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Thread: An attempt at reasonable pricing JerGo Spacecraft Sales Ship Pricing/Resource Info. NDA Lifted
Diorchas
Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:23 am
#209
I still have yet to see one person who can explain why expecting to sell a finished product at the cost of the resources used to build it is being "greedy."
This isn't about greed, it's about fair market value. You want proof? You bring me the necessary resources in-game and I'll build the ship for free. You see, it's not about money. It's about being fair. If you expect ME to provide the resources, ME to provide the time used to GET those resources and get to Mastery, then you're going to pay a reasonable price to do so. If you eliminate my investment in the process then I have no need to charge you.
Please, oh PLEASE, tell me how that is being greedy.
nefarious2
Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:25 am
#210
DingoBoi wrote:
what is funny is to see people who don't know the value of their resources nor their time.
I can see creature organics being the price they are, but for anything you can get with a harvester shouldn't be that expensive. It takes almost no time to get 2 million units of resources. Yes it may take you an hour or two to find the good % spot, but after that you don't do anything. They only overhead you have is the maintanence on the harvesters.
And for the fact that "once business gets going and you need more resources" If I am going that good, I have friends who drop harvs for me and so I still pay almost nothing for the resources.
If you argue that resources are worth Xcpu then why should anyone be bothered at being a crafter at all? Why don't we all get harvs and mine everything and sell it to one another.
nefarious2
Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:50 am
#211
DingoBoi wrote:
How is this not clear?
I'm not saying that it isn't clear, I'm saying that the price of resources are so out of whack that most everyone is accustomed to buying things at 5cpu. I don't think that when the impemented this system they took into account the greed factor of the players and they had imagined, either everyone mining what they need, or people selling them for around 1cpu. If this was the case then most people would be able to get a decent ship without spending an arm and a leg for one.
I know that it is supply and demand and that won't change, but those should be more of the exeption rather than the rule. The only thing I would change if I was a dev was to add a broader spot for all resources and that would also help devalue resources back to a reasonable level.
I was part of a resource guild that was helping to try and get the prices of resources back down, the max price we ever sold anything for was 3cpu, but most of the guild members got greedy and took off stating they could make more selling them for 5-6cpu and thus negating what we were trying to do as a guild, and we were still making money faster than we could spend it.
MoreCowbell
Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:22 am
#212
I find it funny that a Vibro Knuckler that takes 85 resources and sells for 5k is reasonable (thats almost 60cpu), a T-21 Rifle that uses 781 resources and sells for 50k (65 cpu) is reasonable,but a starship that takes thousands of resources selling for a fraction of that on a resource level is gouging. If starships were being priced on the level of weapons, armour, and food you'd be looking at millions for a ship. I fail to see why 5-7 cpu for a starship is being greedy or unreasonable.
Not to mention that those three are factory-made items while starships are almost 100% HAND MADE (unless they changed at the last minute to make the components factory-made). That means instead of putting a bunch of resources in a factory and pressing start, a shipwright has to sit and craft each chassis and each component by hand. Shipwright is the ONLY crafting profession that is 100% at the keyboard. And they're being greedy for wanting a decent return of the time investment sitting at a keyboard grinding out generators and capacitors and shields and blasters and ion cannons and armour panels andmissile launchers and countermeasure launchers and engines and chassis because you don't want to have to pay INCREDIBLY EASY TO MAKE CREDITS for that time?
Who's being greedy again?
Diorchas
Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:45 am
#213
MoreCowbell wrote:I find it funny that a Vibro Knuckler that takes 85 resources and sells for 5k is reasonable (thats almost 60cpu), a T-21 Rifle that uses 781 resources and sells for 50k (65 cpu) is reasonable, but a starship that takes thousands of resources selling for a fraction of that on a resource level is gouging. If starships were being priced on the level of weapons, armour, and food you'd be looking at millions for a ship. I fail to see why 5-7 cpu for a starship is being greedy or unreasonable.Not to mention that those three are factory-made items while starships are almost 100% HAND MADE (unless they changed at the last minute to make the components factory-made). That means instead of putting a bunch of resources in a factory and pressing start, a shipwright has to sit and craft each chassis and each component by hand. Shipwright is the ONLY crafting profession that is 100% at the keyboard. And they're being greedy for wanting a decent return of the time investment sitting at a keyboard grinding out generators and capacitors and shields and blasters and ion cannons and armour panels and missile launchers and countermeasure launchers and engines and chassis because you don't want to have to pay INCREDIBLY EASY TO MAKE CREDITS for that time?Who's being greedy again?
Thank goodness... another voice of reason.
I think the problem is the daunting number attached to the ships. Weapons can sell for 60cpu because the final price is still small. Ships cannot escape a high price tag. The only question is how "high".
There is a reason that grind resources sell for 1cpu and high quality non-organics sell for 3-6. Anyone who has tried to find a good mining spot for good resources knows how hard that can be. It's very time consuming. IN the same time it takes someone to place harvesters a combat character can earn well over 100k.
It's unreasonable to expect shipwrights to charge below market value for their product. Hopefully the shipwrights actively undercutting the market will run out of resources quickly and the price will stabilise at a fair level.
Takiwa
Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:21 pm
#214
I tried to sell speeders for what it cost me and that didn't work. People were "undercutting the market" I did not look at it like those guys need to stop selling so low, thats not a businessmens/womans attitude instead I said How can I cut my production costs. I Must start mining my own materials. Therefore I did and then when I sold for the same price others were charging I was making a good ammount of money, and it was way lower than 5 CPU.
Most people here are certainly on two sides of this issue left and right we could call it.
As it has been remarked upon people are overcharging on materials. 1-3 star materials are not hard to find using available tools like SWGCRAFT.COM, It takes next to no time to track resources, if its taking you longer than an hour to find a good spot your not doing something right, or not using what SWG offers miners. Hell I am doing it and I barely mess with my extractors other than a once a day check for % of material, maint, and power. I top off and go make cash fighting.
Now the problem I have with this entire discussion is a person referring to FAIR MARKET VALUE. There is nothing fair about marking up price per unit to 10 times what it costs you to make/harvest. .5 CPU cost selling for 5 CPU at the vendor is 10X's what it cost you to mine that.
And I am so sick of hearing the time is compared to some elite playing a certain high mission blah blah,
ok I can make 300k in three hours running missions, that doesn't mean my time is worth 100k/hour, because there is cost associated with making that 100k/hour such as, weapon replacement, armor replacement, buff costs, speeder repairs.
You see there is cost associated with making 100k/hour.
I couldn't even tell you more than average buff prices for me is 15-20k nonguild doc, thats a 3 hour buff, at least 10k in swoop repairs in three hours use, since my armor cost an arm and a leg thats probably taken 80k worth of damage based on price of the total set and each item deteriorating about 1-8%, and about 10k of weapon damage I would say in about the same time.
So I would say to make 300k/3hours it costs me about 120k which means my real profit is around 180k/3hours or 60k/hour, so I should charge people 60K/hour for my time, plus my shuttle tickets which is the same doing anything so we can call that even.
Now if I have 9 Harvestors running the same resource It doesn't take me even 20 minutes to check empty top up etc all my harvies, so now we are down to 20k on top of 9 harvestors worth of material which has been running for 24 hours minimum since my last visit.
Not matter how I look at it my cost is still per cpu not more than .75, and double price is 1.5cpu thats 100% profit, now if you want to add in the five minutes for building the schematic that gets us to about 5k based on the above 60k/hour that my time is worth thats 1k/minute, so the five minutes (and I am being generous here) is worth 5k. so fair prices would be something like this
lev 1 ship 5k resources x 1.5CPU+ 5k for time = 11,250 and thats over 100% profit mining the materials yourself and paying you for your time 60k/hour.
lev 2 ship 15k resources x 1.5 CPU + 5k for time = 27,500 and thats over 100% profit mining the materials yourself and paying you for your time 60k/hour.
lev 3 ship 30k resources x 1.5 CPU + 5k for time = 55,000 and thats over 100% profit mining the materials yourself and paying you for your time 60k/hour.
lev 4 ship 60k resources x 1.5 CPU + 5k for time = 110,000 and thats over 100% profit mining the materials yourself and paying you for your time 60k/hour.
lev 5 ship 80k resources x 1.5 CPU + 5k for time = 125,000 and thats over 100% profit mining the materials yourself and paying you for your time 60k/hour.
lev 6 ship 170k reources x 1.5 CPU + 5k for time = 260,000 and thats over 100% profit mining the materials yourself and paying you for your time 60k/hour.
Now the above pricing is making 100% PROFIT off self mined materials
Anything more than this is greed As I see it.
Again to answer the statements about fair market value...
Your getting ripped off if your paying 5cpu or more, and passing that cost on to a consumer because you are getting ripped off is rude, greedy, and unethical, not to mention stupid of you for allowing yourself to get ripped off and for them for buying it. Now for those uncaring folks that really want a ship they will pay anything charged them anyway, but that doesn't mean it's right. It also doesn't mean someone is UNDERCUTTING THE MARKET. That would be to charge one half of the above prices and take an additional 5k off, That would undercut the market.
I would request no arguement over the above post its as factual and mathmatically based as possible.
I know you miners are making 5 or more CPU for materials, and people are simply overpaying you or you are price fixing.
Its that simple.
Your time isnt worth as much as you think it is.
You (miners selling at these prices) are causing galaxy wide inflation.
You all can make a difference, talk to your friends tell them to stop charging soo much, start talking to guildmates tell them the same thing.
I know that this will not happen, why because people will not release the greed that makes dollar signs in there eyes.
Typical I want syndrome, there might be some 5 year olds playing but the rest of us should be mature enough to realize this and stop it, but we wont.
The economy has only gotten worse and will get worse. This economy is based on nothing and because of the lack of regulation this will only get worse.
I use the economy as little as possible and I realize that when I do use it I am overpaying.
To end this on a positive note at least you all know how BADLY your getting ripped off from ACKEW, and these others...
Flame away.
Takiwa
Message Edited by Takiwa on 10-27-2004 10:33 PM
Diorchas
Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:39 am
#215
Your post is nonsense, Takiwa. Inflation isn't caused by crafters. It's caused by the huge amounts of money generated by combat missions. People charge what they do for resources because that is what the market value is. It's simple supply and demand.
If I was being greedy I wouldn't be offering to make free ships for anyone who brings me the resources to do so. Selling ships for the cost it takes to make them (as judged by the free market value for those resources) is not greed. It's fair. Yes, it takes less than 1cpu to mine things. But the market has determinedthe value ofmined resources. Don't blame me for it. Blame the people who have set the market value: the consumers. Anyone who sells a finished product for less than the net value of the resources used to make it is undercutting the market. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Message Edited by Diorchas on 10-28-2004 03:42 AM
BrotherDavius
Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:30 am
#216
This is for all the shipwrghts in here.
How many x-wings could you make with no parts in them with 1 million resorces?
Also how is a shipwright who mines his own resorces under cutting the market, he will make the same amount of cash as you do but he can charge less, think about:
You shipwright Abuy 1 million units of resorces to make averge x-wings, how much would it cost you to buy that much 1-4 million right?
Nowshipwright Bmines it to build the same type of x-wing,how much would it cost him to do that about 300k-400k right.
So you see shipwrightA has to charge more but shipwright B dose not it is as simple as that.
DingoBoi
Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:44 am
#217
doesn't anyone here understand 'opportunity cost'? You are devaluing your resources selling them below market average. Please sell me your resources at those costs.. I'll be happy to buy it all.
BrotherDavius
Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:50 am
#218
DingoBoi wrote:
doesn't anyone here understand 'opportunity cost'? You are devaluing your resources selling them below market average. Please sell me your resources at those costs.. I'll be happy to buy it all.
But if you are mining your own why would you have to sell it at a market price? He is not buying the resources so he is not using as much cash.
Takiwa
Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:21 am
#219
DingoBoi wrote:
doesn't anyone here understand 'opportunity cost'? You are devaluing your resources selling them below market average. Please sell me your resources at those costs.. I'll be happy to buy it all.
Dingo in this case Opportunity cost is:
The ability toR@pe every buyer on materials by severly overcharging per unit of resource.
MARKET AVERAGE is:
The systematic overcharging by people and or companies of resources and claiming profits of 1900-2600%+ profit PER unit
.
You are trying to take advantage of a guy thats not doing this for greed so you can sell, and or make ships with those low cost materials and still sell them at your 5-7 CPU advertisement price, and make more money.
Greed is endemic here. It makes me sad to be Human.
And to top it all off, this is afterall a game.
As to the response from the other guy about my last post, and not understanding this and that, you show me your math, put up or.... what is the rest of that phrase...Oh well. And Inflation is caused by the first person to sell a resource at more than 500% profit, and then balloons from there. The fact is you can supplement an income from crafting with missions, I am not sure if this is intentional or not, but charging 1900-2600% profit PER UNIT OF RESOURCES... thats anything between 5-15CPU, IS OVER INFLATION.
Bottom line is if you don't like his prices ignore, them. If you don't like the fact that he is ruining your percieved get rich quick Idea then stop posting and play more, after all your wasting time being here. You should be grinding.
Takiwa
DingoBoi
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:14 am
#220
Yes, this is a game. In this game we run virtual business. The point of a business, is to make profit.
If you want to treat your crafting profession as a hobby, that's fine.. but don't claim you are running a business when your business is 'charity'.
FragRock-Creatures
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:21 am
#221
Buyer Beware
Note:
After you pay for the Chasis blueprints, you need to still take those to the Chasis dealer who essentially builds the ship, but for a fee of 15k.
So make sure you not only have the SW's price covered but the chasis's dealers too!