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Thread: JTL PVP Balancing Idea
Coran_Sienar
Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:01 am
#15
The problem is that there's no reason to PvP. In Deep Space, the gunboats drop decent loot at times and that's nice, but you can get the same loot farming Tier 4 spawns in any other system. And if you do get a player kill, well, the FP are nice, but there's really no incentive in terms of loot or kill tallys to do so. There really needs to be a motivating factor and reward for engaging in PvP combat. The old byline of "PVP is the endgame" just doesn't cut it. That's like telling someone that work is its own reward and that they should forego the paycheck.
I really like the player kill tally idea. I wonder how hard that would be to implement.
quadpers0n
Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:19 am
#16
You would think it would not be that hard to implement. I was going to say yank the code out of the ground game but obviously the ground game has DBs, whereas space does not acknowedge player kills at all. No FP, no XP, no nothing. You are simply hittable, and when you hit 0 you go home.
I definately agree that there needs to be incentive to PVP though, and it should not be in the form of monetary gain, nor should it be succeptible to exploiting via dueling.
If Tiggs ever asks what my number 1 thing I want to fix about SWG is, I will tell him it's that, followed closely by gigantic shield generators for MP ships.
Coran_Sienar
Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:22 am
#17
Yup. Couldn't agree more. All I want is a "I killed 30 players in Deep Space and all I got was this stinking T-shirt" T-shirt. hehehe.
Ducimus
Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:33 am
#18
>>The way combat should of been done would be to make all the ships be very simalar to each other stat wise,
<<
In one fell swoop you have removed half of the JTL content right there.
>>it would bring every body to the same level in PVP. The main reason that i do not PVP because ther is no equal ground, if a teir 2 pilot is fighting against a teir 4 pilot with both in the same ships the teir 2 pilot is at a severe disavantage
<<
Firstly, a teir 2 pilot doesnt really have much buisness PvPing yet.
Secondly once past the newbie stages the game is pretty much on an equal footing PvP damage being what it is. If sony gives in to some of the whining, and reduces PvP damage even more, THEN, and ONLY THEN would you have a vaild point about equipment. Because THEN who has the best equipment will be more of a deciding factor than personal skill is currently.
I didnt read the rest, thats as far as i got, and those two items are what stuck out at me.
Seriously, before you make suggestions on PvP, acutaly go and PvP a few nights beforehand so you have the voice of experience behind you. Until you have said experience, you don't have much crediblity.
<<
In one fell swoop you have removed half of the JTL content right there.
>>it would bring every body to the same level in PVP. The main reason that i do not PVP because ther is no equal ground, if a teir 2 pilot is fighting against a teir 4 pilot with both in the same ships the teir 2 pilot is at a severe disavantage
<<
Firstly, a teir 2 pilot doesnt really have much buisness PvPing yet.
Secondly once past the newbie stages the game is pretty much on an equal footing PvP damage being what it is. If sony gives in to some of the whining, and reduces PvP damage even more, THEN, and ONLY THEN would you have a vaild point about equipment. Because THEN who has the best equipment will be more of a deciding factor than personal skill is currently.
I didnt read the rest, thats as far as i got, and those two items are what stuck out at me.
Seriously, before you make suggestions on PvP, acutaly go and PvP a few nights beforehand so you have the voice of experience behind you. Until you have said experience, you don't have much crediblity.
Ducimus
Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:39 am
#19
Coran_Sienar wrote:I have to disagree with the Star Destroyer comment. They should be impossible to solo or else what's the point of the Empire building one?>/DIV>
Everyone, repeat after me......
"Deep space is NOT a PvE zone.
Deep space is a PvP battlefield. "
--------------
The purpose of deep space is to fight against players of the opposing faction. The ISD and Freedom station exist PURELY as OBJECTIVES. Almost like capture the flag if you will.
If your a rebel your objective is to destroy the iSD
My objective is to stop you before you do, and if i dont try to stop you, you will suceed.
My objective as an imperial is to destroy the rebel station.
Your ojective as a rebel is to stop me. And if you dont try to stop me, i will succeed.
----------------------
So lets go over this again....
"Deep space is NOT a PvE zone.
Deep space is a PvP battlefield. "
Corran950
Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:24 pm
#20
Ducimus wrote:
>>The way combat should of been done would be to make all the ships be very simalar to each other stat wise,
<<
In one fell swoop you have removed half of the JTL content right there.
no what i ment was each ship chassis type is similarto the other of the same ship chassis, so for example each tie fighter has the same speed, and manuverabliity as another tie fighter. I did not say that i wanted all ships to have x speed and y manuver. if you would of read farther you would of seen what i ment.
>>it would bring every body to the same level in PVP. The main reason that i do not PVP because ther is no equal ground, if a teir 2 pilot is fighting against a teir 4 pilot with both in the same ships the teir 2 pilot is at a severe disavantage
<<
Firstly, a teir 2 pilot doesnt really have much buisness PvPing yet.
Secondly once past the newbie stages the game is pretty much on an equal footing PvP damage being what it is. If sony gives in to some of the whining, and reduces PvP damage even more, THEN, and ONLY THEN would you have a vaild point about equipment. Because THEN who has the best equipment will be more of a deciding factor than personal skill is currently.
Why should it be required to be a certine level to PVP? Wouldn't it promote GCW by making the game fun for all reguardless if they have spent 6 months playing the game or 2 weeks.
I didnt read the rest, thats as far as i got, and those two items are what stuck out at me.
Seriously, before you make suggestions on PvP, acutaly go and PvP a few nights beforehand so you have the voice of experience behind you. Until you have said experience, you don't have much crediblity.
#1 i have PVPed a little on the ground and in space. on the ground im a crafter with some combat skillsand got killed doing little or no damage to opposing player. and when i PVPed in space it started to look the same way where those with higher equipment wins most of the time.
- Rebel Pilot 4/4/4/3
quadpers0n
Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:38 pm
#21
You would do well to follow your own advice Corran and read the entirety of his post. He said that once you pass the newbie box you are essentially on equal footing with regards to PVP. You do not have to be a certain level, you just need acceptable equipment.
And before you say it, acceptable PVP equipment for the most part can be made with level 2-4 stuff.
I understand what you are attempting to say, that all Ties should have similar stats, that all Tie LNs should have similar stats, that all Awings should have similar stats, ETC. but the problem with that is the way the game set up it's mission/skilltree. To reverse the mass/component based system we have now would eliminate 90% of JTLcontent, it would also eliminate the content of outfitting your respective ships. What you are asking for is a complete redesign of how the game works and while that's nice, it's not a practical suggestion.
quadpers0n
Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:00 pm
#23
I don't think a monetary reward or a difficulty increase would suffice to bring players to the station. Note that while players did go destroy the rebel station when it could drop a million credit reward the same people that did so on my server are still infrequently in deep space now.
Something else really needs to happen to deep space and I'm not sure what. I'd like to say that a killboard/ranking system would entice people to come there but I'm not sure if that would do it either. The bottom line is players will go do things that are fun and right now the ISD is missing the fun part.
Capture the flag, what the ISD was likened to in a previous post is a good example. Right now the game is basically: take down the ISD, imperials, protect it... that's hardly a game.
Capture the flag needs to be emulated in this and something else needs to be thrown into the game.
take down the ISD, rebels across the galaxy get a 10% faction bonus until the rebel base is taken down.
That's sort of what i'm getting at. there needs to be consequence and stock in protecting it or taking it down, a simple reward doesn't accomplish that. It's like if capture the flag was merely "here touch this button!" and then once you touched the button someone said "you win! game over!" that's not fun, but throw a scoreboard in and it starts being a real game.
What I really wonder about though, is why the designers don't think about this kind of thing when they design it. Maybe it's only obvious after playing it.
Ducimus
Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:48 pm
#24
>>However, 95% of the time I go to Deep Space, there's no one else there. Perhaps if the ISD were harder to take down, it would necessitate more people to come in order to attempt it.
>>
ISD/space station difficulty i dont think has much to do with lack of people in deep space. I think its the following:
1.) PvE people are the majority. Deep space = PvP, therego, the majority won't bother.
2.) Of the people who do PvP, some hear "1 to 3 shot kills" and dont even other. Or they attempted it, and not knowing how to improve their situational awareness got waxed, never saw the guy who did it, and immediatly swore space PvP off henceforth.
3.) Other people who PvP, probably won't in space because theres no uber template and 80% composite to hide behind. I know people who get challenged to duels on the ground, who ask their antagonizer to /duel them inspace and they shut up for some reason.
>>
ISD/space station difficulty i dont think has much to do with lack of people in deep space. I think its the following:
1.) PvE people are the majority. Deep space = PvP, therego, the majority won't bother.
2.) Of the people who do PvP, some hear "1 to 3 shot kills" and dont even other. Or they attempted it, and not knowing how to improve their situational awareness got waxed, never saw the guy who did it, and immediatly swore space PvP off henceforth.
3.) Other people who PvP, probably won't in space because theres no uber template and 80% composite to hide behind. I know people who get challenged to duels on the ground, who ask their antagonizer to /duel them inspace and they shut up for some reason.
Corran950
Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:04 pm
#25
Ducimus wrote:
>>However, 95% of the time I go to Deep Space, there's no one else there. Perhaps if the ISD were harder to take down, it would necessitate more people to come in order to attempt it.
>>
ISD/space station difficulty i dont think has much to do with lack of people in deep space. I think its the following:
1.) PvE people are the majority. Deep space = PvP, therego, the majority won't bother.
2.) Of the people who do PvP, some hear "1 to 3 shot kills" and dont even other. Or they attempted it, and not knowing how to improve their situational awareness got waxed, never saw the guy who did it, and immediatly swore space PvP off henceforth.
3.) Other people who PvP, probably won't in space because theres no uber template and 80% composite to hide behind. I know people who get challenged to duels on the ground, who ask their antagonizer to /duel them inspace and they shut up for some reason.
3.) I have said that to a few people that wereasking everybody at a starportfor a duel, it is quite funny how they ran off to ask someone else. 
SwordNMace
Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:15 pm
#26
Coran_Sienar wrote:The problem is that there's no reason to PvP. In Deep Space, the gunboats drop decent loot at times and that's nice, but you can get the same loot farming Tier 4 spawns in any other system. And if you do get a player kill, well, the FP are nice, but there's really no incentive in terms of loot or kill tallys to do so. There really needs to be a motivating factor and reward for engaging in PvP combat. The old byline of "PVP is the endgame" just doesn't cut it. That's like telling someone that work is its own reward and that they should forego the paycheck.I really like the player kill tally idea. I wonder how hard that would be to implement.
This is the single biggest issue with JTL right now. Sure, there's bugs and other things to worry about, but this lack of motivation is the black hole that's sucked the life out of space pvp. Something's got to be done. People need to be encouraged to get out there and fight.
I think the first thing that needs to be done is a removal of pvp decay. Flame me all you like, but each piece of equipment is essentially a one-off custom piece. Especially RE'd equipment. I'm sure there's a lot of pilots who'd pvp if they knew that there precious reward engine would remain intact. Removing the decay would be removing a huge disincentive to pvp.
Removing obstacles alone won't solve the problem, though. Some sort of reward system has to be implemented. A pvp leader board would probably be the easiest. One thing I think would be interesting is an bonus to loot or damage rolls for the faction that is winning the space war. For example, say the Rebellion is cutting swaths through the Imperial fleet, so they're salvaging more parts from the wreckage. They'd get a bonus to looting, be it more stuff or better stuff. Or, say the Empire holds the advantage in space. "Morale" increases for the pilots, they fly better and shoot a little more accurately. They'd get the damage increase. The devs could also give the winning faction a bonus to the faction points collected from pve kills, similar to the COA bonus or make faction perks cheaper.
I see a lot of cool ideas from a lot of people but no comments from the powers that be, and that worries me.
