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Thread: Concerning the Pro's of Forced PvP Mastership......
Slarus wrote:
I never said that there are no griefers, yes the game has some, but you keep saying that any pvp player that happens to attack a non pvp player is a griefer WICH IS VERY WRONG. Give me proof, Tell me exactly how a person can tell a non pvp player from a pvp player in a pvp zone, Give me proof!!!
Show me where I said ALL PvPers where griefers? The rest of you post is the dribble you have been trying to tell us from day one, oh no one buys it. We know there are griefers out there, and the Devs gave them the ultimate power, the ability to control advancement, you know cause your gonna do it, that is why you defend those griefers so, by trying to pawn off the word and make anyone who says there will be griefing liars. I am not here to give you proof I told you it happened in Beta there is your proof, it happened in beta and there is no reason it won't happen here. People WILL search for folks on that mission and harass them and because it is in a PvP zone everyone in that zone and every PvPer will get blamed, flamed and subjected to extreme hatred. PvP is gonna kill this game as it almost did with UO and as it does to Legacy II.
How can the so called griefer be griefing in a pvp zone where ppl can shoot at other ppl. How can he be stopping a persons fun in an area where shooting at each other is the norm in that area. So again, you have no clue what the term griefer means. And the devs did not make griefing part of this game, you did by thinking it is.
It is griefing because as you most certainly know that there WILL be people who go into that zone looking for others on that mission, period not to PvP but going after master mission pilots.
So think hard now. In pve when you flying along headed to a mission, and then suddenly your attacked by an npc. he shoots at you chasing you left and right, and then kills you. Would you call the npc a griefer? You answer would be something like there is no difference and that dieing to a npc was that the ai was just a little to strong. Well guess what, its the same as if a pvp player was shooting at you. Fron dieing from a npc you learn to get up and try again and the same is if you died from a pvp event.
So get the word griefer out of your head and really look what is in front of you.
You'd love for everyone to pretend that word doesn't exsist, but the truth of the matter is, you go into a zone to fight other players that is one thing, but you go into a zone to prevent other players from doing a mission that is griefing. I never said it would be easy to to tell the two types apart, but just because you can't tell a PvPer from a griefer doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. Intent is the key, and it is easier to tell then you think. I know when someone is flying around looking for a fight or flying around looking to harass. A PvPer might if, you send a tell or broadcast a message saying your here for the master mission, break off and leave you, but a griefer will say "I'll pwn you n00b" and keep blasting away. It isn't impossible to tell who is who but it can be done. I just hope I am not on your server as I can take a guess as to which group you fall into. You are so offended by the very exsistance of the word griefer, makes ya wonder.
I rest my case.
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Actually, you said players are completely unimaginative and can't outsmart a simple AI. And yes, you are giving people too much credit. Being smart and having intelligence are two very different things.
Woah, i did not say that ppl are completly unimaginative and cant outsmart a simple ai. I said that a person cab be caught offguard from a tuff npc. Get your info straight.
So what is it, are ppl smart enough to do a mission in a pvp zone or not, can they plan out there attack and see if they can work together with friends to finish the mission. I really think so. Now do you want to admit that ppl can do it?
Being smart and having intelligence enough to do thoughtout things are two completely different things. You are the one saying that players are just as dumb as AI (even though you said that the AI was as smart as the players, but that's just semantics). Can you honestly not see the difference here?
Again where are you getting that im saing ppl are as dumb as the game ai. Im not, so stop putting words in my mouth AGAIN.
Or maybe if the devs put the mission in a pve area you would see alot more of these tier 5 ships, but i dont think you would like that.
Again, these Tier 5 ships are in Kessel, are you really sure you have done these missions?
I have done the missions, i just never stoped to see what tier they where. Thanks for letting me know what tier they are now.
You really have to stop saying that ppl are dumb.
Why? It's safe to assume that they are. If you create something that is supposed to be used by the masses, it's always smarter to assume that they are idiots and give very comprehensive instructions, than to assume that they are smart.
Your on your own on this one, If you want to think that way, go ahead, But its your own downfall.
Above you say it means nothing to get 7.5millexp, and now you say you havent tried this. How do you know that getting the exp is not the alternative way of getting the master title?
Because it wasn't during beta. People tried that then. I'm only fairly sure now, because I can't actually test that statement until I have got JTL myself. It is HIGHLY unlikely that they would have changed this without mentioning it in any of the patch notes.
Maybe they didnt put in the patch notes since it wasnt tested yet, As you said, we dont know if ppl have tried to just get the exp, and we probably will have to wait.
I did fight in kessel during the pvp weekend and i had some fun. I got into a battle with a person in there that lasted about 1-3 min, i kept on his tail and destroyed him, then 3 of his buddies came along and started to attack me, i did quiet well evading 2 of the playerslong enough todestroyed the 3rd befor the 2 killed me.
Four people? That's the vast extent of your "large scale JTL PVP experience"? Try it again with 15+ people and tell me if you can multi-task that well.
No i can fight in big groups, my point was that i did well in a pvp area where it was 3 agenst 1( i dont count it as 4 agenst 1 because i killed the one enemy befor the other 3 arived).
TheRealXur wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Slarus wrote:
You'd love for everyone to pretend that word doesn't exsist, but the truth of the matter is, you go into a zone to fight other players that is one thing, but you go into a zone to prevent other players from doing a mission that is griefing. I never said it would be easy to to tell the two types apart, but just because you can't tell a PvPer from a griefer doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. Intent is the key, and it is easier to tell then you think. I know when someone is flying around looking for a fight or flying around looking to harass. A PvPer might if, you send a tell or broadcast a message saying your here for the master mission, break off and leave you, but a griefer will say "I'll pwn you n00b" and keep blasting away. It isn't impossible to tell who is who but it can be done. I just hope I am not on your server as I can take a guess as to which group you fall into. You are so offended by the very exsistance of the word griefer, makes ya wonder.
I never said that there are no griefers, yes the game has some, but you keep saying that any pvp player that happens to attack a non pvp player is a griefer WICH IS VERY WRONG. Give me proof, Tell me exactly how a person can tell a non pvp player from a pvp player in a pvp zone, Give me proof!!!
They can't, that's what this entire argument is about. PvE players shouldn't be there in the first place and there would be no problems.
Message Edited by TheRealXur on 11-02-2004 03:04 AM
TheRealXar you are the only otherperson here (besides me)that has admited saying that we would not know, Thank you.
Forced, or otherwise coerced PvPing shouldn't happen. PvE players should be able to enjoy the game as much as PvP players without having to step on eachother's toes.
Now, I've come to not care about multiplayer ships or the super special space zone, because kessel should be enough and I don't have any in game friends to enjoy the ship with. What I'm concerned about is the linear fashion of JTL missions. Right now, a player has no choice but to be slowly lead into Kessel, where the missions will eventually end and the player is expected to get blown up over and over in PvP (and never see any colors in his/her HAM except black.)
I think that space mission terminals need to be added to the game, so the PvE space game doesn't end for people not willing to deal with the Master level challenges; and so soloists will still have something to do.
Naquiel wrote:
Actually, you said players are completely unimaginative and can't outsmart a simple AI. And yes, you are giving people too much credit. Being smart and having intelligence are two very different things.
Woah, i did not say that ppl are completly unimaginative and cant outsmart a simple ai. I said that a person cab be caught offguard from a tuff npc. Get your info straight.
No you didn't. You said that fighting an AI and a player waspretty muchthe same. Ergo: players are not able to outsmart the AI and do imaginative things.
So what is it, are ppl smart enough to do a mission in a pvp zone or not, can they plan out there attack and see if they can work together with friends to finish the mission. I really think so. Now do you want to admit that ppl can do it?
Being smart and having intelligence enough to do thoughtout things are two completely different things. You are the one saying that players are just as dumb as AI (even though you said that the AI was as smart as the players, but that's just semantics). Can you honestly not see the difference here?
Again where are you getting that im saing ppl are as dumb as the game ai. Im not, so stop putting words in my mouth AGAIN.
Oh really now? Time to quote the book of you again:
"...im saying that the devs that program the AI has done a good job of making the npc's really close to what other players do, and i wouldnt be surprised if they got there ideas from watching players from the game to enhance the npc AI."
"Well lets see, ppl run in shooting, so do npc's. Some ppl keep running around wile shooting, wait the same as npc's. PPl will come up and use specials on you, but then agin so do npc's, the fact is the npc ai in the game is really not that different than players. Npc's will attack you if your an enemy, they will run from you when there about to die, just like a regular player.Npc'smay be dumb, but they act alot like a regular player."
"Second, NPCs lacks unpredictability, players do not." <---- My statement
"I dont think so, i have seen groups of npc's that would have 2 shooting from the back ground, 2 melee attacking up close and swithch off to running away to dropping the gun and attacking with a melee weapon. They sure act like alot of ppl i know when fighting. And up in space, npc ships do chase you like a regular player can, they are good to if your not watching there friends." <---- Your reply.
Or maybe if the devs put the mission in a pve area you would see alot more of these tier 5 ships, but i dont think you would like that.
You really have to stop saying that ppl are dumb.
Why? It's safe to assume that they are. If you create something that is supposed to be used by the masses, it's always smarter to assume that they are idiots and give very comprehensive instructions, than to assume that they are smart.
Your on your own on this one, If you want to think that way, go ahead, But its your own downfall.
I might be on my own on this one, but then again: Why do people have troubles understanding instructions? Simple: Because people overestimate the intelligence of the general populace. Expect that people are dumb and write your instructions according to this, and things will be much smoother. Same thing here, don't expect that people will be prepared for the area and the missions just because the option exists. That's just folly.
Above you say it means nothing to get 7.5millexp, and now you say you havent tried this. How do you know that getting the exp is not the alternative way of getting the master title?
Because it wasn't during beta. People tried that then. I'm only fairly sure now, because I can't actually test that statement until I have got JTL myself. It is HIGHLY unlikely that they would have changed this without mentioning it in any of the patch notes.
Maybe they didnt put in the patch notes since it wasnt tested yet, As you said, we dont know if ppl have tried to just get the exp, and we probably will have to wait.
Ah, but since we both don't know if the option for this exists or not, do you realize now that your argument here was completely pointless?
I did fight in kessel during the pvp weekend and i had some fun. I got into a battle with a person in there that lasted about 1-3 min, i kept on his tail and destroyed him, then 3 of his buddies came along and started to attack me, i did quiet well evading 2 of the playerslong enough todestroyed the 3rd befor the 2 killed me.
Four people? That's the vast extent of your "large scale JTL PVP experience"? Try it again with 15+ people and tell me if you can multi-task that well.
No i can fight in big groups, my point was that i did well in a pvp area where it was 3 agenst 1( i dont count it as 4 agenst 1 because i killed the one enemy befor the other 3 arived).
While that is a fine point on it's own right, it's not valid here. We are arguing about how easy it is too keep a tab on all nearby enemies and potential attackers while in a large scale fight.
Phienyx wrote:
If you have a choice not to enter the PvP area, tell me how it is forced? Its plain and simple. If you don't want to possibly encounter PvP, don't go in there. If you dont' mind, have at it. There is no forcing going on. The choice is yours and only yours.
No, it's not a choice. It's a part of the core of the expansion, the pilot professions. You can't really NOT master the profession (since that will leave you with a fairly useless expansion). Therefore it's forced. From a certain point of view.
Malcolm_CaKre wrote:
As for forced PvP to master.... I like the idea.
I wish there were player-contestedmastery trials of some sort in all the other profs as well, to be honest. Mastery has no meaning in the ground game... You're either a master or a slow grinder.
That's one of the more common "excuses" or justifications I hear for these missions. The simple fact is that mastery has no meaning with these missions either. The notion that PVP means something while PVE doesn't is on all levels a very personal one. What means something for you, might mean nothing for someone else. While being good at PVP and proving yourself through that might means something for us, for someone else it's meaning less. (While collecting all forms of pocket lint might be the most meaningful thing ever for them).
If you're having problems, round up a bunch of other people who are also looking to do the mastery missions, and go hit it together.
That's also one of the more common things you will here in these threads. The simple fact here is that you will most likely need help anyway, and in no way does this justify missions that makes people completely do something they have absolutely no interest in doing. In no way does it justify that a playstyle is forced on those who actually hate said playstyle.
Or play odd hours. Use your ingenuity and your resources and your contactsand figure something out.
That's not an option for most people, that's not something you even should suggest. People have lives, family and similar thingslike thatand cannot do these missions at odd hours.
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Actually, you said players are completely unimaginative and can't outsmart a simple AI. And yes, you are giving people too much credit. Being smart and having intelligence are two very different things.
Woah, i did not say that ppl are completly unimaginative and cant outsmart a simple ai. I said that a person cab be caught offguard from a tuff npc. Get your info straight.
No you didn't. You said that fighting an AI and a player waspretty muchthe same. Ergo: players are not able to outsmart the AI and do imaginative things.
You like to keep putting words in my mouth dont you, are you just going to keep doing it till break or something. Here let me put it out straight for you. COMBAT IN A PVE AND PVP ARE NOT DIFFERENT. where in this little statement does it say ppl are not smarter than anpc AI. Another thing i said, NPC'S CAN KILL JUST LIKE A PVP PLAYER CAN, NPC'S CAN ATTACK JUST LIKE A PLAYER CAN, AND A NPC CAN DIE JUST LIKE A PLAYER CAN. Not one timein any of those statments does it say a player in not smarter than the AI. Is this going to be a war now who says ppl are stupid or something, You already said ppl are outright dumb, so stop saying that i said they where.
Being smart and having intelligence enough to do thoughtout things are two completely different things. You are the one saying that players are just as dumb as AI (even though you said that the AI was as smart as the players, but that's just semantics). Can you honestly not see the difference here?
Again where are you getting that im saing ppl are as dumb as the game ai. Im not, so stop putting words in my mouth AGAIN.
Oh really now? Time to quote the book of you again:
"...im saying that the devs that program the AI has done a good job of making the npc's really close to what other players do, and i wouldnt be surprised if they got there ideas from watching players from the game to enhance the npc AI."
You really didnt read the statment befor posting it did you, here re-read the spot i highlighted especialy the the part in red.
"Well lets see, ppl run in shooting, so do npc's. Some ppl keep running around wile shooting, wait the same as npc's. PPl will come up and use specials on you, but then agin so do npc's, the fact is the npc ai in the game is really not that different than players. Npc's will attack you if your an enemy, they will run from you when there about to die, just like a regular player.Npc'smay be dumb, but they act alot like a regular player."
"Second, NPCs lacks unpredictability, players do not." <---- My statement
"I dont think so, i have seen groups of npc's that would have 2 shooting from the back ground, 2 melee attacking up close and swithch off to running away to dropping the gun and attacking with a melee weapon. They sure act like alot of ppl i know when fighting. And up in space, npc ships do chase you like a regular player can, they are good to if your not watching there friends." <---- Your reply.
And your point in what i said? I think i did a good job pointing the basics that a npc and a plaver can do. Both can attack, both can run, both can die, and both can be predictible. And being predictible is not saying a person is stupid ether. Why dont you stop trying to make me a bad guy and stay on topic from now on.
Your on your own on this one, If you want to think that way, go ahead, But its your own downfall.
I might be on my own on this one, but then again: Why do people have troubles understanding instructions? Simple: Because people overestimate the intelligence of the general populace. Expect that people are dumb and write your instructions according to this, and things will be much smoother. Same thing here, don't expect that people will be prepared for the area and the missions just because the option exists. That's just folly.
Do you have a god complex or something, do you think your better than everyone else because you think that there dumb. I would recomend you get some help.
Above you say it means nothing to get 7.5millexp, and now you say you havent tried this. How do you know that getting the exp is not the alternative way of getting the master title?
Because it wasn't during beta. People tried that then. I'm only fairly sure now, because I can't actually test that statement until I have got JTL myself. It is HIGHLY unlikely that they would have changed this without mentioning it in any of the patch notes.
Maybe they didnt put in the patch notes since it wasnt tested yet, As you said, we dont know if ppl have tried to just get the exp, and we probably will have to wait.
Ah, but since we both don't know if the option for this exists or not, do you realize now that your argument here was completely pointless?
Your argument is pointless to, or did you figure that out to.
I did fight in kessel during the pvp weekend and i had some fun. I got into a battle with a person in there that lasted about 1-3 min, i kept on his tail and destroyed him, then 3 of his buddies came along and started to attack me, i did quiet well evading 2 of the playerslong enough todestroyed the 3rd befor the 2 killed me.
Four people? That's the vast extent of your "large scale JTL PVP experience"? Try it again with 15+ people and tell me if you can multi-task that well.
No i can fight in big groups, my point was that i did well in a pvp area where it was 3 agenst 1( i dont count it as 4 agenst 1 because i killed the one enemy befor the other 3 arived).
While that is a fine point on it's own right, it's not valid here. We are arguing about how easy it is too keep a tab on all nearby enemies and potential attackers while in a large scale fight.
How large does the battle have to be? Does it have to be 15 agenst 1? Nope, any enemy on the radar is an enemy, i can tell how close they are and what direction there coming from befor during a battle. For example, i could be chasing down a enemy and his to friends might be coming up behind me to get me befor i kill my target, from what i can see i can react by ether keep on my course on killing my current target or turn off to evade the impending danger coming up on me from the 2 coming up behind me. Its called useing tactics, and the radar helps me deside what tactics i want to use. Now if you cant get your radar to work, well just keep /bugging like you have been doing.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 11-02-2004 08:59 AM
Naquiel wrote:
No you didn't. You said that fighting an AI and a player waspretty muchthe same. Ergo: players are not able to outsmart the AI and do imaginative things.
You like to keep putting words in my mouth dont you,
I'm just returning in kind. POT, KETTLE, BLACK.
are you just going to keep doing it till break or something. Here let me put it out straight for you. COMBAT IN A PVE AND PVP ARE NOT DIFFERENT. where in this little statement does it say ppl are not smarter than anpc AI.
In that very statement. By saying that combat in PVE and PVP is not different, you are in effect saying that players and AI are just as smart.
Another thing i said, NPC'S CAN KILL JUST LIKE A PVP PLAYER CAN, NPC'S CAN ATTACK JUST LIKE A PLAYER CAN, AND A NPC CAN DIE JUST LIKE A PLAYER CAN. Not one timein any of those statments does it say a player in not smarter than the AI.
Wrong. You said that PVP and PVE combat is not different, that statement says that NPC and PC combat is similar, if NPC and PC combat apparently is similar, players can't be smarter than AI. Or do you actually agree that players are smarter than AI, that players actually have some form of rudimentary intelligence? Because if you do, you have just killed your own argument. If a player is always smarter than an AI; If a player can act on his own accord and not just after som set variables, then you have just proven yourself wrong. Thanks for trying though.
Is this going to be a war now who says ppl are stupid or something, You already said ppl are outright dumb, so stop saying that i said they where.
People ARE dumb. The big mass of people are in fact not smart, if you have this viewpoint, you will save yourself a lot of trouble when preparing any form of instructions for them.That does not in any way mean that they lack intelligence. That does not in any way mean that a set of variables and parameters (The AI) is as smart or smarter than them. Having intelligence does not mean that you are smart.
Again where are you getting that im saing ppl are as dumb as the game ai. Im not, so stop putting words in my mouth AGAIN.
Oh really now? Time to quote the book of you again:
"...im saying that the devs that program the AI has done a good job of making the npc's really close to what other players do, and i wouldnt be surprised if they got there ideas from watching players from the game to enhance the npc AI."
You really didnt read the statment befor posting it did you, here re-read the spot i highlighted especialy the the part in red.
I read it, and I laughed when I did. How can I not laugh at someone who thinks that there are similarities between players and AI?
"Well lets see, ppl run in shooting, so do npc's. Some ppl keep running around wile shooting, wait the same as npc's. PPl will come up and use specials on you, but then agin so do npc's, the fact is the npc ai in the game is really not that different than players. Npc's will attack you if your an enemy, they will run from you when there about to die, just like a regular player.Npc'smay be dumb, but they act alot like a regular player."
"Second, NPCs lacks unpredictability, players do not." <---- My statement
"I dont think so, i have seen groups of npc's that would have 2 shooting from the back ground, 2 melee attacking up close and swithch off to running away to dropping the gun and attacking with a melee weapon. They sure act like alot of ppl i know when fighting. And up in space, npc ships do chase you like a regular player can, they are good to if your not watching there friends." <---- Your reply.
And your point in what i said? I think i did a good job pointing the basics that a npc and a plaver can do. Both can attack, both can run, both can die, and both can be predictible. And being predictible is not saying a person is stupid ether. Why dont you stop trying to make me a bad guy and stay on topic from now on.
The point is this: You are arguing yourself into a corner here. You first state that the AI is as good as any player, then you state that the AI can never match a player. Make up your mind.
The point is this: You ARE equaling player intelligence with artificial intelligence in a MMO (which is just about the weakest type of AI you can find, by the way). Then further down in the very same thread, you will argue that NPCs and players are very different.
The point is this: You are actually equaling a set number of parameters, variables and scripts with the ability of a player to make intuitive choices, to plan, to actually try and predict what another player (or group thereof) is going to do. Then in the very same thread, you will argue that NPCs are very different than players.
The point is this: You can't seem to decide if NPCs are similar to players or different. Or is it maybe that youwill just state either when it serves your purpose? In the text I quoted above you CLEARLY state that players and NPCs are very similar, however when it comes to the topic of moving the missions out of the PVP area, you will state that they are in fact very different. So, which is it?
I might be on my own on this one, but then again: Why do people have troubles understanding instructions? Simple: Because people overestimate the intelligence of the general populace. Expect that people are dumb and write your instructions according to this, and things will be much smoother. Same thing here, don't expect that people will be prepared for the area and the missions just because the option exists. That's just folly.
Do you have a god complex or something, do you think your better than everyone else because you think that there dumb. I would recomend you get some help.
No, I'm looking at this from a design point of view. Usability and all that. It's a simple fact: Expect people to be dumb when you are going to deal with them, it's better to give them too little credit in this regard than to give them too much. Let's take the manual of your average computer game, for instance. Whoever writes there MUST have quite a similar viewpoint as mine, why else do they always start with the most basic instructions ever? Simple: Because they expect that the people aren't smart enough to figure that out on their own. Same thing here: You can't expect people to prepare and study up on the subject/mission/expansion at hand, because you quite simply can't even start to imagine where the average level of userintelligence is at. Unless it's some form of specialized you are talking about, it's much better to set your standards after the lowest one possible: That is: Expect people to be dumb.
Your argument is pointless to, or did you figure that out to.
My argument is just a counter argument to your pointless argument, so yeah. It's pointless too. (Duh)
While that is a fine point on it's own right, it's not valid here. We are arguing about how easy it is too keep a tab on all nearby enemies and potential attackers while in a large scale fight.
How large does the battle have to be? Does it have to be 15 agenst 1?
For this argument it needs to be a fairly large number. Are you forgetting here that we are talking about how easy/hard it is to spot incomming player craft when you are busy with your mission?
Now, Just look at the numbe of ships escorting the Corvette. Imagine keeping track of all those, as well as all NPC ships and PC ships within 5k of your position. Now imagine that you need to be instantly aware when one of these PC ships starts their run towards you.Not even you can do this fully, not even with your super human ability to multi task.
Nope, any enemy on the radar is an enemy, i can tell how close they are and what direction there coming from befor during a battle.
I very much doubt it. But you are welcome to state that over and over again, I'm not certain if you've actually got super humanspatial awarenessor not.
For example, i could be chasing down a enemy and his to friends might be coming up behind me to get me befor i kill my target, from what i can see i can react by ether keep on my course on killing my current target or turn off to evade the impending danger coming up on me from the 2 coming up behind me. Its called useing tactics, and the radar helps me deside what tactics i want to use. Now if you cant get your radar to work, well just keep /bugging like you have been doing.
You are again missing the entire point by a mile or two. Imagine doing that very thing, multiply it by about four and now imagine if you can keep a check of ALL possible ships within 5k of your location. Are you actually capable of this?
That said, I don't think it's a good idea to force people to be exposed to PvP to master a profession. It's just not necessary from a game mechanics perspective, and it doesn't accomplish any positive goal.
If this game were treated by the players as an RPG instead of as Quake in Space, I'd be all for the PvP thing, because in a "real" role-playing environment, there wouldn't be gank squads intent on nothing but making other people not enjoy the game. That's the quintessential definition of "griefer"- one who has fun by making other people not have fun.
It's not PvP that's the problem. It's the fact that there's people that are going to abuse the system to have fun at the expense of others. I play a lot of online FPS type games, like Quake and Tribes, Counterstrike, and so on. Those are a hell of a lot of fun, but the general mechanic doesn't translate well to a system like this one.
In real terms, it comes down to human nature. Some people just don't like to play against other people in a game like this one, which is why the game has always tried to cater to both sides of the aisle; it shouldn't be necessary to fight other players to play a character in SWG. That's what the environment is *for*. If you want full-time, no-holds-barred PvP, there's plenty of other games out there that provide that as their primary feature! Why is it necessary to require that people do something they don't enjoy to partake in a role-playing game?