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Thread: just a thought
LeBob
Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:40 pm
#157
I think we should wait until after the revamps to decide whether or not Entertainer is dead.
Drygo
Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:05 pm
#158
There's a lot to comment on here.
I'll start out by saying first that I would be very much against entertainer being a 0 skill point profession. When I started dancing, I made a conscious decision that this was who I was going to be. I made a "sacrifice," if you will, to go the road less travelled, to be unique, to mold my character as a certain type of person. The idea that just anybody off the street can be a dancer, or musician is not even realistic, imo. If I were a politician, I'd be pretty po'd that the skill points were reduced to 0. But, there is some difference in that, even if everybody *were* a politician, you'd still only have a very select few people playing the role of politician because there are only so many cities that need mayors. There's still some specialness about being the mayor of a city. So, in the end, it works out ok. But, it's not the same for dancers and musicians. If everyone else on the server was a Master Dancer, then...well, I would feel like all the work, and the sacrifice that I've put into this has been all for nothing. I'm no longer special. I can no longer "wow" the people at starports or in Cantinas because everybody else can do the exact same thing as me, mechanically at least. It would feel like such a devaluation of something that I've put a lot of work into, something that I have taken up at the expense of not having skill in other areas. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well. But, put it this way. If I think the buffbots make me feel worthless, making our professions 0 sp would make me feel even *more* worthless. No longer special, no longer known as a Dancer. It strips away the identities of the people who put their blood, sweat, and tears into making a name for themselves as a dancer. I truly believe that one of the reasons that people come to see live performances (I mean, there's some sort of party with a house band every night of the week on Kettemoor), is because they want to see and experience something that they cannot do. Will people actually come see us and remark favorably to our performances if they can do the exact same thing?
Now, as others brought up, I *would* like to see every single player have the opportunity to learn one dance...basic, so that everyone can dance at a cantina or "club." This dance should have no healing benefits at all. For that, you pick up novice entertainer. But, people *should* be able to participate in dancing at a party if they want to. It's unrealistic to think that the music is playing and over half the audience can't even do a basic, dorky dance. But, the ones who invest in the future and skillpoints should *definitely* be able to dance better than those who don't.
To the point of fun vs. functional. Well, I also agree with many who say that the skillpoint investment to become a master dancer or master musician is way out of whack for it's functionality. The amount of things that people can do, and money they can make as a TKM far outweighs that of Master Dancer, and it costs less skill points to do so. While, I do *not* want to see the entertainer professions be reduced to 0 skillpoints, I do think it's reasonable to cut the amount of skillpoints needed. Strip away the entertainer healing line, and give us 14 more points to use elsewhere, while at the same time improving our functionality. Have the novice entertainer healing increasein the dancing and musician lines. I don't know exactly what to put in place of the entertainer healing line. But, I would use the Artisan profession as a model. For example, you have three lines in Artisan that directly lead to the elite crafting professions. The last line is surveying...not something you *need* but something that can be fun and profitable in it's own right, as well as give the Artisan advantages of acquiring the resources they need. That fourth line in Entertainer could be things that help with entertaining but are not required. Some kind of improved /register functionality...some kind of advertising functionality, perhaps a bonus to healing that would not be required to advance to the elite professions. But, it is clear to nearly everybody that the skillpoints needed to invest in master dancer or master musician is way off balance compared to its functionality.
And, lastly, while I definitely would like to see more things added to fun (props, more dances, effects, etc.), I just want to reiterate the point that we need something that connects us to the rest of the game. As I've said before, it doesn't necessarily have to be healing and/or buffing. And, it doesn't have to be something that is required. It could be something that is simply wanted. We already have some professions that are like this that can be used as a model. Tailor, for example. It's not needed, but we all know it's a fun profession, with a fairly decent clientele that wants to buy the tailor's products because they are *fun* for the purchaser. ID is like this as well. Even to some extent, architect. Yes, certain things are "needed," like guildhalls. But, there's a lot of things that architects build that people want simply because it's fun, such as furniture. And people will continue to buy these things. Architect may not be as lucrative as, say armorsmiths or weaponsmiths. But, many architects, tailors and IDSare in it for the fun and can at least count on some income. That's the way I think Entertainer should be. I have no qualms with us being on the lower end of the income spectrum. However, I want us to at least be able to make *some* income that we can count on because people want our services. Buffs were supposed to do that. Of course, that ended up being a failure...(but I'll just interject here, that I don't think it would've been a failure if there were no afk macros in the game, and when they are removed, then perhaps it will work for us the way it was intended.) But, as I said, it doesn't have to be buffs, and it doesn't have to be deemed as "necessary" by the masses like the buffs are. It could simply be something that people want, like clothes, furniture, and new hairstyles.
The only problem with my little suggestion, is I haven't exactly figured out ways to make us "wanted" even though I've racked my brain many times in the past. 
I suppose one could say our entertainment is what should be wanted. And, for that, perhaps we simply need more dances, songs, instruments, effects, propsand flexibility (including the ability to place furniture on theater stages.) But, for it to work, it would have to be *really* good. Good enough that cities willingly pay for bands in their cantinas or special events. And, good enough that paying entertainers at gigs becomes the *norm.* Maybe we could be hired to teach a one or two low level dances and songs to those who don't want to invest the skillpoints in entertainer. That way others can participate in dancing at parties, and we have a service that people really might want instead of need. Maybe we, as a community, should try to be thinking up more things that the community might want from us, but not need. Things that they'd want just like they want cool clothes or a new hairstyle.
I suppose one could say our entertainment is what should be wanted. And, for that, perhaps we simply need more dances, songs, instruments, effects, propsand flexibility (including the ability to place furniture on theater stages.) But, for it to work, it would have to be *really* good. Good enough that cities willingly pay for bands in their cantinas or special events. And, good enough that paying entertainers at gigs becomes the *norm.* Maybe we could be hired to teach a one or two low level dances and songs to those who don't want to invest the skillpoints in entertainer. That way others can participate in dancing at parties, and we have a service that people really might want instead of need. Maybe we, as a community, should try to be thinking up more things that the community might want from us, but not need. Things that they'd want just like they want cool clothes or a new hairstyle.
Aynianu
Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:44 pm
#159
Personally i am strongly against the removal of skill points, I enjoy dancing, and i enjoy the respect i get as a live entertainer who chose this OVER other proffessions, That is the key really, we choose this proffession over other options. If others were able to become dancer without the same sacrifice then it would trivialise the proffession as it is, and those who choose this over others upto now.
Tralmek
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:56 pm
#160
I wouldn't support the removal of skillpoints for any Entertainment profession--it would be convenient, and allow me to add Entertainment to all of my characters, but it would bring an even lower level of respect to us than we already have.
In addition, it would create a situation where the Devs could feel justified in further ignorning the social playstyle--since it wouldn't require SP, it would have no valid claims to Dev priorities. This also would mean players of the social professions wouldn't have any claim to getting new content or money-making opportunities.
What the Entertainment professions need is a root canal, the coding needs to be ripped out and rebuilt from the ground up. Along with this we need some serious discussion with the Devs about our respective visions for the social playstyle. Personally, I think Raph Koster (Holocron)should be brought in on the discussion since our professions were his "baby" anyway, I'm certain he has some amazing ideas.
TheSillyOne
Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:14 am
#161
I haven't really thought this through very well but figured I'd throw it up here anyway to see what you guys think about it. The recently removed all SP requirements for politician. You only need xp to advance through that proffession. What if they did the same for Dance? Remove all functionality outside of RP (remove BFfrom the game and give mind healing and buffing to Docs)and remove the sp cost all together.
I think it would make for some kickin parties.
Ka_ren
Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:53 am
#162
Ohhhhhh I so /agree with you there. Dropping my dance skills is so heartbreaking.
Schardour
Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:59 am
#163
Honestly, if that were to happen, I don't believe the Entertainer professions would EVER gain any support from our peers, as it would trivialize us in their eyes. In addition to that, it's highly unlikely that we would receive any further significantattention from the developers. We would be a minority within a minority. Non-combat/non-support role-players.
kirah_ashlin
Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:49 am
#164
I worked way too hard at becoming a Master Dancer to watch my skill points and time in play reduced to meaningless numbers just so a handful of other players can "join" in the dance. Because that's all it would be - a handful. In the year and a half I've been playing I could count on both hands the number of times I heard some patron comment about wishing they could danceor pick up a slitherhorn and toot a song or two.
I would fight it tooth and nail - and if it DID happen, I'd be on the first shuttle out of this game.
LyteFoot
Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:54 am
#165
There is a lot of good feedback here. My first response was quick and brief so let me expand my thoughts.
First I like our current connection. The reduction in time from joint buffing and soon, shortened buffing is fixing the issue with "downtime". Imaji and I are very much in demand when we want to be. Corbantis has plenty of buff bots but it also has enough live entertainers that people seek us out. We also have the ability to use our mechanics purely for fun, something very few other professions offer. Just last night a group of us stepped outside Theed cantina and just played in the street. We ended up with 5 musicians (yep a full band it was great) and 10 dancers. We had a blast and got a small audience. During that same time Imaji and I left briefly to buff a DWB group on Endor and made a very good profit for the time.
Remove our healing and buffing and people will not seek us out. Soon they will forget about us and will stop seeking us out for the occassional party. Then the only people seeing performers will be other performers. If you change our functionality so that we offer something "desirable but not necessary" people won't look for us. After all in a virtual game what is desirable if it isn't necessary? Tailor is good because clothes differentiate us, it is in fact necessary. There are only so many combinations of toon features and clothes add difference and provide signals about who we are, things that people find necessary. No one wants to be a faceless slob in a crowd and clothes help make us recognizable in this virtual world. All of the other professions have some or all of their functionality required. Removing any required connection will slowly kill this profession. A few of you might dance and play just to do it but I doubt very many really would if there was zero purpose to what you do.
What we need is the removal of NPC like functionality and we all know it. What we need is more content to make the profession more fun to level. What we need is to make other professions take just as long and just as much work to level so our leveling doesn't seem so slow. I think our ties to the other professions are pretty good right now. It would be great if we could add a spy or smuggler aspect to what we do but that would be tough with today's mechanics. They made a serious mistake making JTL offer instant travel. You should HAVE to move through space to get to other planets and shuttle waits should not be a short cut for that travel. Then they should add the ability and necessity for certain commidities to move through space between planets. Give a reason to enter space other than shooting NPC corvettes. Then we could see real depth as smugglers became viable and entertainers become be a role to cover that activity. Given that this will never happen with JTL I think our current mechanics are fine just too easy to automate.
First I like our current connection. The reduction in time from joint buffing and soon, shortened buffing is fixing the issue with "downtime". Imaji and I are very much in demand when we want to be. Corbantis has plenty of buff bots but it also has enough live entertainers that people seek us out. We also have the ability to use our mechanics purely for fun, something very few other professions offer. Just last night a group of us stepped outside Theed cantina and just played in the street. We ended up with 5 musicians (yep a full band it was great) and 10 dancers. We had a blast and got a small audience. During that same time Imaji and I left briefly to buff a DWB group on Endor and made a very good profit for the time.
Remove our healing and buffing and people will not seek us out. Soon they will forget about us and will stop seeking us out for the occassional party. Then the only people seeing performers will be other performers. If you change our functionality so that we offer something "desirable but not necessary" people won't look for us. After all in a virtual game what is desirable if it isn't necessary? Tailor is good because clothes differentiate us, it is in fact necessary. There are only so many combinations of toon features and clothes add difference and provide signals about who we are, things that people find necessary. No one wants to be a faceless slob in a crowd and clothes help make us recognizable in this virtual world. All of the other professions have some or all of their functionality required. Removing any required connection will slowly kill this profession. A few of you might dance and play just to do it but I doubt very many really would if there was zero purpose to what you do.
What we need is the removal of NPC like functionality and we all know it. What we need is more content to make the profession more fun to level. What we need is to make other professions take just as long and just as much work to level so our leveling doesn't seem so slow. I think our ties to the other professions are pretty good right now. It would be great if we could add a spy or smuggler aspect to what we do but that would be tough with today's mechanics. They made a serious mistake making JTL offer instant travel. You should HAVE to move through space to get to other planets and shuttle waits should not be a short cut for that travel. Then they should add the ability and necessity for certain commidities to move through space between planets. Give a reason to enter space other than shooting NPC corvettes. Then we could see real depth as smugglers became viable and entertainers become be a role to cover that activity. Given that this will never happen with JTL I think our current mechanics are fine just too easy to automate.
Schardour
Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:40 am
#167
Although it's far from professional, and likely that most know I'm an avid supporter of entertainers, initial polling of the Chilastra forums reveals Semi-Strong Support for the idea.
But this obviously does not take into account the desires of current, professional entertainers. If Armorsmith cost nothing, I would take those skills as well.
Message Edited by Schardour on 02-05-2005 10:41 AM
TheSillyOne
Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:08 am
#168
I agree that the elimination of Skill Point cost would mean that we would no longer be a social proffession but instead dance and music would become social content. I don't really see that as being a bad thing. Sure we'd have to give up viewing ourselves as some kind of elite group of artists because everyone would have the ability to do it and we'd have to stop viweing ourselves as martyrs because we'd be able to pick up skills that would alow us to support ourselves financially as well as in combat. The trade off would be some really kickin parties.
When TC-Bria had the frogs up we had a dance party there. 20 people showed up and spent 7 hours dancing and goofing off. Of those 20 only3 had ever been entertainers on our regular server. the rest were not rp'ers. They were fighters. Some of the most hard core PvP characters from Starsider spent 7 full hours at a dance party dancing and in the end they all admited they had a blast. We had a blast because everyone was able to participate and no one was left sitting on the sidelines only able to watch.
So my point here is that, at least in my opinion, the shift from social proffession to social content would be a good thing for the "social environment" within the game.
Xyrdre
Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:45 pm
#169
Been waiting to let discussion go for a bit on this one before chiming in my own personal feelings about this, as a player, not as the Dancer Correspondent. I didn't want anyone's thinking initially to be colored by my opinion on the matter.
A profession that has a 0 SP cost really can't have any functional role in the game, or it's a freebie... getting something for nothing. A profession that has no functional role then becomes valueless; itholds no interdependencies, nor roles in the economy. It ceases to be a playable profession.
Whereas this approach may be very attractive to players with other primary interests in SWG (other than entertainment as aprofession fora significant part ofgameplay) in that they could have that many more skill points available todedicate to combat orcrafting, it cannot be good forwhat we've come to call the SocialPlaystyle as a whole. Additionally, non-functional freebie 'professions' are, I believe, incredibly unlikely to see any valuable development time to improve gameplay. It is the inherent potential of where our profession could go as a whole new form of gamingthat is of the utmost interest to me.
Removing SP costswould, I strongly believe,herald the death of the entertainer professions as viable professions,which would instead become nothing more than an elaborate set of emotes.That would be the final admission to ultimate failure in the Grand Experiment of social gameplay as a valid and marketableplaystylein SWG.
I was not personally attracted to SWG by the GCW, nor the combat system, nor the crafting system. I was attracted to that something new that was offered - a different way to play a game that I had never seen before. This new type of gameplay can exist alongside the aforementioned things - in fact, I see that as being very Star Warsy - but I did not get interested in SWG because I was just dying to get into factional battles. I wanted to give a try to living in the Star Wars universe... and I believe that there is much, much more to the Star Wars universe than combat and crafting.
All those other things are tangential to my interests. Should the entertainer professions cease to be professions, and instead become emotes as I've suggested, I would be very likely to lose interest rapidly in SWG, as I'd feel that the potentialdepth of having a persistent world outside of the narrow view of combat, and the crafting to support it, would be lost.