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Thread: Concerning the Pro's of Forced PvP Mastership......
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
are you just going to keep doing it till break or something. Here let me put it out straight for you. COMBAT IN A PVE AND PVP ARE NOT DIFFERENT. where in this little statement does it say ppl are not smarter than anpc AI.
In that very statement. By saying that combat in PVE and PVP is not different, you are in effect saying that players and AI are just as smart.
No you are making the generalization that ppl are as smart as the npc AI. All im saying that ppl react just like the AI as in they fight when they see the enemy, they run away just like an npc. So how can you get that i was saying that a player would be as smart as a npc. You are the one saying their as smart as the AI.
Another thing i said, NPC'S CAN KILL JUST LIKE A PVP PLAYER CAN, NPC'S CAN ATTACK JUST LIKE A PLAYER CAN, AND A NPC CAN DIE JUST LIKE A PLAYER CAN. Not one timein any of those statments does it say a player in not smarter than the AI.
Wrong. You said that PVP and PVE combat is not different, that statement says that NPC and PC combat is similar, if NPC and PC combat apparently is similar, players can't be smarter than AI. Or do you actually agree that players are smarter than AI, that players actually have some form of rudimentary intelligence? Because if you do, you have just killed your own argument. If a player is always smarter than an AI; If a player can act on his own accord and not just after som set variables, then you have just proven yourself wrong. Thanks for trying though.
Ask yourself this, what does a npc ship do if it argos you? What does a pvp player do when they find you in a pvp battle field? The answer for both is they attack you, so no difference and my statment has no bering on how smart a person is. Being attacked is just plain beingattacked . just like dieing is dieing, and just like you killing a npc is just like a npc killing you. No way shape or form of any kind does a person intelegence come into play.
Is this going to be a war now who says ppl are stupid or something, You already said ppl are outright dumb, so stop saying that i said they where.
People ARE dumb. The big mass of people are in fact not smart, if you have this viewpoint, you will save yourself a lot of trouble when preparing any form of instructions for them.That does not in any way mean that they lack intelligence. That does not in any way mean that a set of variables and parameters (The AI) is as smart or smarter than them. Having intelligence does not mean that you are smart.
Believe what you want, if you want to say ppl are dumb thats your opinion.
Oh really now? Time to quote the book of you again:
"...im saying that the devs that program the AI has done a good job of making the npc's really close to what other players do, and i wouldnt be surprised if they got there ideas from watching players from the game to enhance the npc AI."
You really didnt read the statment befor posting it did you, here re-read the spot i highlighted especialy the the part in red.
I read it, and I laughed when I did. How can I not laugh at someone who thinks that there are similarities between players and AI?
Then what would you call it when a npcor a pvp player can attack you? Answer is theycan attack you, both do it, so that means there is no differerence.
The point is this: You are arguing yourself into a corner here. You first state that the AI is as good as any player, then you state that the AI can never match a player. Make up your mind.
No, i said that the ai does the same things as a player does.
The point is this: You ARE equaling player intelligence with artificial intelligence in a MMO (which is just about the weakest type of AI you can find, by the way). Then further down in the very same thread, you will argue that NPCs and players are very different.
No, you are making the link that intellegence is involved, but then again you say ppl are dumb so make up your mind.
I might be on my own on this one, but then again: Why do people have troubles understanding instructions? Simple: Because people overestimate the intelligence of the general populace. Expect that people are dumb and write your instructions according to this, and things will be much smoother. Same thing here, don't expect that people will be prepared for the area and the missions just because the option exists. That's just folly.
Do you have a god complex or something, do you think your better than everyone else because you think that there dumb. I would recomend you get some help.
No, I'm looking at this from a design point of view. Usability and all that. It's a simple fact: Expect people to be dumb when you are going to deal with them, it's better to give them too little credit in this regard than to give them too much. Let's take the manual of your average computer game, for instance. Whoever writes there MUST have quite a similar viewpoint as mine, why else do they always start with the most basic instructions ever? Simple: Because they expect that the people aren't smart enough to figure that out on their own. Same thing here: You can't expect people to prepare and study up on the subject/mission/expansion at hand, because you quite simply can't even start to imagine where the average level of userintelligence is at. Unless it's some form of specialized you are talking about, it's much better to set your standards after the lowest one possible: That is: Expect people to be dumb.
I think you better stop calling ppl dumb, it just make you look bad.
While that is a fine point on it's own right, it's not valid here. We are arguing about how easy it is too keep a tab on all nearby enemies and potential attackers while in a large scale fight.
How large does the battle have to be? Does it have to be 15 agenst 1?
For this argument it needs to be a fairly large number. Are you forgetting here that we are talking about how easy/hard it is to spot incomming player craft when you are busy with your mission?
Its not hard to see a/many red dots moving tward you when your doing a mission. Are you telling me you cant see the radar when your doing your mission, its just like driving in a car and you look down to check your speed limit.
Now, Just look at the numbe of ships escorting the Corvette. Imagine keeping track of all those, as well as all NPC ships and PC ships within 5k of your position. Now imagine that you need to be instantly aware when one of these PC ships starts their run towards you.Not even you can do this fully, not even with your super human ability to multi task.
Well i can, I can keep tabs and so can many ppl. it is you that dont know how to use the radar, and you will have a hard time playing.
Nope, any enemy on the radar is an enemy, i can tell how close they are and what direction there coming from befor during a battle.
I very much doubt it. But you are welcome to state that over and over again, I'm not certain if you've actually got super humanspatial awarenessor not.
How hard is it to tell the size of a dot on a radar. If the dot is really small,the targetis far away, if its really large, then the target would be almost on top of you.
For example, i could be chasing down a enemy and his to friends might be coming up behind me to get me befor i kill my target, from what i can see i can react by ether keep on my course on killing my current target or turn off to evade the impending danger coming up on me from the 2 coming up behind me. Its called useing tactics, and the radar helps me deside what tactics i want to use. Now if you cant get your radar to work, well just keep /bugging like you have been doing.
You are again missing the entire point by a mile or two. Imagine doing that very thing, multiply it by about four and now imagine if you can keep a check of ALL possible ships within 5k of your location. Are you actually capable of this?
Well if i had 4 times the amount of enemys headed my way i would think i would have the sence to get out of the area(thats if i was being attacked 16 to 1), But if i was in the goup and was in a very big battle, i still would be able to see whats happening from all the different color dots on my radar. As in the enemy will be red, allies will be a different color, and the ppl in my group will also be a different color. So how hard is it to keep tabs on red dots.
But now that we are getting away from the main point, i would still have to say that having the mission in a pvp area will be no different than having it in a pve area. In both areas you will get attacked, in both areas you have the chance to fail the mission, in both areas you whould have to defend yourself. So there is no reason for moving the mission.
Naquiel wrote:
are you just going to keep doing it till break or something. Here let me put it out straight for you. COMBAT IN A PVE AND PVP ARE NOT DIFFERENT. where in this little statement does it say ppl are not smarter than anpc AI.
In that very statement. By saying that combat in PVE and PVP is not different, you are in effect saying that players and AI are just as smart.
No you are making the generalization that ppl are as smart as the npc AI. All im saying that ppl react just like the AI as in they fight when they see the enemy, they run away just like an npc. So how can you get that i was saying that a player would be as smart as a npc. You are the one saying their as smart as the AI.
No, that is not what you are saying. You are saying that "COMBAT IN A PVE AND PVP ARE NOT DIFFERENT". If that statement in anyway would be true, that would mean that players and NPCs are not different either. By stating that the NPCs and PCs can do the same things does not equal thatPVP and PVE combat is not very different. Either:
A) You are saying that PVP and PVE combat is similar, which means that Players lack even rudimentary intelligence
or:
B) You are saying that players and NPCs can do the same thing, which does not in any way mean that PVP and PVE combat i similar. PVP and PVE combat can't ever be similar as long as players have the ability to think.
Another thing i said, NPC'S CAN KILL JUST LIKE A PVP PLAYER CAN, NPC'S CAN ATTACK JUST LIKE A PLAYER CAN, AND A NPC CAN DIE JUST LIKE A PLAYER CAN. Not one timein any of those statments does it say a player in not smarter than the AI.
Wrong. You said that PVP and PVE combat is not different, that statement says that NPC and PC combat is similar, if NPC and PC combat apparently is similar, players can't be smarter than AI. Or do you actually agree that players are smarter than AI, that players actually have some form of rudimentary intelligence? Because if you do, you have just killed your own argument. If a player is always smarter than an AI; If a player can act on his own accord and not just after som set variables, then you have just proven yourself wrong. Thanks for trying though.
Ask yourself this, what does a npc ship do if it argos you? What does a pvp player do when they find you in a pvp battle field? The answer for both is they attack you, so no difference and my statment has no bering on how smart a person is.
Huge difference here: THe player makes a concious decision to attack, or maybe to move away. The NPC MUST attack due to settings in it's artificial intelligence. Or are you saying that players ALWAYSattack other players if they have the possibility? Either you are saying that:
A) Players are not smarter than the AI, players lack the ability to think. How could they be similar if that wasn't true?
OR:
B) Players and NPCs are different, which would make your entire argument rather void.
Being attacked is just plain beingattacked .
No, it's not. Being attacked by a NPC that MUST attack due to settings, and being attacked by an actual, living, thinking being is very different.
just like dieing is dieing, and just like you killing a npc is just like a npc killing you. No way shape or form of any kind does a person intelegence come into play.
LOL! Ok, so a persons ability to make decision never comes into play when they make a decision to fight? You can't be quite serious.
Is this going to be a war now who says ppl are stupid or something, You already said ppl are outright dumb, so stop saying that i said they where.
People ARE dumb. The big mass of people are in fact not smart, if you have this viewpoint, you will save yourself a lot of trouble when preparing any form of instructions for them.That does not in any way mean that they lack intelligence. That does not in any way mean that a set of variables and parameters (The AI) is as smart or smarter than them. Having intelligence does not mean that you are smart.
Believe what you want, if you want to say ppl are dumb thats your opinion.
Yes, and believe what you want. If you expect people to be smart, then don't be surprised when things fail.
Oh really now? Time to quote the book of you again:
"...im saying that the devs that program the AI has done a good job of making the npc's really close to what other players do, and i wouldnt be surprised if they got there ideas from watching players from the game to enhance the npc AI."
You really didnt read the statment befor posting it did you, here re-read the spot i highlighted especialy the the part in red.
I read it, and I laughed when I did. How can I not laugh at someone who thinks that there are similarities between players and AI?
Then what would you call it when a npcor a pvp player can attack you? Answer is theycan attack you, both do it, so that means there is no differerence.
Again: The player makes a concious choice to attack because he can make that decision, or he moves away to do something else. An NPC can't make any decisions of this kind at all. NPC's lack all forms of intelligence. You can't dispute this, can you? And if you can't, you would also have to agree to the fact that there is a huge difference, right?
The point is this: You are arguing yourself into a corner here. You first state that the AI is as good as any player, then you state that the AI can never match a player. Make up your mind.
No, i said that the ai does the same things as a player does.
No you didn't. You said that PVE and PVP combat is very much the same. But then you say that if these missions were to be turned into a PVE thing only, it would have to be much more harder, since PVE combat is much more different than PVP. Make up your mind here, please.
The point is this: You ARE equaling player intelligence with artificial intelligence in a MMO (which is just about the weakest type of AI you can find, by the way). Then further down in the very same thread, you will argue that NPCs and players are very different.
No, you are making the link that intellegence is involved, but then again you say ppl are dumb so make up your mind.
Not even you can come around and state that there is no intelligence involved when players do something. Having intelligence does not equal being smart, even you should know this. EVERYTHING a player does involves some form of intelligence. If it did not, that player would be a vegetable hooked up to one of those breathing machines.
Do you have a god complex or something, do you think your better than everyone else because you think that there dumb. I would recomend you get some help.
No, I'm looking at this from a design point of view. Usability and all that. It's a simple fact: Expect people to be dumb when you are going to deal with them, it's better to give them too little credit in this regard than to give them too much. Let's take the manual of your average computer game, for instance. Whoever writes there MUST have quite a similar viewpoint as mine, why else do they always start with the most basic instructions ever? Simple: Because they expect that the people aren't smart enough to figure that out on their own. Same thing here: You can't expect people to prepare and study up on the subject/mission/expansion at hand, because you quite simply can't even start to imagine where the average level of userintelligence is at. Unless it's some form of specialized you are talking about, it's much better to set your standards after the lowest one possible: That is: Expect people to be dumb.
I think you better stop calling ppl dumb, it just make you look bad.
Is that all your counter-argument is? Kinda reminds me of Bart Simpson ("I know you are, but what am I").
Seriously, read what I wrote again: I'm not saying that all people are dumb at all times. I'm saying that on the large scale, expect people to be dumb. Never expect them to be smart and that they will learn things before they will have to do them (which is what you thought people would do with these missions). Do so and you will save yourself a lot of trouble.
While that is a fine point on it's own right, it's not valid here. We are arguing about how easy it is too keep a tab on all nearby enemies and potential attackers while in a large scale fight.
For this argument it needs to be a fairly large number. Are you forgetting here that we are talking about how easy/hard it is to spot incomming player craft when you are busy with your mission?
Its not hard to see a/many red dots moving tward you when your doing a mission. Are you telling me you cant see the radar when your doing your mission, its just like driving in a car and you look down to check your speed limit.
Are you completely daft? THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT LOOKING AT THE RADAR. This is about keeping track of EVERY player and NPC that's within your range of radar visibility. You were the one who stated that this is not a problem. Are you seriously stating here that you fully expect people to be able to spot players from a distance of 5k zooming in on them while they at the same time are occupied with NPCs or other players? Are you seriously saying that someone without super human spatial awareness could keep track of everything that happens in a globe with a radius of about 5k around them?
Now, Just look at the numbe of ships escorting the Corvette. Imagine keeping track of all those, as well as all NPC ships and PC ships within 5k of your position. Now imagine that you need to be instantly aware when one of these PC ships starts their run towards you.Not even you can do this fully, not even with your super human ability to multi task.
Well i can, I can keep tabs and so can many ppl. it is you that dont know how to use the radar, and you will have a hard time playing.
First of all: The radar is not even sufficient for this, you WILL have to frequently target everyone within your 5k range to see if they are either players or npcs. You will have to frequently target everyone within your 5k range to see if they are moving towards you or not. You will have to keep a track of the ships you are fighting. You will have to dodge fire and launch CMs against the missiles fired at you while doing all this.
Or are you now saying that you can use the radar to do all this?
Second: Please, if you are going to try and insult me, at the very least do it good.
Nope, any enemy on the radar is an enemy, i can tell how close they are and what direction there coming from befor during a battle.
I very much doubt it. But you are welcome to state that over and over again, I'm not certain if you've actually got super humanspatial awarenessor not.
How hard is it to tell the size of a dot on a radar. If the dot is really small,the targetis far away, if its really large, then the target would be almost on top of you.
Listen very carefully (I will say this only once, or maybe a few thousand times. Until it get's stuck in your head): Not even you can keep track of the distance, heading and type of NPC by just using the radar. You can't, it's not even possible. Here are the facts:
Fact: A dot is a dot is a dot, you can't tell if a red dot is a NPC or PC by looking at the radar
Fact: A dot grows bigger when it approaches you, but that tells nothing of their heading. They might not be heading directlytowards you just because the dot is growing.
Fact: When the dot grows larger, it's probably already too late to escape someone. They are pretty much over you already, especially since a person at4-4-4-4 for most parts will have weaker engines and boosters than a master pilots.
Fact: You can't know if a dot on the radar is fighting another dot with just using the radar. You can't know if that player dot is actively fighting someone else near you, and not comming closer with just using the rader.
Or are you now going to state that you can, which your super human spatial awareness?
For example, i could be chasing down a enemy and his to friends might be coming up behind me to get me befor i kill my target, from what i can see i can react by ether keep on my course on killing my current target or turn off to evade the impending danger coming up on me from the 2 coming up behind me. Its called useing tactics, and the radar helps me deside what tactics i want to use. Now if you cant get your radar to work, well just keep /bugging like you have been doing.
You are again missing the entire point by a mile or two. Imagine doing that very thing, multiply it by about four and now imagine if you can keep a check of ALL possible ships within 5k of your location. Are you actually capable of this?
Well if i had 4 times the amount of enemys headed my way i would think i would have the sence to get out of the area(thats if i was being attacked 16 to 1),
Not an option while doing mission one.
But if i was in the goup and was in a very big battle, i still would be able to see whats happening from all the different color dots on my radar. As in the enemy will be red, allies will be a different color, and the ppl in my group will also be a different color. So how hard is it to keep tabs on red dots.
Look up on the facts I wrote above, can you actually keep tabs on all that with just using the radar? Nope, you can't.
But now that we are getting away from the main point, i would still have to say that having the mission in a pvp area will be no different than having it in a pve area.
Again, you can't seem to make up your mind. First you state that PVP are PVE are similar, with not much differences. Then you state that PVP and PVE are not similar, since a mission in PVE spacewould (For some unknown reason) have to be much harder than a mission in PVP space. Now again you state that there are no differences. You're pretty much all over the place here, which is it?
In both areas you will get attacked, in both areas you have the chance to fail the mission, in both areas you whould have to defend yourself. So there is no reason for moving the mission.
*Sigh*. Do I have to list the reasons again? Ok, here they are:
The number one freakin' reason: It absolutely doesn't have to be in a PVP area to be challenging. PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP.
The second freakin' reason: It absolutely wouldn't offend ANYONE if it didn't include PVP. Move the mission to Dathomir, and everyone would be happy. The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel.
The third freakin' reason: It doesn't even contain PVP, all it does is to make people a PVP target. A target that can get their ENTIRE mission progress nullified by ONE hit. What is this supposed to do? What's the point of this?
The fourth freakin' reason: It serves no purpose. No one has YET been able to say WHY this is such a good idea. All I hear is "blah, blah, Challenge". "Blah, blah, blah, grow balls". "Blah, blah, blah, PVP is the best of the best" etc.
The fifth freakin' reason: SWG players have been promised that PVP will be optional. As it is now, that is not true in JTL. Hell, not even neutral pilots can get away from it.
The sixth freakin' reason: (And this ties in with reason five) It's more or less mandatory, since a 4-4-4-4 pilot might just as well not buy JTL.
The seventh freakin' reason: It does not promote PVP. All it does is to increase the chasm between PVPers and PVEers.
The eight freakin' reason: This one issue was very frequent on the Top 5 issues threads we had during beta. In fact, by my guesstimation it was on about half of all posts in the very last issues thread. This means that fairly many of the beta testers wanted a change. This also was evident in the threadwhere 4-4-4-4 pilots and master pilots discussed these missions.
There are at the very least EIGHT good reasons to move to a PVE area, pretty much all of them do justify a move in their own right. However there are ABSOLUTELY no good reasons for the mission to stay yet. Not even you can seemingly point out any reason, yet you are quite adamant that they should not be moved? Why?
All evidence points towards that these missions must be changed. Nothing points towards that the missions should remain the same. Why should they remain the same?
What's the purpose?
When the first real PVPer gets called "a griefer" for killing someone in Kessel, too much damage has already been done. This has probably even happened already. Or is this something good by your standards?
When the first person complains that they are forced into a playstyle they hate, too much damage has already been done. This happened a long time ago now. Or is this something good by your standards?
Moving these missions should logically not offend anyone, only people who can be offended are actual griefers looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel. Or are you here to defend these people?
Naquiel wrote:
No, that is not what you are saying. You are saying that "COMBAT IN A PVE AND PVP ARE NOT DIFFERENT". If that statement in anyway would be true, that would mean that players and NPCs are not different either. By stating that the NPCs and PCs can do the same things does not equal thatPVP and PVE combat is not very different. Either:
A) You are saying that PVP and PVE combat is similar, which means that Players lack even rudimentary intelligence
Intelligence has nothing to do with it. But just to humor you PPl can be as dumb as a stump or a total genius and know that if there being attacked they would react to it. And yes we do have a choice if we want to fight or not, but so can the AI in the game.
Something tells me I should probably just stop arguing with you right here. Such a statement is rather humorous, and quite frankly, I can't believe than anyone would thing that it's true. You are quite wrong here, the AI can not make a similar choice as the players can. An AI can NEVER EVER make a concious choice. Not until "real" AI is invented anyway. Even someone who is a dumb as a stump can make choices better than an MMO-AI could ever do, the AI can only "act" according to a bunch of set parameters after analyzing abuch of set variables. They can't think ahead. They can't have any moral aspects to their choices. So no, you are quite wrong here. Players and AI are not similar, you can't possibly even suggest this.
or:
B) You are saying that players and NPCs can do the same thing, which does not in any way mean that PVP and PVE combat i similar. PVP and PVE combat can't ever be similar as long as players have the ability to think.
Again your assuming that intellegence is part of this when its not. Im talking about reactions. So think hard, if a npc, or a player attacks you, what do you do?
Even a reaction is a form of thought out, concious choice. Or are you suggesting that human beings and their reactions are all just some form of reflex? Even though it'smight be aswift reaction, it's still a decision being made by a concious, thinking being. Intelligence is very much a part of doing such decisions, and the NPCs lack that form of intelligence. Get serious, will you?
When a player gets attacked, he or she will do the very thing that their minds deem as the best course of action at that very moment. An NPC will act according to whatever parameters the programmer set for them. That's the difference.
Huge difference here: THe player makes a concious decision to attack, or maybe to move away. The NPC MUST attack due to settings in it's artificial intelligence. Or are you saying that players ALWAYSattack other players if they have the possibility? Either you are saying that:
A) Players are not smarter than the AI, players lack the ability to think. How could they be similar if that wasn't true?
OR:
B) Players and NPCs are different, which would make your entire argument rather void.
I would have to say C) Npc's also have the ability to not attack depending on the amount of faction you have with them. So does this mean that npc and ppl have a choice to attack, yes i believe so. Stll there is no difference.
But the NPCs don't have a choice! If they did, we would have thinking machines! You can't make a choice without actually having the capacity of doing so! What you might interpret as a choice is nothing but a script, some parameters and variables, some coding and some mathematical analysis at work.
Being attacked is just plain beingattacked .
No, it's not. Being attacked by a NPC that MUST attack due to settings, and being attacked by an actual, living, thinking being is very different.
How can it be different if some one wants to attack you, they just attack.
Again: The difference is that an NPC MUST attack (or take any other action that is set by their coding), they don't have any choices at all. Players can do whatever they wish. I'm starting to think that you are just arguing because of arguments sake.
Believe what you want, if you want to say ppl are dumb thats your opinion.
Yes, and believe what you want. If you expect people to be smart, then don't be surprised when things fail.
Yes ppl are smart, if they fail at something, they are really good of finding what went wrong and they try again.
But that's not what we are discussing here. We are discussing your statement that you thought that players would prepare and read up on the missions in Kessel. If they have failed once and goes out to look for facts on why it went wrong, they didn't really prepare and read up on the missions. Therefore: Expect people to be sumb, and you might not be in that situation. Expect people to be dumb for the sake of argument, when there is no proof that they are smart enough to read up on things before hand.
Again: The player makes a concious choice to attack because he can make that decision, or he moves away to do something else. An NPC can't make any decisions of this kind at all. NPC's lack all forms of intelligence. You can't dispute this, can you? And if you can't, you would also have to agree to the fact that there is a huge difference, right?
Well the npc can make a choice to, its called faction alining. In the game the devs have it set up to see if npc will like you, hate you or just dont care, Just like a person can like you hate you or just dont care. Its all about what faction you have with them. Or are you saying that all the npc's in the game are all set to just kill you. Again there is no difference.
It's not a choice! The NPC's have to act by following the rules the developers have set for them. A meatlump MUST attack someone with a meatlump faction of -5000. A player who hates another player with burning faction can actually make the choice NOT to attack the other player. NPCs don't have that capacity at all. Are you really going to argue against this? Are you sure you even WANT to argue against this? The difference is plain and clear if you just stop and think for a minute or two.
No you didn't. You said that PVE and PVP combat is very much the same. But then you say that if these missions were to be turned into a PVE thing only, it would have to be much more harder, since PVE combat is much more different than PVP. Make up your mind here, please.
I did not say that pve combat is harder, I said if the devs moved the mission to a pve area, the devs would make it harder( by tuffer ships with strong armor and faster engines ) to help match the conditions found in a pvp zone.
But why? If PVP and PVE is so similar, why would the PVE mission need to be sooo much harder (Similar to the DWB, I believe you said. With endless waves of super though ships, I believe it was)? Why?
You see ppl are smart enough to find targets easyier to kill so they dont get killed if there fighting them. So just moving the mission to a pve area without making adjustments then everyone and there brother would finish the mission with ease.
No they won't. There were plenty of people who had lots of troubles with these missions during beta. Even when there were no PVPers around in Kessel. And how would they find easier targets when the targets would be the same? Besides, are you insinuating that players can now take concious, thought out choices? Just earlier you were arguing that they couldn't.
If the devs wanted that, they would of put the mission in a pve area, but they didnt. The mission is to be tuff.
You don't know this. I don't know this. For all we know, this might just be a wet dream of whatever developer designed it. It might just be a way to promote PVP. It might just be a way to (try and) give purpose to the GCW. It might just be a way of adding challenge. Quite frankly, we don't know what the purpose was. Because of their ability to tip-toe around this subject and their silence, I would wager that their goal was to promote PVP.
So again if they move the mission to a pve area then the npc would have to be tuffer to ether match the players you will find in a pvp area or even stronger then what you would find in a pvp area.
But why?
I think you better stop calling ppl dumb, it just make you look bad.
Is that all your counter-argument is? Kinda reminds me of Bart Simpson ("I know you are, but what am I").
Seriously, read what I wrote again: I'm not saying that all people are dumb at all times. I'm saying that on the large scale, expect people to be dumb. Never expect them to be smart and that they will learn things before they will have to do them (which is what you thought people would do with these missions). Do so and you will save yourself a lot of trouble.
While that is a fine point on it's own right, it's not valid here. We are arguing about how easy it is too keep a tab on all nearby enemies and potential attackers while in a large scale fight.
Well to help you stop calling ppl dumb i will no longer debate with you on if a person is dumb or not, it really doesnt do anything for the focus of the thread ether.
Awww... Not giving me a counter argument at the very least? The focus of this thread has been dead for many posts now, but fine. I accept your surrender on this matter.
Its not hard to see a/many red dots moving tward you when your doing a mission. Are you telling me you cant see the radar when your doing your mission, its just like driving in a car and you look down to check your speed limit.
Are you completely daft? THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT LOOKING AT THE RADAR. This is about keeping track of EVERY player and NPC that's within your range of radar visibility. You were the one who stated that this is not a problem. Are you seriously stating here that you fully expect people to be able to spot players from a distance of 5k zooming in on them while they at the same time are occupied with NPCs or other players? Are you seriously saying that someone without super human spatial awareness could keep track of everything that happens in a globe with a radius of about 5k around them?
No im not daft Yes, I do say that ppl can. I know that my guild mates can. So if i can do it, then you can do it and others can do it.
Ah, I see that you are once again giving people too much credit. There is a limit to the capacity of the human mind. Are you seriously going to argue that a human would be capable of doing this?
First of all: The radar is not even sufficient for this, you WILL have to frequently target everyone within your 5k range to see if they are either players or npcs.
No you dont, you dont have to target all players or npc's, just target the ones coming at you. The size of the dots will get bigger if there getting closer to you.
Get serious, you can't keep track of that at all times while trying to fight/dodge fire. Besides, when the dots starts to grow, you are most likely too late anyway. It's really quite simple to understand: To know who and which ones are heading towards you, you will need to target them. You will need to target a bunch of "dots" in a busy fight with many nearby players and NPCs within 5k. Heck, to know which ones are players or not you will also need to target them.
You will have to frequently target everyone within your 5k range to see if they are moving towards you or not. You will have to keep a track of the ships you are fighting.
No you dont, you dont have to target all players or npc's, just target the ones coming at you. You really dont have to target anythig to see if there coming at you, just look at your radar, and see the size of the dots. If the dot is ver small, thenthe target isfar away, if its big, then the target isvery near you.
If the dot is big, they are already over you. So, let's say we have a radar of 30 dots. 15 white and 15 red. Five of these are actively fighting you, one is the corvette and two others are the gunboats. That leaves 8 red dots in the radar range. You can't quite possibly keep track of all of these while twisting, turning and dogfighting. When one grows, you might not even notice that since it just grew to the size of one other. You don't know which far dot is which ship, especially not while twisting and turning. So yes, you do have to target just about all ships.
You will have to dodge fire and launch CMs against the missiles fired at you while doing all this.
Yes, that is part of combat, you will have to keep tabs on all that is happening. And ppl can do this.
Get serious, read what I wrote above. You can't actually even being to state that a normal, non-super human person can do this.
How hard is it to tell the size of a dot on a radar. If the dot is really small,the targetis far away, if its really large, then the target would be almost on top of you.
Listen very carefully (I will say this only once, or maybe a few thousand times. Until it get's stuck in your head): Not even you can keep track of the distance, heading and type of NPC by just using the radar. You can't, it's not even possible. Here are the facts:
Fact: A dot is a dot is a dot, you can't tell if a red dot is a NPC or PC by looking at the radar
Fact: An enemy is an enemy, you kill them befor they kill you, NPC or PC. So just stop trying to just track just the pc, think of every red dot as your enemy that is just there to kill you.
Again: You are loosing track of the conversation. This conversation is about tracking all possible PCsincomming while doing the missions.
Fact: A dot grows bigger when it approaches you, but that tells nothing of their heading. They might not be heading directlytowards you just because the dot is growing.
Look at the radar again, if the red dot heads to the middle of the radar where you are at, than yes its after you.
Uh, that's not howthe radarworks. If the red dots heads towards the middle, that means the target is moving up in front of you. In fact "we" are not even in the radar. The central area of the radar is what's up ahead of us.
if it stays off to the edge of the radar, then its not coming at you.
Wrong, the edges of the radar is what's to our sides, above us, below us and behind us. They can very well be moving towards us. In fact, the very edges of the radar is pretty much on our "six".
But again an enemy is an enemy and any that comes on the radar needs to be keeped tabs on.
And people can do this with all ships within 5k, right?
Fact: When the dot grows larger, it's probably already too late to escape someone. They are pretty much over you already, especially since a person at4-4-4-4 for most parts will have weaker engines and boosters than a master pilots.
Fact: you will never know how strong a enemy is till you fight them.
That's not a fact. You can very much tell how strong an enemy might be before you fight them. For players, their ship, speed and title are tell tale signs of this. Also, you can observe their handling in combat if you have the chance. So no, you don't have to fight people to know how strong they are.
Just like on the ground game, you can chose to avoid the red dots to escape conflict and the same can be done in space. If something looks like a threat, then get out of the area.
Contradicting yourself again. If you will never know how strong an enemy is until you fight them, you can't logically see if they are a threat or not.
Fact: You can't know if a dot on the radar is fighting another dot with just using the radar. You can't know if that player dot is actively fighting someone else near you, and not comming closer with just using the rader.
Fact: Yes you can see if one dot is fighting another dot with the radar. Look and see, if you have a white dot right near a red/yellow dot and there moving in a way like there chasing each other, and one of the dots dissapear, then you will know if they where fighting.
Not a fact. Red and white dots near each other, or even following each other does not mean that theyare fighting. A dot dissapearing might mean they move out of range (or your set scanning range), hyperspace away or blow up. And exactly how do you propose that people will even be able to see if two dots are "chasing" each other? And how do you propose that people will do this while they themselves are twisting and turning (which alters the radar point of view, in case you didn't know)?
Well if i had 4 times the amount of enemys headed my way i would think i would have the sence to get out of the area(thats if i was being attacked 16 to 1),
Not an option while doing mission one.
Then get friends. If it is that tuff to do, then get help. You do know that most things in this game are not to be soloed.
Again: We have been over this a multitude of times. That's not an excuse or justificationfor these missions. People will need help anyway, so stop bringing it up.
But if i was in the goup and was in a very big battle, i still would be able to see whats happening from all the different color dots on my radar. As in the enemy will be red, allies will be a different color, and the ppl in my group will also be a different color. So how hard is it to keep tabs on red dots.
Look up on the facts I wrote above, can you actually keep tabs on all that with just using the radar? Nope, you can't.
Yes i can, i did it in beta and i can do it in live.
Really now? You don't even know how the radar work, how did you manage to do that?
In both areas you will get attacked, in both areas you have the chance to fail the mission, in both areas you whould have to defend yourself. So there is no reason for moving the mission.
*Sigh*. Do I have to list the reasons again? Ok, here they are:
The number one freakin' reason: It absolutely doesn't have to be in a PVP area to be challenging. PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP.
Put it in a pve area and put tuffnpc ships around it (like a tier 6 ship, or making it like a DWB in space) then it would be challeng = PVE.
No, it would not be challenge = PVE. The Challenge = PVE statement means that challenge can only come in the form of PVE ever, since Challenge IS PVE. It would be challenging, but challenge would not equal PVE. Simple logic.
What you are not understanding is, the devs put the mission in the pvp area to make finishing the mission a challenge.
Yet again: You don't know this, neither do I. So stop trying to bring this up as fact. For all we know, the developers put these missions in PVP space to just to further his or hers death-toll of Players through PVP. (no, that was not a serious statement, but you should get the picture anyway. We don't actually know WHY these missions are here until we get an official statement.).
And if they had to move it to a pve area then they would have to make it where npcs near the mission would have to be as tuff or tuffer than what you would find in a pvp area.
But why? You STILL have not given me an answer to this.
The second freakin' reason: It absolutely wouldn't offend ANYONE if it didn't include PVP. Move the mission to Dathomir, and everyone would be happy. The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel.
I dont think so, again if the devs had to move the mission, they would have to make the mission as tuff or tufferthen it would be found in the pvp area.
Why? And what don't you think? That the only people upset would be people looking for easy kills? If you are going to make that statement, back it up with something. Who esle could ever be offended or unhappy about a move?
So again you are not looking at why the devs placed the mission in the pvp area in the first place.
Neither are you, BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHY.
The third freakin' reason: It doesn't even contain PVP, all it does is to make people a PVP target. A target that can get their ENTIRE mission progress nullified by ONE hit. What is this supposed to do? What's the point of this?
Right, the mission doesnt contain any pvp. And you dont have to pvp ether. you can always hyperspace out if a pvp player comes to attack you,
No, you can't. That equals a failiur on the first mission, so it's not a viable option. You should know this by now.
but wait. you wont know if an enemy is a pc or a npc will you, well thats is the chance you will have to take.
Your point?
The fourth freakin' reason: It serves no purpose. No one has YET been able to say WHY this is such a good idea. All I hear is "blah, blah, Challenge". "Blah, blah, blah, grow balls". "Blah, blah, blah, PVP is the best of the best" etc.
How do know it doesnt serve a purpose?
Because it doesn't! If you think that it does, then state what the purpose is and why this is such a good idea?
The only purposes I have been suggesting so far are not actually valid choices due to one thing or another. Examples: It does not work to promote PVP, and can only do quite the opposite since you are in effect forcing people into a playstyle they despise. They won't like PVP more after their mission is ruined through it. It does not work to promote the GCW or to give it a purpose, since we've still not got much to fight over. And if that were the purpose, why are freelancers involved? It does not work to provide a challenge, not better than PVE could ever do anyway. So what is it's purpose?
Ask yourself this, why did the devs put the mission in the pvp zone in the first place? Well i think the devs did it to perpair ppl for the new content they get after they get master, which is another pvp zone to play in.
If the developers did that because of the reason you state, they are fairly clueless. You can't force someone into a playstyle they dislike. It's not good for the overall picture, it's not good for the game. They have already proven this once, and the empirical evidence suggests that it doesn't work. (The empirical evidence beeing the entire hologrind era).
The fifth freakin' reason: SWG players have been promised that PVP will be optional. As it is now, that is not true in JTL. Hell, not even neutral pilots can get away from it.
It is optional, you can chose to go in and do the mission , or you can chose not to.
It's not optional, nor is it forced. How can I state this? Sounds alot like a paradox, doesn't it? Well, simple: This all depends on personal views. Most people will view this as forced, since they want that master box. They need that master box to enjoy their newly bought expansion to the fullest.
The sixth freakin' reason: (And this ties in with reason five) It's more or less mandatory, since a 4-4-4-4 pilot might just as well not buy JTL.
Its not mandatory to have the master title, that is a choice a player desides to have.
Se above answer.
The seventh freakin' reason: It does not promote PVP. All it does is to increase the chasm between PVPers and PVEers.
You dont know if it DONTpremote PVP.
Yes I do, actually. Empirical evidence suggests that it doesn't. Just look at all the threads we had in beta about this, and just look at all the threads we have about this now. Look at all the people frustrated and angry because they can't do their missions due to PVP deaths. Look at all this and ask yourself if it promotes PVP or not. Then start looking for posts by players who previously hated PVP, but who now love it due to these missions. I'll wager that you will not find any posts of that kind, and even if you would they would be far outnumbered by the other type of posts. The conclusion is: It does not promote PVP.
The eight freakin' reason: This one issue was very frequent on the Top 5 issues threads we had during beta. In fact, by my guesstimation it was on about half of all posts in the very last issues thread. This means that fairly many of the beta testers wanted a change. This also was evident in the threadwhere 4-4-4-4 pilots and master pilots discussed these missions.
It was in the top 5 issues because ppl didnt like it plain and simple. and if it was about half of all posts, that means that there is about half the ppl that didnt think it was a problem.
And you don't find it strange that half the people absolutely hate something so much that they thought it was one of the top issues with the entire game? And you don't find it strange to even argue that these people, who absolutely hate these missions, are not right? Can you actually say that this is NOT an issue? Especially when you had almost no one who had tested these missions speaking up for them and praising them? The fact that some people had no problem with it is irrelevant. Had they stated that they LOVED the missions, that wouldhave been relevant.
There are at the very least EIGHT good reasons to move to a PVE area, pretty much all of them do justify a move in their own right. However there are ABSOLUTELY no good reasons for the mission to stay yet. Not even you can seemingly point out any reason, yet you are quite adamant that they should not be moved? Why?
I think the devs had a good reason why they had place the mission in the pvp area.
And that reason is? Back this up with some evidence, please.
You have no hard eveidenc that it should be moved.
There are already people posting about how bad these missions are, that's evidence enough. There are already reports of people starting "grief squads" to kill all opposing would-be masters, that's evidence enough. There is nothing that supports these missions, that's evidence enough. There are already innocent people being called griefers, that's evidence enough. Do I need to go on, or are you stubborn enough to stay in your corner and argue?
All your saying is it should be move to convinience you.
That's not what I am saying at all, but we have already been through your reading comprehension. I'm saying that these missions must be moved for the good of the game. The very same reason as to why I argued against the FRS system that was implemented with the Jedi revamp.
The devs had a reason, you just need to find out why.
Nope, I don't need to find out why. They can't think up a reason that would outweigh all the reasons for a move. Neither can you, obviously.
All evidence points towards that these missions must be changed. Nothing points towards that the missions should remain the same. Why should they remain the same?
Again you just need to find out why the devs have it there, but then again if they flat out tell you, you still will deny the answer and then you will screem more that it should be moved.
As long as they can't state a valid reason, I will argue for a change. And they can't really state a valid reason that would outweigh a reason for the move. How could they? These missions are currently hurting the game, same as the FRS system, same as the hologrind. How can you ever think that you will be able to justify that?
What's the purpose?
Maybe the mission is there toprepare ppl for the new content, which currently is another pvp zone.
Why would they need to prepare people for optional content. They have already said that PVP in JTL will be optional. Why would they need to prepare the broad masses for this?
When the first real PVPer gets called "a griefer" for killing someone in Kessel, too much damage has already been done. This has probably even happened already. Or is this something good by your standards?
Well Bounty Hunters get called griefers when they hunt down a jedi all the time. But there not griefing, there just doing there job.
And that's a good thing in your eyes? Do you actually even think something good can come out of people getting called griefers when they are not actual griefers?
And anyone who goes into a pvp zone knows they are able to be attacked by other players, so in fact its not griefing.
BUT IT WILL BE PERCIEVED AS GRIEFING BY SOMEONE WHO HATES PVP. Get that into your head already. Why in the name of all that you can name are you even arguing? Why would ANYONE prefer a system where someone rather innocent can be called a "griefer" just because they wanted to enjoy some PVP in a PVP zone? The only logical thing is to move these PVE missions and leave the PVP zones for pure PVP. Not even you can argue against this.
When the first person complains that they are forced into a playstyle they hate, too much damage has already been done. This happened a long time ago now. Or is this something good by your standards?
The only time the damage is done is when they refuse to accept the conditions of the area there playing in.
Of course they refuse to accept that it's a PVP area. THAT'S PART OF THE ENTIRE POINT. Just the fact that they have to do this in their eyes is reason enough for a move.
If they know the area is pvp and deside to go if they want to or not, that was there choice.
Again: That's entirely personal. For them, it might not be a choice. For you it might be. The fact is: PVP is mandatory for the master box. The master box is an important part of the professions. staying at Tier 4 leaves you with a mostly useless expansion.
If they get shot or killed by another player, than that was there choice, and if they cry out griefer, then again it was them for not accepting the conditions of the area they where in.
You just can't see it, do you? You just refuse to see it, do you? If they call out "griefer" it has already gone too far. Can't you even agree on the fact that they would not call out griefer if these missions were moved. Can't you even agree on that we would be BETTER OFF if these missions were moved?
So this all boils down to, it is a choice for a player to go do the mission or not. The devs set the mission standards, it is up to the player to deside to do it or not.
And it's also up to the player to complain if they dislike what the developers do, they can't just expect us to bend over everytime they do a change that is hurting the game. And you already know what I've said about that "choice"-bs.
Moving these missions should logically not offend anyone, only people who can be offended are actual griefers looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel. Or are you here to defend these people?
Are you tying to saying pvp players are griefers in the kesel area?
Are you back at this again? You can't simply let that silly notion go, can you? Read this again, out loud this time: NOT ONCE DID I STATE THAT THIS APPLIES TO ALL PVPers IN KESSEL. NOT ONCE. You made that connection, not I. Real PVPers should care less if these missions were moved, if they don't, then yes, they are most likely griefers looking forward to easy targets.
if you are playing in any area, wouldnt you be hunting for all the easy targets?
And your point is what? And no, I sure wouldn't do that. Nor would a huge bunch of people. If that statement was strictly true, people would fight meatlumps not Krayts in the ground game.
But wait, in a pvp area you really cant tell who is easy or tuff. So are you just blatently calling any player in a pvp area a griefer?
That's one of the dumbest arguments you've done so far. How did you even come up with such a moronic statement? First off all, the statement is contradicting itself: If you can't tell how tough someone is, how can they then be looking for easy targets and being griefers? Second: You are drifting very much off course in your quest to put words in my mouth. NOT ONCE HAVE I EVER MADE THE CONNECTION THAT ALL PVPERS = GRIEFERS. That is what you keep saying, not me. Real PVP players would care less if these "carebears" weren't in the area, why would they even want to kill someone who fights back? No, the only people who would are looking for easy targets and not actual PVP.
Just try and remember, its not griefing if you are in a pvp area where ppl can shoot at each other.
Again: That's your connection, not mine. Sheesh.
There is no griefing if a pc is just randomly killing the enemy.
If they are just randomly killing the enemy, then they are not looking forward to easy targets. Therefore the statement is pretty much not valid for them. They are not griefers.
Most of the time a person says their griefed is because they refused to accept the conditions of the area they where playing in and then turn around and complain about it, plain and simple.
Your point? This has got absolutely nothing to do with the topic. The topic is about the people who would get pissed when these missions are moved from the area. Not about what griefing is or is not. You are drifting very, very much of course in your quest for putting words in my mouth. The people saying that they are griefed are very much unconnected to the people who can get upset by a mission revamp.
So get the word griefing out of your head and stick to why the mission should be moved.
I should get it out of my head, huh? You keep bringing it up, not me. Also, you didn't answer my question. Are you actually here to defend these people who would be upset if the missions changed? Are you, yourself, upset at the thought of these missions being changed? If so, why? Prove me wrong: The only people who could ever be upset about these missions being revamped/moved would be people looking forward to easy targets.
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Something tells me I should probably just stop arguing with you right here. Such a statement is rather humorous, and quite frankly, I can't believe than anyone would thing that it's true. You are quite wrong here, the AI can not make a similar choice as the players can. An AI can NEVER EVER make a concious choice. Not until "real" AI is invented anyway. Even someone who is a dumb as a stump can make choices better than an MMO-AI could ever do, the AI can only "act" according to a bunch of set parameters after analyzing abuch of set variables. They can't think ahead. They can't have any moral aspects to their choices. So no, you are quite wrong here. Players and AI are not similar, you can't possibly even suggest this.
What do you think the npc faction system is for. This is a way for npc to ether like you, ignor youorhate you.Just like a person can like, ignor or hate you. But a npc can make a choice like a person. it can even help fight an enemy with you if you are in good faction with them, just like a real person. You been playing long enough to know this.
How can it be different if some one wants to attack you, they just attack.
Again: The difference is that an NPC MUST attack (or take any other action that is set by their coding), they don't have any choices at all. Players can do whatever they wish. I'm starting to think that you are just arguing because of arguments sake.
No, a npc can chose to attack or not, thats why the devs put in a npc faction,
But why? If PVP and PVE is so similar, why would the PVE mission need to be sooo much harder (Similar to the DWB, I believe you said. With endless waves of super though ships, I believe it was)? Why?
Why dont you ask the devs? Look at where the devs put the mission in the first place. it was placed there for a reason. If it gets moved out to the pve area, the devs would have to make adjustments to make it as tuff as a pvp zone or even tuffer.
You see ppl are smart enough to find targets easyier to kill so they dont get killed if there fighting them. So just moving the mission to a pve area without making adjustments then everyone and there brother would finish the mission with ease.
No they won't. There were plenty of people who had lots of troubles with these missions during beta. Even when there were no PVPers around in Kessel.
It sounds like the ppl complaining where trying to do the mission solo. Dont you think they where suposta have some help?
If the devs wanted that, they would of put the mission in a pve area, but they didnt. The mission is to be tuff.
You don't know this. I don't know this. For all we know, this might just be a wet dream of whatever developer designed it. It might just be a way to promote PVP. It might just be a way to (try and) give purpose to the GCW. It might just be a way of adding challenge. Quite frankly, we don't know what the purpose was. Because of their ability to tip-toe around this subject and their silence, I would wager that their goal was to promote PVP.
Sorry, i dont think so. The devs have to plan out what they put out in the game. The mission was placed in the pvp zone for a reason. Well if you where going to bet money, you might win 1/3 the money, one part would be for tuffness/challenge, 2 would to prepare ppl for the new content which is a pvp zone, and 3 promote pvp. There might be more, but these are the most noticable.
So again if they move the mission to a pve area then the npc would have to be tuffer to ether match the players you will find in a pvp area or even stronger then what you would find in a pvp area.
But why?
Ask the devs.
First of all: The radar is not even sufficient for this, you WILL have to frequently target everyone within your 5k range to see if they are either players or npcs.
No you dont, you dont have to target all players or npc's, just target the ones coming at you. The size of the dots will get bigger if there getting closer to you.
Get serious, you can't keep track of that at all times while trying to fight/dodge fire. Besides, when the dots starts to grow, you are most likely too late anyway. It's really quite simple to understand: To know who and which ones are heading towards you, you will need to target them. You will need to target a bunch of "dots" in a busy fight with many nearby players and NPCs within 5k. Heck, to know which ones are players or not you will also need to target them.
Yes i can, and so can many. with practice you can to.
If the dot is big, they are already over you. So, let's say we have a radar of 30 dots. 15 white and 15 red. Five of these are actively fighting you, one is the corvette and two others are the gunboats. That leaves 8 red dots in the radar range. You can't quite possibly keep track of all of these while twisting, turning and dogfighting. When one grows, you might not even notice that since it just grew to the size of one other. You don't know which far dot is which ship, especially not while twisting and turning. So yes, you do have to target just about all ships.
Yes i can. keeping track of all that is on the radar will help keep you alive. for example, i can be fighting one or 2 of the 5 at a time, wile dodging the other 3, i will still be watching the radar to say away from the 8. Also at that time i would look for my friends and allies and try to lead some of the enemies on my tail to them so they can help get the enemy off my tail. And for knowing which far dot is what ship, that wont be a problem untill there near you, you see in a big battle you really only have to worry whats on you, but if you havent engaged in battle yet you still have a chance to check your targets.
And dont forget, to help get targets you want quicker without scrolling through all the ships. Use your target curser and aim for the area the ship is, and press x. This will help select targets around your target curser. Saves time and lets you target a passing ship fast.
You will have to dodge fire and launch CMs against the missiles fired at you while doing all this.
Yes, that is part of combat, you will have to keep tabs on all that is happening. And ppl can do this.
Get serious, read what I wrote above. You can't actually even being to state that a normal, non-super human person can do this.
I can dodge fire and launch cm's with ease. I have my 5 button mouse set up to do what i want it to do. Left click-ion canon, right click-disruptors, thumb button-cm's, and mouse wheel for missiles. My key board is set up where most of my mostly used keys are in a close area so i dont have to look down. I can keep all my attantion on the screen, and especialy the radar.
Uh, that's not howthe radarworks. If the red dots heads towards the middle, that means the target is moving up in front of you. In fact "we" are not even in the radar. The central area of the radar is what's up ahead of us.
Wrong, look at the radar again, the top half section of the radar is what is in front of you, the bottom half is whats behind you, the middle is where you are. Here is a test for you. go to an area where you wont get hurt, stop your ship. select a target off in the distance. Now just move your ship around(dont use thrusters, just move left and rignt and up and down. Look at where your target is on the radar the whole time your moving. You will see that if your looking at your target on the screen it will be tward the top of the radar, if you point away from the target, you will notice the target will be at the bottom of the radar(or where ever depending on how far you move) From this you can judge where ships are, and what direction. Now pick a target, and fly tward it, you will see the dot get bigger, now fly past the target and see where the dot goes. This will help you better understand the radar and how it works.
But again an enemy is an enemy and any that comes on the radar needs to be keeped tabs on.
And people can do this with all ships within 5k, right?
yup.
Fact: you will never know how strong a enemy is till you fight them.
That's not a fact. You can very much tell how strong an enemy might be before you fight them. For players, their ship, speed and title are tell tale signs of this. Also, you can observe their handling in combat if you have the chance. So no, you don't have to fight people to know how strong they are.
Are you saying that ppl are preparing for a battle by looking to see how strong a target is?Nope you still wont tell, a person might go in there with a mid sized ship with lvl 10 parts, just to fake you out. And if you are in the middle of a battle you have no time to see who is who, you just see a red dot and fight it, or run from it.
Fact: Yes you can see if one dot is fighting another dot with the radar. Look and see, if you have a white dot right near a red/yellow dot and there moving in a way like there chasing each other, and one of the dots dissapear, then you will know if they where fighting.
Not a fact. Red and white dots near each other, or even following each other does not mean that theyare fighting. A dot dissapearing might mean they move out of range (or your set scanning range), hyperspace away or blow up. And exactly how do you propose that people will even be able to see if two dots are "chasing" each other? And how do you propose that people will do this while they themselves are twisting and turning (which alters the radar point of view, in case you didn't know)?
Just look a the radar, you will see, if you got your game yet.
Then get friends. If it is that tuff to do, then get help. You do know that most things in this game are not to be soloed.
Again: We have been over this a multitude of times. That's not an excuse or justificationfor these missions. People will need help anyway, so stop bringing it up.
Oh, so your saying that all the missions should be soloed? Didnt i read a dev responce recently stating that there going to make sure that you couldnt solo most of the stuff in the game, yes i think i did, Well surprise, the devs already did this for JTL. Learn to get a friend to help.
Yes i can, i did it in beta and i can do it in live.
Really now? You don't even know how the radar work, how did you manage to do that?
I do know how the radar works. And how it sounds right now, your just arguing with me to pass the time. I told you how the radar works, and when you finaly get JTL, you will see that it works fine.
The number one freakin' reason: It absolutely doesn't have to be in a PVP area to be challenging. PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP.
Put it in a pve area and put tuffnpc ships around it (like a tier 6 ship, or making it like a DWB in space) then it would be challeng = PVE.
No, it would not be challenge = PVE. The Challenge = PVE statement means that challenge can only come in the form of PVE ever, since Challenge IS PVE. It would be challenging, but challenge would not equal PVE. Simple logic.
So your saying place the mission in a pve area with the rest of the regular npc ships, well sorry, i dont think the devs want that. if they did they would of put the mission in the pve area in the first place.
What you are not understanding is, the devs put the mission in the pvp area to make finishing the mission a challenge.
Yet again: You don't know this, neither do I. So stop trying to bring this up as fact. For all we know, the developers put these missions in PVP space to just to further his or hers death-toll of Players through PVP. (no, that was not a serious statement, but you should get the picture anyway. We don't actually know WHY these missions are here until we get an official statement.).
No, but i have a good idea they did what they did.
And if they had to move it to a pve area then they would have to make it where npcs near the mission would have to be as tuff or tuffer than what you would find in a pvp area.
But why? You STILL have not given me an answer to this.
Again, to make it as tuff as being in a pvp area. you really need to just ask the devs why they placed the mission in the pvp zone, dont demand they move the mission, just ask them a simple question and they might answer. Then you will know, and i will know and everyone else will know. Then you can debate your eyeballs out.
The second freakin' reason: It absolutely wouldn't offend ANYONE if it didn't include PVP. Move the mission to Dathomir, and everyone would be happy. The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel.
I dont think so, again if the devs had to move the mission, they would have to make the mission as tuff or tufferthen it would be found in the pvp area.
Why? And what don't you think? That the only people upset would be people looking for easy kills? If you are going to make that statement, back it up with something. Who esle could ever be offended or unhappy about a move?
Again ask the devs why they placed the mission in the pvp zone. I gave my answer many times already, now its your time to ask them. I gave a possible reason why the devs did what they did and you just dont like what i said because it dont fit your needs, so again ask the devs.
So again you are not looking at why the devs placed the mission in the pvp area in the first place.
Neither are you, BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHY.
Then ask the devs.
The third freakin' reason: It doesn't even contain PVP, all it does is to make people a PVP target. A target that can get their ENTIRE mission progress nullified by ONE hit. What is this supposed to do? What's the point of this?
Right, the mission doesnt contain any pvp. And you dont have to pvp ether. you can always hyperspace out if a pvp player comes to attack you,
No, you can't. That equals a failiur on the first mission, so it's not a viable option. You should know this by now.
If you bring friends, they can handle the enemy so you can keep doing the mission you went there for. Im getting the idea that you want to solo this mission, why?
The fourth freakin' reason: It serves no purpose. No one has YET been able to say WHY this is such a good idea. All I hear is "blah, blah, Challenge". "Blah, blah, blah, grow balls". "Blah, blah, blah, PVP is the best of the best" etc.
How do you know it doesnt serve a purpose?
Because it doesn't! If you think that it does, then state what the purpose is and why this is such a good idea?
Teamwork
The only purposes I have been suggesting so far are not actually valid choices due to one thing or another. Examples: It does not work to promote PVP, and can only do quite the opposite since you are in effect forcing people into a playstyle they despise. They won't like PVP more after their mission is ruined through it. It does not work to promote the GCW or to give it a purpose, since we've still not got much to fight over. And if that were the purpose, why are freelancers involved? It does not work to provide a challenge, not better than PVE could ever do anyway. So what is it's purpose?
Team up and get the mission done, thats your purpose.
Ask yourself this, why did the devs put the mission in the pvp zone in the first place? Well i think the devs did it to perpair ppl for the new content they get after they get master, which is another pvp zone to play in.
If the developers did that because of the reason you state, they are fairly clueless. You can't force someone into a playstyle they dislike. It's not good for the overall picture, it's not good for the game. They have already proven this once, and the empirical evidence suggests that it doesn't work. (The empirical evidence beeing the entire hologrind era).
Wow, if it dont work, then many online games out there are loosing money left and right. Sorry i dont think so. Just admit you just want the game in a pve area so you can solo it. Just get some help and do the mission.
The fifth freakin' reason: SWG players have been promised that PVP will be optional. As it is now, that is not true in JTL. Hell, not even neutral pilots can get away from it.
It is optional, you can chose to go in and do the mission , or you can chose not to.
It's not optional, nor is it forced. How can I state this? Sounds alot like a paradox, doesn't it? Well, simple: This all depends on personal views. Most people will view this as forced, since they want that master box. They need that master box to enjoy their newly bought expansion to the fullest.
Then just group up and do the mission, just get it over.
The sixth freakin' reason: (And this ties in with reason five) It's more or less mandatory, since a 4-4-4-4 pilot might just as well not buy JTL.
Its not mandatory to have the master title, that is a choice a player desides to have.
Se above answer.
Ya, go back and see the above answer.
The seventh freakin' reason: It does not promote PVP. All it does is to increase the chasm between PVPers and PVEers.
You dont know if it DONTpremote PVP.
Yes I do, actually. Empirical evidence suggests that it doesn't. Just look at all the threads we had in beta about this, and just look at all the threads we have about this now. Look at all the people frustrated and angry because they can't do their missions due to PVP deaths. Look at all this and ask yourself if it promotes PVP or not. Then start looking for posts by players who previously hated PVP, but who now love it due to these missions. I'll wager that you will not find any posts of that kind, and even if you would they would be far outnumbered by the other type of posts. The conclusion is: It does not promote PVP.
Sorry, these forums only have a small amount of players posting in them, and if this was such a hot topic, then why doesnt this thread have over 15 pages of complaints. We have been posting back and forth for about 3-4 pages. This just means the topic is just holding onto a sliver of life.
The eight freakin' reason: This one issue was very frequent on the Top 5 issues threads we had during beta. In fact, by my guesstimation it was on about half of all posts in the very last issues thread. This means that fairly many of the beta testers wanted a change. This also was evident in the threadwhere 4-4-4-4 pilots and master pilots discussed these missions.
It was in the top 5 issues because ppl didnt like it plain and simple. and if it was about half of all posts, that means that there is about half the ppl that didnt think it was a problem.
And you don't find it strange that half the people absolutely hate something so much that they thought it was one of the top issues with the entire game? And you don't find it strange to even argue that these people, who absolutely hate these missions, are not right? Can you actually say that this is NOT an issue? Especially when you had almost no one who had tested these missions speaking up for them and praising them? The fact that some people had no problem with it is irrelevant. Had they stated that they LOVED the missions, that wouldhave been relevant.
No, i find that there are lots of ppl that might be trying to solo the mission and cant because they get killed by a pvp player.
There are at the very least EIGHT good reasons to move to a PVE area, pretty much all of them do justify a move in their own right. However there are ABSOLUTELY no good reasons for the mission to stay yet. Not even you can seemingly point out any reason, yet you are quite adamant that they should not be moved? Why?
I think the devs had a good reason why they had place the mission in the pvp area.
And that reason is? Back this up with some evidence, please.
I already did, read the posts above.
You have no hard eveidenc that it should be moved.
There are already people posting about how bad these missions are, that's evidence enough. There are already reports of people starting "grief squads" to kill all opposing would-be masters, that's evidence enough. There is nothing that supports these missions, that's evidence enough. There are already innocent people being called griefers, that's evidence enough. Do I need to go on, or are you stubborn enough to stay in your corner and argue?
I have been reading alot of posts, but ifind that many ppl are trying to solo the mission, Just get a group and do the mission, probably wont take you long and when its done its done.
akkkkk, these posts are way to long, they are cutting into my play time. lets shorten them up a bit.
Naquiel wrote:
What do you think the npc faction system is for. This is a way for npc to ether like you, ignor youorhate you.Just like a person can like, ignor or hate you. But a npc can make a choice like a person. it can even help fight an enemy with you if you are in good faction with them, just like a real person. You been playing long enough to know this.
But it's not a choice on the NPC part, that is what you fail to see. The NPCs can't make choices because the ability to make a choice requires there to be a thought process, something AI are not capable of doing. They are just following their pre-programmed scripts, they just follow a set of rules and settings. That you interpret this as choice is pretty much irrelevant, since they lack the ability to do so. An meatlump NPC can't just stop and say "Hmm, this guy has -5000 meatlump faction, but I think I'll let him go today". A human can do that, there's a big difference here, you should be able to see this.
How can it be different if some one wants to attack you, they just attack.
Again: The difference is that an NPC MUST attack (or take any other action that is set by their coding), they don't have any choices at all. Players can do whatever they wish. I'm starting to think that you are just arguing because of arguments sake.
No, a npc can chose to attack or not, thats why the devs put in a npc faction,
No, they can't. They are forced into taking an action due to whatever scripts, settings and variables their programming entails. An NPC can't weight pros against cons, have a thought process and come to a conclusion. They can't think, so they can't really make decisions.
But why? If PVP and PVE is so similar, why would the PVE mission need to be sooo much harder (Similar to the DWB, I believe you said. With endless waves of super though ships, I believe it was)? Why?
Why dont you ask the devs? Look at where the devs put the mission in the first place. it was placed there for a reason.
And we don't know that reason yet, so your speculation is fairly irrelevant.
If it gets moved out to the pve area, the devs would have to make adjustments to make it as tuff as a pvp zone or even tuffer.
No they wouldn't. For them to have to do that, you are basing your speculation on that these missions are supposed to be tough. You don't know this, I don't know this. And even if it was, why would it have to be even tougher? Logically, it would have to be as tough.
You see ppl are smart enough to find targets easyier to kill so they dont get killed if there fighting them. So just moving the mission to a pve area without making adjustments then everyone and there brother would finish the mission with ease.
No they won't. There were plenty of people who had lots of troubles with these missions during beta. Even when there were no PVPers around in Kessel.
It sounds like the ppl complaining where trying to do the mission solo. Dont you think they where suposta have some help?
And your point is exactly what? It's quite irrelevant if they need help or if they had help. These missions are not easy either way, and everyone and their brother would not finish them with ease.
If the devs wanted that, they would of put the mission in a pve area, but they didnt. The mission is to be tuff.
You don't know this. I don't know this. For all we know, this might just be a wet dream of whatever developer designed it. It might just be a way to promote PVP. It might just be a way to (try and) give purpose to the GCW. It might just be a way of adding challenge. Quite frankly, we don't know what the purpose was. Because of their ability to tip-toe around this subject and their silence, I would wager that their goal was to promote PVP.
Sorry, i dont think so. The devs have to plan out what they put out in the game. The mission was placed in the pvp zone for a reason. Well if you where going to bet money, you might win 1/3 the money, one part would be for tuffness/challenge, 2 would to prepare ppl for the new content which is a pvp zone, and 3 promote pvp. There might be more, but these are the most noticable.
Again, we don't know what the developers had in mind when they though this mission up, we can only speculate about their intents. I have never once made any statement as to what their purpose was, but you keep saying that it's meant to be tough. The simple fact is that we can't ever know why they did this until someone of them actually starts talking. I don't expect them to do that soon, though, they didn't even wanna touch this subject during beta.
The fact that they did everything possible NOT to answer the beta testers issues about this and said nothing to counter the problems mentioned by players, I would still wager that their goal was to promote PVP.
So again if they move the mission to a pve area then the npc would have to be tuffer to ether match the players you will find in a pvp area or even stronger then what you would find in a pvp area.
But why?
Ask the devs.
No, I'm asking you. This is your statement, not the developers. You keep stating that they would have to make the mission harder had it been pure PVE, not the developers. So I am asking you: Why?
First of all: The radar is not even sufficient for this, you WILL have to frequently target everyone within your 5k range to see if they are either players or npcs.
No you dont, you dont have to target all players or npc's, just target the ones coming at you. The size of the dots will get bigger if there getting closer to you.
Get serious, you can't keep track of that at all times while trying to fight/dodge fire. Besides, when the dots starts to grow, you are most likely too late anyway. It's really quite simple to understand: To know who and which ones are heading towards you, you will need to target them. You will need to target a bunch of "dots" in a busy fight with many nearby players and NPCs within 5k. Heck, to know which ones are players or not you will also need to target them.
Yes i can, and so can many. with practice you can to.
Get serious. Really.
If the dot is big, they are already over you. So, let's say we have a radar of 30 dots. 15 white and 15 red. Five of these are actively fighting you, one is the corvette and two others are the gunboats. That leaves 8 red dots in the radar range. You can't quite possibly keep track of all of these while twisting, turning and dogfighting. When one grows, you might not even notice that since it just grew to the size of one other. You don't know which far dot is which ship, especially not while twisting and turning. So yes, you do have to target just about all ships.
Yes i can. keeping track of all that is on the radar will help keep you alive. for example, i can be fighting one or 2 of the 5 at a time, wile dodging the other 3, i will still be watching the radar to say away from the 8. Also at that time i would look for my friends and allies and try to lead some of the enemies on my tail to them so they can help get the enemy off my tail. And for knowing which far dot is what ship, that wont be a problem untill there near you, you see in a big battle you really only have to worry whats on you, but if you havent engaged in battle yet you still have a chance to check your targets.
And dont forget, to help get targets you want quicker without scrolling through all the ships. Use your target curser and aim for the area the ship is, and press x. This will help select targets around your target curser. Saves time and lets you target a passing ship fast.
Well, you are welcome to keep stating that you have super human abilities, most people won't have this though.
Uh, that's not howthe radarworks. If the red dots heads towards the middle, that means the target is moving up in front of you. In fact "we" are not even in the radar. The central area of the radar is what's up ahead of us.
Wrong, look at the radar again, the top half section of the radar is what is in front of you, the bottom half is whats behind you, the middle is where you are. Here is a test for you. go to an area where you wont get hurt, stop your ship. select a target off in the distance. Now just move your ship around(dont use thrusters, just move left and rignt and up and down. Look at where your target is on the radar the whole time your moving. You will see that if your looking at your target on the screen it will be tward the top of the radar, if you point away from the target, you will notice the target will be at the bottom of the radar(or where ever depending on how far you move) From this you can judge where ships are, and what direction. Now pick a target, and fly tward it, you will see the dot get bigger, now fly past the target and see where the dot goes. This will help you better understand the radar and how it works.
Sorry, wrong. The developers have used the classic "Wing Commander" radar here, it doesn't work like that at all.I will take a few pictures once I get back in game and write a longer reply to this in another thread, haven't got the time to do that right now. Expect it later today. What you are saying is that the radar works as the ground radar, that is not true. Once again, I will prove this in my next post (with pictures and all).
But again an enemy is an enemy and any that comes on the radar needs to be keeped tabs on.
And people can do this with all ships within 5k, right?
yup.
Givning people too much credit again.
Fact: you will never know how strong a enemy is till you fight them.
That's not a fact. You can very much tell how strong an enemy might be before you fight them. For players, their ship, speed and title are tell tale signs of this. Also, you can observe their handling in combat if you have the chance. So no, you don't have to fight people to know how strong they are.
Are you saying that ppl are preparing for a battle by looking to see how strong a target is?Nope you still wont tell, a person might go in there with a mid sized ship with lvl 10 parts, just to fake you out. And if you are in the middle of a battle you have no time to see who is who, you just see a red dot and fight it, or run from it.
That's not what we are arguing here. You made a statement that people can never know how strong an enemy is until they fight them. This is not true, and that was what I replied to. There is a possibility that you can find it out through observation. Also: You might not find out how strong an enemy is even when you fight them, they can pretty much yield. So your statement is not a fact, that is what we are arguing here.
Fact: Yes you can see if one dot is fighting another dot with the radar. Look and see, if you have a white dot right near a red/yellow dot and there moving in a way like there chasing each other, and one of the dots dissapear, then you will know if they where fighting.
Not a fact. Red and white dots near each other, or even following each other does not mean that theyare fighting. A dot dissapearing might mean they move out of range (or your set scanning range), hyperspace away or blow up. And exactly how do you propose that people will even be able to see if two dots are "chasing" each other? And how do you propose that people will do this while they themselves are twisting and turning (which alters the radar point of view, in case you didn't know)?
Just look a the radar, you will see, if you got your game yet.
See my next post, comming to a thread near you in the near future. (Just need to get in game, take some pictures and write the damn post). Will probably have to wait until after the servers are rebooted.
Then get friends. If it is that tuff to do, then get help. You do know that most things in this game are not to be soloed.
Again: We have been over this a multitude of times. That's not an excuse or justificationfor these missions. People will need help anyway, so stop bringing it up.
Oh, so your saying that all the missions should be soloed? Didnt i read a dev responce recently stating that there going to make sure that you couldnt solo most of the stuff in the game, yes i think i did, Well surprise, the devs already did this for JTL. Learn to get a friend to help.
Reading comprehension is your friend, learn to love her. That's not what I am saying, obviously. Where in the statement "People will need help anyway" do you read that I'm saying that all missions should be soloed? That's some divinging powers you've got there. I didn't even know I thought that way. Sheesh.
Yes i can, i did it in beta and i can do it in live.
Really now? You don't even know how the radar work, how did you manage to do that?
I do know how the radar works. And how it sounds right now, your just arguing with me to pass the time. I told you how the radar works, and when you finaly get JTL, you will see that it works fine.
That's not how it works, again: See my next post.
No, it would not be challenge = PVE. The Challenge = PVE statement means that challenge can only come in the form of PVE ever, since Challenge IS PVE. It would be challenging, but challenge would not equal PVE. Simple logic.
So your saying place the mission in a pve area with the rest of the regular npc ships, well sorry, i dont think the devs want that. if they did they would of put the mission in the pve area in the first place.
No, that's not what I am saying. I'm saying that your logic statement was false. Something can't equal something without actually equaling just that. Challenge can't equal PVE, because that would mean that all challenge comes in the form of PVE. You could however state that: "Challenge = PVE + X".
What you are not understanding is, the devs put the mission in the pvp area to make finishing the mission a challenge.
Yet again: You don't know this, neither do I. So stop trying to bring this up as fact. For all we know, the developers put these missions in PVP space to just to further his or hers death-toll of Players through PVP. (no, that was not a serious statement, but you should get the picture anyway. We don't actually know WHY these missions are here until we get an official statement.).
No, but i have a good idea they did what they did.
Having an idea and knowing things are completely different things.
And if they had to move it to a pve area then they would have to make it where npcs near the mission would have to be as tuff or tuffer than what you would find in a pvp area.
But why? You STILL have not given me an answer to this.
Again, to make it as tuff as being in a pvp area. you really need to just ask the devs why they placed the mission in the pvp zone, dont demand they move the mission, just ask them a simple question and they might answer. Then you will know, and i will know and everyone else will know. Then you can debate your eyeballs out.
But why would they have to be even tougher that a PVP area? I'm not disputing that it has to be as though, I'm asking why it would have to be even thougher?
Why? And what don't you think? That the only people upset would be people looking for easy kills? If you are going to make that statement, back it up with something. Who esle could ever be offended or unhappy about a move?
Again ask the devs why they placed the mission in the pvp zone. I gave my answer many times already, now its your time to ask them. I gave a possible reason why the devs did what they did and you just dont like what i said because it dont fit your needs, so again ask the devs.
What has that got to do with this question? It's completely unrelated. We are talking about the only people being upset with a mission move, not the reason to why the developers went this way. So again: Who esle would ever be offended or unhappy about a move?
So again you are not looking at why the devs placed the mission in the pvp area in the first place.
Neither are you, BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHY.
Then ask the devs.
Oh, I've done that quite a few times already. I get more information out of the brick wall next doors.
Right, the mission doesnt contain any pvp. And you dont have to pvp ether. you can always hyperspace out if a pvp player comes to attack you,
No, you can't. That equals a failiur on the first mission, so it's not a viable option. You should know this by now.
If you bring friends, they can handle the enemy so you can keep doing the mission you went there for. Im getting the idea that you want to solo this mission, why?
Stop trying to distract from the subject. The fact that you can bring friends is completely irrelevant for this purpose. Why would that even begin to justify the fact that these missions are designed so that one hit can ruin them?
How do you know it doesnt serve a purpose?
Because it doesn't! If you think that it does, then state what the purpose is and why this is such a good idea?
Teamwork
Sorry, not valid. Teamwork can be done as good, and possibly even better with a PVE solution. You have to think up a purpose as to why this has to be a PVP solution, you have to think up a reason as to why this can never ever be a PVE solution.
The only purposes I have been suggesting so far are not actually valid choices due to one thing or another. Examples: It does not work to promote PVP, and can only do quite the opposite since you are in effect forcing people into a playstyle they despise. They won't like PVP more after their mission is ruined through it. It does not work to promote the GCW or to give it a purpose, since we've still not got much to fight over. And if that were the purpose, why are freelancers involved? It does not work to provide a challenge, not better than PVE could ever do anyway. So what is it's purpose?
Team up and get the mission done, thats your purpose.
Sorry, not valid. See above.
Ask yourself this, why did the devs put the mission in the pvp zone in the first place? Well i think the devs did it to perpair ppl for the new content they get after they get master, which is another pvp zone to play in.
If the developers did that because of the reason you state, they are fairly clueless. You can't force someone into a playstyle they dislike. It's not good for the overall picture, it's not good for the game. They have already proven this once, and the empirical evidence suggests that it doesn't work. (The empirical evidence beeing the entire hologrind era).
Wow, if it dont work, then many online games out there are loosing money left and right.
What other online games force people into playstyles they dislike? And things being bad for the game does not equal loss of money, even though that can be the very end of it. Entire professions were all but destroyed by the hologrind. The fact that these professions are small by nature does not quite justify the hologrind and the wrongs it did.
Sorry i dont think so. Just admit you just want the game in a pve area so you can solo it. Just get some help and do the mission.
Nope, I want the mission (Don't know where yougot the "game" from)in a PVE area so that PVP will be completely optional and not required for anything like this. There is no sense in it, there is nothing good that can come of it.
It is optional, you can chose to go in and do the mission , or you can chose not to.
It's not optional, nor is it forced. How can I state this? Sounds alot like a paradox, doesn't it? Well, simple: This all depends on personal views. Most people will view this as forced, since they want that master box. They need that master box to enjoy their newly bought expansion to the fullest.
Then just group up and do the mission, just get it over.
Did you run out of arguments? That pretty much proves that you can't even begin to justify this. Teaming up is not a valid response, since that will most likely be needed anyway. There is no way teaming up can justify the fact that these missions makes people who hate PVP into doing a strictly PVE mission in PVP space. There is no way teaming up can justify the fact that there is nothing good that can come out of these missions.
You dont know if it DONTpremote PVP.
Yes I do, actually. Empirical evidence suggests that it doesn't. Just look at all the threads we had in beta about this, and just look at all the threads we have about this now. Look at all the people frustrated and angry because they can't do their missions due to PVP deaths. Look at all this and ask yourself if it promotes PVP or not. Then start looking for posts by players who previously hated PVP, but who now love it due to these missions. I'll wager that you will not find any posts of that kind, and even if you would they would be far outnumbered by the other type of posts. The conclusion is: It does not promote PVP.
Sorry, these forums only have a small amount of players posting in them, and if this was such a hot topic, then why doesnt this thread have over 15 pages of complaints. We have been posting back and forth for about 3-4 pages. This just means the topic is just holding onto a sliver of life.
No, we killed this thread by our argument. There's pretty much just the two of us in it. There are other threads, there are even quite a bunch of deleted rants and threads on the subject. Now, try and find threads that suggests the opposite, that PVE players started to actively PVP due to these missions, see if you can find threads where PVE players state that they love PVP after getting killed while doing these missions. There's your evidence. As long as the complain threads far outnumber the (rather non-existant) praise threads, there is evidence that suggests this will promote PVP. And in fact, as long as just one person is turned away from PVP, it kinda proves that it doesn't promote it very well.
It was in the top 5 issues because ppl didnt like it plain and simple. and if it was about half of all posts, that means that there is about half the ppl that didnt think it was a problem.
And you don't find it strange that half the people absolutely hate something so much that they thought it was one of the top issues with the entire game? And you don't find it strange to even argue that these people, who absolutely hate these missions, are not right? Can you actually say that this is NOT an issue? Especially when you had almost no one who had tested these missions speaking up for them and praising them? The fact that some people had no problem with it is irrelevant. Had they stated that they LOVED the missions, that wouldhave been relevant.
No, i find that there are lots of ppl that might be trying to solo the mission and cant because they get killed by a pvp player.
Please. At the very least, give me decent replies and arguments.
I think the devs had a good reason why they had place the mission in the pvp area.
And that reason is? Back this up with some evidence, please.
I already did, read the posts above.
No, you did not. You were speculating and you said you had a "good idea". That's not evidence.
You have no hard eveidenc that it should be moved.
There are already people posting about how bad these missions are, that's evidence enough. There are already reports of people starting "grief squads" to kill all opposing would-be masters, that's evidence enough. There is nothing that supports these missions, that's evidence enough. There are already innocent people being called griefers, that's evidence enough. Do I need to go on, or are you stubborn enough to stay in your corner and argue?
I have been reading alot of posts, but ifind that many ppl are trying to solo the mission, Just get a group and do the mission, probably wont take you long and when its done its done.
Get over the teamwork issue, that's not in any way a valid justification for the missions.
Naquiel wrote:
Wrong, look at the radar again, the top half section of the radar is what is in front of you, the bottom half is whats behind you, the middle is where you are. Here is a test for you. go to an area where you wont get hurt, stop your ship. select a target off in the distance. Now just move your ship around(dont use thrusters, just move left and rignt and up and down. Look at where your target is on the radar the whole time your moving. You will see that if your looking at your target on the screen it will be tward the top of the radar, if you point away from the target, you will notice the target will be at the bottom of the radar(or where ever depending on how far you move) From this you can judge where ships are, and what direction. Now pick a target, and fly tward it, you will see the dot get bigger, now fly past the target and see where the dot goes. This will help you better understand the radar and how it works.
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Wrong, look at the radar again, the top half section of the radar is what is in front of you, the bottom half is whats behind you, the middle is where you are. Here is a test for you. go to an area where you wont get hurt, stop your ship. select a target off in the distance. Now just move your ship around(dont use thrusters, just move left and rignt and up and down. Look at where your target is on the radar the whole time your moving. You will see that if your looking at your target on the screen it will be tward the top of the radar, if you point away from the target, you will notice the target will be at the bottom of the radar(or where ever depending on how far you move) From this you can judge where ships are, and what direction. Now pick a target, and fly tward it, you will see the dot get bigger, now fly past the target and see where the dot goes. This will help you better understand the radar and how it works.
Hello, and welcome to the course "How the radar works, 101". I'm your professor, Vicotnik. First, we'll take a look at this image: Clicky.
This is the basic radar overview, slightly enlarged and with a few letters added. According to Naquiel, these letters would mean the following:
A) The area where "we" are
B) The area of what's in front of us
C) The area of What's behind us
D) Our sides
Now, this is a flawed view on how the radar works. What Naquiel describes is a strictly 2D radar, like the one in the ground game. This type of radar only shows one "plane", so to speak. You can't quite see what altitude (in reference to your own) the other "dots" are. And if you could, that would be the size of the dot. This is not a correct view, in fact it's very wrong. The JTL radar is in fact a 2D representation of a 3D radar. Think of it as a globe that has been flattened. The areas then are:
A) What's in front of us. The absolute center is what's exactly in front of us, the further away from the center you go, the closer you move to the other areas.
B)What's above us. The further you go from the center, the more the target is behind us. (and in fact, the actual edges are what's behind us. More in photographic proof later on)
C) What's below us. Same rules apply as with area B.
D) Our sides, same rules apply as with area B.
Now look at this picture, it shows the corellian space station at quite some range, but still it is dead center in our radar. It's straight ahead. Had Naquiels interpretation of the radar been true, it would have been in "the area around us". Image: Clicky. Had his interpretation of the radar been correct, the space station should actually have been in area B.
Now another picture, shows the same thing: The station is closer now, but still dead center. Clicky LINK.
A few more pictures to prove my point, look at the relation of the space station and it's location on the radar. Look for instance at the direction arrows to the waypoint and the location of the radar "dot" on this picture: Clicky.
The station is now almost directly behind us. Look at its location on the radar The station is now below us, again look at its location on the radar Station is above us here, look at the radar loaction Notice how the station is ahead and to the right of us here, and the corresponding radar location.
You forgot something, spacestations are much bigger and they have a bigger dot on the radar, in this case for your test you didnt have to be far from it to fill the center of the radar. And you pretty much said everything i told you what the radar did. And you point was? Oh and when your taking pictures for this test, please let ppl know that your useing the camera outside the ship, but at the same time i should of told you that i am always in the cockpit of the ship. But you didnt do exactly what i said, i said to target a ship off in the distance. You didnt show what the radar is like with a target selected from far away. All you did was target the station that was up close. So in the end didnt this help you find out where the target is to where you are on the radar....i think so. Thx for doing my little test and proving me right, and have a nice day.
Oh, where you the one complaining about keeping tabs on ships from far away, next time you do a test, follow the instructions.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 11-04-2004 08:18 AM
Naquiel wrote:
You forgot something, spacestations are much bigger and they have a bigger dot on the radar, in this case for your test you didnt have to be far from it to fill the center of the radar. And you pretty much said everything i told you what the radar did. And you point was? Oh and when your taking pictures for this test, please let ppl know that your useing the camera outside the ship, but at the same time i should of told you that i am always in the cockpit of the ship. But you didnt do exactly what i said, i said to target a ship off in the distance. You didnt show what the radar is like with a target selected from far away. All you did was target the station that was up close. So in the end didnt this help you find out where the target is to where you are on the radar....i think so. Thx for doing my little test and proving me right, and have a nice day.
Now you are just being stubborn. No, I did not prove you right. What you are doing now is quite like standing in front of a brick wall and arguing that it doesn't exist at all. Lol, get a freakin' grip and stop being so stubborn. There is plain and simple empirical evidence RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES here.
Look again, look at the second picture. The space station is 4k away, straight ahead and dead center in the radar. It's not close, it's 4k away!If the radar had worked like you said, it would have been at the top of it. So no, you are quite wrong here. You actually have no idea how the radar works! Lok at the third picture, the station is about 1k away, yet it is STILL in the same position in the radar. Give it up, you can't possibly argue about this any more. You arereally verywrong here, you will just have to accept that. You are welcome to keep arguing that you are right, and that I am wrong, but I don't think anyone would be able to take you seriously if you do. Your choice.
Using the cockpit camera or third person camera wouldn't have mattered for this purpose. I only used the third person one because the cockpit of the Y-wing is restricting. Again: It would not have mattered.
Look at all the pictures again, look at where the station is in each picture, and then look at where the dot is on the radar. It works NOTHING like you said, you will have to accept that. And furthermore, this rather makes your statement about your super human spatial awareness rather void. How can you have such good awareness if you haven't even got a clue about how the radar works! Give it up, admit that you were wrong, and people might actually be taking you seriously again.
Message Edited by Vicotnik on 11-04-2004 05:24 PM
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
But why? If PVP and PVE is so similar, why would the PVE mission need to be sooo much harder (Similar to the DWB, I believe you said. With endless waves of super though ships, I believe it was)? Why?
Why dont you ask the devs? Look at where the devs put the mission in the first place. it was placed there for a reason.
And we don't know that reason yet, so your speculation is fairly irrelevant.
And your is to, so your point is?
If it gets moved out to the pve area, the devs would have to make adjustments to make it as tuff as a pvp zone or even tuffer.
No they wouldn't. For them to have to do that, you are basing your speculation on that these missions are supposed to be tough. You don't know this, I don't know this. And even if it was, why would it have to be even tougher? Logically, it would have to be as tough.
Again, why did the devs put the mission in the pvp zone in the first place? You see the mission it self is not hard at all, but the devs wanted an element outside the mission to stop you. So if they move the mission, they would have to place npc's around it to match the conditions you would find in a pvp area. Just admit you want the mission moved so you can solo the mission. Hint: the devs want you to group up to do this mission.
Sorry, i dont think so. The devs have to plan out what they put out in the game. The mission was placed in the pvp zone for a reason. Well if you where going to bet money, you might win 1/3 the money, one part would be for tuffness/challenge, 2 would to prepare ppl for the new content which is a pvp zone, and 3 promote pvp. There might be more, but these are the most noticable.
Again, we don't know what the developers had in mind when they though this mission up, we can only speculate about their intents. I have never once made any statement as to what their purpose was, but you keep saying that it's meant to be tough. The simple fact is that we can't ever know why they did this until someone of them actually starts talking. I don't expect them to do that soon, though, they didn't even wanna touch this subject during beta.
The fact that they did everything possible NOT to answer the beta testers issues about this and said nothing to counter the problems mentioned by players, I would still wager that their goal was to promote PVP.
The devs dont like to answer alot of things on alot of subjects, it doesnt mean there not listening, but on the other hand they might want you to find out on your own the reason why.
.
That's not what we are arguing here. You made a statement that people can never know how strong an enemy is until they fight them. This is not true, and that was what I replied to. There is a possibility that you can find it out through observation. Also: You might not find out how strong an enemy is even when you fight them, they can pretty much yield. So your statement is not a fact, that is what we are arguing here.
Fine, next time your in a nice big battle being chased by the enemy, go ahaed and check to see who is tuffer or weaker, but wait, you would be dead befor make a choice who to attack. A red dot is a red dot, kill it befor it kills you.
How do you know it doesnt serve a purpose?
Because it doesn't! If you think that it does, then state what the purpose is and why this is such a good idea?
Teamwork
Sorry, not valid. Teamwork can be done as good, and possibly even better with a PVE solution. You have to think up a purpose as to why this has to be a PVP solution, you have to think up a reason as to why this can never ever be a PVE solution.
Why would teamwork work better in a pve area? Are you saying that being in a pve area will make the mission much easyier? Again it sounds like you want to solo the mission. But wait you also say that the mission is tuff enough and dont need tuffer npc's. Again it sounds like you want to solo the mission. Just get use to the fact the devs want the mission to be tuff and it will take team work. You area going to be working together to finish a goal, and that goal can be doen in ether area, so whats your point? The point is the devs wanted you to finish a mission in an area that has elements out of your control to see how good of a pilot you can be, if you want the title bad enough then you will do everything in your power to do this, even if its in an area you dont like.
Ask yourself this, why did the devs put the mission in the pvp zone in the first place? Well i think the devs did it to perpair ppl for the new content they get after they get master, which is another pvp zone to play in.
If the developers did that because of the reason you state, they are fairly clueless. You can't force someone into a playstyle they dislike. It's not good for the overall picture, it's not good for the game. They have already proven this once, and the empirical evidence suggests that it doesn't work. (The empirical evidence beeing the entire hologrind era).
Wow, if it dont work, then many online games out there are loosing money left and right.
What other online games force people into playstyles they dislike? And things being bad for the game does not equal loss of money, even though that can be the very end of it. Entire professions were all but destroyed by the hologrind. The fact that these professions are small by nature does not quite justify the hologrind and the wrongs it did.
Lets have DAOC as an example, There are at least 3 times you have to go into a pvp(rvr)zone to finish your quests. They have had this for a long time now and ppl are not quiting the game because of it. Some ppl that dont like the pvp part have chosen not to finish the quests and just where fine where at the lvl they stoped at, but there are some that asked for help and just got the quests done. You see even if you dont like it, it dont mean it cant be done, and if you chose not to do it, than again its your own choice.
Then just group up and do the mission, just get it over.
Did you run out of arguments? That pretty much proves that you can't even begin to justify this. Teaming up is not a valid response, since that will most likely be needed anyway. There is no way teaming up can justify the fact that these missions makes people who hate PVP into doing a strictly PVE mission in PVP space. There is no way teaming up can justify the fact that there is nothing good that can come out of these missions.
No, i didnt run out of debates, im just repeating what i have said over and over in the hopes you will just read what i said.
No, we killed this thread by our argument. There's pretty much just the two of us in it. There are other threads, there are even quite a bunch of deleted rants and threads on the subject. Now, try and find threads that suggests the opposite, that PVE players started to actively PVP due to these missions, see if you can find threads where PVE players state that they love PVP after getting killed while doing these missions. There's your evidence. As long as the complain threads far outnumber the (rather non-existant) praise threads, there is evidence that suggests this will promote PVP. And in fact, as long as just one person is turned away from PVP, it kinda proves that it doesn't promote it very well.
Did it ever occur to you that we havent burst out to extreames on this subject and what we have done is have a very good point/counterpoint and the devs/mods think we are doing fine. I dont think this thread is dead. Its just many are notposting becase we hit all the major points that other posters wanted to post about.
Please. At the very least, give me decent replies and arguments.
Why, you havent.
No, you did not. You were speculating and you said you had a "good idea". That's not evidence.
And your justification is not just another good idea ether? You can say that moving the mission out of a pvp justifies things, but then again thats your good idea.
I have been reading alot of posts, but ifind that many ppl are trying to solo the mission, Just get a group and do the mission, probably wont take you long and when its done its done.
Get over the teamwork issue, that's not in any way a valid justification for the missions.
Oh, soyou are saying that ppl should be able to solo the mission then?
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
You forgot something, spacestations are much bigger and they have a bigger dot on the radar, in this case for your test you didnt have to be far from it to fill the center of the radar. And you pretty much said everything i told you what the radar did. And you point was? Oh and when your taking pictures for this test, please let ppl know that your useing the camera outside the ship, but at the same time i should of told you that i am always in the cockpit of the ship. But you didnt do exactly what i said, i said to target a ship off in the distance. You didnt show what the radar is like with a target selected from far away. All you did was target the station that was up close. So in the end didnt this help you find out where the target is to where you are on the radar....i think so. Thx for doing my little test and proving me right, and have a nice day.
Now you are just being stubborn. No, I did not prove you right. What you are doing now is quite like standing in front of a brick wall and arguing that it doesn't exist at all. Lol, get a freakin' grip and stop being so stubborn. There is plain and simple empirical evidence RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES here.
Look again, look at the second picture. The space station is 4k away, straight ahead and dead center in the radar. It's not close, it's 4k away!If the radar had worked like you said, it would have been at the top of it. So no, you are quite wrong here. You actually have no idea how the radar works! Lok at the third picture, the station is about 1k away, yet it is STILL in the same position in the radar. Give it up, you can't possibly argue about this any more. You arereally verywrong here, you will just have to accept that. You are welcome to keep arguing that you are right, and that I am wrong, but I don't think anyone would be able to take you seriously if you do. Your choice.
Using the cockpit camera or third person camera wouldn't have mattered for this purpose. I only used the third person one because the cockpit of the Y-wing is restricting. Again: It would not have mattered.
Look at all the pictures again, look at where the station is in each picture, and then look at where the dot is on the radar. It works NOTHING like you said, you will have to accept that. And furthermore, this rather makes your statement about your super human spatial awareness rather void. How can you have such good awareness if you haven't even got a clue about how the radar works! Give it up, admit that you were wrong, and people might actually be taking you seriously again.
Message Edited by Vicotnik on 11-04-2004 05:24 PM
Again, you proved my point. And to go further, target a npc ship this time that happens to be out 8k away, and do the same tests. Since you have stated that you want to know where a target is to see if there tuff or not. i want to see your results.
You can bet this will eventually get changed. The griefers will ruin the game for the rest of the population and the mission will get fixed.
Slarus wrote:
Vic is right on the radar.
And your point is? I said that he just pointed out everything i said. But both me and vic are getting away from the main point we where disscusing and that was keeping tabs on everything on the radar and being able to judge where a target is in relation to your ship. And useing the station as a target is different than targeting a ship since the station is hard to miss and no matter if your close to it or not it fills up the radar really easy.