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Thread: just a thought
PoetDancer
Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:59 pm
#170
I would argue that it is completely compromised now. Maybe its just because I came back from my two month hiatus and found not much to be exited over.A nice Yacht, and fond memories are all I really found I had.
If we look at the new proposals for Test Centre, we find that a lot of effort was made to help players "fast track" through things they feel is a waste of time: shuttleports, cantinas, etc. If we look at the "Recursive Macros are Going Away" thread, we find that players today generally do not even find the value in anything this class was supposed to stand for. They argue so hard for their second account buffers, and they are willing to fight for them over any sense of live viability. The current crop of players is clearly not interested in making this class work within a greater whole, and from all the indications I have seen, they won't allow this game to be anything other than what they want it to be...and that doesn't include us.
They claim that the cantina is just a chat room with pictures. It may be true now, but it was never that way because of us. I remember when the cantinas were a place where somebody could figure out what they were going to do for the entire day.
And when at one time I felt truly that the developers were intent on protecting this profession from thedesires of players that do not want to "live the greatest Star Wars saga ever told," I feel now they are catering to that very demographic. And that type of demographic wants to fast track through the content that takes a long while to achieve, beg for more content, get mad at things that prevent the fast tracking of content, leave before they pay too much in monthly fees, and perhaps sell their jedi and make a little money on the side.
The last real "new content" I did was back in the Fall of 2003 when I did "Cries of Alderran Part 2." I did no Corvette, no Death Watch Bunker. I have no jedi. I have neverslayed a Krayt by myself. The last Player Versus Player action I did was back about one year ago. Unbuffed. I had fun doing that, but I doubt I'd have fun now.
Iaccepted my lot in this simulation with all the difficulties within. Twice. I made the very, very best of the class as I could by myself, and with others. I lovingly supported this rich world. Paid my fees. Did my part to make it all work. Where's my recompense for making sure everybody else could get to and from the Corvette, the Death Watch Bunker, Aurilia, the Nightsister Cave, their base, and their content?
I'll tell you what I get. I get hit with buffbots, changes that help buffbots, nerfs to the timesinks that I thought were my job to make more interesting, and rumors of the developers taking this class into a direction where the players I lovingly and gleefully supported for all those months "need not interact with me." Hutt Casino? The more I think of it, the more I envision it as a retirement home for entertainers. A place where they can stick us and have us spend the rest of our days not having to bother or be bothered by all the other players doing "important things."
It takes a different type of player today to enjoy the game. And I have to admit, I do not like to be around that type of player, nor do I like the kind of game they play.
The types of things the developers are going to have to do to bring this class into a position of playability are the very things they can't do without a bigpublic relationsmess. Because they are going to have to take away a lot of the conveniences the playerbase as a whole find worse than death. To fix this class, we need less mobility between world. Less mobility between content. They are clearly not interested in that. And no matter what they'll tell Delia, they'll never make this class condusive to our benefit, but rather do everything that is condusive to our customers' benefit, and expect us all to "take it or leave it." To fix this class, we need strong protocols against unattendednce. That does not seem to be a priority. The types of players they are attracting do not seem to be interested in making it work, they seem to only be interested in making it work for them, and perhaps their guilds.
And I'm not saying they shouldn't cater to that demograpic if they truly do believe it is in their best interests to do so. But then I shoudn't expect to have the type of game play I had before: the rich, character-driven, roleplay friendly, and exploit free experience I had before.I am afraid that theinmates "truly" are running the assylum now, and all the ones who would support the original vision of this game have left.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 02-05-2005 08:37 PM
TheSillyOne
Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:02 pm
#171
I did a poll on the starsider forum and just copy pasted from the other poll (hope ya don't mind but i wanted to make sure i didn't slant the wording). Folks seem very interested in the idea of a bit of social content.
I find the whole discussion very interesting. Here's the thread from Starsider.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Starsider&message.id=382075
Ikewe
Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:45 pm
#172
PoetDancer wrote:
I would argue that it is completely compromised now.
I have to agree. Just a few short days ago I would have told you I was doing everything I could in hopes of making this profession viable once again. That is was just a matter of time before we were once again a valuable part of the community. But with each passing day I saw it slip further and further into the Inferno. Buff Bots and afktainers are essentially 0 Skill Point entertainers. Their puppet masters have other templates that allow them to enjoy the game they wish to play while their bot generates income. As a dancer I used to feel that my role was appreciated by those who wanted to use those 15 skill points for novice entertainer on something else. They came to the cantinas and were relieved beyond words that someone else was there. Someone who wanted toinvest those skill points. We were helpers and healers. Those days are gone. And they are gone for good. Now we have become an annoyance. We are not needed and we are not wanted. Occassionally someone may throw us a bone by requesting "entertainment" for a function but how many entertainers can that really keep active?
Ikewe, Master Rifles Shadowfire (*former Master Dancer)
AudioOrgana
Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:14 am
#173
Ka_ren wrote:
One thought I has was for non entertainers to be able to purchase a basica dance step. I think if there could be more dancing between the dancers and the patrons, it would make the cantina a lot more interesting. I imagine a lot of full dance cards too.
I've wanted this since beta.
Just a few dance steps for non-dancers that do NO healing and give NO benefit other than just being able to join in at a cantina. People can't /watch you, but they can watch you - you know what I mean? 
AO
Maisland
Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:25 am
#174
I don't think that we should be a 0 SP profesion, however, I wouldn't mind a SP reduction... just enough to allow me to make my dream Ultimate Entertainer (Master Dancer, Entertainer, Image Designer & Musician) even if it required that character to have no skills from any other base profesion.
Gknee
Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:19 am
#175
LeBob wrote:
I think we should wait until after the revamps to decide whether or not Entertainer is dead.
I agree..because *I* don't think it is. If they cheapen the profession by letting everyone do it....I don't know what I'd do..probably drop it...
Schardour
Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:32 am
#176
I wouldn't necessarily equate the removal of skill point requirements with this grim picture, but it would certainly place our playstyle in a low-priority position. However, if, at some point, our combat/entertainer interdependency is completelycompromised and ourposition in the gamebecomeslargely social, I would probably advocate such a change, regardless of the complexity of our mechanics, extensiveness of our abilities, or depth of the profession.
Xyrdre wrote:
I'd feel that the potentialdepth of having a persistent world outside of the narrow view of combat, and the crafting to support it, would be lost.
Schardour
Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:34 am
#177
Schardour wrote:
However, if, at some point, our combat/entertainer interdependency is completelycompromised and ourposition in the gamebecomeslargely social, I would probably advocate such a change, regardless of the complexity of our mechanics, extensiveness of our abilities, or depth of the profession.
And to clarify, I'm not opposed to this scenario, as long as the additional content we receive outweighs what we've lost.
Ramona_Garcia
Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:09 am
#178
Frankly, the only ones to benefit from reducing entertainer skill costs to zero are the combat guys who want to be able to dance as well. Essentially, they want to be able to all without sacrificing anything. True entertainers would be devalued immensly by this, since in the eyes of the fighters they could do what we do as well.
Give the fakes a basic dance step, and let them dance at parties if they want - some already make do with emotes. Heck, give them another /dance emote.
But don't wreck our profession just so a few combat characters can take up dance again. They chose fighting over dancing, and that was their decision. We choose dancing over fighting (or, to be more precise, we choose to spend 106 skill points in dancer or musician, and the rest in other skills, some of which allow us to be decent fighters), and that was our decision.
Don't reduce the decision to what fighting skills I want, and make dancer skills a freeby.
LyteFoot
Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:51 am
#179
Ikewe wrote:
PoetDancer wrote:I would argue that it is completely compromised now.I have to agree. Just a few short days ago I would have told you I was doing everything I could in hopes of making this profession viable once again. That is was just a matter of time before we were once again a valuable part of the community. But with each passing day I saw it slip further and further into the Inferno. Buff Bots and afktainers are essentially 0 Skill Point entertainers. Their puppet masters have other templates that allow them to enjoy the game they wish to play while their bot generates income. As a dancer I used to feel that my role was appreciated by those who wanted to use those 15 skill points for novice entertainer on something else. They came to the cantinas and were relieved beyond words that someone else was there. Someone who wanted to invest those skill points. We were helpers and healers. Those days are gone. And they are gone for good. Now we have become an annoyance. We are not needed and we are not wanted. Occassionally someone may throw us a bone by requesting "entertainment" for a function but how many entertainers can that really keep active?Ikewe, Master Rifles Shadowfire (*former Master Dancer)
My experience is just the oppossite. I find that a lot of players do enjoy what we do. The past two days a bunch of us have been playing in the street outside Theed cantina on Corbantis. There have been 3 to 6 musicians and 5 to 10 dancers at various times and it has been going on pretty much continuously. One big long party where we each come and go as usual but outside instead of inside. We have had a couple of dweebs make stupid comments or do something lame but mostly we have gotten praise and surprise at how good it all works (it doesn't hurt that 5 of us have master combat profs too
). The dancers have the room to truely dance as a synchronized unit out there. They have performed popular, poplock, exotic, basic, and formal. One of the dancers has the best timed formal routine I have personally ever seen and when 6 dancers are in a huge circle performing it the display is simply stunning. Combat players have stopped, watched, asked why they weren't healing, and then said one minute I'll be right back. They run inside to get healed by an afker and in 30 seconds are back to spend five or more minutes just watching and listening. Not one or two players but literally 10's of them over the past two days.We have made a point to be available for buffing since there hasn't been anyone in the cantina buffing, live or bot. One of the dancers and musicians will step away and go inside to buff a person then return. This is even working better than buffing from where we play inside the cantina because it differentiates the act of entertaining and buffing. The combat player can see that we are having to break from our fun and our game to help them with their game. It hasn't increased the tips but it has increased the politeness and appreciation of these players.
Even more interesting has been the reaction of some of the newer entertainers. Most of the group has been masters and we have all known each other a while. There have been a few newer entertainers come and go and you can tell the entertainers from the grinders. They are always surprised that we are more than happy to change the dance or song to fit their level. The few who join then turn on their spam macros are politely told not to do that in this group. They either comply or promptly disband and return inside to become another zombie. This is fine by me because we are showing those entertainers that live entertaining is possible and viable and forcing them to make a concious decision on what they want to do. Inside it is just too easy to be just one more zombie, outside with us they stand out and have to make a decision.
So no do not take away the skill points. I don't care how much they are shortening all the choke points because it is still possible to entertain and there are plenty of places to do this where traffic is good, our game mechanics are not functional (i.e. healing and buffing), and people can see how good true entertaining can be. A lot of people play this game and we only need a small percentage to appreciate what we do to get satisfaction and positive feedback in spades.
TheSillyOne
Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:29 am
#180
Oh, and just a heads up to anyone who checks out the Starsider poll---we have more than our fair share of trolls. Please don't feed them, they only get worse.
Schardour
Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:55 am
#181
So, how about zero skill point costs for Entertainer, but start the costs at the elite professions? 
Panthu
Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:35 pm
#182
Schardour wrote:
So, how about zero skill point costs for Entertainer, but start the costs at the elite professions?
Ooh, that might be cool. I've thought about moving more of the "art" down into Ent before so people could reach it early on or without so much investment, leaving all of the "functional" aspects to those of us who want to make this our primary Prof in the elites. I've never thought about just charging for elites though.
It might support the idea that party/event stuff would be in the Novice Ent boxes and Career type function and gameplay would be in the Elites. I actually think that would be a helpful distinction to make for future development purposes. A real break like that would show who should be just looking at it for Social fun and who should be looking at it for primary gameplay.
That way there at least would be an expectation that Elite Ent should be a viable form of full time gameplay, like Combat or Crafting. There has been confusion about what to do for people who just want to "have fancy emotes and a 3d chatroom" that this might help clear up. People who bought into the elites then would be expected to be looking for "function" and "full gameplay" out of these Profs.
Hmmm...