOMETHING TO LOSE in the form of FRS points. Mundanes can regrind faction in seconds via PvE. SO lets review - nothing to lose for mundanes, so killing a jedi knight should be DIFFICULT, since they have FRS points to lose. If we cant escape and evade we are dead. WE cant tank and cm/melee's/uber DoT weapons (mindfire)decimate us. Good enough? If not spend more time on LIVE, seriously.
Message Edited by KyleKnox on 07-09-2004 08:52 PM