Jump To Lightspeed Archive

---

Slarus wrote:

How can the so called griefer be griefing in a pvp zone where ppl can shoot at other ppl. How can he be stopping a persons fun in an area where shooting at each other is the norm in that area. So again, you have no clue what the term griefer means. And the devs did not make griefing part of this game, you did by thinking it is.

It is griefing because as you most certainly know that there WILL be people who go into that zone looking for others on that mission, period not to PvP but going after master mission pilots.

Again, how do you know? Unless you can tell me how a pvp person is to know that another player in a non pvp player, or that the person is there for a mission. I want proof now. I want to see your proof that another player can tell how strong the other person is, i want proof you know they are there for there mission, i want proof they are being griefed, If you cant give proof, then you are wrong and should not even be discusing this.

So think hard now. In pve when you flying along headed to a mission, and then suddenly your attacked by an npc. he shoots at you chasing you left and right, and then kills you. Would you call the npc a griefer? You answer would be something like there is no difference and that dieing to a npc was that the ai was just a little to strong. Well guess what, its the same as if a pvp player was shooting at you. Fron dieing from a npc you learn to get up and try again and the same is if you died from a pvp event.

So get the word griefer out of your head and really look what is in front of you.

You'd love for everyone to pretend that word doesn't exsist, but the truth of the matter is, you go into a zone to fight other players that is one thing, but you go into a zone to prevent other players from doing a mission that is griefing. I never said it would be easy to to tell the two types apart, but just because you can't tell a PvPer from a griefer doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. Intent is the key, and it is easier to tell then you think. I know when someone is flying around looking for a fight or flying around looking to harass. A PvPer might if, you send a tell or broadcast a message saying your here for the master mission, break off and leave you, but a griefer will say "I'll pwn you n00b" and keep blasting away. It isn't impossible to tell who is who but it can be done. I just hope I am not on your server as I can take a guess as to which group you fall into. You are so offended by the very exsistance of the word griefer, makes ya wonder.

I never said that there are no griefers, yes the game has some, but you keep saying that any pvp player that happens to attack a non pvp player is a griefer WICH IS VERY WRONG. Give me proof, Tell me exactly how a person can tell a non pvp player from a pvp player in a pvp zone, Give me proof!!!

---

---

Slarus wrote:

Pve only, you can blame the PvE element it's part of the game, but when someone can shoot at you it adds a layer that is not included in the mission. As I said I know what kind of player you are, tell me what server I am on so I can avoid one "PvPer"

---

Message Edited by Valancey on 11-01-2004 09:15 PM

---

Naquiel wrote:

Ok, first off: Jedi is not aimed to the broad public it's aimed towards a smaller set of people, therefore it can follow "different" rules. Pilot is the core of JTL, and is thusly aimed towards the mainstream SWG subscriber. Second: Here you are with your notion that things cannot be though unless it contains PVP. Where did ANYONE state that these missions should be easy?

The why do some of my guild mates an alot of ppl i know in the game dont have JTL yet, and why do some some of them think they wont get it.

Because it doesn't interest everyone. The goal of any expansion to a MMO is to reach out to as big a selection of players as possible. If you refuse to see this, well... Get a clue. Didn't you just say you had 15+ years of experience in retail?

And what makes you think JTL is not following the same ruleset, your not a dev, you have no clue, so quit thinking you know everything.

I sure as hell know that the developers want as big a selection of people playing JTL as possible. If you refust to see this, well... Then you just lack the rudimentary intelligence of a amoeba.

And if jedi is not aimed for everyone, then why is it available for everyone to grind one out, are you saying that jedi was made spacificly for the very special few that are currently grinding out a jedi?

Completely different. What you are saying is that everything in SWG is amied for everyone. That's an argument that doesn't quite work in this context. Jedi was made specifically for the people interested in playing one. Same with entertainers, crafters and the combat professions. However Pilot IS JTL, and the developers want a big selection of people possible buying the expansion, so it is aimed towards all SWG players. In fact, why do you think it takes 0 skill points?

Yes pilot is the core of JTL, but JTL is only a part of the SWG core And i didNOT say that things are useless if it didnt contain pvp. im just saying there is no difference if the mission is placed in a pvp area, SO GET YOUR INFO STRAIGHT.

There is a huge difference. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR REAR END. I have stated the difference many times, yet you have not once stated anything that proves otherwise.

DWB is attainable by everyone, you just have to work hard to get through it. I would say that if the devs had to place the mission in a pve area the are will be a DWB in space. Maybe thats why they plased the mission in a pvp area to give ppl a chance?

Does the term "grasping for/at straws" mean anything to you? Why would it have to be a DWB in space? And no, the DWB is not attainable by everyone. Not everyone have the funds and the time it takes to commit to a successful DWB run.

Then tell us here how the devs would make the mission in a pve setting and in a way where it would not be interupted by many other ppl in the pve areas, you dont know and i dont know, but from looking at what the devs have done in the past we should have an idea of what they would do, but you dont even grasp that concept, and now you are grasping for straws.

Just move the damn mission to another sector, why do you have such a dumb notion that it needs to be *HARDER* as a PVE mission? That is your own viewpoint and invention. By looking at what the developers have done in the past, one would be able to wager that they didn't have any ideas of what to do at all. Just look at the Hologrind, the first implementation of the FRS system, the implementation of the entertainer quests (Where one of the rewards are broken). You are the one grasping for straws here, not me. You are the one claiming that the developers have some kind of grand scheme of implementation, when empirical evidence speaks against this fact.

Well lets see, ppl run in shooting, so do npc's. Some ppl keep running around wile shooting, wait the same as npc's. PPl will come up and use specials on you, but then agin so do npc's, the fact is the npc ai in the game is really not that different than players. Npc's will attack you if your an enemy, they will run from you when there about to die, just like a regular player.Npc'smay be dumb, but they act alot like a regular player.

So you are arguing here that either:

A) Players lack intelligence and can only act according to a couple of set paramenters OR

No im saying that the devs that program the AI has done a good job of making the npc's really close to what other players do, and i wouldnt be surprised if they got there ideas from watching players from the game to enhance the npc AI. But you cant grasp this concept ether can you.

You are the one completely lacking any concept of realistic thought. The AI in SWG is completely dumb and artificial. If you cannot see this, well... I pity you.

B) SOE has actually managed to create a true AI that acts like actual players.

Its the best ai i have seen in a wile, way better than fron EQ, AO, AC, AC2, DAOC, and more.

You haven't seen a lot of good AI, then.

Laughable, there is a huge difference between players and NPC's. Name one NPC that can do this for example:

1) Call on their guild for backup.

lets see some npc's are scouts and if there attacked they will run and get his friends, or did you miss this in the game, it has been in the game for awile now.

Oh, woop-de-do. One single thing that isn't even that intelligent. I've seen this in text based MUDs about ten years ago. This but much better.

and dont say its not the real thing because if it was, because if you where attacked and needed help you would run tward your friends because its faster and then they would run in and if you call for help. plus if you where alone or a small group and are hit by a strong group and did have the time to call a guild for help, most likely you would be dead befor mors guild mates would be there to the resque.

Grasping at straws again. The fact is simple: There is a huge difference between players and AI. If you refuse to see this, then I'm not sure why I'm even arguing with you. I'd have a more meaningful argument with a NPC meatlump.

2) Can actually try and predict what you are going to do.

Give the devs time and they will get it right, this is the one area that is lacking, but then there always changing things all the time.

No, they will never be able to create an AI that can predict what you are going to do. Not unless that prediction follows some rather specific parameters. The fact is crear as crystal: An AI can never ever be as smart or even similar to a real human being. This is because it is actually not intelligent. Did you actually just say that you think that the SOE developers will manage to do something no one has done yet: Create true AI?

3) Has the uncanny ability to get the most of their equipment through buffs, high end loot, power-ups and the like. (Moronic values on the NPC HAM and resists are for this purpose obviously not counted)

DWB, the corvette, the geno caves, have some good npc that could equiel a buffed person with high ham to cover for the lack of armor and buffs and what about nightsisters, they have a mass load of resist, but then again most of these npc's you cant handle to well alone.

Read what I wrote again: NPCs not following the same rules for resists and HAM is not the same as buffs and high end loot. Or are you actually stating that a player can have 250+ k HAM and 100% resists to all but Kinetic and Heat? Sure as hell sounds like it, and that's just plain ignorant.

That's completely unrelated to unpredictability. The NPCs are acting according to a set number of parameters with a few variants. A NPC can NEVER be as unpredictable as a player. And furthermore, if the "A.I." in JTL resembles the AI we had during beta the day before the servers went down, then it's just about the most predictable AI ever.

The how does a group of players react when there attacked, do they all just stad there or do they run up to a target or do some of them stay back and shoot.

Are you seriously daft? That is not the same as unpredictability/predictability. That is the damn ruleset. Some players MUST run up and fight, some MUST stay back and shoot.

Are you even playing the same game, you really have no clue of what happens in combat do you. And now i know you do not pvp at all since you cant make out that pvp and pve combat are the same.

It sure seems as I have a much better grasp than you, you're not even sure what you are talking about here. Especially since you mentioned that there was no difference between NPC/PCs and then that there was a big difference in your last post. Combat in PVP and combat in PVEis a huge freakin difference. But you don't know this, do you?

No grudge eh, i have had npc ships on me i could not shake and the only way to get away was to hyperspace. But then again i was in the wrong sector of space and the ships that where on me where way to tuff.

That's exactly what I am saying. NPC ships don't follow the same rules as the player ships, they will ALWAYS be better. Not quite logical, and it's just because SOE couldn't manage to create an acceptable AI. All they did was to pretty much boost up the NPC ships to obscene levels.

I think they have done a good job with the AI and i hope it gets better with time, but you still dont see it and you didnt read my post, go back and read it again. Now if i had a stronger ship then i might have stood a better chance of wining instead of running. Or got some friends to help protect me.

That's what you think, but not why my tests did show the day before the beta ended. I had an A-wing with all level 9-10 looted (pre mass nerf) equipment (In effect a much better ship than a player can ever own), and I could STILL not match the performance of Tier 5 NPC ships. I did the same test with "real" components, and my ship was seriously outmatched. Not even with the engine overload droid command could I even get close to their speeds. It's not a good AI, it's insane HAM, resists and weapons all over again. But then again, that seems to be the SWG way.

Why would they "just do the mission and move on"? Why do you feel it so prudent that these people are not worthy of the title?

Im not saying there not worthy of the title, im just saying that they should just get the mission done and they wont have to worry about going to the pvp area again, plain and simple, but i guess you still havent figured this out.

But it's NOT that plain and simple, which you refuse to see for some unknown reason. It's not just to "get the mission sone" when they have to enter a playstyle they maybe hate. And I still don't even know what you are arguing about. Why are you so adamant that these missions MUST be in a PVP area. You seem to state that only PVP players are worthy of the title, now you'reerasing that statement. So then WHY must these mission remain in a PVP area? You don't seem to have any real objections to moving them. And if so, why are you even arguing?

Prove it. I've already shown you the picture I took just a day or two before the beta ended. In this picture, there was no system message or any other information on the area being a PVP area. If you are going to state something as a fact, back it up, please. Especially since there is contradicting evidence.

Well when i get to 4444 pilot in a day or so, or better yet i will let a friend do it for me since he is alread at 4444 to take a pic, whould that be ok for you?

You can take a picture now, you don't need to be 4-4-4-4 to speak with the space stations. And yes, please do. If you are going to state something as true when there's contradicting evidence, you really do need to back it up with your own evidence. We won't know that it's entirely true until there is proof.

No, had it been a true choice, people would have had to know this before they started their pilot profession. (Yes, even before they bought JTL)

Then if its was not there then there is a bug, because i got the message all the time when i went to kesel and to deep space.

Prove it. I'll believe you when you prove it.

What drug are you on? I want those delusions too!

A griefer in a online game is someone who (by purpose) causes grief and ruins the game experience of someone else over and over. The fact that there are PVP zones with set rules means nothing. If someone goes into this zone with the purpose of ruining someones mission, then they are very well worthy of the title griefer. Again, before you make up more lies and twist my words: NOT ONCE DID I STATE THAT EVERYONE IN A PVP AREA WILL DO THIS. But the option is there, that not even you can deny.

Read what you posted again especialy the last part 'over and over'. When apvp player is playing in a pvp area they dont stop to see who there shooting at, there only attacking an enemy, they dont know there strong or week, they dont know if there a non pvp player, all they know that there is an enemy there that they have to destroy.

You are just getting more and more stubborn. NOT ONCE DID I EQUAL THIS STATEMENT WITH ALL PVP PLAYERS. HOW OFTEN DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THIS BEFORE YOU GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD?

But if the pvp player knew who the person was and spacificly killed the same person over and over then it would be griefing, do you under stand that now.

That was what I was saying. Sheesh. Talk about a wasted reply.

And how does a pvp player know that an enemyis there to do a mission, i would like to have there superhuman powers to tell.

It's pretty obvious. Since you have spent so much time in Kessel, you should know this. If you spot someone in a Tier 4 or 3 ship killing NPCs, attacking the Corvette. Then they are most likely doing the missions.

No, but you give people too much credit. Just because you're a good PVE player, it does not mean that you're automatically a good PVP player. The Jedi system pretty much proved this. They would be alert until they get into a fight with NPC's. They can't very well be very alert at that point.

I give ppl the credit they deserve, because i know they can do it, but you can keep saying they cant. So who is saying ppl are inferior?

I'm not saying people are inferior. I'm saying people are dumb, me and youincluded. There is a pretty good rule to follow when you are writingany form of instructions, and that rule is: "Write as if people reading the instructionsare dumb, chances are that it's true". While some people might be able to counter PVPers and might be smart enough to prepare before their missions, this is not the standard of things.

First of all: You could almost get a monkey to play their way to 4-4-4-4 (Well, they wouldn't be able to complete the missions, but that's another story) the NPC ship "AI" is just that predictable. And no, people won't be "smart enough" to find out information about the mission and the area they are going to. They haven't had any reason to do that up until the master missions, so why should they do that now? Second: How, exactly, would a PVE player go about to be prepaired for a PVP area when they have no experience of that?

When was the frirs time you went to the geno caves, did you know anything about the cave befor you got there.

Nope.

I would hope so. And how about the first time you went to the Warren, did you get lost or did you get information to helpyou get through it.

Nope, got lost but had no information. Completed the two quests anyway. Then again, I find using a sollution to a quest rather silly. If you're using some sort of pre-generated sollution to a quest, you're not interested in the quest, only the end result.

Well sometimes it takes ppl about one death in an area befor they stop and see if there is info on the area there at to hopefully get through it. And as for your second question, Its not hard to ask someone that has been there.

Asking someone who has been there is not quite getting prepared for it, but thanks for trying.

Are you doing a "Kerry" on me now? Changing your arguments and viewpoints in the middle of a thread? Or are you suddenly accepting that I never once did call EVERYONE griefers? Of course the people looking for easy kills could be counted as griefers. True PVPers would prefer the challenge. People looking for easy kills are just in it for the victory, and in effect to cause misery to other people.

Ok, i want your super human powers that letme see what players a non pvp, and how strang they are and if there entering the pvp zone for a mission, then i could be a god in pvp land, But i know this is imposible since you really not that smart to figur out that No one has the ability to see how straog a players is untill they acctuly fight,

It's fairly easy to guess, look at their type ofship, the speed they are going, their title, and you might just have got it all figured out.

and you well know no one can tell if a person is in a pvp area to run a mission, you yo well know that othere players dont know who is a pvp or non pvp player.

It's very possible to tell if someone is running a mission or not, you'll just have to study them for a bit. I could do this without much trouble when I flew around in Kessel during beta. If they are doing the missions they are usually in a tier 4 ship hunting solo spawns of TIEs or Rebel ships, or of course, following the Corvette. Also, if you fly past someone who is just flying around aimlessly, and who doesn't actually charge you, that's probably someone looking for the Corvette.

Uh, anyone fighting the Corvette and the gunboats are easy targets. In fact, anyone fighting NPCs in Kessel are fairly easy targets. I don't think you can see what I am saying, so here it is again:

If these missions were moved, who would be pissed off/upset/crying/whatever? No one except the people who wanted no challenge in their PVP kills. Got that through your skull yet?

But you still dont know, can you get the concept that you will not know, you still dont have a clue, you still think you know how ppl will react when you really dont know.

I don't know what, exactly? I sure as hell have a rather clear picture of how people would react if the missions were moved. A lot of people would not care, PVEers would cheer, and a scant few people looking forward to the easy targets would be upset.

The only time a person is a target is when they make themselves one. If you deside to go to the pvp area to do the mission, what would you do to perpare? one would to make sure you had a good ship, well stocked and ready for action, and the same for the rest of the group. Two would to plan out what you and your group is going to do. Three would to practice befor going in and try to learn some piloting tricks that will surprise the enemy. and Four, go during a time when you know its mostly clear of the enemy.

And in what reality do gamers do this? If you're trying out a new gaming experience (or maybe not even knowing that you are), are you going to prepare and study up on the subject? Not many people will do this. And again, you are slightly off topic here. You are trying to make up some strange excuse that because they can prepare for it, this mission is justified. It's not in any single way justified by this.

I know many gamers that read up on as much as they can befor going in a game, i have many guild mates that have never done the corvette befor but they have had nots on what to do when to get there. Again give ppl more credit where credit is due. PPl are smart and will find the info they need and they can get through a pvp area just to do a mission.

People are smart now? Just a few minutes ago, you did state that people were not smarter than AI. Make up your mind. And no, a substancial bulk of JTL pilots will not bother to look things up. And do you know why? Here it is: Because they have no reason to. They haven't had to look anything up prior to this, so why would they magically start now?

But THEY ARE total noobs. Someone testing something out for the first time ever is a noob by default. There is no way around this. Someone who has never tried PVP before will be very much a noob compared to real PVPers.

Maybe, but from that first experiance they would alread have the experiance from outside of the new area to help them get through. you should stop belittleing ppl by saying there not good enough. PPl will do fine, ppl learn fast and will keep going.

You are STILL not getting this, are you? Someone who hasn't done any PVPing IS going in as a total noob in the area. Especially since most of them won't even know that Kessel is THE hotspot for PVP.

Again you really need to give more credit to some ppl. Ppl are smart and will learn what they need.

No, they won't.

And you give people too much credit, or have you forgotten how it was to be a noob? I see countless threads in this forum, and hear countless things in game that proves that people are complete noobs when they try something out. How many people have you heard shouting for training in pilot skills, for example. People don't learn what they need, it's not in their nature.

You know, when ppl ask questions, especialy if there noobs, this is a good way to learn what is around them so they can understand what to expect. And let me guess, are you the kind of guy that never asks for directions when your lost?

But you just stated that they would look these things up before hand, shoutingand asking when they need training is not to get prepared ahead of time. It's in fact getting the information at the very last moment.

But what you dont understand is if it can be done in pve it can be done in a pvp area to.

I understand that, and that is very much what I am arguing against. It can be done in a PVP area too, but not as well as in a PVE area. In the PVP area you WILL end up offending some people, that will NEVER happen in a PVE area.

Oh i think some ppl offend ppl in the pve areas quite well, for example, befor the devs fixed space missions there was a problem of kill stealing and still some ppl are annoying and offending ppl by them just shooting at someons ship just to drive the other person crazy, but for a pvp area, being offended only comes from not knowing the rules of the area, once ppl understand they wont have a problem with it.

Kill stealing is not possible anymore, that point is moot. Getting shot at by a pathetic ninny for no damage is in no way the same as getting your entire mission ruined. "It's that plain and simple".

We obviously know what you like too, seems thatthrough your unhealthy fixation with the word "griefer" and the fact that you think that everyone in the PVP areas will be upset if these missions are moved... You must be one yourself. Feels funny when people place words in your mouth, doesn't it?

Now your putting more words in my mouth.

Well, duh. I stated that quite blatantly.

1. You dont even know what the devs are giong to do and thats where i said it MIGHT come up.

I know that they won't be dumb enough to add the same thing to the ground game.

I guess we will wait and see wont we.

Don't have to wait, we know the answer already.

2. You dont know if they will loose subscribers.

Everything they do will make them loose subscribers, hell I even know peoplewho havethreatened to quit because the "combat rebalance" will make them loose their uberness.But if you make changes to a PVP optional game that goes against this, you WILL loose subscribers at an accelerated rate.

Accelerated rate?, I dont think so.

Why? State why if you're going to try and make a coherent argument.

3. you dont know if having the mission in a pvp area will fail.

Yes I do, since I know that they won't work in the end. But since we have already settled that you lack the ability to think ahead, here is a brief explanation: For every day that goes by since the realease of JTL, more and more people will become masters. The more masters there are, the harder the master missions will be. Now think ahead one year (Yeah, I know you lack that ability, but humour me), think about the numbers of PVPing masters there will be now. Done? Yes, now consider how absolutely frustrating, gamebreaking and hard the missions will be. No, I know not all masters will PVP, but the numbers ofPVPing masters will increase to the point where there is no more room for masters.

Well, having missions in a pvp area in DAOC worked just fine, Also in alot of other online games i have played.

DAOC and other MMOs are not SWG. I could care less about DAOC and how it works, wasn't PVP a very big part of DAOC from the get go? With realm wars and whatnot? The fact here is that in SWG, a game based around PVE to about 90%, this will NOT work. Especially not when it's a required part of the game.

What makes you so sure that it will totaly fail?

Read my reasons in a post not far, far away from this one in the very same thread.

And as you state above(the bold text), ppl that do get there can find others that will be going into the pvp area to do there mission, and they can help each other, and if alot of ppl are doing it this fast then there is going to be no problem finding said help.

But the help will not be enough when the area reaches a critical mass of people who have completed the mission. Space is small, and with just a few PVPers in the zone, they will be over you in a few minutes at best.

And as for humoring you, i thought i did fine a few times, or was that fake laughs and chuckles you posted in past posts.

No, those were very much real. But I'm not laughing with you...

4. I dont have a fixation of the word griefer, but you sure have a way of not saying it in long winder statments, and i never said everypvp player is a griefer, i said that you think that every player is a griefer and i was proving you wrong., and

You were proving me wrong? All you did was to twist my words into your own fabricated lies and means.

5. i never said i liked pvp, i pvp on rare occasions, and know how pvp works.

Do you? You seem fairly unable to decide if players are different from NPCs or not. You're pretty much all over the place here...

Did i ever tell you how much i have pvp'ed in the past, No, i dont think i said anything on how much pvp i have done, All i said is i pvp on rare occasions. Get your facts straight.

My facts? This was a question if you knew how PVP works, which you obviously don't. It was NOT a question about how much PVP you, your grandmother or your pocket lint has done in the past.

But you come along and say that the ppl playing on kesel will be sad that if the missions are moved to a pve area they would not have easy targets,

No, that's not what I said, and you know it. Not once did I equal the people playing in Kessel to the people in that statement. The statement was, and I quote: "The second freakin' reason: It absolutely wouldn't offend ANYONE if it didn't include PVP. Move the mission to Dathomir, and everyone would be happy. The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel". Or are you going to read things that are not there again?

But thats the question, who are you talking about that will miss easy targets in kesel? would it be griefers, would it be just pvp players themselves, what. Just admit you where talking about griefers.

Of course I'm talking about griefers in this statement, I've said so all along. It was YOU however, that made the connection that "all pvp players; all players in Kessel are griefers". I have not once made any statements on who or how many the griefers are. This is just a statement about the people who will be upset with a move of the missions. Or are you going to say that other people will get upset too?

No, your wrong because you dont know, The whole time i have been here i been trying to tell you that you really dont know what will happen, you have it dead set in you mind that ppl will not enter a pvp area, because of the fear that they might get greifed, that is plain and simple.

Now you are fabricating stuff again. Not once have I stated that people won't enter a PVP are because of fear. In fact, I spent many hours arguing against the "fear issue" with Cuality in this thread (or a similar one, I forget). And yes, I know just about what will happen. These missions will not work in the end due to several reasons, one being human nature. Nothing good can come out of these missions, so they will be changed sooner or later. The question is just how long it will take, it took SOE long enough to realize that the hologrinding was too destructive for the game.

then why do you want the missions moved then, there has to be a purpose, the missions being in a pvp area alone is not justifcation to have them moved, So what is the main reason to have it move, and befor you say that you said it, just humor me and repost it here.

But it IS justification to move them, same way as it was justified to change the Jedi system due to the hologrind alone. The justification is that:

A) You are in effect making a playstyle mandatory. - Not everyone likes this playstyle and it would work just as good without this. THIS IS DESTRUCTIVE FOR THE GAME.

B) These missions would work just as well, and even better, in a PVE area. - Or are you going to dispute this with mindless rants about the DWB?

C) These missions can't possibly have any good inpact on the game, in effect they are destructive. - Prove this to be untrue, please.

D) It does not promote PVP - quite the opposite, actually. If you seriously expect this to make PVPers and PVEers come together in a group hug, or to make more PVEers into PVPers, you are delusional.

E) There is simply no justification for these missions in it's current setup. - No stating that the master box should "mean" something is not a proper justification.

Toped with the fact that ppl can survive a pvp area to get a master title.

That's going to be very hard for people who get JTL several months from now. The more PVPers who play JTL, the harder it will be to master the profession. If you feel like testing this statement: Master one pilot now, and try again in 6 months.

I dont think so, later down the road, there will be lots of master pilots that would be willing to help, there is alot of time in 6 months to get lots of master pilots.

More people to help vs more people PVPing, doesn't change anything. In fact, chances are that you will get hit anyway, even with a big group of people protecting you. The more people you stick in an area as small as Kessel, the easier it will be for people to find you.

Is it so hard for you that ppl can try, is it hard to comprehend that ppl can learn to get something done in an area beyond the normal area they play in. Dont close some of those ppl off. Give them help, let them know they can do the mission with no problem.

Are you daft? I'm trying to get them help. I'm trying to help them by moving the missions to a PVE zone. And you have yet been able to state why you are so adamant that this is wrong.

No you just trying to have a mission moved that really dont need to be.

It needs to be moved, I have proven this over and over again. You, on the other hand, have not made a single coherent justification for NOT moving them.

But why? Why would a PVE mission have to be so much harder than a PVP encounter? You are just not making any sense now.

Oh, do you think the devs would make it easy for everyone to get the master title if they put the mission in a pve area, I dont think so, they would mak it as difficult or slightly more than what you would experiance in the pvp area, because if was anything less then it would of been in a pve area.

The PVE part is still not easy. However comparing the PVE part and the PVP part to the DWB is just plain ignorant. The question remains: Why would a PVE solution need to be so much harder than a PVP solution?

You are assuming that the only reason for these missions being in the PVP zone must be because of the challenge. You don't know this. In some demented mission designers mind, he might have actually thought that this would promote PVP andmake the GCW flourish. Again, I don't know this, you don't know this. But until we do, there is no evidence at all that this is meant to be about challenge.

So what do we do to fix this, well one would to really inform the non pvp players the mission is in a pvp zone, and let them make the choice to go in or not.andanotherway is to just move the mission out of the area completely.

Yes, and that move is what needs to be done to cause as little problems as possible.

But wait there might be an alternative the devs might have put in the game to not go to the pvp area, have you noticed the 7.5 million exp a person has to learn to get a master title.

It currently means nothing, you need to do your missions anyway.

Maybe that 7.5 mill is yout ticket to mastery with out doing the final mission, did you ever think of that (well maybe since you where disscusing it in another thread and it does sone like it is a good alternative). Since we dont know yet, but right not it looks like the final mission in a pvp area could be a fast mission to mastery wile some ppl can just grind 7.5 mill exp to get their master title. I hope its true because if it is then this debate will be over.

No, I'm fairly sure that you can't "train" this skill box. But you are welcome to grind the 7.5 mil if you want. This is another issue with the professions in JTL that I'm not even going to bother to mention here.

Then its your problem, my radar works fine, and if you /bug the radar not being able to resize, then maybe the devs will fix it and it will be a better tool for you to use.

I've bugged it about a hundred times during beta, I think they got the message by now.

Players are neither your current target nor mission targets while doing these missions. What you just said is irrelevant.

No, an enemy is an enemy, any red dot on the radar is something to keep tabs on, and they dont need to be spacifily highlighted , also its good to keep tabs on the other dots on the radar. And what i did say is relivent, since the radar will show you exactly where your target is and where your mission targets are.

That is quite irrelevant since people sneaking up to attack you are not your mission target or current target.

Here you are just arguing because i just dised you so bad that you have to say that what i said is irrevelent. When you finaly get JTL loaded up, go have fun with the radar and see how helpful it is.

You didn't diss me at all, don't flatter yourself too much. You might get hairly palms. It's irrelevant because it's not relevant for the current discussion. (duh).

Wrong, the red dots flash when they hit you. Someone can be firing at you and miss for several minutes, the dots would not flash.

Thanks for the clarification, i forgot it was when they hit you the dots flash, but it still lets you know so you can react.

Considering that once a player hit you once, you will most likely be out of commision already. No, you can't react.

It takes a super human to work the radar to spot incomming players while trying to dodge two-three gunboats, a couple of TIE oppressors and aggressors while at the same time trying to get a lock on the Corvette.

I see you really cant multi task, maybe you need some more practice. The radar is so easy to use, it will help you so much.

Don't make me laugh, you haven't been in a real fight yet then, I hear. Did you ever fight in Kessel during the PVP weekend? If so, were you able to use the radar as well as you state that you can?

Yes it can be done, I'm not arguing that fact. It can be done much smoother in a PVE area, and that's a bigger fact.

But you dont know. For all we know they did what they did to not make it smoother.

Why would they on purpose make something that will make such a big part of the playerbase angry? No, chances are they didn't even think of that, which is why we are here arguing. These developers have before proven that they are not on the same wavelength as the players.

Didn't you just state that you had 15+ years of experiencein retail? 15 years and you have never once heard the expression: "The customer is always right"?

Have you ever read the expression of "The customer is always right as long as they follow the rules and guidlines of the company there dealing with. Rules and guidlines will be furnish upon request. Itsis responsability ofcustomer to follow said rules and guidlines. If failiur to follow said rules and guidlines will forfit any warrenties and claims." Welcome to 21st century.

What damn rules and guidelines? THERE ARE NO RULES AND GUIDELINES THAT ARE RELEVANT TO THIS ISSUE.Period. If the developers do something against the will of the player base, they will loose customers. Period.

---

---

lurdanta wrote:
Well, the griefing has begun, I'm told. Imp guilds on my server are organizing parties to prevent anyone but imps from mastering pilot professions. I hope the devs are happy now.

---

Really? At last.. the real galactic civil war has begun hehe.. Thumbs Up!

I bet they are happy. It was always their goal, not Sims In Space.

---

Vicotnik wrote:

---

Naquiel wrote:

And if jedi is not aimed for everyone, then why is it available for everyone to grind one out, are you saying that jedi was made spacificly for the very special few that are currently grinding out a jedi?

Completely different. What you are saying is that everything in SWG is amied for everyone. That's an argument that doesn't quite work in this context. Jedi was made specifically for the people interested in playing one. Same with entertainers, crafters and the combat professions. However Pilot IS JTL, and the developers want a big selection of people possible buying the expansion, so it is aimed towards all SWG players. In fact, why do you think it takes 0 skill points?

WRONG, all the content was made for everyone to play with, but it its up to ppl to chose what they want to play or not. Pilot was made special at o skill points so ppl wouldnt have to use there skill pointsfrom the ground game, you see the devs and ppl agreed they wanted to be in space, and not the lucky fewif it was based on the current ground skill system. But then again JTL is just a part of the swg core game.

Then tell us here how the devs would make the mission in a pve setting and in a way where it would not be interupted by many other ppl in the pve areas, you dont know and i dont know, but from looking at what the devs have done in the past we should have an idea of what they would do, but you dont even grasp that concept, and now you are grasping for straws.

Just move the damn mission to another sector, why do you have such a dumb notion that it needs to be *HARDER* as a PVE mission? That is your own viewpoint and invention. By looking at what the developers have done in the past, one would be able to wager that they didn't have any ideas of what to do at all. Just look at the Hologrind, the first implementation of the FRS system, the implementation of the entertainer quests (Where one of the rewards are broken). You are the one grasping for straws here, not me. You are the one claiming that the developers have some kind of grand scheme of implementation, when empirical evidence speaks against this fact.

Its not my notion, Its the devs, If the devs wanted the mission to be any easier, they would of put it in a pve area, but they didnt, so get this through your head, If the devs put the mission in a pve area, they WOULD place hard to kill npc ships along the path of the mission to stop you, and the npc ships might be even harder than what you would find in the pvp area.

No, they will never be able to create an AI that can predict what you are going to do. Not unless that prediction follows some rather specific parameters. The fact is crear as crystal: An AI can never ever be as smart or even similar to a real human being. This is because it is actually not intelligent. Did you actually just say that you think that the SOE developers will manage to do something no one has done yet: Create true AI?

Are you saying ppl can acctuly think, and maybe find a way to survive doing a mission in a pvp area? Didnt i say ppl are smart...but wait you said i was giving ppl to much credit. So what is it, are ppl smart enough to do a mission in a pvp zone or not, can they plan out there attack and see if they can work together with friends to finish the mission. I really think so. Now do you want to admit that ppl can do it?

No grudge eh, i have had npc ships on me i could not shake and the only way to get away was to hyperspace. But then again i was in the wrong sector of space and the ships that where on me where way to tuff.

That's exactly what I am saying. NPC ships don't follow the same rules as the player ships, they will ALWAYS be better. Not quite logical, and it's just because SOE couldn't manage to create an acceptable AI. All they did was to pretty much boost up the NPC ships to obscene levels.

I think they have done a good job with the AI and i hope it gets better with time, but you still dont see it and you didnt read my post, go back and read it again. Now if i had a stronger ship then i might have stood a better chance of wining instead of running. Or got some friends to help protect me.

That's what you think, but not why my tests did show the day before the beta ended. I had an A-wing with all level 9-10 looted (pre mass nerf) equipment (In effect a much better ship than a player can ever own), and I could STILL not match the performance of Tier 5 NPC ships. I did the same test with "real" components, and my ship was seriously outmatched. Not even with the engine overload droid command could I even get close to their speeds. It's not a good AI, it's insane HAM, resists and weapons all over again. But then again, that seems to be the SWG way.

Hmmmmm, if you couldnt out match a tier 5 ship, maybe the devs did us a favor of putting the final mission in the pvp area to have a sporting chance. Or maybe if the devs put the mission in a pve area you would see alot more of these tier 5 ships, but i dont think you would like that. I think you just want a super easy mission just to get the title, but again the devs dont want that, they want the master mission to be tuff to get, hence that is why its in the pvp area.

But if the pvp player knew who the person was and spacificly killed the same person over and over then it would be griefing, do you under stand that now.

That was what I was saying. Sheesh. Talk about a wasted reply.

Not wasted, you just finaly agreed with me what a true griefer was, Thx.

And how does a pvp player know that an enemyis there to do a mission, i would like to have there superhuman powers to tell.

It's pretty obvious. Since you have spent so much time in Kessel, you should know this. If you spot someone in a Tier 4 or 3 ship killing NPCs, attacking the Corvette. Then they are most likely doing the missions.

No, what if it was a regular pvp player that happen to be bored and decided to kill some npc's.

I'm not saying people are inferior. I'm saying people are dumb, me and youincluded. There is a pretty good rule to follow when you are writingany form of instructions, and that rule is: "Write as if people reading the instructionsare dumb, chances are that it's true". While some people might be able to counter PVPers and might be smart enough to prepare before their missions, this is not the standard of things.

How come when i read your reply i hear the voice of Vincini from the movie The Princess Bride in my head, it must be inconcevible.

and you well know no one can tell if a person is in a pvp area to run a mission, you yo well know that othere players dont know who is a pvp or non pvp player.

It's very possible to tell if someone is running a mission or not, you'll just have to study them for a bit. I could do this without much trouble when I flew around in Kessel during beta. If they are doing the missions they are usually in a tier 4 ship hunting solo spawns of TIEs or Rebel ships, or of course, following the Corvette. Also, if you fly past someone who is just flying around aimlessly, and who doesn't actually charge you, that's probably someone looking for the Corvette.

Hmmmmm, i dont think so, if your watching someone, you would be close enough to be on there radar, so the person might be on alert and ready for attack by the time you get close enough.

Again you really need to give more credit to some ppl. Ppl are smart and will learn what they need.

No, they won't.

You really have to stop saying that ppl are dumb.

then why do you want the missions moved then, there has to be a purpose, the missions being in a pvp area alone is not justifcation to have them moved, So what is the main reason to have it move, and befor you say that you said it, just humor me and repost it here.

But it IS justification to move them, same way as it was justified to change the Jedi system due to the hologrind alone. The justification is that:

First befor commenting on the lower points, i would like to point out that the devs only changed grindind all professions to useing exp from all profession to go up the fs skills, which takes longer than mastering professions(the grind is still the same but with a profession you want to play with). Jedi still have alot of exp to grind, jedi got some new attacks and specials and an frs system that is really broke.

A) You are in effect making a playstyle mandatory. - Not everyone likes this playstyle and it would work just as good without this. THIS IS DESTRUCTIVE FOR THE GAME.

Who says you have to pvp in the pvp zone, what if your lucky and no pvp players where around.

B) These missions would work just as well, and even better, in a PVE area. - Or are you going to dispute this with mindless rants about the DWB?

No you are saying the mission will be easyier in a pve area, Ask yourself why did the devs put the mission in a pvp area in the first place, and then tell me what you think why the devs did it.

C) These missions can't possibly have any good inpact on the game, in effect they are destructive. - Prove this to be untrue, please.

The mission is fine, its that you think that ppl being attacked in a pvp zone is unacceptible, but wait, ppl will be attacked in a pve area too. Again, tell me why the devs put the mission in the pvp zone in the first place.

D) It does not promote PVP - quite the opposite, actually. If you seriously expect this to make PVPers and PVEers come together in a group hug, or to make more PVEers into PVPers, you are delusional.

I didnt say doing the mission would make ppl pvpers, i just said that ppl can work together to get the mission done. But again you still dont know what ppl will do. some might enjoy what they experienced, and some will stay away.

So what do we do to fix this, well one would to really inform the non pvp players the mission is in a pvp zone, and let them make the choice to go in or not.andanotherway is to just move the mission out of the area completely.

Yes, and that move is what needs to be done to cause as little problems as possible.

No, just informing ppl that the mission is in a pvp area is fine.

But wait there might be an alternative the devs might have put in the game to not go to the pvp area, have you noticed the 7.5 million exp a person has to learn to get a master title.

It currently means nothing, you need to do your missions anyway.

Maybe that 7.5 mill is yout ticket to mastery with out doing the final mission, did you ever think of that (well maybe since you where disscusing it in another thread and it does sone like it is a good alternative). Since we dont know yet, but right not it looks like the final mission in a pvp area could be a fast mission to mastery wile some ppl can just grind 7.5 mill exp to get their master title. I hope its true because if it is then this debate will be over.

No, I'm fairly sure that you can't "train" this skill box. But you are welcome to grind the 7.5 mil if you want. This is another issue with the professions in JTL that I'm not even going to bother to mention here.

Above you say it means nothing to get 7.5millexp, and now you say you havent tried this. How do you know that getting the exp is not the alternative way of getting the master title?

No, an enemy is an enemy, any red dot on the radar is something to keep tabs on, and they dont need to be spacifily highlighted , also its good to keep tabs on the other dots on the radar. And what i did say is relivent, since the radar will show you exactly where your target is and where your mission targets are.

That is quite irrelevant since people sneaking up to attack you are not your mission target or current target.

I can still see dots on my radar. if they get closer i can alway stop fighting my current target to see what is behind me, in front of me or to the side of me. The radar works fine, you seem to be the only one with a problem.

I see you really cant multi task, maybe you need some more practice. The radar is so easy to use, it will help you so much.

Don't make me laugh, you haven't been in a real fight yet then, I hear. Did you ever fight in Kessel during the PVP weekend? If so, were you able to use the radar as well as you state that you can?

I did fight in kessel during the pvp weekend and i had some fun. I got into a battle with a person in there that lasted about 1-3 min, i kept on his tail and destroyed him, then 3 of his buddies came along and started to attack me, i did quiet well evading 2 of the playerslong enough todestroyed the 3rd befor the 2 killed me.

The second time i went i instantly died when 3 players ganged on me.

The third time i went with some guildies and went head to head with another group, we won but barly. it was quite fun.

Didn't you just state that you had 15+ years of experiencein retail? 15 years and you have never once heard the expression: "The customer is always right"?

Have you ever read the expression of "The customer is always right as long as they follow the rules and guidlines of the company there dealing with. Rules and guidlines will be furnish upon request. Itsis responsability ofcustomer to follow said rules and guidlines. If failiur to follow said rules and guidlines will forfit any warrenties and claims." Welcome to 21st century.

What damn rules and guidelines? THERE ARE NO RULES AND GUIDELINES THAT ARE RELEVANT TO THIS ISSUE.Period. If the developers do something against the will of the player base, they will loose customers. Period.

No you put out a satment about the customer is always right, I replied. And for the rules and guidelines, Im just stating that every companies have rules when they have relations with customers. These rules are in place to ease comunication with there customers. For example, you go to a store like best buy to get a tv, or camera, You get a recipt that gives you there guidelins of what you can and cant do with the purchase you made, and if you ever have to return the product. At some time ppl will want to return an item for an exchange or money, the customer has to follow rules of the store to get what they want. If the customer followed the rules they would get options from the store of what the customer can do or get from there return. If not, then the customer has to deal with the problem. Rules and guidelines, we sometims hate them, but we have to live with them.

---

---

---

Phienyx wrote:

Let me ask one question. Do you really think that this game would really represent any war or conflictif you couldjoin a military operation (Alliance/Imperial) and accomplish all there is to accomplish in relative safety? You cannot always avoid or run from a fight if you wish to accomplish your goal. At the moment, this expansion concentrates on space combat in one form or another. What difference does it really make wheather this is against an NPC or a real player? If you do not like space combat, get in your nice little yacht and just cruise around. This small percentage of the expansion that requires you to enter a PvP area is not enough to warrant this whine fest. If you do not complete this portion of the current set of missions, you are not losing anything except a title that is more about pride and ego than missing any actual game content. If youchoose not to do this portion of themissions,are not prevented from doingmuch of anything. This is Star WARS for crying out loud where people fought people, not just predictable, computer controlled AI entities.

Its ridiculous that people expect to join a game that is centered around a war, but want to engage in the combat aspect of the game in relative "safety". That very idea is obsurd. If you do not want to be attacked by players and or/NPCs stay out of combat vehicles clearly marked as such and stay out of combat areas. Its plain and simple and it is a choice you have to make.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if most of space was pvp enabled. I think that all but the basic familiarizationmissions should be in open PvP areas. Keep the WAR in Star Wars for crying out loud and get rid of all these posers.

---

You forgot one.. I'm not a Rebel Pilot or an Imperial Pilot, I'm not a part of their war. Why must I fight with them?

I honestly agree with you on the factions, I can't for the life of me figure out how I can fly around in an X-Wing or a Tie and not be attacked by other players. Granted, one of the problems with threeds like these are many people arguing many points at the same time.

My position all along has been Rebel/Imperial Pilots can do these missions, but Privateer shouldn't be required. I would also like to see you be able to train if you get the 7.5 million XP. As I never saw anyone in beta actually finish the 7.5 million (I was at 3.9 when beta ended), I cannot honestly say if you can or cannot train if you get the XP. I have been working off that assumption since that is the way all the other JTL missions work.

Myself, I'm going to finish off privateer, and I'm going to earn my 7.5 million experience. If the trainer does not offer to train me, I will submit a ticket every 24 hours until I get my master title. The master box says it requires 7.5 million experience, and when I earn it by god I want my skill.

---

Naquiel wrote:

---

Slarus wrote:

Have you been reading my posts, This is not a griefing problem. It is you thinking its a griefing problem. Learn what the term griefer means. And how do you know a pvp player is only out for power, what if there just pvping to see if they can win against an enemy, or that they are there to just test their skills. You really dont know. And about pvp players having more time, i dont think so. Alot of players platy at different times and play when they can and this is for the whole player base, not just pvp players or just pvp players, but for all players. And again how does a pvp player know that an enemy in the pvp zone is only there for a mission, You dont and if you did i would love to know your secret.

There is a difference between PvPer and a griefer. A griefer is out to show off power, to prevent others from having fun. A PvPer is someone out for the thrill of fighting a real human. It will be very tough to tell em apart seeing how the Devs made griefing the focus of this game. There will be griefing, and non-griefing that will become griefing to many due to the Devs inability to see the failures of a forced PvP system.

---

How can the so called griefer be griefing in a pvp zone where ppl can shoot at other ppl. How can he be stopping a persons fun in an area where shooting at each other is the norm in that area. So again, you have no clue what the term griefer means. And the devs did not make griefing part of this game, you did by thinking it is.

Here is what i said to vic: When apvp player is playing in a pvp area they dont stop to see who there shooting at, there only attacking an enemy, they dont know there strong or week, they dont know if there a non pvp player, all they know that there is an enemy there that they have to destroy. But if the pvp player knew who the person was and spacificly killed the same person over and over and over then it would be griefing, do you under stand that now. And how does a pvp player know that an enemy is there to do a mission.

So think hard now. In pve when you flying along headed to a mission, and then suddenly your attacked by an npc. he shoots at you chasing you left and right, and then kills you. Would you call the npc a griefer? You answer would be something like there is no difference and that dieing to a npc was that the ai was just a little to strong. Well guess what, its the same as if a pvp player was shooting at you. Fron dieing from a npc you learn to get up and try again and the same is if you died from a pvp event.

So get the word griefer out of your head and really look what is in front of you.

---

Ok, so if a PvE person (somone like me) feels annoyed or frustrated because players are shooting at me while I am attempting to do my PvE mission then I would say I had "grief".

As many have said already, yes this is a challenge but it is not a fun one to a PvE player. How can I make that assumption? Because I attempted it a half dozen times and I am a PvE player. I did not enjoy it in the least. That is one PvE person right there, and from the responses on threeds like these I don't feel I am alone.

The mission itself is indeed difficult, and a challenge. I don't need anyone to shoot at me to increase the challenge really.

If I am doing a mission I am busyfocusing on something already. I don't have time to watch the sky for the next 8K to see if a player is near by and getting closer. Since THEY are not working on a mission, they are simply looking for a player they have the upper hand. Now, if they are a master, they have better equipment. Again, they have the upper hand. When fighting a PvE ship I can take a half dozen hits before I die, easy. When fighting a player I can take what, two.

Are you following me here? Do you see why I don't consider this fun?

I might be willing to try PvP in JTL. Since it should be more balanced than the ground game, even though I generally don't like PvP. But having a player shoot at me, with a better gun, better armor, better shields, etc. While I attempt to do something else, is not fun. It's frustrating and annoying.

And in case you missed it, the big difference between a player and an NPC. The players do more damage, and they will hunt you from across the galaxy. An NPC will NOT fly 5k away to seek you out, a player will. (Yes, I know when an NPCgets agro they will chase you, I am stating that a PLAYER can make the choice from very far away to chase you down, and NPC do not do this.)

Since you mentioned it earlier in a post to me, let me answer that no, I do not know for a fact that I cannot train master when I get my 7.5 million experience. I am guessing that I can't because this is the way the rest of the missions are setup. I grant I may be totally incorrect on this. If I am, I fully appologize. I attempted to gain the 7.5 million in beta but never finished. I also tried to get a comment from a developer but could not.

But then, since this threed has bounced around a lot, let me say again I only feel that you should be able to train at 7.5 million experience and that Privateers should not be required to enter Kessel for this mission. For factioned players, it makes perfect sense. They have opened themselves up to PvPby joining a faction already. If you don't want to fight for the Rebellion or the Empire then you shouldn't be flying their ships.

---

Naquiel wrote:

---

Slarus wrote:

You'd love for everyone to pretend that word doesn't exsist, but the truth of the matter is, you go into a zone to fight other players that is one thing, but you go into a zone to prevent other players from doing a mission that is griefing. I never said it would be easy to to tell the two types apart, but just because you can't tell a PvPer from a griefer doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. Intent is the key, and it is easier to tell then you think. I know when someone is flying around looking for a fight or flying around looking to harass. A PvPer might if, you send a tell or broadcast a message saying your here for the master mission, break off and leave you, but a griefer will say "I'll pwn you n00b" and keep blasting away. It isn't impossible to tell who is who but it can be done. I just hope I am not on your server as I can take a guess as to which group you fall into. You are so offended by the very exsistance of the word griefer, makes ya wonder.

I never said that there are no griefers, yes the game has some, but you keep saying that any pvp player that happens to attack a non pvp player is a griefer WICH IS VERY WRONG. Give me proof, Tell me exactly how a person can tell a non pvp player from a pvp player in a pvp zone, Give me proof!!!

---

---

Message Edited by TheRealXur on 11-02-2004 03:04 AM

---

Naquiel wrote:

WRONG, all the content was made for everyone to play with, but it its up to ppl to chose what they want to play or not. Pilot was made special at o skill points so ppl wouldnt have to use there skill pointsfrom the ground game, you see the devs and ppl agreed they wanted to be in space, and not the lucky fewif it was based on the current ground skill system. But then again JTL is just a part of the swg core game.

That is just pure BS. AGAIN. Not all content was made for everyone to play with, most of it is targeting their own small niche of the playerbase. Each individual profession and piece of content is but a smaller part of the bigger scheme of things. If you cannot see this, then you are effectively blind. Together these pieces form larger ones that are targeting bigger audiences. However, with JTL this is not true since there's just one single profession with three different variants. The pilot professions are made to target as big a group of players as possible. The Jedi, or for that matter pikeman, professions are not.

Its not my notion, Its the devs, If the devs wanted the mission to be any easier, they would of put it in a pve area, but they didnt, so get this through your head, If the devs put the mission in a pve area, they WOULD place hard to kill npc ships along the path of the mission to stop you, and the npc ships might be even harder than what you would find in the pvp area.

Why? Back your statements up with some facts or even some speculations please. Why would they have to do that, you are not even making a coherent argument here. And since when do you know what the developers wanted to achieve with this? Since when is the official statement that these missions are in PVP space to be harder? They might as well be there for some notion that it will promote PVP. Again, Why?

Are you saying ppl can acctuly think, and maybe find a way to survive doing a mission in a pvp area? Didnt i say ppl are smart...but wait you said i was giving ppl to much credit.

Actually, you said players are completely unimaginative and can't outsmart a simple AI. And yes, you are giving people too much credit. Being smart and having intelligence are two very different things.

So what is it, are ppl smart enough to do a mission in a pvp zone or not, can they plan out there attack and see if they can work together with friends to finish the mission. I really think so. Now do you want to admit that ppl can do it?

Being smart and having intelligence enough to do thoughtout things are two completely different things. You are the one saying that players are just as dumb as AI (even though you said that the AI was as smart as the players, but that's just semantics). Can you honestly not see the difference here?

Hmmmmm, if you couldnt out match a tier 5 ship, maybe the devs did us a favor of putting the final mission in the pvp area to have a sporting chance.

Logic is not your strong point, is it? The missions are to kill tier 5 ships, how then is it a sporting chance to add the PVP?

Or maybe if the devs put the mission in a pve area you would see alot more of these tier 5 ships, but i dont think you would like that.

Again, these Tier 5 ships are in Kessel, are you really sure you have done these missions?

I think you just want a super easy mission just to get the title, but again the devs dont want that, they want the master mission to be tuff to get, hence that is why its in the pvp area.

"... And you think that players who do not PVP are quite inferior to your estemed persona. You are looking forward to killing people doing these missions." Everyone can fabricate lies and other junk statements. Me too.

Not wasted, you just finaly agreed with me what a true griefer was, Thx.

I have NEVER disagreed with you on that. Sheesh.

It's pretty obvious. Since you have spent so much time in Kessel, you should know this. If you spot someone in a Tier 4 or 3 ship killing NPCs, attacking the Corvette. Then they are most likely doing the missions.

No, what if it was a regular pvp player that happen to be bored and decided to kill some npc's.

Then with theirsuperhuman ability of spotting players, he should have logically spotted me long before that and turned to fight me, huh? Oh, are you now saying that they can't use the radar? Everyone can make up junk statements. Even Dubya.

If you spot someone chasing NPC's in Kessel, it's safe to assume that he or she is actually doing the missions.

Hmmmmm, i dont think so, if your watching someone, you would be close enough to be on there radar, so the person might be on alert and ready for attack by the time you get close enough.

The radar has a range of what is it? 8000, at about 4-5k you'll start spotting other people. Do you actually expect people to be able to keep a track of everything that happens within a globe with a radius of about 5k near them while at the same time dodging fire from gunboats, a few fighters and while trying to attack a Corvette?

You really have to stop saying that ppl are dumb.

Why? It's safe to assume that they are. If you create something that is supposed to be used by the masses, it's always smarter to assume that they are idiots and give very comprehensive instructions, than to assume that they are smart.

First befor commenting on the lower points, i would like to point out that the devs only changed grindind all professions to useing exp from all profession to go up the fs skills, which takes longer than mastering professions(the grind is still the same but with a profession you want to play with). Jedi still have alot of exp to grind, jedi got some new attacks and specials and an frs system that is really broke.

You are missing the point here: The hologrind was ruining the game, destroying the viability of a bunch of professions. The hologrind forced people wanting to be a jedi into playstyles they did not want to test. The fact that the new system might just be a grind is moot. It does not for the most part force people into playstyles they despise, nor does it ruing the viability of some of the profession.

A) You are in effect making a playstyle mandatory. - Not everyone likes this playstyle and it would work just as good without this. THIS IS DESTRUCTIVE FOR THE GAME.

Who says you have to pvp in the pvp zone, what if your lucky and no pvp players where around.

That's an ignorant statement. Kessel will be THE place for PVP in JTL. Why? Because there is no other place for it. To be that lucky, you really have to be one of the first people doing the quest, or skipping your work/school whatever and try them at an "off" hour.

B) These missions would work just as well, and even better, in a PVE area. - Or are you going to dispute this with mindless rants about the DWB?

No you are saying the mission will be easyier in a pve area, Ask yourself why did the devs put the mission in a pvp area in the first place, and then tell me what you think why the devs did it.

I don't know why they put it in the PVP area, you have read my speculations about it several times now. And no, I sure am not saying that the mission should be easier. I'm saying that the mission should be attainable by everyone and not be a destructive part of the gameplay experience. You are obviously ignoring this, and have YET been able to state one good reason for the missions to remain in a PVP area.

C) These missions can't possibly have any good inpact on the game, in effect they are destructive. - Prove this to be untrue, please.

The mission is fine, its that you think that ppl being attacked in a pvp zone is unacceptible, but wait, ppl will be attacked in a pve area too. Again, tell me why the devs put the mission in the pvp zone in the first place.

Stop pretending to be stupid, it's an act, right? I have mentioned several times why these missions are destructive to the game, you have not once even tried to prove this untrue. All you do is ask irrelevant questions about things that none of us can know.

D) It does not promote PVP - quite the opposite, actually. If you seriously expect this to make PVPers and PVEers come together in a group hug, or to make more PVEers into PVPers, you are delusional.

I didnt say doing the mission would make ppl pvpers, i just said that ppl can work together to get the mission done. But again you still dont know what ppl will do. some might enjoy what they experienced, and some will stay away.

I know what people will do, there are already posts from people doing these missions stating how bad they are. There were plenty of posts about this during the beta.There are already reports of guilds starting anti-the other faction-master squads. Do I need to continue, or are you actually going to state that these missions will improve the game? Not even you can be that ignorant.

Yes, and that move is what needs to be done to cause as little problems as possible.

No, just informing ppl that the mission is in a pvp area is fine.

I thought you were "Mr/Mrs seeing things from all sides". Yet again you prove that you're rather close minded.

No, I'm fairly sure that you can't "train" this skill box. But you are welcome to grind the 7.5 mil if you want. This is another issue with the professions in JTL that I'm not even going to bother to mention here.

Above you say it means nothing to get 7.5millexp, and now you say you havent tried this. How do you know that getting the exp is not the alternative way of getting the master title?

Because it wasn't during beta. People tried that then. I'm only fairly sure now, because I can't actually test that statement until I have got JTL myself. It is HIGHLY unlikely that they would have changed this without mentioning it in any of the patch notes.

That is quite irrelevant since people sneaking up to attack you are not your mission target or current target.

I can still see dots on my radar. if they get closer i can alway stop fighting my current target to see what is behind me, in front of me or to the side of me. The radar works fine, you seem to be the only one with a problem.

No, I'm not. But you have obviously not been in any large scale fights yet, which makes me think that you are not telling the truth about trying these missions here.

I did fight in kessel during the pvp weekend and i had some fun. I got into a battle with a person in there that lasted about 1-3 min, i kept on his tail and destroyed him, then 3 of his buddies came along and started to attack me, i did quiet well evading 2 of the playerslong enough todestroyed the 3rd befor the 2 killed me.

Four people? That's the vast extent of your "large scale JTL PVP experience"? Try it again with 15+ people and tell me if you can multi-task that well.

What damn rules and guidelines? THERE ARE NO RULES AND GUIDELINES THAT ARE RELEVANT TO THIS ISSUE.Period. If the developers do something against the will of the player base, they will loose customers. Period.

No you put out a satment about the customer is always right, I replied.

You replied with something that wasn't relevant for this case, and does not apply for this issue. The issue being that the SWG devs can't just walk all over the players, or they will loose customers.

And for the rules and guidelines, Im just stating that every companies have rules when they have relations with customers. These rules are in place to ease comunication with there customers. For example, you go to a store like best buy to get a tv, or camera, You get a recipt that gives you there guidelins of what you can and cant do with the purchase you made, and if you ever have to return the product. At some time ppl will want to return an item for an exchange or money, the customer has to follow rules of the store to get what they want. If the customer followed the rules they would get options from the store of what the customer can do or get from there return. If not, then the customer has to deal with the problem. Rules and guidelines, we sometims hate them, but we have to live with them.

And what's your point? Seriously?

That whole paragraph doesn't even apply to this discussion. We are talking about SOE not being able to walk all over their players, because that would mean that they would loose subscribers. We're not talking about rules and guidelines for returning a TV here.

---