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Thread: The super-speed NPC engines have got to go!
Maelstorm_1
Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:58 pm
#14
not fun? ok if you want danger i suggest you dive your fighter into a pack of tier 3 ships .. about 7-8 string .. even with 2400 pt shields you will be in a hell of a fight.
Davosyn
Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:28 pm
#15
truewildman wrote:That's all I do. But I target the engines. I still can't disable in 3 shots with 2 3800 damage cannons, with .62 and .63 to shields and armor, .3 fire rate. And, yes, I'm landing direct hits.Message Edited by truewildman on 11-23-2004 05:10 PM
you dont need to do it in 3 shots, you just need to give yourself the time to make more shots, it all evens out if you make it.
is it possible to ask for something to be somewhat of a challenge, i mean, without nerfing everything 10x over?
YamadaMan
Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:34 pm
#16
I agree with the "learn to fight" statement... if I can hit almost 1200 speed with my B wing, with a reward engine, then anyone can do it.
just use "space buffs" -) engine overload 3, weapons overload 3
just use "space buffs" -) engine overload 3, weapons overload 3
Maelstorm_1
Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:35 pm
#17
Davosyn wrote:
truewildman wrote:That's all I do. But I target the engines. I still can't disable in 3 shots with 2 3800 damage cannons, with .62 and .63 to shields and armor, .3 fire rate. And, yes, I'm landing direct hits.Message Edited by truewildman on 11-23-2004 05:10 PM
you dont need to do it in 3 shots, you just need to give yourself the time to make more shots, it all evens out if you make it.
is it possible to ask for something to be somewhat of a challenge, i mean, without nerfing everything 10x over?
problem is 90% of the mmo crowd are not twich players .. the other 10% that love both twich and timed are exeeding well .. rest are having probs cause they don't want to try .. they just want to click 2 buttons and get thier xp treat as usuall.
have fun guys.. the ones that can fly ane enjoy it .. the ohter 90% playerbase will cry nerf till it is done .. then we'll be bored to hell ... pvp in space? where is it??
Blackjack_Nova
Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:52 pm
#18
The point is not that the enemy ships are unbeatable.
Sure you can dive into a hive of tier 7 ships and have a great time dogfighting them IF you have high level gear!
Maelstorm_1 - You are an Ace so the AI would be more enjoyable for you to fight against, you have the highest level gear that the game can produuce!
But fora large group of people that did not play 24/7 the AI is not as fun to play against because it is ONE SIZE FITS ALL. The AI is targeted for high speed
Sure you can dive into a hive of tier 7 ships and have a great time dogfighting them IF you have high level gear!
Maelstorm_1 - You are an Ace so the AI would be more enjoyable for you to fight against, you have the highest level gear that the game can produuce!
But fora large group of people that did not play 24/7 the AI is not as fun to play against because it is ONE SIZE FITS ALL. The AI is targeted for high speed
ships. You can not get an engine fast enough to be effective until you have access to level 6 - 7 equipment and even then it is not fast enough.
To say that I need to be a better pilot means that you are not hearing what I am saying. The AI could be and should be much better! Any goof ball with
a buffed ship can kick the crude out of the lame AI that we are seeing now. Come on you can see that can't you?
Here is my short list of games that offer AI that is much more enjoyable to flight against then what we are seeing now:
WIng Commander I, II, III, V, IV and VI
X-Wing vs TIE Fighter
X-Wing
Tie Fighter
Falcon I , II and III
To say that I need to be a better pilot means that you are not hearing what I am saying. The AI could be and should be much better! Any goof ball with
a buffed ship can kick the crude out of the lame AI that we are seeing now. Come on you can see that can't you?
Here is my short list of games that offer AI that is much more enjoyable to flight against then what we are seeing now:
WIng Commander I, II, III, V, IV and VI
X-Wing vs TIE Fighter
X-Wing
Tie Fighter
Falcon I , II and III
Eagle I and II
Freelancer
Jumpgate
Privateer
Red Baron I and II
All of these games had AI that offered more divesity then what we are seeing here. I am not a bad pilot, I am a skilled pilot that wants more
Freelancer
Jumpgate
Privateer
Red Baron I and II
All of these games had AI that offered more divesity then what we are seeing here. I am not a bad pilot, I am a skilled pilot that wants more
challage MUCH MORE. More diversity. I don't want to play agaisnt "gamed up" "cheap" tricks like uber engines and flight dynamics that
apply to the AI but notme.
It is not about a kill count, itis about taking the low road to an AI solution when I know that the DEV's all wantto, and will takethe high road. I am
just pointing out the way. My funcomes inthe journey notjust the destination. I don't grind. I play. Ido not wanta nerf I want adeadly AI that fights
me like a warrior would, instead ofthe lame duck we are seeing now.
Blackjack Nova
apply to the AI but notme.
It is not about a kill count, itis about taking the low road to an AI solution when I know that the DEV's all wantto, and will takethe high road. I am
just pointing out the way. My funcomes inthe journey notjust the destination. I don't grind. I play. Ido not wanta nerf I want adeadly AI that fights
me like a warrior would, instead ofthe lame duck we are seeing now.
Blackjack Nova
Message Edited by Blackjack_Nova on 11-23-2004 07:56 PM
Sin-Vraal
Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:59 pm
#19
Maelstorm_1 wrote:
Davosyn wrote:
truewildman wrote:That's all I do. But I target the engines. I still can't disable in 3 shots with 2 3800 damage cannons, with .62 and .63 to shields and armor, .3 fire rate. And, yes, I'm landing direct hits.Message Edited by truewildman on 11-23-2004 05:10 PM
you dont need to do it in 3 shots, you just need to give yourself the time to make more shots, it all evens out if you make it.
is it possible to ask for something to be somewhat of a challenge, i mean, without nerfing everything 10x over?
problem is 90% of the mmo crowd are not twich players .. the other 10% that love both twich and timed are exeeding well .. rest are having probs cause they don't want to try .. they just want to click 2 buttons and get thier xp treat as usuall.
have fun guys.. the ones that can fly ane enjoy it .. the ohter 90% playerbase will cry nerf till it is done .. then we'll be bored to hell ... pvp in space? where is it??
Meh... I was a twitch player before I was a CRPG player. I enjoy flying in JtL... I think it's much more enjoyable than most of the ground game.
But the OP is right in at least one respect: the AI needs to be fixed. I certainly don't think it's too tough to fly against (yet?), but it's too bloody dumb.
Again siding with the OP, enemies in the Wing Commander series were much more "real" and intelligent in the their flight patterns, and that's one of the things that made those games so amazing (though being able to fly the /Behemoth/ defence mission drunk didn't hurt).
Either way, I don't think anyone is saying that the AI is too tough. If anything, it's too stupid. And yeah, it seems unbalanced in the same way that AI enemies in old TBS games were: they cheated to be better than you.
Maelstorm_1
Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:08 pm
#20
ace or not the combat was the same for me .. without UBER equipment .. it's all about getting on your target's 6'oclock and blasting him with time to shake what's infront of you and repeating the process.
Fighter combat IS ABOUT SPEED.. SPEED IS LIFE. read any book based on air combat and you will find that speed is the key to surviving and making the kill.
remeber .. when lucas did the space secrens he wanted a WWII combat look/feel to it .. this has it ... i see alot of people asking me for help with tier 3 and 4 missions .. i help them .. and watch as they just sit in one spot and spin attacking their targets.. then they wonder why they have such a hard time ...
Joust style combat is best for Boom/zoom type speed fighters.. turn/twist for slower fighters.. most ppl are not spending time shopping looking for the right engines or looting till they get a good one from lower level npc ships.. instead they expect to be able to compete with high end npc with average made equipment .. WRONG!
the solution is not to nerf the ai .. the solution is for the players to Adapt and overcome!
Fighter combat IS ABOUT SPEED.. SPEED IS LIFE. read any book based on air combat and you will find that speed is the key to surviving and making the kill.
remeber .. when lucas did the space secrens he wanted a WWII combat look/feel to it .. this has it ... i see alot of people asking me for help with tier 3 and 4 missions .. i help them .. and watch as they just sit in one spot and spin attacking their targets.. then they wonder why they have such a hard time ...
Joust style combat is best for Boom/zoom type speed fighters.. turn/twist for slower fighters.. most ppl are not spending time shopping looking for the right engines or looting till they get a good one from lower level npc ships.. instead they expect to be able to compete with high end npc with average made equipment .. WRONG!
the solution is not to nerf the ai .. the solution is for the players to Adapt and overcome!
atytula
Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:10 pm
#21
There are a lot of mixed opinions here and I really wish each side can see the other clearly.
For those that have the argument that NPCs are too tough, I say slow down. You are trying to master pilot too quickly. If you are having trouble with tier 2, getting to tier 3 isn't going to be any easier. And if they make it easier because of the crying on these forums, Aces will be leaving the game because it provides no challenge.
For those that are saying that the AI is fine, try PvPing with crappy weapons (so you don't get one hit kills) and you will see how bad the AI truely is. We are not dealing with an AI like in the Xwing games, but a very simple AI. When the AI gets within a certain range it will try to find a way on your six. If you try to do a head to head, the AI will take a couple of shots and pass you. Then it will turn around to do another pass. If you turn around, you will setup for another head to head (this can be bypassed by turning early and you will find yourself on the AI's six). The problem is the devs increased the speed of the NPC ships so now when the AI passes you in the joust, it gets to far away to remember to turn around. When it gets to a certain distance (where it is away from its spawn point) it turns around and heads back only to find you boosting at full speed to catch up, and you get your head to head again. The problem with this system is, if you turn early, and boost when you see your target, you get a chance to unload your capacitor on the NPC and in two passes, you have killed him. The reason why I complain is what used to take 1 min to kill, now takes 3 min, and 2 min is just playing catch up.
What we need is a fix on the AI, not a boost in speed (unless we all get that boost). People that are not good at flight sims will need to stay fighting lower tier which should have simpler AI and components, but at the higher tier, we need not stonger NPCs but also better AI.
Maelstorm_1
Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:17 pm
#22
ok for the 1000th time .. how to keep the ai from jousting you to death.. ENOUGH ALLREADY LEARN TO FREAKING FLY!!
#1 .. as your target approaches you head on .. slow to about 50% throttle ... BEFORE HE PASSES YOU at about 100m distance turn arround .. turn left .. turn right .. wichever... and come to 180 degree turn... it will place the ship right smack infront of you .. move up yoru speed to match his.. maybe a little slower so you can avoid his manuvers to shake you...
now blast away!! keep him infront .. don't trust the lead indicator 100%
LEARN TO FLY .. LEARN TO FIGHT .. DON'T ASK FOR NERFS..
90% of my equipment as i leveld up and after making ace is looted .. not crafted.. the only money i've spent was in getting my blueprints missles and launchers.. and even then only needed blueprints...
#1 .. as your target approaches you head on .. slow to about 50% throttle ... BEFORE HE PASSES YOU at about 100m distance turn arround .. turn left .. turn right .. wichever... and come to 180 degree turn... it will place the ship right smack infront of you .. move up yoru speed to match his.. maybe a little slower so you can avoid his manuvers to shake you...
now blast away!! keep him infront .. don't trust the lead indicator 100%
LEARN TO FLY .. LEARN TO FIGHT .. DON'T ASK FOR NERFS..
90% of my equipment as i leveld up and after making ace is looted .. not crafted.. the only money i've spent was in getting my blueprints missles and launchers.. and even then only needed blueprints...
Message Edited by Maelstorm_1 on 11-23-2004 10:18 PM
Ducimus
Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:36 pm
#23
>> ok for the 1000th time .. how to keep the ai from jousting you to death.. ENOUGH ALLREADY LEARN TO FREAKING FLY!!
I know how to fly. Quite well acutally. What ticks me off is the game isnt conducive to combat manuvers like an immelman or sissors.
>>#1 .. as your target approaches you head on .. slow to about 50% throttle ... (blah blah, etc etc)
So basically your doing the same thing im doing, just from an opposite direction. I like flying, but my bottom line is i do what i find most effective. You must have a pretty big engine to keep up with them. I have an A wing with the prenerfed 92 speed engine, and an unshielded teir 4 ties still can creep away from me, let alone teir5's. The window of opportunity to fire is very small.
>>LEARN TO FLY .. LEARN TO FIGHT .. DON'T ASK FOR NERFS.
Never would i insinuate a nerf to the AI, i want a smarter AI, not one with super buffed stats that are not normally achievable.
I don't want an AI with a 300 speed/YPR engine, and only 9 AI subroutines. I want an AI with a 90ish speed YPR engine (just like a players) with 300 possible AI routines it might try to use against me.
I know how to fly. Quite well acutally. What ticks me off is the game isnt conducive to combat manuvers like an immelman or sissors.
>>#1 .. as your target approaches you head on .. slow to about 50% throttle ... (blah blah, etc etc)
So basically your doing the same thing im doing, just from an opposite direction. I like flying, but my bottom line is i do what i find most effective. You must have a pretty big engine to keep up with them. I have an A wing with the prenerfed 92 speed engine, and an unshielded teir 4 ties still can creep away from me, let alone teir5's. The window of opportunity to fire is very small.
>>LEARN TO FLY .. LEARN TO FIGHT .. DON'T ASK FOR NERFS.
Never would i insinuate a nerf to the AI, i want a smarter AI, not one with super buffed stats that are not normally achievable.
I don't want an AI with a 300 speed/YPR engine, and only 9 AI subroutines. I want an AI with a 90ish speed YPR engine (just like a players) with 300 possible AI routines it might try to use against me.
Maelstorm_1
Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:46 pm
#24
i have no problem keeping up with tier 5 awings in my oppresor, interceptor, advanced, in with the spd 92 engine..
with my neutral same in my rhikk/yt1300 and firespray .. dune lizzard .. maybe you need a new chassis?
with my neutral same in my rhikk/yt1300 and firespray .. dune lizzard .. maybe you need a new chassis?
lycanthropy
Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:49 pm
#25
Maelstorm_1 wrote:
ok for the 1000th time .. how to keep the ai from jousting you to death.. ENOUGH ALLREADY LEARN TO FREAKING FLY!!
#1 .. as your target approaches you head on .. slow to about 50% throttle ... BEFORE HE PASSES YOU at about 100m distance turn arround .. turn left .. turn right .. wichever... and come to 180 degree turn... it will place the ship right smack infront of you .. move up yoru speed to match his.. maybe a little slower so you can avoid his manuvers to shake you...
now blast away!! keep him infront .. don't trust the lead indicator 100%
LEARN TO FLY .. LEARN TO FIGHT .. DON'T ASK FOR NERFS..
90% of my equipment as i leveld up and after making ace is looted .. not crafted.. the only money i've spent was in getting my blueprints missles and launchers.. and even then only needed blueprints...
Message Edited by Maelstorm_1 on 11-23-2004 10:18 PM
the AI has gotten an unexpected advantage, they can perform 180turns at fullspeed, your little posted trick to get inback of the target is as textbook as they come, in normal situations it works, with the live AI, it fails most of the time. You have a master pilot title so you really cant discuss this on the lvl of everyone else still trying to finish the quests. Apparently the devs did not mean for the jousting ai to be the normal, which is why on TC, it has been removed. don't tell us to learn to fly, you should learn how to show more intelligence then the JTL AI.
Davosyn
Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:44 am
#26
its not what equipment you have, its how to use it, some of the better parts to use going up can be lower level, if you go in with that attitude yo need to recheck your ship first...
Knowledge is power.
Knowledge is power.