CUEmu - Thread Posts

Optathlete

Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:37 am

Please TH, do not do this. It is an overreaction to the problem. Not only that, what of the neutral pilots who cannot declare at stations? Are they forced to wait for Ace to do any sort of PvP? That hardly seems fair to them. Please consider this alternate solution.

When I first heard about the changes to Kessel due to enter the game next Tuesday, I was pretty upset, so I held off on posting my thoughts to ensure I would make a somewhat coherent, constructive post, rather than simply end up ranting about how the devs have begun to ruin JTL.

The simple fact is, turning Kessel into a PvE zone is a serious mistake. One of the key factors in any MMORPG is risk vs. reward. Kessel contains the highest-level NPC ships with the best loot, but to an average-skill or higher pilot, there's very little risk involved. The NPC pilots do not pose any serious threat to the player - the only real risk is the Corvette fleet and other players. Removing other players from the equation will be a serious shift in the balance of power. Suddenly there's a great deal of reward for a trivial amount of risk.

Due to the way AI in space combat games work, there's very little the devs can do to make Kessel more challenging from an NPC perspective. In any game,players will always find a way to beat the - this fact is even morein a twitch-based game then in a pseudo-turn-based enviornment such as ground combat. Short of having the AI missile-spam other players, or overwhelming players with sheer numbers,Kessel cannot become much more risky from an NPC perspective.

Enter the enemy player. The true risk-element in Kessel. They provide a challenge that no computer AI will ever match. While it is very true that the current system leaves much to be desired (1-2 hit kill PvP and spawn camping come immediately to mind), the concept of an open-PvP arena with high-reward potential is a great one. To get the best possible components for your ship should require an actual risk. I'm not saying they should be significantly better than loot you would find elsewhere, but the very-top-of-the-line items should be in open-PvP areas only, as it is now. After all, the only players who really need the very-best equipment will be the PvPers - the AI poses little-enough risk that very-close-second components would easily be enough. And if it's not, they can always purchase the components from the PvP player. Problem solved. Even if you do not have the best items exist only in these areas, you can at least have higher-quality components drop more often in PvP enabled zones than elsewhere.

You'll notice I've yet to address the issue of the Master mission being in Kessel, thus forcing other players into an open-PvP zone in order to train the Master box. This is a mistake, as I do not feel any player should have PvP forced on them simply to reach the highest-level in a skill. Here is the general situation I envision:

Two ways to train the Master box. You can either go to Kessel and risk facing other players in combat in order to destroy the Corvette, as it is now. I believe you should also get some sort of badge for destroying the Corvette, as at least a minor distinguishing attribute for having braved Kessel. Or, you can get the 7.5 million experience from NPCs and train the box without ever doing the Corvette mission, circumventing any sort of forced-PvP.
Kessel remains an open PvP area, with fixes to certain issues such as spawn camping and 1-2 hit kills. NPCs in Kessel will have a very small chance of dropping components that are slightly better than those you can find in non-PvP enabled zones, or, at least, have more of a chance of dropping the best components. (not sure if this is true now)
Reduce or remove decay from dying in PvP. This is a big one. Once you've reached Master, one of the few things you can do is fight other players - do not discourage this acitivity by enforcing a large decay penalty on death.

I believe this solves all the current problems, keeping both PvP players and PvE players content, if not entirely happy with the solution. It's all about compromise. The current situation is bad, yes, but turning Kessel into a PvE zone to fix the bad situation is just the opposite extreme. It's still a bad solution; it's just a bad solution that happens to make more people happy. As it is now, you will be significantly reducing the risk without modifying the reward, which is a large mistake to make. In the end, the only thing that can really threaten another player, short of NPC AI outright cheating, is another player. This truth must be factored in.

TH, I ask you to reconsider your current plan. My solution is easy enough to implement, and will make sure both sides are happy. Do not fix one problem by creating another. Kessel currently provides a great addition to JTL - a no-man's land where the rules are tossed aside and it's every faction for themselves. The mistake was in forcing people to come here to Master the Pilot profession - not in the existance of Kessel as a PvP zone.

I implore you TH, please do not go down this path.

- Silellak, Imperial Pilot Ace - Black Epsilon Squadron

Message Edited by Optathlete on 11-10-2004 08:42 AM

Rhysen

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:11 am

#262

Slarus wrote:

I still want to know the answer to these 2 questions TH:

What option is there for those people whowant to prove they're a Master Pilot by accepting the challenge of a difficult mission in a PvP zone?

Nothing cause it was never the point in the first place, there is no distinction and shouldn't be PvP is a style of play, and there is no proof it is more or less difficult.

What will differentiate the Grinders from those who took/want to take the challenge of a difficult mission in a PvP zone?

None just as it should be, you want an uber elite title find another game there is no point, if it was Declared PvP from the start you wouldn't be asking this.

This is still a MMOG. Risk vs Reward is the foundation of a MMOG.This isn't a balanced solution in the slightest. It's appeasement of those who can complain the loudest for the longest. And disregards both those who already met the current challenge and those who want to prove they're up to the same challenge. I've no intention of hanging around in Kessel or other PvP zones to shoot players without adequate reason.

Plenty of people find risk and reward in PvE the majority in fact, why should you get more or be special for PvP? I dont care if you PvP I do care if they reward you for it.

No proof that PvP is more or less difficult? Yeah, that's why people are shouting for a damage reduction. The same ships that take a pounding from the NPCs crumple in far fewer shots from a player. No proof that PvP is more or less difficult? Yeah, that why the AI you find so challenging will sit there attempting the impossible: outturning a ship that has yet to be outmaneuvered for the last 10 shots. While it's hyper-intelligent allies 1.5k away sit there turning in circles, waiting for the next player to come shoot them.

Slarus, you're nothing but a closed minded bigot. You don't like shooting your fellow players. Fine and dandy. That's a preference. But no AI can come close to the ingenuity, adaptibility and even sheer ruthlessness of another player. Stick with your preference because I can guarantee whatever skill you may think you posses, they're woefully inadequate against someone who learned flying against someone that has the capacity to figure out "Well maybe flying in a big circle constantlywon't lose that A-Wing on my tail".

ArianSix

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:27 am

#263

Thunderheart wrote:

Kade_Deveron wrote:
TH,

Are there any plans for a % reduction on PvP damage for JTLS? Right now, pretty much EVERYONE is a one shot kill.

Yep

Please be extremely careful when you do this. The cool thing about space, as it is, is that it's nothing like fighting in the ground game.

If you reduce damage too much, PvP is just going to be about who has the biggest and baddest equipment and/or the biggest and baddest gank squad.

Skill will always have it's place, but it's too easy to undermine the value of skill with the value of uber components.

I'd hate to see fight sequences similar to ground PvP. Two ships shooting at each other (and hitting) for half an hour just isn't very realistic. In the movies, ships were usually destroyed in a few hits (even shielded X-Wings)... this created an interesting dynamic in space because you could die just as easily as you could kill your target.

With the exception of getting ganked, I've found space combat to this point very exciting with every putting in a maximum of effort to outwit each other.

My fear is that if not careful, a PvP damage nerf could imbalance the entier dynamic and ruin PvP in space as a whole.

-- A6

(gggggggggggggggWnxnn[Arian Six]nnxnXggggggggggggggg)
Dark Jedi Knight - Ace Pilot - Master Shipwright
The Bloodfin Museum - Amaranth, Rori - (-5139, -5932)

Timah

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:39 am

#264

Wohoo, thanks TH!!!

And my asked to pass along a hearty thanks as well. Now she can try PvP when she's ready as a player, not because her toon is forced into it.

_________________________________________________________________________
No, no, no, no...I'm not crazy. I'm just insane--crazy's just a close personal friend of mine!

Slarus

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:42 am

#265

why not 2 ways to master ?

1.way pvp kessel

2.way grind 7.5 mio xp

and all people stay happy---

somethings are so easy to fix...

Why not more ways.

1. PvP Mission

2. PvE mission

3. XP grind

why not 5 or 10 why not give PvPers a special titel then PvEers then let those who don't have JTL play.

Easy fix is make the mission PvE like the game is intended to be, give no special recognition to ANYONE and we live with that.

Vicotnik

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:45 am

#266

Getoc wrote:

I couldnt be that hard to just move the mission target to another system .

Actually, it probably would be rather hard. Well, maybe not hard, but harder than this solution. The Corvette mission should be easy enough to move, since that's a unique spawn. The problem would be the first mission (which really is the one that suffers the most from the PVP-part of the master missions).

The developers would have to add these Tier 5 spawns to one of the current PVE zones and add code and descriptions so that only these ships would count towards the mission completion. etc.

That's not to say that SOE did the right thing here though, not at all.

--------
Particle effects, BAD!!! Nice, realistic graphics, GOOD!!!

Blixx

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:47 am

#267

I think this is a great solution. I rarely ever PVP and haven't check out kessel yet, but I imagine the feel is the same as when an imp scan forces you overt. Its a constant state of alertness and being suspicious of anyone you meet. I hope there is a way to keep this in the game, it isn't too much to ask that 1 zone out of the expansion be kept lawless.

zounds_klaxons wrote:

Thunderheart wrote:

john_p wrote:

GotEgg wrote:

It's very disapointing to see these changes coming - Kessel was a very fun place (and no i'm not master, i'm 3333). It was fun because it created the feeling of danger. I can see why you changed it - The vast majority of players in this game can't handle anything that may possibly cause them to lose. They've been pampered by underpowered mobs, and success on a silver platter. As soon as you put something in the game that may actually be dangerous, they all cry out in unison that it's not fair.

I've been taken down in Kessel several times, as well as taken out a few people - it adds to the feeling... everytime a player comes near, you feel like you are in very big trouble... there is nowhere in the game (except deep space now) where this feeling of impending doom surrounds you... i will miss it.
THEN GO OVERT BEFORE YOU TRANSFER TO KESSEL
JTL Overt = I want to PVP
JTL Covert = I do not want to PVP

Correct - you can still play PvP in the zone. Just hit a Faction Space Station and declare...

the entire "feel" of driving around overt and trying to hunt other overt players (only) is completely different from being in a PvP zone.

people can no longer role play pirates, non pilot masters can no longer take the galactic civil war to other sectors, etc.

the edgey feeling that youre being watched, or having to keep an eye out while blasting away at difficult mobs is gone. now, for those people who aren't master pilots, they will instead be reduced to aimlessly looking for a fight (like the theed/coronet PvPers in the ground game).

and what about the cool mini factions contained in the freelance pilot profession?

why not reconsider and leave kessel the way it is, but grant people attempting the corvette mission PvP immunity. or, move the corvette mission out of kessel perhaps?

"player vs. player combat" is treated like a dirty word around here, when (in my opinion) its far superior to PvE combat in most respects. its risky, and its more difficult (a real human will throw moves at you that no computer could ever think of), and with the kessel zone you could "feel" like a pirate if you wanted. or overzealous imperial. or whatever.

when the changes go through, it will be reduced to nothing but another zone to kill enemies. there were many people in the galaxy who didn't participate in the GCW, but now to take on the edgey feeling of fighting another player, we will be forced to do so.

is there no other solution?

Blixx
- TKM & Rebel Pilot
- Corbantis Galaxy

Slarus

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:59 am

#268

It takes longer to go overt in space than it does waiting for a shuttle on the ground. You stated you don't PvP so youobviously wouldn'tknow the process upon going overt. If you do attempt it, do me a favor and time it for me. I certainly know it isn't worth my time to go overt to have nothing to fight.

You foy to the station, /comm and say you want to declare, yeah real hard and if it is not worth your time, you didn't care about PvP very much.

Basic human psychology.

Nope I know it is your opinion and it's a minority opinion.

I don't mind you going in a multiplayer ship with your buddies to kill some NPCs. I don't care if you use your multiplayer ship to host parties, that is your choice in this game. You cannot tell me that you have never played a game where you defeated your human opponent (chess, checkers, anything) and you felt good about it. Anyway, I don't troll your posts, sorry. You can dig it up for me if you want though.

I get no satisfaction from PvP, sorry it is so hard to think that there are people with zero interest, but actually that is the majority of the subscribers.

I will consider someone an Ace if they have 5 player consecutives kills. Twitch does equal ability. Achieving a master rank in a Twitch-Based games means you have the ability to handle yourself accordingly in any given situation.

Very true but some people here try to fabricate the point that Ace means PvP god which it doesn't

You're right, I don't have a problem with PvP being forced on anyone because it goes the same way for myself. They die in 2-3 hits, I can die equally as fast. The point you are missing is that Kessel is a PvP-Zone, zone, yes zone, meaning I go into that zone to PvP. Not I declare outside before I come into the zone to PvP. It is a zone where non-masters can concentrate in one sector anytime of the day to have some action. Granted, master does give you the option for Deepspace but Kessel was something for non-masters to enjoy, to PvP.

Ok you have Overt still, so you have choice, but you wanted a minority of players who dont find PvE a challenge and mastered Pilot in a week anyway the ability to dictate policy for the rest of the 99%. It's favoritism to a minority fewer people want PvP and when you throw it as a condition in an advancement mission even fewer want it, look at the posts, even in the bastion of hard core games as this board is it was not popular to force PvP in a consentual PvP game.

I don't agree with forcing people to PvP (unless you are Jedi, but that is a different topic). I don't agree with allowing factionally aligned Ace pilots "PvE" badges either. It is a GCW, a war, you are going to fight other players for that title. I wouldn't mind the team resorting back to Beta and moving the master Corvette to Yavin and that potentially being the new master mission.

You have nothing more to cry about, you can still PvE in any zone regardless of the restrictions. Go try out the Warlord Tier 5 on Dathomir.

You dont agree with forced PvP just a few lines after you do, you gotta figure out where you stand. A change need to be made, Kessel should be an open PvP zone I agree. What I don't agree is forced PvP ANYWHERE, I dont agree with special PvP titles they dont make sense and I dont believe the wild thoery that Master was rare, magic and meant only for PvPers and those have been majorly broadcasted thoughts on these boards.

Slarus

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:01 am

#269

Don't nerf the kessel system. Leave it as it is. More PVP in the game would be nice. PVP is the only reason why a Master Pilot should stay in the game. If i want some PVE there are much better games then JTL. I like JTL coz you have the chance of PVP if you want to in Deep Space or the Kessel System. If you don't want PVP simply stay out of the Systems. Don't steal a possiblety for good PVP. Just simply move the Master missions out of PVP Zones! Or find another solution! But don't steal as another oportunety for PVP!

Oh so there is another MMORPG Star Wars game that has a ground and space game? Cause if there isn't then a PvE master mission is valid and warrented to keep a strong player base.

LoafMeat

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:01 am

#270

:-(

Bad..in my opinion

Master shall be hard work..and first time in this game that PvP was finally a necessary part of the game...

and all peeps that want to PvP are now only stuck in !!! 1 !!! zone - not much in my opinion too!

ANG

Loaf Meat z Don'van Atta z Irita'an Knox

"Tonight my son I'll heed the call. If NGE's to live, then I must fall.

Just give me one more moment, another walk out in the sun,

one more day to find some justice with your shadow by my side.

Cuff me, tie me, lock me down, cause I won't be back to go another round.

As one!

My blood runs red beneath the knife, I gave my soul to ANG tonight"

Slarus

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:05 am

#271

Wow I am glad I made master b4 they changed this.

Wow goody for you.

When I made master I liked the fact that I could lose at any point, I mean I didnt want to be like a guy in the middle of a war saying "you can't touch me, you can't trouch me, nananananana......"

No one says this and if they did it is they who are immature.

If someone attacked me while I was doing my master mission oh well, time to do it again. I did part 1 of that mission solo and all I did was constantly scan the area, I felt it was a great way to earn master, after all a true ACE can do it just fine.

But since it seems no one did attack you, then you got cheated and you cheated. I mean if Ace absolutly has to have it's meaning changed to give you a good feeling of being special then you should earn it, which you didn't. YOU did not earn Master if you didn't PvP according to you.

We have Imp Aces, we have the even harder Nuetral Aces, whats with all the crying? If ya want to be and ACE then you have to fly like an ACE.

What does that mean to you, because the reason the titel exsists and the true meaning in piloting don't seem to agree with you.

Well, I am still very happy I became an ass with kessel being a PVP area.

Proof positive PvP is an ego fest and not a skill test.

Slarus

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:07 am

#272

Thunderheart, please make sure that the ace missions don't become too easy.

If kessel becomes a pve-zone, give the corvette at least a massive tier5-fighter escort. Otherwise players will be able to complete this mission without having any risks.

People already finished master with no problems, making it tougher how? If folks were soloing Vettes in a PvP zone then PvP did nothing to the difficulty and making more NPCs is unfair to the thousands who should get the same challenge they got.

Slarus

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:11 am

#273

So ya caved in yet again...What a shocker.

What about the rest of us who did it the right way?

Well it wasn;t a challenge for you if you finished it so fast with PvP.

The way that actualy takes some skill and support not too mention guts.

Took no real skill obviously if you did it so fast, and if you didn't PvP then you cheat by your own logic

With all the bugs still in the JTL launch, I would think you'd fix those first...But why the heck would you do that when all you care about is the whinners and your bottom dollar?

I think your going to make a lot more people unhappy than you do make happy on this one...

But it's gonna make MORE happy then unhappy as the vast majority of players in an MMO don't PvP.

So now we get one perma PvP zone and not till master?

You got 10 zones, just Declare Overt and you got 10 zones, what you don't have is unwilling people who are forced into PvP.

Ace Pilot is cheezy after this and I wont recognize a single one as a true Ace after this goes live...

Ace is the title for master, to make it sound like a piloting term, again Ace is 5 confirmed kills, Ace is not rare magical or for PvPers only get that through your head your statement is unfounded.

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