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VegitoSS wrote:

I'm starting to lose faith in our correspondent. These changes they forced on us passed through with flying colors yet they are all messed up now. Its been a few weeks and now everyone is screaming nerfs.

Force run has been in the game since jedi went live. Now that jedi are not forced to hide all the time and there are more maxed out jedi everyone is screaming nerf. This ability was available since last fall 2003. Now all the sudden we must change it because people are upset they cannot kill a jedi who runs away. Our correspondent is altering his post every 15mins to nerf it. I think the jedi clearly say NO to the nerf. Quit making post after post trying to change their minds.

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You don't seem to understand this is all purely discussion. If you can't handle discussing this stuff then don't participate. I've said before nothing is being submitted without our communities approval.

If I don't bring up discussions on these changes then I am just leaving us two sheets to the wind, this way people can work out arguments AGAINST such suggestions which I then have in my arsenal to defend our class.

And you did'nt offer any critical feedback Veggeto, you just said "why should anyone have the ability to cancel force run" that is not feedback that is just an emotional reply. Why shouldn't there be a counter to force run? Because there just shouldn't?

Message Edited by Chianti on 07-09-2004 10:08 PM

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ArjunThakur wrote:

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VegitoSS wrote:

I'm starting to lose faith in our correspondent. These changes they forced on us passed through with flying colors yet they are all messed up now. Its been a few weeks and now everyone is screaming nerfs.

Force run has been in the game since jedi went live. Now that jedi are not forced to hide all the time and there are more maxed out jedi everyone is screaming nerf. This ability was available since last fall 2003. Now all the sudden we must change it because people are upset they cannot kill a jedi who runs away. Our correspondent is altering his post every 15mins to nerf it. I think the jedi clearly say NO to the nerf. Quit making post after post trying to change their minds.

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You don't seem to understand this is all purely discussion. If you can't handle discussing this stuff then don't participate. I've said before nothing is being submitted without our communities approval.

If I don't bring up discussions on these changes then I am just leaving us two sheets to the wind, this way people can work out arguments AGAINST such suggestions which I then have in my arsenal to defend our class.

And you did'nt offer any critical feedback Veggeto, you just said "why should anyone have the ability to cancel force run" that is not feedback that is just an emotional reply. Why shouldn't there be a counter to force run? Because there just shouldn't?

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Well this is ver 1.7 now. After people have been responding since your first post it seems clear the majority dont want force run changed. I have nothing to go against because I dont feel they should be changed. You know all the reasons to use Force run I dont have to list them for you. And having a person Force choke force choke force choke now everyone cant force run is way unbalanced. What next? A power that will freeze a player in their tracks for 10 seconds so people who have master saber master power healing 4004 can walk up to them and kill them? If these people didnt take enhance its just too bad. Master enhance cannot force lighting so should we have a skill that cancels lightning? While lighting doesnt do much to normal players its deadly vs jedi. I dueled a rank 8 knight on TC2 and he lighning me for 2500 damage. Let the game play out awhile Jesus. Let the ranks fill up and see how it's coming. The other suggestions I agreed on would help out the FRS grind. Making the penalty greater and nerfing FR is not needed. If each enclave on a server is full of jedi there wont be FR issues. Reason being is some of the jedi will have it and be able to give chase to people and catch them. This whole arguement is a big waste of time about a skill that has been in the game since jedi went live. I use FR2 now to escape during grinding and your proposal will hurt me in my grind. Its bad enough I have to use a 1st gen saber so I keep force to grind. Now you want to suck the force out from under me to use a skill. Just fix the current bugs like BH tef and those FRS areas. Leave FR alone. See how this plays out once more knights make the FRS.

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ArjunThakur wrote:
I am exploring/proposing these suggestions because these issues are going to get addressed one way or the other. We can be proactive and head them off or just sit and be spoon fed.

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Where have you been? We raised LOTS of issues during the testing of this patch. The devs don't listen to you or anyone else. This is the system they designed, and the fault lies squarely with them.

Seriously, I, and many others, 'called it'. A bunch of us can say 'I told you so'. I'm just sick of this crap the devs 'feed' us. There has been ZERO effort to work with the community on the Jedi Revamp, and now that they &^%$ed it up, we now have to compromise?

I'm sorry, that doesn't fly. The premise of the FRS is 'thou shalt gank overts' (grinding FRS XP). Gank squads are going to be here as long as people PvP, changing the forceruns does not address this problem, changing it will not solve your problems.

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VegitoSS wrote:

Using Force choke to cancel run is stupid. Why should people have an automatic stop jedi button? You can force choke every 5 seconds. All you need is one master power jedi in your group and you can halt everyone in their tracks. I am sorry but thats Bull$hit!. People use 15million xp just to get a novice jedi guardian skill now its going to be canceled by force choke and have a force draining timer on it. These suggestions are horrible.

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VegitoSS wrote:

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ArjunThakur wrote:

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VegitoSS wrote:

I'm starting to lose faith in our correspondent. These changes they forced on us passed through with flying colors yet they are all messed up now. Its been a few weeks and now everyone is screaming nerfs.

Force run has been in the game since jedi went live. Now that jedi are not forced to hide all the time and there are more maxed out jedi everyone is screaming nerf. This ability was available since last fall 2003. Now all the sudden we must change it because people are upset they cannot kill a jedi who runs away. Our correspondent is altering his post every 15mins to nerf it. I think the jedi clearly say NO to the nerf. Quit making post after post trying to change their minds.

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You don't seem to understand this is all purely discussion. If you can't handle discussing this stuff then don't participate. I've said before nothing is being submitted without our communities approval.

If I don't bring up discussions on these changes then I am just leaving us two sheets to the wind, this way people can work out arguments AGAINST such suggestions which I then have in my arsenal to defend our class.

And you did'nt offer any critical feedback Veggeto, you just said "why should anyone have the ability to cancel force run" that is not feedback that is just an emotional reply. Why shouldn't there be a counter to force run? Because there just shouldn't?

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Well this is ver 1.7 now. After people have been responding since your first post it seems clear the majority dont want force run changed. I have nothing to go against because I dont feel they should be changed. You know all the reasons to use Force run I dont have to list them for you. And having a person Force choke force choke force choke now everyone cant force run is way unbalanced. What next? A power that will freeze a player in their tracks for 10 seconds so people who have master saber master power healing 4004 can walk up to them and kill them? If these people didnt take enhance its just too bad. Master enhance cannot force lighting so should we have a skill that cancels lightning? While lighting doesnt do much to normal players its deadly vs jedi. I dueled a rank 8 knight on TC2 and he lighning me for 2500 damage. Let the game play out awhile Jesus. Let the ranks fill up and see how it's coming. The other suggestions I agreed on would help out the FRS grind. Making the penalty greater and nerfing FR is not needed. If each enclave on a server is full of jedi there wont be FR issues. Reason being is some of the jedi will have it and be able to give chase to people and catch them. This whole arguement is a big waste of time about a skill that has been in the game since jedi went live. I use FR2 now to escape during grinding and your proposal will hurt me in my grind. Its bad enough I have to use a 1st gen saber so I keep force to grind. Now you want to suck the force out from under me to use a skill. Just fix the current bugs like BH tef and those FRS areas. Leave FR alone. See how this plays out once more knights make the FRS.

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You speak to Arjun as though he is a dev. He is not.

It is not up to him to "just let the game play out a while". He doesn't get to decide that, the devs do. If they are making noises that they are going to do something about this, then it's up to Arjun to get US talking about it so that hopefully we'll have a voice which the devs will hear before they just do whatever they are going to do.

But if the devs are going to do something, they're going to do it whether we talk about it or not. And it doesn't matter if "the majority" want it or not. It's not a democracy. If the devs want it, then they'll get it.



So, it looks like they are going to take action on the subjects of force run and FRS xp. Do you have anything actually -useful- to say on the subject? Or is "just leave it alone" your final contribution?

2. FRS Jedi killing overts is also a big problem and very high on the complain list against Jedi. So again, either we work with the rest of the community here and help balance this or we can just sit back and cross our fingers..... Creating Jedi sub-factions is something being throw around in the correspondent forum which would allow Light and Dark Jedi to always fight each other and is still being explored.

You have to consider the complexity issues if we were to ask for a private dueling system. There are a plethora of exploits that come to mind immediately. Think simple and easy to implement.

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I don't really know how to solve this. I'd like to see Jedi have more options to be in "hiding" and sub-faction could work. If Jedi stay in the GCW then the GCW fixes/combat balance needs to give good reason for a whole lot of more overt players. If there was more war... then we could be participating in it and not camping star ports.

As a short term fix I say turn off the overt status. Also, either turn off the FRS or make it voting in the light-side and dueling in the dark-side. At least until the GCW/CB.

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I also agree having feedback work against lightning/choke is just over the top.....however how do we address that without just a blatant nerf request?

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You know... I joke about those making decisions having not seen the movies... but this takes the cake. With all due respect to the dark side... My saber should absorb lightning! And how about Yoda vs Dooku? Jedi combat has virtually alway come down to saber vs saber in the movies (yeah, yeah, just wait for Ep3... those who don't believe).

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5. Change Force Run 3 to cost less force to activate, but be a Force over time based skill....i.e. it uses5-10 force per second...which is not crippling but also would prevent a Jedi with 0 force pool from running indefinately. Note, this is only a change to Force Run3

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It is rather clear from the movies (damn I just want the game to be as much like the movies as possible) that force run is a great escape technique. I don't care if I ever kill another Jedi if they are smart/quick enough to use this wisely. That's what it's for. What I don't want to see is "hit and run" tactics using FR. To prevent hit and runs (always using FR to hit and get out of range, hit and get out of range... over and over) I think a nerf to saber/power accuracy while FR is active is a better solution. If a fighter uses terain and skills they can defeat a FR Jedi who dones't simply "hit and run".

I hope some of my complaints/ideas help... I'm losing faith in this FUBAR game. I'd like to see some RP and Star Wars brought into it, I just don't know how much longer I'll wait to see if it does...

-FRS Jedi killing overts is also a big problem and very high on the complain list against Jedi. So again, either we work with the rest of the community here and help balance this or we can just sit back and cross our fingers..... Creating Jedi sub-factions is something being throw around in the correspondent forum which would allow Light and Dark Jedi to always fight each other and is still being explored.

An excellent concept.One idea is possiblyallowing an Overt/Covert status within the Sub-faction, a Jedi not yet in the FRScould choose to be covert, and be alot safer from abuse by ranked Jedi, while if a Ranked Jedi is covert, it would allow unmolested interaction if they choose (but in all cases,as per regular overt/covert's, they can blow their cover and gain a TEF, be forced overt, etc).Attacking another FRS Jedi would force the player Overt.

The Jedi TEF could be applied to all within the opposing Jedifaction. 'Creating a disturbance in the Force' so to speak.

Also, FRS Xp should be scaled to the power level of the Jedi killed, with a meager amount gained for killing a low level non-FRS Jedi.

You have to consider the complexity issues if we were to ask for a private dueling system. There are a plethora of exploits that come to mind immediately. Think simple and easy to implement.

Understandable. But if you mention the exploits should this become a possibility,the communitycould probably come to someconclusion as to how to stop them.

-Forcerun3 has to have some counter, and considering Dark Jedi need to take at least part of the Force Power tree to make good use of their force mods in the ranking system, having Choke cancel or prevent Force run simply makes sense. There very well could be a better suggestion for how to counter forcerun3, but be realistic about this, having forcerun3 should not mean you can get away from any fight, anywhere, anytime. That's not balanced. (And for the record my template is Master Saber/Enhance 4004 healing FOTM )

I also agree having feedback work against lightning/choke is just over the top.....however how do we address that without just a blatant nerf request?

Feedback against lightning still sounds right, but not choke, what exactly has been the problem with feedback/choke/lightning, this is a new one to me.

So propose something different for number 6 if you want, but don't just disagree. I am exploring/proposing these suggestions because these issues are going to get addressed one way or the other. We can be proactive and head them off or just sit and be spoon fed.

-Increase the Jedi vs. Jedi FRS XP by a factor of 5 making Jedi vs. Jedi very desirable

This will most likely increase the pace at which Jedi fill the ranks, but will give focus to Jedi vs. Jedi fighting and allow the challenge systems to act as the stopgaps like they should be....not just a pure lack of FRS XP.

Good plan, but make the base Xp valuein linewiththe power level of the Jedi killed, or they will switch from regular overts to low level Jedi.

- Remove FRS XP for normal overts

Possibly, or make normal overts theNunas of the FRS Xp tree, so little Xp it wouldnt be worth the risk.

-Increase the penalty for dying to an Overt by a factor of 3

This will encourage players hunting Jedi to go Overt, and discourage casual "griefing" of starports and other high profile areas by Jedi

Good idea, and if visibility generated is increasedby a multiple of how many Players are withing a certain close radius (128m?) They could be on the bounty boards within seconds. But this assumes that Visability is generated in a way that could allow this.

- Remove the FRS XP penalty vs. Coverts

This will discourage players from abusing the group TEF bug and encourage more Overt play

This will also fix the bug where Coverts with a TEF can grant Jedi FRS XP

This could work too.

5. Change Force Run 3 to cost less force to activate, but be a Force over time based skill....i.e. it uses5-10 force per second...which is not crippling but also would prevent a Jedi with 0 force pool from running indefinately. Note, this is only a change to Force Run3

Why not do this to all the Forceruns and add a /stopforcerun or simular command sothe force poolcostcould be regulated by the player.

6. Make Force Choke cancel Force Run

This would prevent Jedi from fleeing any battle at anytime and make the Force Power tree more desirable (yes I know it needs a lot more help than this)

I think changing all the force runs to force over time could solve this, and drain force could do a great deal towards stopping it. If anything Force Choke would make sense as it could break the 'concentration' of the runner so to speak, and no bulk amount of force pool would be lost by the runner, just what was spent before the choke. Force Push could also have a minor chance of doing the same i.e. (25% at 1, 50% at 2) with Choke being the 75% chance since it can be called on repeatedly.

Message Edited by JoahSaett on 07-09-2004 07:40 PM

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ArjunThakur wrote:

You don't seem to understand this is all purely discussion. If you can't handle discussing this stuff then don't participate. I've said before nothing is being submitted without our communities approval.

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Discussion is a two way communication. The time for this was before the patch was pushed to TC2, or even before the patch was released to live. Where was the discussion then?

I've considered writing another post detailing how bad this patch actually is, but what's the point? Those who are Jedi, know how bad it is, and the developers don't seem to have any interest in working *with* the players. When I start seeing something like what GreenMarine is doing, I'll be more constructive since I get a sense he is making a good effort to listen to players, whoever is doing the Jedi stuff is kicking us to the side of the road.

As long as the FRS is 'player killing XP', then we will have people angry at Jedi like we do now. Today it's FR3, later it may be our damage output or some other reason why they don't like Jedi. Nerfing FR3 will only bring bigger gank squads. This is the fundamental system that was designed, implemented, tested, and pushed to live against many of our objections.

The devs made their bed, now they get to lie in it.