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Thread: just a thought
Esharra
Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:10 pm
#144
Panthu wrote:
Yeah, I think it might happen. I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I think it would be great for parties and I'd prolly spend as much time Dancing as I do now and always have. I mean, I dance emote non-stop in games w/o a Dancer Prof and I love parties and Social events, so I don't see that changing for me. It would be nice to be able to have a full Doc/Combat template or something else functional I would enjoy to support my freebie Dancer ways.
On the other hand, there's still a lot I want to see done for the Ent Profs. Will it happen if we are zero SP cost? I'm not sure.
I would sooo love this. But the selling points for me would Have to be: A.Give us a viable non-supportrole first (get rid of anything that would encourage others to substitute the real thing). B. Give us a significant role in a cross-profession content system (include us in something that would require future dev investment), preferably GCW based. C. Show me some design docs that indicate an obligation tofuture changes and improvements (I'm not going to be passified by promises).
Esharra
Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:12 pm
#145
/agree
Panthu wrote:
Maybe Combat should serve our playstyle. Maybe we shouldn't be serving combat at all, just inviting them to the party with bribes in the way of perks.
PoetDancer
Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:28 pm
#146
The way I see it, the opportunities for us in this game are quickly drying up. I used to make a fair amount of credits just dancing at the shuttleports while everybody waited. Now that there is decreased shuttle time, and no shuttle time for expansion players, my opportunities are less. But would I dare suggest something like how it will encumber my gameplay on the forums where these things are discussed? Certainly not, because I know what reception I would get.
And I just made a rather long post in another thread about informing players in the GCW about declared personalle who came into the cantina to get their statistics healed. I kid you not when I tell you that if I could pin down a few overts in a particular location, there would be guilds that would tip me for that "cantina function." Likewise, it occured to the ones who saw the cantina players do their functions that it may be in their best interests to leave a "little something" to make sure they don't get stormed by twelve players of the opposing faction in composite armour. The only reason I had thatclandestine function was because we were rare, we were live, it was a place that took a little time, and we worked for tips. But would I dare go to the boards where these things are discussed and propose that when they nerf the time it takes to heal and buff, they nerf the potential this profession may have for complex and tactical gameplay? Of course not, because I know what response I'd get. They want these things too much, because it seems to make the game easier than if they didn't have them at all.
But I have to tell you dancers. Even one minute is too long for the demanding player to wait for the shuttle. Even 80 items is too small an inventory space. Even one quarter of the time to heal wounds is too long. You have to remember who currently inhabits this game: the same ones who let the servers turn into a madhouse as soon as Monika T'sarn figured out how to unlock a jedi. And I am afraid that these sorts will never stop the holocraze, despite any developer effort to the contrary. No reduction in time sinks will ever satisfy them. Because there is always more time that can be better used.
It really kills, kills these players that they have to be nice to somebody like a dancer. And they have no conception that the time sinks they so very much despise were the very limiting factors that made the galactic civil war, the regional loyalties, the professions, and the economy so rich. One might want to spend some time at a virtual birthday party at the hotel if you knew the shuttle to Tatooine was eight minutes off, just to see who and what is going on.
I used to think that I'd enjoy being a dancer even if I had no function. Perhaps that would get rid of the buffbots, but I'd imagine what the game would be one day after any rationalle behind buffbots and our interdependence within the greater game and playerbase was removed. I'd be exited beyond belief. But what about the next day? What about in two weeks? Or a month? Or a year? Would I still be satisfied doing parties and roleplay sessions for the pure joy of the thing? I thought I would, but perhaps I am mistaken, since I never really had to seriously consider the possibility. And to tell you the truth, I'd probably find it great the first time I did it. Still great the next time I did it, and a little less great the third time I did it. Eventually, dancing without a greater context than my own joywould be more and more pointless the more I did it. Because why would anyone outside of our ever shrinking group of committed professionals add newness, depth, or change to what we did there?
Because while we and a few others would find value in a virtual birthday party, or a cantina crawl, or a contest, everybody else would think of such events as "just another time sink." And eventually, even we would see the things we did there as "just another time sink" from reality. For as much as I enjoy the fact that I can be a dancer here, the choreography, the pain, the joy, and the beauty of the real thing far outweighs any simulation of the art. And rather than virtually dance with virtual dancers in a virtual dance hall, I may rather spend my evening with real dancers in real dances in a real dance hall. Because at the point at which this game seperates the mechanical interactions from the artistic and social interactions, it seperates itself into something that has no context, no limiting considerations, and no real structure holding it all together for the sake of its "purpose" in the greater scheme of things.
...And that's about as much as I can really say as to how I'd feel about this class in the way it was described.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 02-04-2005 04:38 PM
Aleyo
Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:20 pm
#147
Some of my personal thoughts on the matter:
I'm a fan of "fun and not functional." I'd love for entertainers' interactions with other professions to be such that there are things that can be done well by someone else, or can be done well by an entertainer, but yields even better results if done together. Desirable but not needed would be my mantra.
I'm not yet sure how I feel about the idea of taking away skillpoint requirements from the entertainer professions. I certainly have some reservations about the idea, but I can also see some benefits. I personally would like to first see how it works out for politicians, as well as what our revamp brings us, before we decide what we think about that idea.
I'm a fan of "fun and not functional." I'd love for entertainers' interactions with other professions to be such that there are things that can be done well by someone else, or can be done well by an entertainer, but yields even better results if done together. Desirable but not needed would be my mantra.
I'm not yet sure how I feel about the idea of taking away skillpoint requirements from the entertainer professions. I certainly have some reservations about the idea, but I can also see some benefits. I personally would like to first see how it works out for politicians, as well as what our revamp brings us, before we decide what we think about that idea.
Panthu
Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:21 pm
#148
Sirii! /gasp
(a) Who knew you would be one to choose function in the end? Color me shocked!
(b) I party pretty hard irl, I know the two (virtual and rl) aren't mutually exclusive.
I have to go back to being shocked now. *faints*
Else-Whira
Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:06 pm
#149
I know quite a few exdancers that would take up dance if they didn't have to spend the SP for it.
One of the major problems with dancer or musician right now is that the skill point cost doesn't match the value of our profession. TK for instance uses less skill points and gives a much greater upside in game content and earning potential.
This half useful state we are in right now certainly IS NOT worth the current skill point cost. Let me ask this same question a different way... Would it kill dancer and musician if mind buffs were reduced to half their current effectiveness but our profession was made like pilot and getting the skill was a combination of Theater quest like missions and XP? Wouldn't the cantinas see more people (good or bad) in a system like that?
One of the major problems with dancer or musician right now is that the skill point cost doesn't match the value of our profession. TK for instance uses less skill points and gives a much greater upside in game content and earning potential.
This half useful state we are in right now certainly IS NOT worth the current skill point cost. Let me ask this same question a different way... Would it kill dancer and musician if mind buffs were reduced to half their current effectiveness but our profession was made like pilot and getting the skill was a combination of Theater quest like missions and XP? Wouldn't the cantinas see more people (good or bad) in a system like that?
PoetDancer
Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:06 pm
#150
Tell you the truth Panthu dear, I even shocked myself when I really thought about it.
It is like a house where you host a party. You don't bring your guests down to the cellar. Its dark, mucky, damp, not very interesting, and rather cold. But when you stop to consider that the house itself couldn't be light, clean, dry, hospitable, and warm unless that foundation was there, you soon realize how crucial a proper cellar in good order can be to your attempts at hospitality.
The mechanics are like a cellar. Its the thing that--if it is actually doing what it should be doing--allows the house that we actually live inside function well without even noticing that it is there. Today,the cellar of the dancer's house is flooded, cracked, spewing radon gas, and ruining our wine collection to the point that its all our guests today notice. Let's get the repair company to fix what is wrong with the cellar, so that we can worry about making the best use out of the house proper.
PoetDancer
Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:07 pm
#151
:
ouble post...sorry::
ouble post...sorry::Message Edited by PoetDancer on 02-04-2005 06:08 PM
Shaizann
Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:08 pm
#152
Aleyo wrote:
Some of my personal thoughts on the matter:
I'm a fan of "fun and not functional." I'd love for entertainers' interactions with other professions to be such that there are things that can be done well by someone else, or can be done well by an entertainer, but yields even better results if done together. Desirable but not needed would be my mantra.
I'm not yet sure how I feel about the idea of taking away skillpoint requirements from the entertainer professions. I certainly have some reservations about the idea, but I can also see some benefits. I personally would like to first see how it works out for politicians, as well as what our revamp brings us, before we decide what we think about that idea.
I agree with you, Scipionus. I think that we should *deffinately* wait until after this SP removal pans out for politicians. On the surface though I think it is a bad idea. No investment of skill points means no commitment to the profession in some cases. It would cheapen us even furthur as a profession. Although one would hope that we would still get Dev time, I'm not sure but that at it's worst eliminating SP is just a couple steps removed from removing us totally. Yes, I realize that may be a bit of an extreme line of thought.
I'm not sure I like 'funand not fuctional' I think the net effect would be bad as we woudl get no help from the Devs as we would then be floating about without any purpose connecting us to the game. Personally, I want a role in the game. I want to be part of the mechanics. I want to be functional in some fashion that facilitates the social and vice versa.
Also, I'd like to point out that the idea of 'desireable but not needed' is, in my opinon, not a viable way to approach our mechanics or play. The reason is because the kind of atitude the MMO environment breeds in alot of folks. The perception of many is that what ever they get to help them become accomplished in game abosltuely has to be the best they can get. Nothing less than 'uber' is worth striving for and everything else is either crap or a stepping stone to uber. It is the same type of thinking that drives the diea that only Master levelcrafter items are worthwhile. For many it would be a very black and white decsion. If we are not needed (or percieved to be needed) then we would be considered obsolete. The idea of 'desireable but not needed' does not factor into it for alot of combat folk. Now, do I think this line of thought is right? No, I don't, but you would be faced with a monumental task convincing the majority of the player base othewise.
DarkY0da
Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:22 pm
#153
Well there is a reason it sounds depressing when I wrote it. (And it's not just because I'm a pessimist)
I think that what I was looking for in these Professions, in this play style. Was not just a bunch of pretty emotes and fancy graphical sparkly shows. I expected them to be a part of the game. To be NEEDED by other People playing the game. To be sought after by other people playing the game for entertainment and shows and fun. I expected it to be a supported and integral part of the game.
If it is turning into all fun and no function then it's as useful as Holo-emotes... they were big when they first came out. And I still use them but I would bet over 90% of players don't even give them a thought. I mean they might as well at that point turn us into 0sp xp progression to nifty and cute emotes and commands. Great for RPing.... Great for a party here and there. But really in the end a waste of time for the devs to spend any real thought working on. A waste of time for 90% of the players of the game.
Right now I have 203 sp into Professions with a function. (Even if that function isn't being served by ATK players right now). But it's not JUST a function I also can entertain and have fun. (Just not very often now). Turning us into "fluff" for Girlfriends or wives (which I might add is mighty insulting to us girls that do love games and love to play them). Is just NOT an option. It's not. Like Sirii said if these turn to fluff I have an extra 15 a month I can then use to go to real concerts or plays. (And yes you can get them at 15 and under). Which as I type that makes me wonder honestly....
Why don't I do just that...?
I think that what I was looking for in these Professions, in this play style. Was not just a bunch of pretty emotes and fancy graphical sparkly shows. I expected them to be a part of the game. To be NEEDED by other People playing the game. To be sought after by other people playing the game for entertainment and shows and fun. I expected it to be a supported and integral part of the game.
If it is turning into all fun and no function then it's as useful as Holo-emotes... they were big when they first came out. And I still use them but I would bet over 90% of players don't even give them a thought. I mean they might as well at that point turn us into 0sp xp progression to nifty and cute emotes and commands. Great for RPing.... Great for a party here and there. But really in the end a waste of time for the devs to spend any real thought working on. A waste of time for 90% of the players of the game.
Right now I have 203 sp into Professions with a function. (Even if that function isn't being served by ATK players right now). But it's not JUST a function I also can entertain and have fun. (Just not very often now). Turning us into "fluff" for Girlfriends or wives (which I might add is mighty insulting to us girls that do love games and love to play them). Is just NOT an option. It's not. Like Sirii said if these turn to fluff I have an extra 15 a month I can then use to go to real concerts or plays. (And yes you can get them at 15 and under). Which as I type that makes me wonder honestly....
Why don't I do just that...?
Schardour
Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:57 pm
#154
DarkY0da wrote:
If it is turning into all fun and no function then it's as useful as Holo-emotes...
Exactly. There really needs to be an economiclink to the rest of the community to make our profession desirable in the long term. I would love to see social enhancements IN ADDITION TO the mechanics that we currently have, but would not like to see our validity completely removed by a quick decision on skill point cost. Sure, a flood of new entertainers would join us, we'd enjoy our parties for a while, but after the novelty wore off, nobody would dance any longer. There's no real benefit to PvP at the moment for the 'regular joe'. So it's dead. I can see the same happening to the entertainer professions if there's "no real benefit" and no "real exchange" between entertainers and the combat/crafting community.
DanceRulez
Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:26 pm
#155
This has been suggested before, and I still don't like the idea. As others have already mentioned, I worry that it would completely trivialize our professions if they had 0 skill cost such that there would be no point in taking them up except for pure fluff, and no point in the devs enhancing them in the future.
I think there are significant differences between our professions, and the politician profession, and there were good reasons to make the politician profession 0 SP cost whereas doing the same to ours could be detrimental. Politicians have and will continue to have an important and clearly defined support role in the game as long as there are player cities with or without a skill point cost. We still don't have a clearly defined role in the game, many people resent what role we do have and are only too happy to hand it over to player controlled NPC's, and it seems likely that whatever role we will have in the future will be changed from what it is now. Without a skill point cost, there's no incentive to give us any meaningful or important role going forward. On the other hand, Politician is more of an auxillary profession in many ways. It is only a single tree profession separate from all the others: it doesn't rely on any other professions nor does it lead to any. From what I know of it, it doesn't have any "gameplay" skills associated with it. It's just designed for support and maintenance of player cities, and outside of that has no other purpose to the game as a whole. While the player city maintenance skills may be important for one or more ranking members of the city to have, to require skill points that could be applied to professions or profession skills that are more fun and more useful to the larger game seems to be unfair. It essentially amounts to some player from the city to either create an alt or "take one for the team" to invest skill points in such a profession. Thus I think it was a good decision in this case to remove such a requirement. We at least are part of a fully fleshed out novice and elite skill tree. We have skills that are useful anywhere we choose to take them, and in whatever way we wish to use them. We can even enjoy our skills for their own sake without even applying ourselves to "game mechanics" if we so choose (starport parties, Cantina Crawls, etc.). We even have some added combat defenses that can enhance our combat prowess if we should want to take that route. I think it's right that we do have a skill point cost, and for us to be anything meaningful in this game, we should continue to have one.
I think what we really need to do is to think about the general playstyle we would like to maintain in this game, and design game mechanics that fit it. That's why I now think that mind buffing is incompatable with the kind of game we want to play. The whole mindset of the player seeking the buff is completely at odds with what we want to do. When someone wants a buff, they've already got plans of somewhere else to be, something else to do, and other people to be with. Plus they've probably already received a medical buff which is already ticking away. Anything else to them is just another time sink and nuisance that's between them and their "fun", and guess what - that's us! To make matters worse, to get the full effect they need to find two different kinds of entertainers, not just one, and to make the whole experience totally unpalatable, there's a flaw in the system such that the pool we effect is the one that is easy to target and can't be healed (as far as wounds) on the battlefield making it the most vulnerable pool so players feel they need to have it completely maxed out to even play. This leads to an exaggerated and unrealistic need of our services (game mechanics) and only fosters ill will of other players towards us.
On the other hand, we probably prefer things like a more relaxed and more social play environment, the chance to meet and interact with other players of all professions, the ability to use our skills to create entertaining shows, and a game mechanic we can use to help other players and hopefully contribute to the Star Wars atmosphere.
So in summary, I think that, unlike Politician, there's no benefit to our profession at having our skill point cost removed. The real solution is a new and clear definition of our role in the game: one that takes into account and accomodates the type of playstyle we want to have, and that also considers how it will affect and relate to other players.
I think there are significant differences between our professions, and the politician profession, and there were good reasons to make the politician profession 0 SP cost whereas doing the same to ours could be detrimental. Politicians have and will continue to have an important and clearly defined support role in the game as long as there are player cities with or without a skill point cost. We still don't have a clearly defined role in the game, many people resent what role we do have and are only too happy to hand it over to player controlled NPC's, and it seems likely that whatever role we will have in the future will be changed from what it is now. Without a skill point cost, there's no incentive to give us any meaningful or important role going forward. On the other hand, Politician is more of an auxillary profession in many ways. It is only a single tree profession separate from all the others: it doesn't rely on any other professions nor does it lead to any. From what I know of it, it doesn't have any "gameplay" skills associated with it. It's just designed for support and maintenance of player cities, and outside of that has no other purpose to the game as a whole. While the player city maintenance skills may be important for one or more ranking members of the city to have, to require skill points that could be applied to professions or profession skills that are more fun and more useful to the larger game seems to be unfair. It essentially amounts to some player from the city to either create an alt or "take one for the team" to invest skill points in such a profession. Thus I think it was a good decision in this case to remove such a requirement. We at least are part of a fully fleshed out novice and elite skill tree. We have skills that are useful anywhere we choose to take them, and in whatever way we wish to use them. We can even enjoy our skills for their own sake without even applying ourselves to "game mechanics" if we so choose (starport parties, Cantina Crawls, etc.). We even have some added combat defenses that can enhance our combat prowess if we should want to take that route. I think it's right that we do have a skill point cost, and for us to be anything meaningful in this game, we should continue to have one.
I think what we really need to do is to think about the general playstyle we would like to maintain in this game, and design game mechanics that fit it. That's why I now think that mind buffing is incompatable with the kind of game we want to play. The whole mindset of the player seeking the buff is completely at odds with what we want to do. When someone wants a buff, they've already got plans of somewhere else to be, something else to do, and other people to be with. Plus they've probably already received a medical buff which is already ticking away. Anything else to them is just another time sink and nuisance that's between them and their "fun", and guess what - that's us! To make matters worse, to get the full effect they need to find two different kinds of entertainers, not just one, and to make the whole experience totally unpalatable, there's a flaw in the system such that the pool we effect is the one that is easy to target and can't be healed (as far as wounds) on the battlefield making it the most vulnerable pool so players feel they need to have it completely maxed out to even play. This leads to an exaggerated and unrealistic need of our services (game mechanics) and only fosters ill will of other players towards us.
On the other hand, we probably prefer things like a more relaxed and more social play environment, the chance to meet and interact with other players of all professions, the ability to use our skills to create entertaining shows, and a game mechanic we can use to help other players and hopefully contribute to the Star Wars atmosphere.
So in summary, I think that, unlike Politician, there's no benefit to our profession at having our skill point cost removed. The real solution is a new and clear definition of our role in the game: one that takes into account and accomodates the type of playstyle we want to have, and that also considers how it will affect and relate to other players.
TheSillyOne
Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:44 pm
#156
Well, perhaps my take on things is a bit slantedbecause i play on the Starsider server where the RP value of dance is actually valued. When we throw parties, even the combatants show up to rock out for a bit. I think, at least on that server, a reduction or elimination of sp cost would actually increase the number of live and dedicated entertainers.
For me, dance is asthetics and social--the majority of the content for that proffession is player created, not dev created and the functionality of it is pretty much laughable. We're not healers and can't be treated as such because it will limit our ability to be "something more" (or at least that is what they would have us believe). Of course no one knows what this "something more" is or could be or when it will be implemented or evenif it will indeed be implemented.
It's my opinion that the dev's gave up on this proffession a long time ago and to charge us Skill Points for what is essentially a worthless proffession seems unfair to me.
all of the arguments i'm seeing are that removing the SP cost would Kill the viabilityof theproffession and I think the proffession is already dead.