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Thread: JTL PVP Balancing Idea

Corran950
Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:15 am
#1




It just dawned to be that JTL has been done up backward. What do I mean about this? Well all ships from the Star Wars universe are factory made, There is eceptions but for the most part they were all made the same way.


What made me relise this is last time i was out blowing things up with my guild mates taking out teir 3 ships a couple teir 4's showed up. they flew almost exacly like their lower teir cousins they just had better stuff loaded in the ships. This is very backward that the way it should of been done. The way combat should of been done would be to make all the ships be very simalar to each other stat wise, and make the AI harder the higher the teir is.


Another reason This wolud be a good change to the game. It would bring every body to the same level in PVP. The main reason that i do not PVP because ther isno equal ground, if a teir 2 pilotisfighting against a teir 4 pilot with both in the same ships the teir 2 pilot is at a severe disavantage unless the teir 4 is not at the controls. If the devs made jtl a bit more like my system the game would revolve more around the skill of the pilot rather than the equipment that he uses. Because even in the movies the empire had the advantage when it came to equipment but the rebels had the skill to use what ever they could get there hands on.


This is my opinions on how they could change JTL for the better:


Take the existing system and put it to the side, many good ideas are in there.


1. Starting with the AI they all have a very simalar flight style, like i said above the only reason they fly different is the type of gear they have loaded. To remedy this make at least 2 AI's for each teir fighter, one for fighters and one for bombers.


2. Make all ship chassis have simalar stats with others of same type, speed, manuverability, armor, etc. When a shipwright makes a chassis it would be more like droid engineers, For example putting together a tie fighter would require 1 Twin Ion engine, Light Armor Plate, Solar assisted reactor, etc. This would make all ships have a standard range of stats.


Examples:


Tie Fighters would have a speed of 1000 and PYR of 70 and light armor


X-Wings would have speed of 800 and PYR of 60 and medium armor


Y-Wings would have speed of 700 and PYR of 50 and heavy armor


Intercepters would have speed 1100 and PYR of 75-80 and medium armor


(sure lots of imperial pilots like this)


Now some of you are saying that how do we modify our ships stats? This would be done the same as before but insted of geting the whole component we get a subcomponent or 2 we could load into our ships. These subcomponents will work like components currently where they take up mass and energy


3. Weapons should be done like it is now, except that all weapons should do roughly the same damage. No im not crazy, and my name isn't shirly. Also there will be several other types of guns with different stats:


Laser cannon = standard laser cannon, mid ground in fire power.


Auto blasters = similar to the guns used by Jango Fett against Obi-Won in the asteroid field, high rate of fire but low damage and power usage but shorter range compared to laser cannon


Turbolaser = Reverse of auto blaster: low rate of fire, lots of damage, and power requirements with a long range.



This is all i could think of for the time being, please tell me what you think.


Edit: Ah ha, I knew i forgot something.




/Dons flack jacket and fire proof suit


/grabs fire extinguisher and pulls pin



I think im ready

Message Edited by Corran950 on 02-01-2005 04:39 AM



Corran Tristen
Master Artisan - Master Droid Engineer - Master Carbineer - Rebel Pilot 4/4/4/3
Corran DroidWorks {CDW} Reopening Soon (TM)
"If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater." Book - Firefly
- Help Control The Jedi Population, Have Your Jedi Spade Or Neutered.
FIREFLY SEASON 2: help transmit the signal



sumner
Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:41 am
#2

While I'm not 100% sure I do believe that the AI is somewhat tier based. When I would fight Tier I guys in tatooine space they would rarely work together to attack me, multiple ships would attack, but there would be no coordination between them, they would just shoot whenever they got a shot. Now the Tier V craft inDeep Space, on the other hand, do seem to exhibit some squad AI.When attacking b-wings I have noticed that A-wings will come in out of nowhere and harrass me, and often times they will try to drag me into the firing range of a corvette. At first i thought this was just coincidence, and where the battle took us, but on multipleoccasions I havefound myself in gun range when there were no vettes within 5KM at the start.


There is plenty of room for improved AI, but also think about what is going on on the other side, the server(s) have 100's of craft to run in each space zone, fighting at least you (and probably many more) plus working with the next server when the fight crosses back and forth over the server line, there is a lot going on, and doesn't allow for much overhead to make the npcs smarter.


I really like the ship system the way it is now, I think it is fine. I like the fact that if I don't want to use missiles, I can take out the launchers and but in better shields or armor, what ever I want. One thing I would change however, is to restric NPCs to the same rules as us, no more tier V Z-95's, they should have the same mass restrictions we do, and the have to beloaded with similar mass components. A Z-95 should be at most tier II. Same goes for the imp ships.


The weapons are pretty much how you described, as a MSW I can tell you I can build you a low energy low damage gun or I can build you a high damage gun that is going to require more energy.


hopefully you do not feel your extinguisher was required




o._.._[ggg]:...__________,_
[]ggg[c]gg[g][ggggggg]:(ggggggg) Otto Yardhand (ggggggg)
''.''''''''''''///_/''^=====///
_._,....///
Imperial Scout Trooper Officer, Captain of the VT-49 Decimator "Obliterator"


Corran950
Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:08 pm
#3

Oh not at all. All my ideas were for was to emulate a system like the X-wing fight sim games, i know shame on me. what i was invisioning for it was that the ships shouldnt be harder to damage the higher the tier, but to be harder to hit. With the weapons i totally agree with the system of customising your load outs for the missions at hand, its some of the other systems like engines on ties or x-wings just sounds weird replacing the whole thing.



Corran Tristen
Master Artisan - Master Droid Engineer - Master Carbineer - Rebel Pilot 4/4/4/3
Corran DroidWorks {CDW} Reopening Soon (TM)
"If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater." Book - Firefly
- Help Control The Jedi Population, Have Your Jedi Spade Or Neutered.
FIREFLY SEASON 2: help transmit the signal



TheDarkmoons
Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:09 pm
#4

There are several references to the X-wing using some hand-built parts, hence why Rouge Squadron sometimes has to use A-wings.




CRIXX [PHWOR!]-FARSTAR


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Corran950
Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:42 am
#5

I added a few comments



Corran Tristen
Master Artisan - Master Droid Engineer - Master Carbineer - Rebel Pilot 4/4/4/3
Corran DroidWorks {CDW} Reopening Soon (TM)
"If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater." Book - Firefly
- Help Control The Jedi Population, Have Your Jedi Spade Or Neutered.
FIREFLY SEASON 2: help transmit the signal



Corran950
Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:46 am
#6

Hmm I quess i didn't need these.


/puts away fire suit and fire extingisher.



Corran Tristen
Master Artisan - Master Droid Engineer - Master Carbineer - Rebel Pilot 4/4/4/3
Corran DroidWorks {CDW} Reopening Soon (TM)
"If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater." Book - Firefly
- Help Control The Jedi Population, Have Your Jedi Spade Or Neutered.
FIREFLY SEASON 2: help transmit the signal



Corran950
Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:41 am
#7

i realy thought i would have gotten more of a response.



Corran Tristen
Master Artisan - Master Droid Engineer - Master Carbineer - Rebel Pilot 4/4/4/3
Corran DroidWorks {CDW} Reopening Soon (TM)
"If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater." Book - Firefly
- Help Control The Jedi Population, Have Your Jedi Spade Or Neutered.
FIREFLY SEASON 2: help transmit the signal



Coran_Sienar
Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:53 am
#8

I agree with you to a large extent. But I still think the most pressing concern in JtL isn't the ships or AI, but the lack of the Galactic Civil War.


To give you an example of this, what do you think would happen if a lone X-Wing showed up in Dathomir space and blew away two squadrons of Tie variants in aStar Wars movie?


A) More of the same ships would appear so that the X-Wing could continue its rampage.


B) A Star Destroyer would appear with a full fighter complement. (BTW, the capital ships need missile launchers and tractor beams. It's rather easy to solo the ISD in Deep Space because the guns can't hit a fast, maneuverable fighter. A Star Destroyer should be sending up a virtual shower of proton torpedos and concussion missiles at any attacking fighter.)



Modus Sienar
Master Shipwright
Master Smuggler (Hope > Logic)
Aced all 9 Squadrons
quadpers0n
Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:43 am
#9

No, the star destroyer should not be impossible to solo, players consistantly miss this point. Is a rebel faction HQ on the ground difficult to solo?


The problem is not the ISD, the problem is the players do not consistantly defend the ISD. *WE* are the tie contingent responsible for defending that ship, it's not a PVE challenge. Having the ISD blow up any lone fighter defeats the purpose of having it there. I don't disagree with it having proton torpedos but people need to understand that it's just computer AI. A lone fighter will ALWAYS be able to solo the ISD no matter what the developers do, they need to get away from the backwards thinking that ruined the ground game by making everything veritable instadeathblow tanks, that kind of logic will not work in a twitch game. the only difference between players who can solo the ISD and those who can't is not knowing how the AI works.


However, I do agree there should be reproccusions for attacking it, if a system message went out to all Imperial pilot aces that the ISD was under attack when, let's say, lost it's shields, that would be a much better system to make the ISD more difficult. Furthermore I would think it would be something that would be easily done, although admittedly I'm not a programmer. Another way to make the ISD stronger is to eliminate the need for turret AI by allowing players to dock and man turrets there, I understand that would likely take alot of time to code.


Deep space is aPVP zone, attacking the ISD significantly should be akin to "ringing the PVP bell."The same applies for the rebel base. The reason players don't attack or defend the ship regularly I believe is because they load in the zone, do a /who, nobody is there so they leave. We need incentive to go, and one that doesn't depend on material wealth. Sending a tell to your rebel friends saying "hey i'm attacking the rebel base, come stop me" is a poor mechanic.


As for the topic at hand, the only thing I have to say I disagree entirely. The only AI improvement I think the game needs is to have gunboats in deepspace/kessel hunt you down instead of flying in straight lines. You can make minor improvements of course, I like the idea of different AI for bombers, but once you figure it out, what then? That is the inherent problem with a twitch based game and computer AI,you canchange/complicatehow they act, improve their aim and improve their stats, that's about it, once players learn it, it's over.


And your assertion that there's a world of imbalance preventing you from PVP'ing is utterly absurd. You realize that some of the lowest tier fighters have the highest turn values, critically important in PVP? You realize the #1 important trait to possess to make yourself sucessful in PVP now is aim followed by situational awareness? Trust me, you can PVP absolutely fine in a Tie LN with a fast lvl 3 blaster. Don't believe me? Try it, everyone is so concerned about 1 hit pvp and decay and all this other crap, just use one frigging ship slot as a junk pvp fighter, you'll do just fine. You won't be one shotting anyone, but if you have good aim you can kill people. Don't believe me? Go duel your friend with level 1 guns installed. Yes, there's going to be some disparity, but that's inherent in a level/skill based game like this. Asking for that to be changed is like asking for 80% of the game to be redesigned. I've been shot down with everything from a Y-Wing to a YT. If they can do it, so can you, there's no nebulous disparity preventing you from PVP aside from being uninformed and unwilling to take "risks."


The only real imbalance in current PVP though is the disparity between master level MP ships and the rest of the fighters in the game. If you want to make suggestions to really help the game out, beg a dev for shields that can withstand 4 or 5 hits that only fit on large MP ships.



-meeuki


lumpini
Coran_Sienar
Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:39 am
#10


I have to disagree with the Star Destroyer comment. They should be impossible to solo or else what's the point of the Empire building one? Can you imagine the salesman's pitch on that one?


"Well, it costs about 4,000,000,000 in adjusted credits and takes a crew of about 12,500 to fully man. There's a small problem in that a 400,000 credit A-Wing flown by one person can blow it away, singlehandedly. So, how many would you like to buy?"


It just doesn't make sense.


I do like the attack alert from Deep Space, though. However, without a real reward (in terms of kill tallys or perhaps something more tangible), how many people would really answer the call?

Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 02-01-2005 10:40 AM



Modus Sienar
Master Shipwright
Master Smuggler (Hope > Logic)
Aced all 9 Squadrons
Corran950
Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:47 am
#11






Coran_Sienar wrote:

I agree with you to a large extent. But I still think the most pressing concern in JtL isn't the ships or AI, but the lack of the Galactic Civil War.


To give you an example of this, what do you think would happen if a lone X-Wing showed up in Dathomir space and blew away two squadrons of Tie variants in aStar Wars movie?


A) More of the same ships would appear so that the X-Wing could continue its rampage.


B) A Star Destroyer would appear with a full fighter complement. (BTW, the capital ships need missile launchers and tractor beams. It's rather easy to solo the ISD in Deep Space because the guns can't hit a fast, maneuverable fighter. A Star Destroyer should be sending up a virtual shower of proton torpedos and concussion missiles at any attacking fighter.)




C) They would send in a lancer frigite or two withtheir complement of 6 fighters each (I think), closlyfollowed by an escort carrier with its compliment of 108 tie variants. The star destroyer is to valuable and/or ineffective to deal with a single squadron let alone a lone fighter.




Corran Tristen
Master Artisan - Master Droid Engineer - Master Carbineer - Rebel Pilot 4/4/4/3
Corran DroidWorks {CDW} Reopening Soon (TM)
"If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater." Book - Firefly
- Help Control The Jedi Population, Have Your Jedi Spade Or Neutered.
FIREFLY SEASON 2: help transmit the signal



Coran_Sienar
Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:51 am
#12

That's be nice, too. But there aren't any Lancers in the game right now and the Nebulon B's are little more than window dressing.



Modus Sienar
Master Shipwright
Master Smuggler (Hope > Logic)
Aced all 9 Squadrons
Corran950
Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:00 am
#13






Coran_Sienar wrote:

That's be nice, too. But there aren't any Lancers in the game right now and the Nebulon B's are little more than window dressing.






well you did say "in the movies".



Corran Tristen
Master Artisan - Master Droid Engineer - Master Carbineer - Rebel Pilot 4/4/4/3
Corran DroidWorks {CDW} Reopening Soon (TM)
"If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater." Book - Firefly
- Help Control The Jedi Population, Have Your Jedi Spade Or Neutered.
FIREFLY SEASON 2: help transmit the signal



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