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Thread: PVP in JTL isnt fun and more
xTekx
Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:54 am
#14
Duc, can I give you a cookie? You really know how to explain things well. lol... i tend to get lost in making the point. which is why i hate writing papers haha.. speaking of papers, i have one due tuesday.. grr..
Sadly i have to agree with your statement about the devs will probably give in. They have a history of doing that, so why would this be any different? Those who cry the loudest often win. And since we seem to be of lower numbers we would lose. If/when that day ever comes JTL will then be all about who has the best equipment, just like on the ground. Just wish people would realize that when they cry for a nerf.
HardwiredXMan
Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:16 am
#15
Problem I have with pvp in space first of all has nothing to do with skill or the way people think twitched combat should be like. What bothers me most in space is that (especially in deep space) when the music starts, all you know is that someone it attacking you...You don't know if it's a player or npc.....since you spent 50 hours in PVE leveling up to master, your initial reaction is that it's an npc ship headed your way.....
then when an npc ship arggo's you, the red dot starts blinking and you know immediately where the danger zone is and can take measures to adjust. Then even if you are caught in a position where you will catch a couple of shots from an enemy tier 5 ship, you at least survive long enough to get your butt out of trouble.
However, if it's a player shooting at you, then you have no chance. It doesn't matter if your the best pilot every to jump in a space ship.....there is no maneuvers you can possibly get off that will immediately get you out of the target reticle of a half decent pilot. If you do escape, it's more like due to the players bad aiming and not your manuevers.....the reason why I say this is because if a player is a reasonable distance away from you but still in weapons range, there is no trick in the book that you can do to survive. You are too far away to avoid him adjusting his aim to your ships heading....
See for JTL to be truely twitched based, it is simply just to slow. when I'm flying, it feels like I'm flyin through water. all maneuvers seem sluggish and takes way too long to do a half decent maneuver.
The only time you have an adavantage when your targeted is when the player is directly behind you and you can shift speeds combined with turning to throw his aim off, therefore making him miss.....but when it only takes 1 or 2 shots to kill someone, often times the person who gets to shoot first wins.
Now I don't want a game where it takes 30 shots to kill someone, but 1 or 2 is simply not acceptable. that is not a space battle at all. It's like a batter hitting a homerun off of every pitch thrown to him....it just shouldn't happen that easily.
The biggest problem that I probably have with 1 or 2 shot kills is that your shields mean nothing. See the stronger the shields are of a ship, the more firepower you need to have to get through them.....a shield is supposed to protect you.....but 1 or 2 shots and your dead means that a shot goes right through your sheilds and hits your ship in a vulnerable area and boom you blow up.
In all other twitched based games or FPS, yes there are 1 hit kills possible...and for you to constantly do that takes experience and skill....but on the norm, it takes many shots to kill a target. I have played lots of space sims and space games that don't have 1 hit kills on every ship that you attack, pvp or pve and it was still fun.
What I propose is that it should take about 4 - 5 hits to take out sheilds or scaled appropriately depending on if you use blasters, ion cannons or distupters. currently it doesn't matter what kind of weapon you use, your dead in 2 seconds...that's not even enough time to recognize if you are arggo'd by an npc or a player, let alone make any maneuvers to compenstate.....
Regardless what anyone says, pvp in space is not perfect or even close and it's not pvp. It's more like target practices....you don't even have to make any special maneuvers as the attacker to kill someone....often times you get them in your sites first and head straight towards them and start shooting.....did you have to do a loop, corkscrew, hammer manuever or any other kind of move to fly yourself into position to get a shot on your target.....you have to in pve against tier 5's, but not in pvp....
SO NO, PVP IS NOT PERFECT IN JTL, IF IT WERE, THEN YOU WOULD SEE JUST AS MANY PLAYERS IN SPACE PVPING AS THERE ARE ON THE GROUNDREGARDLES IF THERES A REASON TO OR NOT.
xTekx
Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:17 am
#16
oh where to start.. so many things wrong with your argument...
i have a lot more to say, but don't have the time since i have to leave for work.. maybe i'll continue later depending on where the debate is at.
HardwiredXMan wrote:
However, if it's a player shooting at you, then you have no chance. It doesn't matter if your the best pilot every to jump in a space ship.....there is no maneuvers you can possibly get off that will immediately get you out of the target reticle of a half decent pilot. If you do escape, it's more like due to the players bad aiming and not your manuevers.....the reason why I say this is because if a player is a reasonable distance away from you but still in weapons range, there is no trick in the book that you can do to survive. You are too far away to avoid him adjusting his aim to your ships heading.... -- ok.. you're assuming a player that is either overt or in DS is not hitting his "find closest player button." I can guarentee you that anyone, and I mean evereyone, that goes out looking for pvp, will not be caught un aware. if you're caught unaware while overt or in DS, then that's your fault. yes maybe a different color dot could be used, or a bigger dot. But you can pick up an overt anywhere from 2500m out to almost 4km... That is plenty of time to react to him and be prepared.
See for JTL to be truely twitched based, it is simply just to slow. when I'm flying, it feels like I'm flyin through water. all maneuvers seem sluggish and takes way too long to do a half decent maneuver. -- I don't think the game is too slow. seems like a good speed for me.. maybe its your ship?
The only time you have an adavantage when your targeted is when the player is directly behind you and you can shift speeds combined with turning to throw his aim off, therefore making him miss.....but when it only takes 1 or 2 shots to kill someone, often times the person who gets to shoot first wins. -- your last statement here about who shoots first wins. again this is extremely FALSE. just because you shoot first does not mean you will win. You still have to hit that person. Head to head passes you're both firing, so who should win if first shot wins? It comes down to skill plain and simple. Shooting does not equal hitting. there's a difference, and if you can't figure that out then don't fly overt or go to DS.
Rebelcapt
Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:38 pm
#17
I agree that the PVP systemin space is as close to perfect as it can get,largely due to the fact that it is FPS ranther than RPG which makes it easier to work. The problems with PVP in space and DS being deserteed has nothing to do with the way PVP is fought, its that it server NO puspose. I mean, rebels kill the SD and they get some credits, nothing really happens as a result. Outside of DS nothing happens. Also, JTL doesnt affect the ground game at all, why should people take to the skies in defence of one ship when their homes , cities and businesses on the ground are being threatened by enemy troops and bases. There is just no advantage to it other than some fun. IMO what we need in space is what we have on the ground as far as the GCW, bases. We need space stations and ships in normal systems like naboo that can be attacked and dare i say borded, and the side more victorious to reap the benifits both in space and on the ground.
Went way off the original topic to which i have to say, PVP isnt not fun just chalanging to a point where the illprepared will not be able to succed.
Message Edited by Rebelcapt on 02-26-2005 10:17 AM
Iceman-KG-
Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:14 pm
#18
I just can't seem to FIND anyone to shoot when I'm overt. I just manage racking up fp without finding any live targets.
Kaleborn
Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:54 pm
#19
*grumble* ... and around and around we go. IMHO JTL pvp is far from perfect in pretty much every aspect. Content, storylines, mission depth, viability of large ships, the waffling the devs seem to be doing between making JTL "looty/farmy" vs a simpler Quake/Unreal model, the unforgiving and discouraging nature of the PvP environment to 'average' players...
You name it. It's broke, or at the very least 'underpowered' to use a gaming term.
Okay, first we should steer away from the "twitch game = instagib" mentality. Instagib was a game-style checkbox in Unreal. Along with Hardcore, normal, etc. Didn't matter what mode you played, you were still playing a twitch game.
We can have fights in JTL that last 2 shots, 10 shots or 30 minutes. You are still playing a twitch game. "Fast paced"? Maybe, maybe not. Of course no one wants a 30 minute 1 on 1 fight. (If landing 4-5 or 6-10 shots takes you 30 minutes then you probably ain't as good as you thought, lol 
) .
) .Content. Well we all agree there ain't much of it right now. But what "Content" are we talking about? Sorry, but you can give me all the badges, rewards, faction points, planetary control privliges, jawa beer and /cheers you want. For me the "content" of JTL pvp is one thing only : Being in combat dogfighting vs another player. It's not the rewards that will keep me coming back. Yes rewards or leaderboards or whatever are great and help buff the fun-level of the game environment, but they are not the reason I'm here. It's the actual fighting darn it! Yes, actually being IN combat with my opponent is what gives me the most thrills. Not sitting in an empty zone, or waiting/hoping/pleading for my victim to come back after repairing, hypering, droid-commanding back up etc.
I WANT my opponent (and myself) to be more survivable so that fights last longer. Some people thing making combat take a bit longer is "dumbing down the game" or submitting to the "lowest common denominator of player"... how so? Assuming the devs are smart enough to balance shield shunts, weapon power etc...if fights took a wee bit longer how bad would that be? The better player, duo or team would rise to the top anyway.
Everybody who PvP's in JTL needs to be spending more time on the playing field in the thick of combat. Instakills are robbing the victor of dogfighting time as much as their victim.
Now I have yet to see or participate in large-scale PvP encounters in JTL. If someone has done so can relate what the gameplay was like that would be much appreciated. I'm thinking of at least 7-10 players per side, multiple engagements. How long did each engagement last? What ships were used and how successful was each ship type (fighter vs bomber vs multi)? How much downtime was there for players vs actual fight time?
Anyway, I just don't see what the compelling benefit is to anyone--victor or victim--of"Instagib" ship to ship combat. Certainly not in the content-deprived, rewardless JTL environment we have now. I think we can all agree something needs to be done to encourage heavier, slower ships to join in combat.New and interesting combat scenarios need to be introduced to the game. I'm in full agreement that better "stuff" to do wouldgo a long way to helping pvp in JTL.
I would think anyone involved in JTL pvp right now should be falling over themselves to encourage players of all skill levels to join in.Someone mentioned the low percentage of twitchy PvP players that would inhabit an otherwise traditional MMORPG game world. If we are doomed to that reality, if a good portion of the PvP we will experience is through scarce, "strangers passing in the night" encounters than I REALLY want those encounters to last a while longer. If Elite Player A is out looking for a fight and stumbles across "Noob Player B", why not have both their ships be more survivable so the fight lasts longer? Once Noob Player B dies there may not be a chance or incentivefor them tomeet each other again. In the absense of anything else meaningful to do in a PvP sense, why not have the "meat and potatos" portion last 15-30 seconds instead of the more probable 2-4 seconds? Even if Elite Player A is a swell dude and offers to teach and train young Noob Player B the fine art of PvP combat, if they still shoot to kill they will both be spending vastly more time waiting for respawn/repair/hyper/re-droid command stuff.
Okay this got rambly. ButI seriously think we are beingrobbed of some fun engagements with the current PvP damage model of JTL. If nothing else, the current framework is so unforgiving to any non-fighter ship types, that alone is a red flag that the system needs an overhaul. I have to think that somewhere between the PVP and PVE damage models is a happy place where we can all gather, have some fun, and blast the living bejebus out of each other at a reasonable pace...
HardwiredXMan
Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:22 am
#20
xTekx wrote:
oh where to start.. so many things wrong with your argument...
HardwiredXMan wrote:
However, if it's a player shooting at you, then you have no chance. It doesn't matter if your the best pilot every to jump in a space ship.....there is no maneuvers you can possibly get off that will immediately get you out of the target reticle of a half decent pilot. If you do escape, it's more like due to the players bad aiming and not your manuevers.....the reason why I say this is because if a player is a reasonable distance away from you but still in weapons range, there is no trick in the book that you can do to survive. You are too far away to avoid him adjusting his aim to your ships heading.... -- ok.. you're assuming a player that is either overt or in DS is not hitting his "find closest player button." I can guarentee you that anyone, and I mean evereyone, that goes out looking for pvp, will not be caught un aware. if you're caught unaware while overt or in DS, then that's your fault. yes maybe a different color dot could be used, or a bigger dot. But you can pick up an overt anywhere from 2500m out to almost 4km... That is plenty of time to react to him and be prepared.
Yes if your looking for pvp and pvp only, you will have players targeted and ready to go and probably end up jousting...but that's only 1/3 of being overt in space. Everyone who goes overt in space is not looking to "ONLY" pvp. Sure being overt means you will have to pvp and I understand that...but what I'm talking about is the other aspects of pvp. When your engaged with npc ships and most of the time surrounded by them.....if a player comes along and catches you like this, your dead no matter what....in most cases your dead and didn't even see the shots.
If your just loading into a sector and a player is near, your dead....nothing you can do (happend to me many times). Yes I know there should be a 60 second invulnerability timer like there is on the ground.
If you are looking for faction points, then again this falls into the situation where your surrounded by npc ships as I stated above.
Simply put, there are 3 aspects of pvp.
1) overt players looking for pvp
2) overt players looking for faction points (but still aware of being subjected to pvp)
3) overt players engaged and surrounded by npc ships and a player comes along and engages in pvp
Only in situation 1 do you have a chance to survive, becuase you are strictly looking for pvp and when your a master pilot like myself, you don't even worry about npc ships because they can't do much harm to you and you can "ALWAYS" get away.
However, the other 2situations is a bit more complicated....with these, you can and will most likely get ganked and never see it coming....even if you are keeping aware of other players....by the way, you would have to constantly keep hitting your target player button to keep fully aware...but if your engaged in combat with npc ships, hitting your player button is a major inconvienance, because you want to hit your target npc or closets enemy button. You simply can't protect yourself at all from players when engaged with npc ships....now if there's only one or two npc ships, you may or may not be alerted to a player appraoching, but if there's more (like fighting an aggressor and 2 interceptors and a bomber), you are worried about that aggressor and the bomber getting behind you letting off missiles on you.
See the last 2 situations happen way more often then the first one because there are never many overt players in space. I mean the threat level when being overt in space is like 9 for npc ships and 1 for player ships due to the the shear number of npc ships to player ships. while overt in space I will run into 100 npc ships before I run into a player ship....so the odds of actually pvping with another player is very low, but when it does happen, it's easy to have your guard down and when you die in 1 or 2 shots when you still have full shielding....that kind of pvp simply isn't acceptable no matter what way you want to put it.
Now I do believe that it should be possible to kill a player in 1 or 2 shots....but that should boil down to skill since it is supposed to be twicthed based and not be the default way of players dying. the default 1 or 2 hit deaths takes the twitch out of twitched based because you don't have enough time to twitch at all. It usually goes like this.....Player A is shooting a player B. Player B hears or sees a shot. Player B sees his ship blow up from third person view.....Player B clones, Player B looks at his combat log and see that he was blown up by Player A with 1 shot because Player B was dogfighting 5 npc ships with another 5 npc ships withing 2000 meters. Player B wonders how come his shields with 2433 energy didn't absorb any shots, but yet the shot just by passed the players shielding and Armor and blew up Player B's ship.
See this is what I'm talking about....in no situation whether your aware or not, should a players ship blow up in 1, 2 shots or less than 5 seconds. Also, even if you have gotten out of a sticky situation before and survived an assualt from a player....I'm willing to bet it's the exception and not the norm....if you get attacked 50 times by a player, I'm willing to bet that you died withing 5 -10 seconds 40 of those times....that simply is not acceptable for anyone's enjoyment....hell, I don't even enjoy killing another player with one shot....PVP is more about the competition and the little battles within the overall battle between the two players (or more).....it's about me out thinking my opponent. It's about defeating my opponent with my skill and not a default one shot kill. in this situation you are officially In PVG (player vs game code) instead of player vs player. No skill involved whatsoever.
See for JTL to be truely twitched based, it is simply just to slow. when I'm flying, it feels like I'm flyin through water. all maneuvers seem sluggish and takes way too long to do a half decent maneuver. -- I don't think the game is too slow. seems like a good speed for me.. maybe its your ship?
Actually, the game can use a bit of a speed boost to everything in my opinion....I just findthat my reaction time and reflexes are faster than the game....I'm used to playing twitched based FPS and the typical FPS keeps you on edge and the pace is so fast that you usually die because of mistakes....in JTL, it's so slow that you die because you can exectue stuff fast enough....you don't die from mistakes, you die from not being able to do things fast enough. From the speed at which a command executes related to the time you pressed the button....to the very inaccurate targeting reticle (i've never seen a FPS or twitched based game with as much overshooting as this one)....I mean when I press left then 2 seconds later my ship yaws left and then I press right and 3 seconds later it yaws right because it hasn't finished yawing left yet....it all boils down to slowing a person's reactions down. See I'm the kind of person that I have a million solutions in my head before I engage in a situation (I come prepared for anything I do)....that limits me having to do a lot of adjusting to my opponent....it leaves my opponent very little room to surprise me.....believe me, surprise is the number one killer in FPS or twitched based games. So when I find myself sitting there waiting on a move or command to execute, then I feel it's too slow and my reactions and reflexes mean absolutly nothing.....at this point, its the game that dictates my skill and not my skill at manipulating the game.
So regardless to what anyone says, other than theaiming (which I can live with)....I don't think JTL requires much skill at all. it's not the moves you can do with your ships, it's not the strategy you employ, it's not how you use your surroundings to aid you, it's not how you manipulate your opponent or outsmart them.....it's about a game that is limited to simulation rules but with a twitched based system that doesn't allow you to fully make use of the twitching aspect. All you have to do is be the first person to hit the other person and you win....so what happened to the skill here.
The only time you have an adavantage when your targeted is when the player is directly behind you and you can shift speeds combined with turning to throw his aim off, therefore making him miss.....but when it only takes 1 or 2 shots to kill someone, often times the person who gets to shoot first wins. -- your last statement here about who shoots first wins. again this is extremely FALSE. just because you shoot first does not mean you will win. You still have to hit that person. Head to head passes you're both firing, so who should win if first shot wins? It comes down to skill plain and simple. Shooting does not equal hitting. there's a difference, and if you can't figure that out then don't fly overt or go to DS.
Man, what part of it only takes 1 or 2 shots don't you understand!!!!!! If it took more than that, sure the first person to shoot might not win....but "IT ONLY TAKES 1 OR 2 HITS TO KILL A PLAYER IN PVP" Let me shoot at you at 3 shots per second and see if I don't hit you 9+ times in as much as 5 seconds.
Like I said, it's dependent on how bad the persons aim is, not your skills in forcing him to miss you, the ships are simply too slow compared to the rate at which weapons fire....so impossible to force a player to miss you....it's due to their own bad aiming that determines if they miss or not....and since a 5 year old kid can aim in this game with ease and can fire a weapon at 3 shots per second, it does boil down to whomever gets the first pull of the trigger.....put it like this....assuming that we both can control a sub machine gun to at least get the bullets in the general direction of each other....if I pull my trigger first, it will rattle you even more and you will be more concerned to get out of harms way rather than stay calm and shoot back with confidence that you won't get hit by my bullets but still hit me...especially when you know that I have an automatic 95% chance of killing you with one shot if one and only one shot connects out of a hail of 200 bullets....so what's the odds of you getting hit from a bad aimer.....and the odds go up the better my aim is, they don't go down because you can move out of the way my bullets...this is how JTL is....it's focused on targeting and not manuevers like spacecraft and aircraft are supposed to be.
So again, it's all about who can get their shots off first.....
a lot of people seem to think that JTL takes skill to play....I'm sorry, there is no skill involved at all in PVP for JTL except "MAYBE" a littlebitin the aiming department due to aiming with different ships, but even that is one sided a bit. plain and simple the person who can target the quickest and get their shots off first, wins. This is only because it doesn't take enough shots to kill a person.....if it took more shots to skill a person, then even if you do get me targeted first and start hitting me first, I still have enough time to survive your shots (with ship damage) but still have a chance to turn the battle in my favor by out manuevering you and hopefully or skillfully put some holes in you until you go out in a ball of flames...but with so little hits needed to kill a target in pvp, the first person that is hit (and usually the first to shoot hits) will die and never get a chance to make what I would call a comback and have a chance of winning. See the difference in being skilled and not needing skill is that it doesn't take skill to shoot20 shots and hit one time and kill your opponent, even a blindfolded person can shoot that many shots in your general direct and hit you....but it does take skill to shot 20 times and hit 15 times to kill your opponent.
i have a lot more to say, but don't have the time since i have to leave for work.. maybe i'll continue later depending on where the debate is at.
If I start shooting 3 seconds before you do....that's 9 shots I get off before you probably even have me targeted, otherwise you would have been shooting earlier. In those 9 shots, are you saying that I can't hit or kill you when it only takes 1 or 2 hits to kill anyone in PVP and we are flying head on. the only way I would lose this fight is if I just missed all 9 shots and you hit me with your first few shots.
Second problem that you just pointed out.....combat should not beabout jousting....head to head is plain and simple jousting...we are not knights on horses hoping to knock the other off his horse....we are supposed to be dog fighting.....never once in any movie, book or whatever have you seen where either planes or space ships jousted. They had dog fights where it was about manuevering your ship to get into the best position to kill your target....if everyone jousted, then all it would take is a split second for you to get a missile lock, fire off 2 missiles and veer off and your target would be dead (providing that the game was like it should be, missiles stronger than guns and guns not bypassing or completely destroying shields in one shot)....there is a reason why real pilots and even star wars pilots did not joust.....jousting equals dead, dead, dead. Go find me a space battle or airplane battle where they jousted.....you manuever, get behind your target and destroy them....that takes skill, jousting doesn't take any skill, it's simply about who targets, attacks and hits first that wins in a joust.
Also, in order to joust, you both need to be heading towards each other....but if I come up behind you, to the side of you, underneath you, evenin front but above or below you at an angle(whether you see me or not), you will never ever ever ever get a chance to joust. The only way you can joust anyone is when both of you see each other from a distanceand both head towards each other...if you are deploying that tactic, i'm sorry, I never want you as my wingmate cause we would surely die if I am to depend on you having my flank.....
End of regulation, buzzer goes off....sorry! game over, you lose.
Message Edited by HardwiredXMan on 02-27-2005 02:34 AM
Ducimus
Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:50 pm
#21
Reading through this thread, and others like it, to all those who complain about PvP damage, i would LOVE to sit them through 2 hours of Planetside.
Maybe then, when they see how fast and rough death and dying in PvP can really be in an MMO, they wouldn't complain so much
Wishful thinking, i know.
Maybe then, when they see how fast and rough death and dying in PvP can really be in an MMO, they wouldn't complain so much
Wishful thinking, i know.
xTekx
Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:42 pm
#22
HardwiredXMan wrote:
Yes if your looking for pvp and pvp only, you will have players targeted and ready to go and probably end up jousting...but that's only 1/3 of being overt in space. Everyone who goes overt in space is not looking to "ONLY" pvp. Sure being overt means you will have to pvp and I understand that...but what I'm talking about is the other aspects of pvp. When your engaged with npc ships and most of the time surrounded by them.....if a player comes along and catches you like this, your dead no matter what....in most cases your dead and didn't even see the shots.
- if you go overt to get fp in space then that's the risk you take. nothing can change that. If you don't want to die at the hands of another player then don't go overt. that's it. if i'm in a dog fight it doesn't matter if i'm surrounded with NPC's. Player comes first because of the threat level to them. NPC's can do damage, but not at the rate of a player.
If your just loading into a sector and a player is near, your dead....nothing you can do (happend to me many times). Yes I know there should be a 60 second invulnerability timer like there is on the ground.
-this has never happened to me. I've never seen it happen to anyone either. not saying it can't happen, but i find the chances of this happening in the current JTL game extremely unlikely. maybe in DS or Kessel. but that person would have to be flying around the hyper in point for a long time most likely.
If you are looking for faction points, then again this falls into the situation where your surrounded by npc ships as I stated above.
-again, if you go overt then you take the risk. it is your job to look for other players.
Simply put, there are 3 aspects of pvp.
1) overt players looking for pvp -correct.. i'm this way all the time...
2) overt players looking for faction points (but still aware of being subjected to pvp) yes, i get fp in space all the time. but i'm always aware of who's out there.
3) overt players engaged and surrounded by npc ships and a player comes along and engages in pvp -again, they should be more aware of there surroundings.
Only in situation 1 do you have a chance to survive, becuase you are strictly looking for pvp and when your a master pilot like myself, you don't even worry about npc ships because they can't do much harm to you and you can "ALWAYS" get away.
However, the other 2situations is a bit more complicated....with these, you can and will most likely get ganked and never see it coming....even if you are keeping aware of other players....by the way, you would have to constantly keep hitting your target player button to keep fully aware...but if your engaged in combat with npc ships, hitting your player button is a major inconvienance, because you want to hit your target npc or closets enemy button. You simply can't protect yourself at all from players when engaged with npc ships....now if there's only one or two npc ships, you may or may not be alerted to a player appraoching, but if there's more (like fighting an aggressor and 2 interceptors and a bomber), you are worried about that aggressor and the bomber getting behind you letting off missiles on you.
-I am constantly hitting my "find closest enemy player" button. if I dont' do that and I get ganked unaware then that's my fault and no one elses. I should have been more aware. just this morning I was helping a friend with a mission, we were in the middle of killing ties spawning during an escort mission, i hit the button every 5-10 seconds, suddenly just after I killed a TF, bam, overt appears on my screen, i yell into vent overt and i'm off to get him. simple as that. just because you're inNPC dogfight doesn't mean you have to lose your situational awareness of what else is out there. and yes I do have my "find closest player" button binded on my JS. if people don't choose to bind it where they can hit it very easily, then that's not my problem.
See the last 2 situations happen way more often then the first one because there are never many overt players in space. I mean the threat level when being overt in space is like 9 for npc ships and 1 for player ships due to the the shear number of npc ships to player ships. while overt in space I will run into 100 npc ships before I run into a player ship....so the odds of actually pvping with another player is very low, but when it does happen, it's easy to have your guard down and when you die in 1 or 2 shots when you still have full shielding....that kind of pvp simply isn't acceptable no matter what way you want to put it.
-yes, i agree the chances of finding an overt player in space is very low. but it doesn't matter how many hundreds of NPC ships I run across that 1 overt player is my number one target. I could be fighting 5 aggressors but that player is now the one i'm after. maybe i'm the only one to think that way, but if i see the overt and then continue with the aggressors and get ganked, then that's my fault again. that overt player has much higher threat index then aggressors.
Now I do believe that it should be possible to kill a player in 1 or 2 shots....but that should boil down to skill since it is supposed to be twicthed based and not be the default way of players dying. the default 1 or 2 hit deaths takes the twitch out of twitched based because you don't have enough time to twitch at all. It usually goes like this.....Player A is shooting a player B. Player B hears or sees a shot. Player B sees his ship blow up from third person view.....Player B clones, Player B looks at his combat log and see that he was blown up by Player A with 1 shot because Player B was dogfighting 5 npc ships with another 5 npc ships withing 2000 meters. Player B wonders how come his shields with 2433 energy didn't absorb any shots, but yet the shot just by passed the players shielding and Armor and blew up Player B's ship.
See this is what I'm talking about....in no situation whether your aware or not, should a players ship blow up in 1, 2 shots or less than 5 seconds. Also, even if you have gotten out of a sticky situation before and survived an assualt from a player....I'm willing to bet it's the exception and not the norm....if you get attacked 50 times by a player, I'm willing to bet that you died withing 5 -10 seconds 40 of those times....that simply is not acceptable for anyone's enjoyment....hell, I don't even enjoy killing another player with one shot....PVP is more about the competition and the little battles within the overall battle between the two players (or more).....it's about me out thinking my opponent. It's about defeating my opponent with my skill and not a default one shot kill. in this situation you are officially In PVG (player vs game code) instead of player vs player. No skill involvedwhatsoever.
-that is the most illogical statement i've EVER seen someone make about flying in JTL. Skill is everything in JTL pvp. If you dont' have any then you WILL die. if I have to explain that to you then you'll never understand it. PvP in space is ALL about the thrill of the moment to me. what will my opponent do? what should I do? how will I react to him? that is what I love about it. the competition. if it lasts 5 seconds and I won, then I was better then that person. I did everything I could to avoid his blasts. that's skill. I did everything I could to get on his tail. that's skill....... i have done quite a few duels with my alt against my guildies who fly xwings and awings. My alt is flying an interceptor. his level is 3322. i have a lvl 4 engine and level 7 weapon. we have duels that last anywhere from 30 seconds on up to 2-4 minutes. and no they are not using low level weapons. each of them have level 8 weapons equipped on their ship. why the dogfights last so long is because we are all good pilots. we have flying skills. we know how to dodge and juke. it usually ends when one person makes a silly mistake and the other takes advantage of it.
Actually, the game can use a bit of a speed boost to everything in my opinion....I just findthat my reaction time and reflexes are faster than the game....I'm used to playing twitched based FPS and the typical FPS keeps you on edge and the pace is so fast that you usually die because of mistakes....in JTL, it's so slow that you die because you can exectue stuff fast enough....you don't die from mistakes, you die from not being able to do things fast enough. From the speed at which a command executes related to the time you pressed the button....to the very inaccurate targeting reticle (i've never seen a FPS or twitched based game with as much overshooting as this one)....I mean when I press left then 2 seconds later my ship yaws left and then I press right and 3 seconds later it yaws right because it hasn't finished yawing left yet....it all boils down to slowing a person's reactions down. See I'm the kind of person that I have a million solutions in my head before I engage in a situation (I come prepared for anything I do)....that limits me having to do a lot of adjusting to my opponent....it leaves my opponent very little room to surprise me.....believe me, surprise is the number one killer in FPS or twitched based games. So when I find myself sitting there waiting on a move or command to execute, then I feel it's too slow and my reactions and reflexes mean absolutly nothing.....at this point, its the game that dictates my skill and not my skill at manipulating the game.
-if that is happening to you then you have problems with yoru game or JS or mouse. I don't have that problem and i've never heard anyone else say they have that problem. when I throw my JS to the left, my ship banks left at that same instance. maybe you have your settings way off on your JS sensitivity or JS deadzone. you might want to check that because as far as i'm concerned JTL reaction time and speed is fine for me.
So regardless to what anyone says, other than theaiming (which I can live with)....I don't think JTL requires much skill at all. it's not the moves you can do with your ships, it's not the strategy you employ, it's not how you use your surroundings to aid you, it's not how you manipulate your opponent or outsmart them.....it's about a game that is limited to simulation rules but with a twitched based system that doesn't allow you to fully make use of the twitching aspect. All you have to do is be the first person to hit the other person and you win....so what happened to the skill here.
-using your surroundings is another skill to employ. that's why this is a MMORPG. we have an environment. we have distractions. we have a whole galaxy with planets, and houses, and food, and politics, and expressions in this game. this is pretty realistic for a fantasy universe. so for someone to use there surroundings and then not call it skill is a slap in the face to them. half of skill is knowing what's out there and using things to your advantage. if you're a TKM/ranger and you're fighting pvp on the ground against someone who doesn't have terrain negotiation and you're losing and want to get away, what do you do? run up a hill! using your environment to your advantage. it can happen on the ground and it can happen in space. like I said earlier it's you're job to be aware of what's around you. if your enemy is flying away from you into an asteroid field and you don't like the asteroids then don't follow, he's most likely going to use them to his advantage.
-on the first person to hit wins... yes that is usually what happens in a flying game. in this game if you get hit you take damage to something. that all affects your ship. basically you should have zigged instead of zagged. its all about skill to avoid being hit first. that's where you seperate the good pilots from the bad pilots.
Man, what part of it only takes 1 or 2 shots don't you understand!!!!!! If it took more than that, sure the first person to shoot might not win....but "IT ONLY TAKES 1 OR 2 HITS TO KILL A PLAYER IN PVP" Let me shoot at you at 3 shots per second and see if I don't hit you 9+ times in as much as 5 seconds.
Like I said, it's dependent on how bad the persons aim is, not your skills in forcing him to miss you, the ships are simply too slow compared to the rate at which weapons fire....so impossible to force a player to miss you....it's due to their own bad aiming that determines if they miss or not....and since a 5 year old kid can aim in this game with ease and can fire a weapon at 3 shots per second, it does boil down to whomever gets the first pull of the trigger.....put it like this....assuming that we both can control a sub machine gun to at least get the bullets in the general direction of each other....if I pull my trigger first, it will rattle you even more and you will be more concerned to get out of harms way rather than stay calm and shoot back with confidence that you won't get hit by my bullets but still hit me...especially when you know that I have an automatic 95% chance of killing you with one shot if one and only one shot connects out of a hail of 200 bullets....so what's the odds of you getting hit from a bad aimer.....and the odds go up the better my aim is, they don't go down because you can move out of the way my bullets...this is how JTL is....it's focused on targeting and not manuevers like spacecraft and aircraft are supposed to be.
-aim is everything! if you can't place where you want your shots then you're not going to hit. sure you can fire nonstop at the oncoming ship, but if its against me i'm going to see what you're doing side slip to the left and snap off a shot or two at you cause you're not juking! again, check your settings if you can't dodge out of the way of things. i can.
-you also contradicted yourself. here i'll highlight your statements in red.. the first part is correct..
So again, it's all about who can get their shots off first.....
a lot of people seem to think that JTL takes skill to play....I'm sorry, there is no skill involved at all in PVP for JTL except "MAYBE" a littlebitin the aiming department due to aiming with different ships, but even that is one sided a bit. plain and simple the person who can target the quickest and get their shots off first, wins. This is only because it doesn't take enough shots to kill a person.....if it took more shots to skill a person, then even if you do get me targeted first and start hitting me first, I still have enough time to survive your shots (with ship damage) but still have a chance to turn the battle in my favor by out manuevering you and hopefully or skillfully put some holes in you until you go out in a ball of flames...but with so little hits needed to kill a target in pvp, the first person that is hit (and usually the first to shoot hits) will die and never get a chance to make what I would call a comback and have a chance of winning. See the difference in being skilled and not needing skill is that it doesn't take skill to shoot20 shots and hit one time and kill your opponent, even a blindfolded person can shoot that many shots in your general direct and hit you....but it does take skill to shot 20 times and hit 15 times to kill your opponent.
-again a contradiction in your argument. in the last paragraph you said a "5 year old can aim." here you just said maybe a little bit of skill in the aiming department? which one do are you going with? I just said aim takes skill.. what you dont' need skill to do is pull the trigger. anyone can shoot.. not anyone can hit what they're shooting at. unless it's a barn at 5 feet.
If I start shooting 3 seconds before you do....that's 9 shots I get off before you probably even have me targeted, otherwise you would have been shooting earlier. In those 9 shots, are you saying that I can't hit or kill you when it only takes 1 or 2 hits to kill anyone in PVP and we are flying head on. the only way I would lose this fight is if I just missed all 9 shots and you hit me with your first few shots.
-if you start shooting before I do all i'm going to do is start twisting and weaving and avoiding all your shots till I get to you, then i might turn and get on your tail, or i may just fly right past you and continue on and turn farther out.
Second problem that you just pointed out.....combat should not beabout jousting....head to head is plain and simple jousting...we are not knights on horses hoping to knock the other off his horse....we are supposed to be dog fighting.....never once in any movie, book or whatever have you seen where either planes or space ships jousted. They had dog fights where it was about manuevering your ship to get into the best position to kill your target....if everyone jousted, then all it would take is a split second for you to get a missile lock, fire off 2 missiles and veer off and your target would be dead (providing that the game was like it should be, missiles stronger than guns and guns not bypassing or completely destroying shields in one shot)....there is a reason why real pilots and even star wars pilots did not joust.....jousting equals dead, dead, dead. Go find me a space battle or airplane battle where they jousted.....you manuever, get behind your target and destroy them....that takes skill, jousting doesn't take any skill, it's simply about who targets, attacks and hits first that wins in a joust.
-hmm.. what would you call Me flying my xwing right at you from 2k out, and you turnign to face me and flying to me? its called the Head to head pass. no, were not on horses jousting with lances. but anyone who's done flying sims knows what this is. this is a very important part in the skill department to not get hit since this is the easiest place to die. since all you have to do is line up on their ship and pull the trigger because they're flying in a straight line to you. if that person doesn't move out of the way, then bam they're now severly crippled. that's why half the battle is getting past the head to head pass.and yes that is a problem with head to head passes.. because you're flying in a some what straight line to them getting missle locks is easier. but if i'm doing big arcs and still comign towards you, i'd like to see you get a missle lock on me then.
Also, in order to joust, you both need to be heading towards each other....but if I come up behind you, to the side of you, underneath you, evenin front but above or below you at an angle(whether you see me or not), you will never ever ever ever get a chance to joust. The only way you can joust anyone is when both of you see each other from a distanceand both head towards each other...if you are deploying that tactic, i'm sorry, I never want you as my wingmate cause we would surely die if I am to depend on you having my flank.......
-ok, again, if i'm overt and someone gets behind me from when I could have targeted them from over 2k out then yeah, no head to head pass. and I would then deserve to die becausee I was not aware of my surroundings. but in this game if i'm flying along and I hit my button to find overts and it shows one pop up over 2k out I'm going to turn to him. if he see's me he will turn towards me. and there you have your head to head pass. this was the most common theme in XvT or XWA when flying online. if that overt doesn't see me and I can slip in on his tail then he's dead plain and simple. if he see's me from 700m out and starts juking then no, we won't have the head to head pass and it will be all about turning and juking at that point. and about being my wingmate. if my wingmate can't things like this then most likely my wingmate will die and leave me all by myself. the people i fly with understand things like that. which is why we're ruling space on our server. no offense, but you sound like an easy kill to me.
End of regulation, buzzer goes off....sorry! game over, you lose.
TomoRainer
Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:04 am
#23
Kaleborn wrote:Now I have yet to see or participate in large-scale PvP encounters in JTL. If someone has done so can relate what the gameplay was like that would be much appreciated. I'm thinking of at least 7-10 players per side, multiple engagements. How long did each engagement last? What ships were used and how successful was each ship type (fighter vs bomber vs multi)? How much downtime was there for players vs actual fight time?
Starsider has weekly large-scale PVP events. One engagement we had about 40 Rebs vs. 30 Imps, but normally it's around 15 vs 15 or so. We've had six or so to date, none of which took place in Deep Space; they tend to be RP-based, centered around blockades of Kessel, Rebel takeovers of the Tatoo system and whatnot. The best one was the week-long event in Tatooine that started and ended with a wing of fighters on either side and saw small-scale engagements over the entire week. Players were devoted to getting up in space, going overt, and making a stand over Tatooine for their chosen faction.
These battles are extremely fun. They tend to take a minute or two for each engagement, and in the hour-long designated battle time we might have 3-4 separate engagements. 5 minutes of dogfighting in an hour might not seem like much, but we also do a lot of scouting to determine the enemy's location and numbers, their maneuvers and tactics, etc., so the end result is the bulk of the hour is spent on combat-related activity. After you vape the enemy's wing it might take them a few minutes to get back in system, but a good skirmish leaves most of your pilots dead or in need of repairs as well, so there's plenty of regrouping and scouting to be done even during the "downtime."
The battles themselves are some of the greatest moments of my SWG playing time. They're almost indescribable. What with most of us pounding on the "target next enemy player" button every second, you tend to see them coming from about 2.7km out--then it's a low-speed closing to 1km or so, at which point the wing breaks to engage at maximum speed. From that point it's total anarchy, a minute or two of extreme danger where even the most skilled pilot is more than likely to be sent to the nearest space station.
These fights are almost all between TIE Advanceds and Oppressors vs X-Wings, with a few Interceptors, A-Wings, and Y-Wings and the occasional Dunelizard or Krayt. Heavy fighters tend to die first, but this is far from an ironclad rule.
Sometimes one side will come out with light casualties, 10-25% losses against an equal-sized force, but often the casualties on the winning side are 50-90%. Numbers play into this, but I've seen a force of extremely skilled pilots take down a significantly larger wing of enemies. My favorite engagement involved a scrum between roughly 30 Rebels and 25 Imperials: the Imperials took an early drubbing, and though it's extremely difficult to tell how things are going when the combat is that ferocious, at one point I'd say we were down 5-12 or 7-15 or so, but the remaining TIEs ended up eliminated the Rebel force with only two or three of us surviving. The screen scrolled more "Channel information complete" messages from dying pilots than I've ever seen.
This is getting long, but I highly, highly recommend trying to put together something like this on your server, or coming over to Starsider sometime and checking it out. Good contacts on either side are Naithan for the Imperials and Joken or Cody for the Rebels. I'm convinced mass space PVP will change your opinion of it for the better--there is nothing that compares to the hour-long adrenaline rush of knowing that, just around that asteroid field, you may run into a full squad of enemy pilots. And once you finally engage them.. it becomes almost hypnotic.
(As a side note, POB ships in large-scale combat are a massive disappointment. They die nearly instantaneously, being unable to dodge fire or absorb more than a handful of shots, with the end result being 3-5 players are out of the battle within seconds, having made no appreciable impact on its outcome. This is one area that I agree needs drastic improvement, and the sooner the better.)
Message Edited by TomoRainer on 02-28-2005 01:08 AM
Ramona_Garcia
Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:15 am
#24
If you get wasted in 3 seconds you forgot to fly not straight, or had bad luck, simple as that. I fly a TIE Interceptor, and I last big battle I was hit several times,. One salvo took out my front shield and front armor, yet I survived. No time to get repairs. Next battle, hit to the not armored front again, took out my booster, but I still survived.
I have been in numerous battles, been wasted in a few seconds a couple times, but I usually last some time even if I get blown up in the end. I saw a friend dodge fire from 4 pilots on our side for about a minute last battle.
In short, if you get killed too fast then, sorry, you need to learn to fly, not whine about the system.
Ramona_Garcia
Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:18 am
#25
Oh, yeah, multi player ships need a boost desperately. They are nothing more than sitting ducks, the one part of the system that needs an improvement. They could do with stronger shields, for one, like 10 times the average shield strength (Mass 250K, to avoid them getting used in fighters).
TomoRainer
Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:34 am
#26
Kitten was awesome in that battle, Ramona. I've got the feeling she's going to be a real pain in the upcoming weeks.