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Thread: Still think pvp needs damage reduction beyond 25%
Most players who fly one of the heavier fighters agree with you, Ditolus, but right now there's a pretty vocal group of interceptor pilots who don't want to have any sort of downside to their fighter of choice. This is one area I do have faith in the devs on, though, and I'm pretty confident that we'll see a further damage reduction in PvP at some point in the near future. Hopefully it will be in a patch that also addresses the many inferiority issues that multiplayer ships currently have.
Ditolus wrote:
IMO it should be more like 75-90%. If it's 75% on the ground then I see no reason why space should be different. PvE and PvP are different animals that require different damage modifiers and the devs clearly understand this hence the 75 reduction on the ground. I am an ace pilot with a pretty tricked out fighter. But as it stands now pvp battles in deeps space last all of 4 seconds. I really don't understand the fun in that. I saw some people say this makes flight skill and manuevering the main part of pvp. But regardless this still doesnt negate that fact that all a person has to do is clip u with a shot and ur dead. And this totally nixes the use of heavy fighters in dogfighting since its all about speed and maneuverability and nothing to do with shields and armor. If an awing can kill a Rhikxyrk in 2 shots whats the point? Longer fights that require dogfighting similar to pve situations is a lot more fun imo. quicker fights with one shot kills may be more realistic but isn't very fun.
It's fastly getting to the point that anyone who tries to use player-made weapons in PvP is a dead man.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 12-20-2004 06:18 AM
A few days ago, while wandering into deep space, i saw a Nova courrier above the Star destroyer...
I fired my three 3600 damage guns.... Booom....
Well, maybe i was already disabled...
A few minuts later, the nova appears again in my sight...
3 guns together.... Piou Piou....Kaboom.... 2 bolts and it exploded
The pilot send me a tell to say
woot, well done ! i had 2500 shields and didn't see any damage come before I blew and as much armor....
He didn't have time to engage any fight fly strategy or to warn his gunners a bad guy was around....
Let's lower damages to what it shoul do in PvP to give real interest : reduce them to 25% of NORMAL damege : you only do 25% of damage you use to do... And that would still be really powerfull...
5 or 6 shots before the end
Message Edited by Ditolus on 12-20-2004 01:03 AM
Nitwit wrote:
You guys can't be any more wrong about this. PvP is fine in space. It isn't supposed to take you 5 minutes to kill someone in space. Just look at the movies. Gosh dang, it only took a couple of shots.
Also note, there is a reason why the A-Wings/TIE Advanced are so useful in PvP: they are quick. People fly those ships because they know that they have a better chance of surviving out there. Someone in this thread noted that there are certain conditions which are present in PvP. In science, these are called the given conditions.
1.)Thecurrent gun damage is set to penetrate shields and armor in 1-2 shots.
2.) There is a fixed number of ships and componets
3.) Slow and large style ships makeyou an easy target.
Therefore, people pick faster, lighter, and more manoveriable ships because they survive better in them. The only part of PvPthat changes is the pilot. In science, this is called the variable. This is the hard truth that some people don't wish to hear!
1.) Some pilots are better than others.
Why should the devs nerf all ships until they are equal?Some ships are just simply better than others. That is why you have to EARN them.You honestly want to see a Y-Wing being able to take on a TIE Advanced? No, PvP is designed for the best of the best of the best to win. I'm sorry if that leaves some people out...but too bad. Making it "fair" for everyone makes the game suck.
You seem to be argueing both sides in your post. You start off by saying PvP is fine, bet then you spend the next several paragraphs saying what most of us have been saying all along, that right now in the game small, fast ships have a huge advantage compared to other ships. You then make some mention about players' piloting skills, but then right after that you seem to throw your support behind a system where the type of ship you choose to fly is more important than the player's piloting skill.
As for your question... "You honestly want to see a Y-wing being able to take on a TIE Advanced?" Assuming both pilots are masters with comprable piloting skills, and both have outfitted their ships with components of comprable difficulty in aquiring, then YES, they most definately should both be on equal footing.
You seem to be under the impression that if the cert for a ship is higher in the skill tree, than that ship should be an all around better ship than any ship with a lower cert. I think that's a very bad outlook to take on things, as in the long run all it will lead to is "composite in space" with everyone flying the same ship. Considering that all three of the pilot proffession get the certfor their light fighter, medium fighter, and heavy fighter at different points throughout their respective tiers, I think its safe to say that the devs intended for most of the ships to be comprable to each other. The reward that a pilot gets for mastering is not neccessarily access to a ship that is better than all other ships, but instead he gets access to better components, a larger flight computer, and better special abilities.
Now, let me ask you some questions... Why should an A-wing, flown by a master pilot and outfitted with top of the line equipment, be given some sort ofinnate advantage over a Heavy Blacksun Fighter, also equiped with top of the line components and flown by a comprably skilled master pilot? How does this make the game fun? Can the A-wing pilot truthfully say he's the better pilot if he wins?
You say "PvP is designed for the best of the best of the best to win.", but how can that be true when chassis selection is the dominant factor in determining who wins? Personally, I'd rather have a system where a player's piloting skill and the quality of the componentshe's assembled are the primary factor in determining weather or not he triumphs in PvP.
now in space the exact same philosophy needs to be adhered to. with the current damage in pvp a-wings and interceptors are the bh's and tka's of space. as i said above, the situation needs to be changed so that heavy fighters can take a pounding but be sluggish while lighter fighers die quicker but evade easier. every fighter needs an advantage and a weakness, just like a game of rock, paper, scissors. and this is how u create a competitive pvp environment in both ground and space.
Message Edited by Ditolus on 12-21-2004 03:56 PM
Like the ground game, it works on the principles of:
NPC = High Hitpoints, Low Damage
Player = Low Hitpoints, High Damage.
The ground game works by putting in a damage reduction in PvP combat in an effort to balance Hitpoints and Damage. But as this is missing from space, it creates an imbalanced system.
And yes, a well outfitted bomber should be able to take down an interceptor with comparable equipment. All that will be changed are the tactics involved - the bomber will take more damage and give more damage at the cost of manuverability. Of course it will always probably be a bit harder to be a skilled bomber pilot, since it's not as simple as 'get on their six and hold down Joystick button #1'.
Imaridril wrote:
Nitwit wrote:
You guys can't be any more wrong about this. PvP is fine in space. It isn't supposed to take you 5 minutes to kill someone in space. Just look at the movies. Gosh dang, it only took a couple of shots.
Also note, there is a reason why the A-Wings/TIE Advanced are so useful in PvP: they are quick. People fly those ships because they know that they have a better chance of surviving out there. Someone in this thread noted that there are certain conditions which are present in PvP. In science, these are called the given conditions.
1.)Thecurrent gun damage is set to penetrate shields and armor in 1-2 shots.
2.) There is a fixed number of ships and componets
3.) Slow and large style ships makeyou an easy target.
Therefore, people pick faster, lighter, and more manoveriable ships because they survive better in them. The only part of PvPthat changes is the pilot. In science, this is called the variable. This is the hard truth that some people don't wish to hear!
1.) Some pilots are better than others.
Why should the devs nerf all ships until they are equal?Some ships are just simply better than others. That is why you have to EARN them.You honestly want to see a Y-Wing being able to take on a TIE Advanced? No, PvP is designed for the best of the best of the best to win. I'm sorry if that leaves some people out...but too bad. Making it "fair" for everyone makes the game suck.
You seem to be argueing both sides in your post. You start off by saying PvP is fine, bet then you spend the next several paragraphs saying what most of us have been saying all along, that right now in the game small, fast ships have a huge advantage compared to other ships. You then make some mention about players' piloting skills, but then right after that you seem to throw your support behind a system where the type of ship you choose to fly is more important than the player's piloting skill.
As for your question... "You honestly want to see a Y-wing being able to take on a TIE Advanced?" Assuming both pilots are masters with comprable piloting skills, and both have outfitted their ships with components of comprable difficulty in aquiring, then YES, they most definately should both be on equal footing.
You seem to be under the impression that if the cert for a ship is higher in the skill tree, than that ship should be an all around better ship than any ship with a lower cert. I think that's a very bad outlook to take on things, as in the long run all it will lead to is "composite in space" with everyone flying the same ship. Considering that all three of the pilot proffession get the certfor their light fighter, medium fighter, and heavy fighter at different points throughout their respective tiers, I think its safe to say that the devs intended for most of the ships to be comprable to each other. The reward that a pilot gets for mastering is not neccessarily access to a ship that is better than all other ships, but instead he gets access to better components, a larger flight computer, and better special abilities.
Now, let me ask you some questions... Why should an A-wing, flown by a master pilot and outfitted with top of the line equipment, be given some sort ofinnate advantage over a Heavy Blacksun Fighter, also equiped with top of the line components and flown by a comprably skilled master pilot? How does this make the game fun? Can the A-wing pilot truthfully say he's the better pilot if he wins?
You say "PvP is designed for the best of the best of the best to win.", but how can that be true when chassis selection is the dominant factor in determining who wins? Personally, I'd rather have a system where a player's piloting skill and the quality of the componentshe's assembled are the primary factor in determining weather or not he triumphs in PvP.
Sorry to ruin your utopia here, but the higher level ships should dominate the lower ones. There are trade offs to every move in the game. You buy a heavy weapon and it does damage, but at the same time takes a lot of mass. You buy a A-Wing, it turns quick and is small, but lacks mass. Everything has a opportunity cost to it. And, with the current system players have found that the optimal PvP system is fast fighters. It makes the game more about pilot skills. Theoretically, you can achieve a "perfect" ship once you find the best RE's and loots.
You ever wonder why people natually went the whole "composite on the ground"? Cause it was the best. Soyou would propose a nerf to upper level ships so that lower level can take them on? Then what is the incentive to get higher in the skill trees? Heck if my Z-95 can own your TIE Oppressor, then forget mastering.
As for your question about the A-wing and the Heavy Black Sun fighter, the A-wing should win. Under the current system, the stats for all ships and componets are laid out. You can choose to fly that Heavy fighter. But at the same time, you know that it is slow and will not last in PvP combat. As to how this makes the game fun...easy, players will natually move to the "best" ships/components/skills in each profession and then it will only be the pilot's abilities which decide who wins.