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>>. Not much to learn there since its twitched based. You have a huge crosshair in front of your ship..just shoot within that area and you hit your target.
>>

There's alot more to it than this. Do you know how to do a barrel roll for example? Or even proper equipment selection in your ship vs your oppoents will have a huge impact. If you think this is a simple "point and click" thing your mistaken. If anything, Flying in space is less restricted than atmospheric flght so the type of manuevering your able to do is limited only by your imagination.


>>They just need to balance it out some. I think the biggest issue most ppl want to see fixed is the damage issue. Curve the damage some.
>>


Personnaly i think the biggest issue is theres no reason to fight at all currently. People need a reason to take to the skys besides just for the thrill. JTL currenly has little impact on the GCW at all. (well i take some of that bag, Deepspace is a really good faction farm and whoever controls that has the ability to make FPs at a faster rate to be able to buy more factional bases on the ground - or am i the only one who realizes this? *shrug*)



>>Not everyone can play all the time and when they do they want to last longer than a few shots in PVP.
>>

Reduce PvP damage further and what might happen is and all those people who do have time to play will have alot better equipment than you do. The advantage that equipment gives will start to have a greater effect on the people who don't have time to play alot.

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psikobunny wrote:

I agree with the consensus we established in the Pilot forum. Before any more Space PvP damage changes, Droid Programming needs to be examined, tweaked and debugged. I feel a lot of the battle duration issues can be fixed when Weapon Overload 3 gets fixed. When that happens, there won't be constant streams of firing, and damage taken from every stray shot. Even an overcharged Cap will need to be conserved, and shots taken when they count.

While Ramona's tone was harsh, she's pretty much right. If you want to survive longer, get better. The rules are different up there, and instead of begging for a change, maybe people need to try harder to get good at the game under the rules that exist, because people like that are out there. They fight with honor, and will pat you on the back when you beat them. Heck, I PvP in a Z95 headhunter, just so it takes me 5-6 shots. When I win, I know its because of skill.

Across the board damage reduction may make larger ships more survivable, but it will strip awaymost of thepotential for small 1 gun interceptors to have any fun. Damage reduction so you can last longer vs an Xwing or a Krayt heavy gunship means that fun little ships like Headhunters, Khiraxks, Awings, and TIE interceptors become useless.

The point I'm trying to make, for the Damage Reduction advocates, is that there are a lot of consequences to that sort of change you need to consider, not just the consequences that would make you happy. If Space PvP becomes cookie cutter, where everyone flies the same 3 ships because they are "the best" you'll just have the same problems and issues we have to havea Combat Upgrade to fix on the ground.

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Nice post... You made good points.

Not many ppl seem to be mentioning this so I think it should be brought up again.

Wpn overload 3. If you aren't using this you need to know what it does. Weapon overload programs are supposed to take more reactor juice, and more capacitor power per shot and give a boost to damage. Weapon Overload 1, 2 & 4 do this. And you get 25%, 50%, & 150% bonus in damage respectively. Weapon overload 3 however does NOT take additional reactor energy, takes LESS capacitor energy and gives a 100% bonus to firepower. This is seriously messing the system up because we have EVERY ship out there getting 100% firepower bonus.

Everyone can and does use this program. If you fix this you take pvp damage down by 50% right away, there will certainly be ppl that continue to use it but they will have to put aside mass to compensate for a beefed up reactor and capacitor. Right now they don't have to, they can even put in an awful reactor and capactior and still get the 100% boost in firepower because the program doesn't work properly.

Add that to the fact that using capacitor overload and reactor overload programs have no penalties (save taking a bite of armor) and you get flying cannons in the sky. The reason battles aren't fun is because the sytem does not force players to trade anything for firepower, they get everything + plus excessive firepower.

Fix wpn overload 3. Adjust reactor and capacitor overloads so they have a negative side. Possibly mess with cap to shield shunt, make is so cap is completely gone for 5 seconds or so. (Use cap to shield shunt, can't fire for 5 seconds basically)

• PvP damage reduction:Very good aurguments on this. Should there be a further reduction? Is it okay as is?One shot kills can became part of the whole fighting experience. Indeed, in the movies, large scale dogfights are fast and furious, like the Deep Space game is now. I do have a few issues for balance (see below), but how about this... Keep Deep Space damage the same, reduce all other PvP damage in open space. This should keep both type of players happy. Hardcore PvPers wil love Deep Space, and will HAVE to be on their toes for one shot kills. Casual PvPers and non-experienced PvPer can do Deep Space, and suffer no decay from a kill. Casual PvP players can also fly "overt" ot Spec forces: in narmal space and not fear a 1 shot kill with the further damage reduction...

• Droid Programs: These NEED to be fixed. This will go a long way to making PvP a better game. If a level 1, 2, and 4 program does something, and a level 3 program doesnt, thats a exploitable bug and not a feature. Using any exploit damages the game in space further, making the use of this bug a need instead of a tactical option. Weapon overload three also promotes the one-shot kill syndrome. Even two shots are better than one for a real dogfight challange. I Repeat, Droid programs need to be fixed as they are supposed to be!

• Mutliplayer ships: Currently, flying a PoB ship into PvP (and also PvE in most cases), is like flying a mutli-player coffin. A teir 5 gunship lasts loads longer than a players stocked nova. The falcon would have been toast in two hits by those TIES. Almosy any ship can destroy the "mighty" MP ships in the time it takes to down a TIE bomber...and the TIE bomber is more manuverable as well! MP ships are notoriously hard to aim and hit anything. The belief was, fighter = offense and movement and multiplayer ship = defense and slow steadiness. It's not, it's a quick death. Suggestions? Add the ability to add more componets like secondary shields and armor to PoB ships. A second capacitor? (i've posted to the pilots forum detailed ideas and workarounds about these issues...)

Baz Pseudopod

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Pseudopd wrote:

Alot of good points here, and i would bullet point several key statements:

• PvP damage reduction: Very good aurguments on this. Should there be a further reduction? Is it okay as is? One shot kills can became part of the whole fighting experience. Indeed, in the movies, large scale dogfights are fast and furious, like the Deep Space game is now. I do have a few issues for balance (see below), but how about this... Keep Deep Space damage the same, reduce all other PvP damage in open space. This should keep both type of players happy. Hardcore PvPers wil love Deep Space, and will HAVE to be on their toes for one shot kills. Casual PvPers and non-experienced PvPer can do Deep Space, and suffer no decay from a kill. Casual PvP players can also fly "overt" ot Spec forces: in narmal space and not fear a 1 shot kill with the further damage reduction...

• Droid Programs: These NEED to be fixed. This will go a long way to making PvP a better game. If a level 1, 2, and 4 program does something, and a level 3 program doesnt, thats a exploitable bug and not a feature. Using any exploit damages the game in space further, making the use of this bug a need instead of a tactical option. Weapon overload three also promotes the one-shot kill syndrome. Even two shots are better than one for a real dogfight challange. I Repeat, Droid programs need to be fixed as they are supposed to be!

• Mutliplayer ships: Currently, flying a PoB ship into PvP (and also PvE in most cases), is like flying a mutli-player coffin. A teir 5 gunship lasts loads longer than a players stocked nova. The falcon would have been toast in two hits by those TIES. Almosy any ship can destroy the "mighty" MP ships in the time it takes to down a TIE bomber...and the TIE bomber is more manuverable as well! MP ships are notoriously hard to aim and hit anything. The belief was, fighter = offense and movement and multiplayer ship = defense and slow steadiness. It's not, it's a quick death. Suggestions? Add the ability to add more componets like secondary shields and armor to PoB ships. A second capacitor? (i've posted to the pilots forum detailed ideas and workarounds about these issues...)

Baz Pseudopod

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on PvP damage reduction:

Honestly i feel it should take 2 to 3 hits to kill someone. (as opposed to 1 to 3 hits we have now), this is a very fine adjustment, and too much reduction will have a very profound effect. so it must be done VERY VERY CAREFULLY. That said, PvP damage is only Part of the issue. There are other things to consider like equipment.

Personnaly i feel it will always be hard to balance out ships in this game simply because of how equipment is made and created. For example A dedicated player will have no problem fitting in a 3600 to 3800 damage L8 blaster in addition to an 2900 to 3000 damge L7 blaster in a Tie advanced. Thats twice the firepower of a A wing, and a T/A is already *slighly* more manueverable than a A wing as it is already. (in reference to the stats on the pilot forum, ship faq). To me this highlights that reducing damage further or too much and the T/A just became that much better than the A wing. A wings redeeming quality at that point is its low silloutte, but T/A's will probably still be one shotting or damn near it anyway. While the A wing, will not.

My point is, to really achieve PvP balance there has to be a trade off between ships, and with our current part system, there really isnt much of a trade off at all with the right amount of Re Engineering. So balancing ships in PvP or addressing PvP damage reduction in general, might be a much wider subject than most people think it is.

Message Edited by UPA_INTIMIDATOR on 02-28-2005 02:54 PM

On droid commands:

You know what i would really like, is if we did away with them completely. My thought is if JTL used the energy maangement system from the Tie Fighter / X wing sim series, the game would be better off. It puts more into the hands of the pilot to manage their own ships, not waiting on a droid controller delay to spam the next shunt.

I believe Volvo is right. Space PVP is no where close to being fun. I was on my friends Nova MP ship in deep space.

(Stats on the ship)
Weapon 1 4523 max Damage
Weapon 2 4256.8 max Damage
Front/Back Armor 2433.5
Engine 98.9 YPR 62.3
Shields Front/Back 2433.4

We got shot 2 times by a IMP Tie Fighter that has only one gun on it and we got destroyed. They need to reduce the damage a player can do to another player in PVP cause much like the ground game, First person to attack is usually gonna be the winner. I hear everyone say you need to practice and get better and Space PVP alot. That doesnt matter its a first to attack is the winner and no matter how much you practice its all based off of who gets the first shot off. Ive seen a lot of Space PVP. The longest one ever lasted was about 6 seconds. Only reason it lasted that long was cause they both had a lag spike. Ducimus who cares if it took 30+ mins to PVP in space? Then you would be forced to be creative in taking out your target other than shooting once and thats it. Then most players would have to utilize all of their ships features and special moves to take the enemy out.

POB ships definitely need a defensive upgrade--the ability to soak anywhere from 3-10x as much damage--but as far as fighter vs. fighter, the current damage level is really close to ideal. Damage is low enough to see a bit of differentiation between fighter types, but not so low that A-Wing and Advanced pilots become invincible.

I recommend spending a lot of time overt and see how your battles go. It'll probably seem like one shot one kill for a while, but in my experience, the more a person PVPs in space the more they like the system.

By the way, I've seen 5 TIE pilots take 30 seconds to drop 1 great A-Wing pilot in open space. The other day it took three of us roughly 60-90 seconds to chase down another lone A-Wing pilot who made creative use of an asteroid field. Much 1v1 PVP takes anywhere from 1-10 seconds, sure, but plenty of it takes a lot longer--and if the longest battle you've ever seen is 6 seconds, I question either the breadth of your experience or the skill of the pilots involved.

Message Edited by TomoRainer on 02-28-2005 12:17 AM

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Ducimus wrote:
you know i just thought about it some more..

Droid commands are a serious problem.

They allow you to have your cake and eat it to. No trade offs.

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Most of them do have trade offs. Wpn overload 3 is bugged and the Freelancer commands need some attention.

Imperial Commands
1. Weapon overloads - These require more reactor energy to run the weapon, more capacitor per shot in exchange for more damage per shot. (Wpn Overload 3 is bugged)
2. Weapon Tuning - These require less reactor energy to run the weapon, less capacitor per shot in exchange for less damage per shot. (Who would want to do this anyway...)
3. Engine Overloads - Same as above really, takes more reactor juice and your engine performs better.
4. Engine tuning- less reactor juice for reduced performance

Freelancer Commands
1. Reactor Overload - Gives reactor boost for small bite of armor. (This needs to have a negative)
2. Capacitor overload - Gives Capacitor faster recharge/more capacity for small bite of armor. (Needs a big nerf bat.)
3. Cap to Shield Shunt - Trades capacitor energy into shield energy. (Haven't put a lot of thought into how to fix this but the boost to shields is VERY generous at level 4 with no decay to any items when used. Plus capacitors charge 4-5X faster than shields, that needs to be taken into account. Transfer 1000 cap should only equal 250 shields or something.)

Rebel Commands
All shield based commands. Not familiar enough with these understand how they really work. Mabye a rebel player can explain them in detail.

As you may have noticed the Imperial commands seem to be the adjustments for Weapons energy and Engine Energy, and the rebel programs handle shield energy. The freelancer commands are difficult to explain as they can be used to boost performance with no trade-offs at this time. If we fix WO3 and those programs things will become a lot more balanced.