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Thread: Concerning the Pro's of Forced PvP Mastership......
Naquiel wrote:
Then tell me why you said, "The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel." Sounds like your saying that the ppl that would be sad are the griefers. So instead of wording the sentence to sound different. why dont you acctuly say what the easy target is and who is doing the targeting. I know what you where saying and you where saying that the only ppl that would be sad would be the griefers not having something to shoot at, but again you still dont know that the ppl that play in the pvp area are a griefer. So dont sugar coat the subject and just say what you really mean.
Slarus wrote:
No, you say its a griefers dream, i would like to see proff that griefers will be there to stop ppl. How is it griefing if the area that the mission is in is made for ppl to shoot each other. There is no griefing, get your facts straight.
Happened in beta all the time, was in the top issues for beta till the end of beta, how much more proof do you need.
The mission is not "made" for others to shoot at you, get your facts straight.
Get your facts straight, in a pvp area the rules for that area states that you can shoot other players of the opposate faction, shooting of another player is not griefing. Shooting other players is part of the rules of the pvp area. Now befor you go to these areas you are to get a message stating the area is pvp, Now since vic and you are saying your not getting this message, then it must be a bug because i got the message all the time in beta. i had to agree that the area i was going to was pvp and that when i said yes, and depending on the area i had to pay a fee, and off i went.
Now if this message is not showing up then yes this could be a possible griefing problem and should be fixed right away. But it still dont give it the right to have the mission moved.
but as for The mission is not "made" for others to shoot at you, get your facts straight., i find it funny you say this. Lets look at what would happen in a pve area if you get the mission based on your facts.
You go to fly your final mission and your find your target you go back and forth doing your best, then out of nowere a very tuff enemy from off to the side comes in that wasnt a part of your mission starts to attack and kills you. after all this you still get killed and all that work is ruined.
But from thisthe npc was just doing what it was programed to do in the area it was in. you cant reason with a npc, and the npc only has one thing on its mind and its just to kill you.Kinda shoots holes in your facts that the mission is not made for others to shoot at you. The ai of the ship was just acting like any enemy you will find in a pvp zone, and just like in the ground game. you see no matter where the mission is, there is going to be something outside the mission itself that will ruin the mission if you get killed, ether by npc or another player. So i say there is no reason to move the mission.
But from all this,i know what non pvp playersexpect to find in a pvp zone or else they would not be here complaining. But i will say that playing the mission in a pvp areais no problem and can be done. You will still have to fight the enemy just like in pve you can still die like in pve and the enemy can die like in pve. You just have to do it.
TheRealXur wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Then tell me why you said, "The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel." Sounds like your saying that the ppl that would be sad are the griefers. So instead of wording the sentence to sound different. why dont you acctuly say what the easy target is and who is doing the targeting. I know what you where saying and you where saying that the only ppl that would be sad would be the griefers not having something to shoot at, but again you still dont know that the ppl that play in the pvp area are a griefer. So dont sugar coat the subject and just say what you really mean.
What real PvP player would want to fight someone that is obviously at a disadvantage?
I dont know, maybe if you can tell usstraight out how to identify a player that is at a dissadvantage befor an attack begins. I really like how most of you think a pvp player is a mind reader. A pvp player dont know how strang you are, a pvp player dont know how strong your ship is, and they certainly dont know who you are, you are just a target, just like they are and you just have to make sure you keep from dieing in an area that is ment for battle.
You are acting as if there is NO reward for master pilot except the title. There are better ships, equiptment and skills. If you run in to someone that you would beat 50/50 if you were both masters, the tables instantly become about 60/40 or 70/30 now that they WILL have better equipment and skills than you.
Lets see, you get a title, you get a few more ships and parts to use and the ability for extra content which for now is a pvp zone. How does a master title mean anything.....Well try being able to defeat a very hard mission to get to master, how about useing all those skills you learned getting up to pilot to finish said mission. But i can be different for many, for some just geting a MP ship is there mastery goal.
I don't want to enter to do this mission because I do not enjoy PvP.(Then dont do the mission, its your choice) I do not enjoy it because others that enjoy beating up on people with lesser skills and equipment have destroyed the very idea of PvP in this game for me.
No, alot of ppl in a pvp area is all bent on killing lower lvl players, there are a few that like to beat down the best players just to see if there good enough. But again how do find out if a player is weaker than you till you fight them? I would really like to know what you know, because if you know how strong another player is, then you would be able to avoid fighting befor they get near. but there is nothing in the game except the radar to tell you if someone is coming.
And Vicotnik is right, you are considering me an inferior player because I do not like PvP. This is very insulting actually.
No, i feel that anyone can fight in a pvp area, and i feel ppl are smarter than what vic is making ppl to be. I only say that the only thing keeping ppl out of the pvp area is that ppl just dont want to try, your not inferior for not trying, its just a choice you wanted to make, and choice is a very strong trait to have.
Space can be a big challenge without these missions, and since you like to debate it the ground game can be very challenging as well. People in the ground game have choosen not to be challenged. Every timethey go searching for 80% armor and 3K buffs they are purposly avoiding any challenge. You can't blame SOE because these people searched high and low to find a way to avoid things.
Ya ppl have chosen to not be challenged on the ground game, but there also the ones complaining that alot of the content can be easily gone through. so this is why the devs are stepping back in and changing things, they are tuffening up the professions and anything else connected to combat to make things more challenging, then things will be inline, but again ppl will complain that it will be to hard and mastering professions will be tuffer to attain, but its for the better good of making the game fresh and challenging and possible having a profession mean somthing. But step back and look at JTL, its out now with new things that ppl are not use to, but did you think that these might be things to come in the ground game.
I am challenged on a regular basis on the ground, simply by taking off my armor and NOT getting buffed while running missions. The Corvette and the DWB are a sorry excuse for a challenge. I refuse to do them because instead of making things a real challenge, they just beefed up the bad guys. If people want a challenge, then challenge yourself. If you want to PvP, go overt. It's as simple as that.
Ya i fight all the time on the ground gathering resources and harvesting meat, and all i use is the nice jumpsuit i like my character to wear and a pack of stim b's, its all down to how well you know your skills. yes i agree the DWB and corvette are a bad experiment gon very wrong, but they still can be done. Yes i can challenge myself all the time, but the devs sometimes step in and do it for us, there is no problem with what they did. Its the devs game. But from other games do you just quit playing if you come up to a super hard area you think you cant beat? Well most ppl would do what ever they can just to get done with that area to move on. ya they would be mad and annoyed and swear they would never do it ever again, but the same gould be said for here. Just do the mission and get it over.
These missions will not raise interest in PvP, they will lower it. Because the PvE people don't want to go, and a real self respecting PvP player will never go back to kessel after they master. Because they will know the people they stand a chance to run across are most likely no where near a fair fight and will be no fun. Any real PvPer will only PvP in deep space, so they will not get a bad rep or destroy the game play for other players.
How do you know, what if there is someone new to the game got all the way up to the master mission and played in the pvp area and liked it. Well if he liked itm then more ppl might like it and next thing you know there is more, or mot even change. We do knot know. And again you dont know what a respectful master pilot pvp player would do, for all you know that same pvp player would acctuly help ppl go and finish the mission in the pvp area. I dont know, i heard kesel has alot of good loot to get, i feel many ppl will be there just to get the loot. But i feel that if there attacked, they will fight back.
You want a badge or a new title that says "PvP God" or something, fine, do these missions after you master. If you want PvP while you work on your missions then declare. At the very least you should be able to train if you EARN the experience required for master. And Privateers shouldn't be required to pick a side. Again, if you would like to see recognition for being good at PvP be it a title, a badge or whatever that's cool with me and I'm sure most other PvE players. If we decide we want that recognition, we'll attempt it.
You may not feel that those people that earn 7.5 million xp have earnedmaster pilot, but that's your opinion. I don't personally think the people that do these missions have earned master pilot, because they didn't prove themselves over time, they proved themselves on two missions. Set the bar at 20 millions experience for master if you want, but if I earn that experience, I have proved that I can indeed challenge myself and play the game and I have fully earned my title and access to my skills. If they give you and others the master title for two missions that's fine with me though. I'll "choose" to earn the experience myself.
No, if ppl get master pilot by getting 7.5 mill pilot exp than that is good for an alternative for ppl to become a master, at least you can do this in a pve area, but who said you needed the 7.5 mill to finish the master mission, maybe the master mission in a pvp zone is just the fast way of getting the master titleas a very challenging way to get it andgetting the 7.5 million exp is the alternitive, did you ever think of that.
If you rush to the end of everything that's exactly what you'll get, an ending. People killed this game for themselves on the ground. If you get bored with space because your master that's because you don't want to challenge yourself, not because the game didn't challenge you. Try fighting in a lower end fighter in PvE. Don't spend all your time and money seeking the uber gear. If you're in to PvP, live in Deep Space for a while.
1. im a master SW so i make my own gear, and my guilds gear. 2. I like my priveteer fighter, its cool and good and i can take on 6-8 ships at a time. i find it good that i can take on many ships and win, but for the game in general, i like to take my time, it took about 6 months for me to master BH and i had fun, i mostly went on adventures and never worried about being a master because i was having fun. 3. i dont pvp much, i do on occasion, but i know how to stay alive. Maybe playing many mmorpg games helped, I iliked DAOC so much for the challenge, i even had to visit a pvp area 3 times to finish skill quests. Never had any problem getting attacked and pretty much left ppl alone i know was an enemy finishing there mission, or they where a scout for a bigger group. Point is, a pvp zone is not as bad as ppl make it to be, and is worth a try.
PS: I have 0 interest in Jedi myself as well, because the profession doesn't do anything but combat and takes all your skill points, so it's obviously only useful for PvP. Since I have no interest in PvP, I have no interest in Jedi or even unlocking a second character slot.
Jedi are over rated, i did some of the jedi missions just for some of the skills for my character(i love the skills only cost 1 point per box.
Naquiel wrote:
And that is exactly why the goal of something that is aimed towards everyone should very well be avaliable to everyone. But ofcourse, since you lack the ability of seeing things from different points of views. You'll disagree with this.
Then why dont the devs just give us jedi instead of making it so tuff that everyone cant get a jedi, but wait everyone can if they work hard to do it. This dont mean that everyone wants one, but i do know that if the devs changed it that jedi didnt have to pvp, a lot more ppl would be there grinding away. Well the same thing can go for master pilot.
Ok, first off: Jedi is not aimed to the broad public it's aimed towards a smaller set of people, therefore it can follow "different" rules. Pilot is the core of JTL, and is thusly aimed towards the mainstream SWG subscriber. Second: Here you are with your notion that things cannot be though unless it contains PVP. Where did ANYONE state that these missions should be easy?
The DWB is not attainable by everyone. By doing that, you would ensure that becomming a pilot would just be something for powergamers, and that's just trading one evil for another lesser one.
DWB is attainable by everyone, you just have to work hard to get through it. I would say that if the devs had to place the mission in a pve area the are will be a DWB in space. Maybe thats why they plased the mission in a pvp area to give ppl a chance?
Does the term "grasping for/at straws" mean anything to you? Why would it have to be a DWB in space? And no, the DWB is not attainable by everyone. Not everyone have the funds and the time it takes to commit to a successful DWB run.
First of all, there is the entire issue of intelligence: NPCs are dumb, players are at the very least nominally intelligent. (though, some don't show it very well)
Well lets see, ppl run in shooting, so do npc's. Some ppl keep running around wile shooting, wait the same as npc's. PPl will come up and use specials on you, but then agin so do npc's, the fact is the npc ai in the game is really not that different than players. Npc's will attack you if your an enemy, they will run from you when there about to die, just like a regular player.Npc'smay be dumb, but they act alot like a regular player.
So you are arguing here that either:
A) Players lack intelligence and can only act according to a couple of set paramenters OR
B) SOE has actually managed to create a true AI that acts like actual players.
Laughable, there is a huge difference between players and NPC's. Name one NPC that can do this for example:
1) Call on their guild for backup.
2) Can actually try and predict what you are going to do.
3) Has the uncanny ability to get the most of their equipment through buffs, high end loot, power-ups and the like. (Moronic values on the NPC HAM and resists are for this purpose obviously not counted)
Second, NPCs lacks unpredictability, players do not.
I dont think so, i have seen groups of npc's that would have 2 shooting from the back ground, 2 melee attacking up close and swithch off to running away to dropping the gun and attacking with a melee weapon. They sure act like alot of ppl i know when fighting. And up in space, npc ships do chase you like a regular player can, they are good to if your not watching there friends.
That's completely unrelated to unpredictability. The NPCs are acting according to a set number of parameters with a few variants. A NPC can NEVER be as unpredictable as a player. And furthermore, if the "A.I." in JTL resembles the AI we had during beta the day before the servers went down, then it's just about the most predictable AI ever.
Third, Players and NPCs quite differ in ship characteristics, not that this is how it should be, but it is the way the developers went.
Fourth, NPCs can't harbour any permanent grudges against you. If you get one on your tail, you can just shake them off. A player can hound you until the game is shut down. NPCs lack emotions, players do not.
No grudge eh, i have had npc ships on me i could not shake and the only way to get away was to hyperspace. But then again i was in the wrong sector of space and the ships that where on me where way to tuff.
That's exactly what I am saying. NPC ships don't follow the same rules as the player ships, they will ALWAYS be better. Not quite logical, and it's just because SOE couldn't manage to create an acceptable AI. All they did was to pretty much boost up the NPC ships to obscene levels.
Differences enough for you? Or are you actually going to state that they are similar in these respects?
There still simular, just do this for me. Go to a pvp battle like a base raid, dont join in or anything, just watch the whole event. watch what ppl do. Then after that go someplace like the DWB and watch a group try to go down in the base. Then tell me what you have seen.
I can already tell you what I would see: A huge wooping difference. If you would turn off all "overhead names" and see a fight with NPC storm troopers and players in Storm trooper armor, it would be very easy to point out which ones were NPCs and which ones were PCs. That is to say if the PCs didn't try and act like NPCs on purpose.
How is it with your reading comprehension? That's not what I am saying at all. Putting the missions in a PVP area may very well be challenging, but this is the issue and read it carefully: PVP is not the only way of creating challenges. This ties in with the fact that PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP. And for that matter: PVE != Challenge. Challenge != PVE.
Since PVP is not the only way of creating challenge, logic states that you should not use PVP to create challenge for something that is supposedly aimed for everyone.
Then let the devs make a DWB in space for us to do the final mission in then, that will be challenging enough.
According to your standards, but thankfully, you don't get to decide here.
You say that it can be challenging in a pve area, then let it be a DWB in space.
Why does it have to be DWB in space?
But befor you say that ppl wont do it because it will be to tuff, stop and think what the devs are going to do. The devs didnt want it to be easy for you to get the master title, so they would make a tuff area to match a pvp area, and that would be a DWB in space.
Why? And since when are you an expert at what the developers want or not want?
Now your going to have ppl again saying the title is unattanible. So i say again, just do the mission and get it over with and then you wont have to worry about it again.
Spoken like a true ego-centric. Take note of this now, once and for all: I'm not arguing for this change for me. I've already done these missions once, and I will do it two times more (posibly three). I'm arguing about this for the good of the game.
Im not tiptoing anything, the devs made jediforced pvp. Wile here with JTL a person has a choice to pvp or not.
Give that up, will you? Jedi is but a splinter of SWG. Pilot is the core of JTL. What you are saying here is that people who dislike PVP should not even get JTL.
No JTL is just a new addition to the ground game, yes pilot is the core of JTL, but its a smal part of the main game itself just like jedi.
Nope, sorry you are very wrong here. JTL is not an addition to the ground game. JTL is pretty much a game in its own right. The fact that it is an expansion does not mean that it's just an addition. Can you even listen to yourself arguing here? You are over and again stating that pilot and Jedi are similar, when they are quite the opposite. Jedi is aimed for a small group of players, it's but a splinter of the big picture. Pilot IS the big picture in JTL. There is NOWAY of getting around this problem due to this.
And no im not saying ppl shouldnt get JTL if they dont like pvp, im just saying that if they dont want to finish a mission in a pvp area its there choice and they can play with the ships thay have. But then again they could just do the mission and move on.
Why would they "just do the mission and move on"? Why do you feel it so prudent that these people are not worthy of the title?
There is no choice, but keep telling yourself that it is. Sheesh.
Ok think hard and answer this question. if you come up to a pvp zone and the system tells you that the area is a pvp zone, would you agree to go in?
Prove it. I've already shown you the picture I took just a day or two before the beta ended. In this picture, there was no system message or any other information on the area being a PVP area. If you are going to state something as a fact, back it up, please. Especially since there is contradicting evidence.
If you said yes, you made a choice to go in. If you said no, that was also your choice not to go in. its a choice plain and simple.
No, had it been a true choice, people would have had to know this before they started their pilot profession. (Yes, even before they bought JTL)
All you saying is that ppl dont have a choice witch is a lie, there is nothing there stopping a person from entering the pvp zone but themselves, but then again its there choice that is keeping them out.
Not a lie at all, there is no choice if you want the most of your expansion. "Plain and simple".
Well, yes. Are you saying that you are a griefer here? Not once did I state that this applied to EVERYONE in the PVP area, you did. No,what I saidwas that: If you get upset with these missions being moved, you were quite obviously looking forward to easy targets.
One, im not a griefer and to let you know i rarly pvp.2. Now that you just admited that the sentance was basicly you saying that theppl that where possiblygriefing would be sad that they would not have easy targets if the mission was moved out of the pvp area shows you still dont knowwhat the word griefer means in an online game. But wait, a pvp zone does not have griefers if there following the rules of the zone, which is to defeat the enemy. How can it be griefing if there just attacking the enemy in a zone that lets them do it.
What drug are you on? I want those delusions too!
A griefer in a online game is someone who (by purpose) causes grief and ruins the game experience of someone else over and over. The fact that there are PVP zones with set rules means nothing. If someone goes into this zone with the purpose of ruining someones mission, then they are very well worthy of the title griefer. Again, before you make up more lies and twist my words: NOT ONCE DID I STATE THAT EVERYONE IN A PVP AREA WILL DO THIS. But the option is there, that not even you can deny.
Are you completely lacking the ability to comprehend one measly line of text? NOT ONCE DID I STATE THAT ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE PVP AREA ARE GRIEFERS, you did. WHAT I DID STATE WAS THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO CAN BE UPSET ABOUT THIS WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING EASY TARGETS.
Woot i can make big bold text to, ! i did not say that you said all pvp players are griefers,
Yes you did. SEVERAL TIMES.
i just said you should just state that you dont want the mission in a pvp zone for thepossibilityof a griefing problem,
Oh really now? Let's quote the book of you on this matter:
"Again you are falling back to that everyone that is a pvp player is a griefer, you dont know that."
"What do you mean "the only ppl who would not be happy by this would be the ppl actully looking forward to seeing easy targets in kessel", Areyou saying the ppl in the pvp area aregriefers? "
"You really got to get the notionthat any pvp player shooting at and a non pvp player is a griefer. "
Do I need to dig up more quotes?
but you just said that your statment was about griefers and i was posting that you where just sugar coating a sentance to get around naming the word griefer,. So stop skirting around the subject and say it out load that you dont want the mission in a pvp area because of a possible griefing problem, Come on its really simple. Just say it.
No, it's not that simple. BECAUSE THAT IS NOT WHAT THE ENTIREISSUE IS. Had you been reading these posts actively, you would have known this by know.
If you're a non pvp person, you won't have any chance at fireing back. If you do, that's one crappy PVPer.
Boy you sure dont give ppl much credit do you, I have seen many non pvp players that can solo many very hard npc's in the game, in turn can handle themselves if they where ever attacked in a pvp setting, And a question, dont you think the non pvp person would be on alert since they know there entering a pvp area? I dont know about you but i know ppl are smarter than you think they are.
No, but you give people too much credit. Just because you're a good PVE player, it does not mean that you're automatically a good PVP player. The Jedi system pretty much proved this. They would be alert until they get into a fight with NPC's. They can't very well be very alert at that point.
No they wouldn't. PVP is a completely different thing thatn PVE. If you place someone who has only played as a PVE pilot in a PVP area, they will have no experience of PVP and know nothing about what to expect. That is what makes them easy targets during the mission. Of course, you fail to see this, since you can only look at things from your own, ego-centric point of view.
No i dont fail to see this, i do see that you saying ppl are not smart enough t find out info about the mission and the area there going to, I can see you dont think a person is smart enough to learn about the area there going to to help prepair, and the skills the person has learned all the way up to that point will help them get through the mission, or do you think ppl cant do that?
First of all: You could almost get a monkey to play their way to 4-4-4-4 (Well, they wouldn't be able to complete the missions, but that's another story) the NPC ship "AI" is just that predictable. And no, people won't be "smart enough" to find out information about the mission and the area they are going to. They haven't had any reason to do that up until the master missions, so why should they do that now? Second: How, exactly, would a PVE player go about to be prepaired for a PVP area when they have no experience of that?
Oh yes, the "get friends" excuse. It doesn't work to justify these missions, but we've already been through all that a couple of times now.
Try having friends help, you might find it works, if you have any.
Yet again: THIS DOES NOT IN ANY SINGLE RESPECT JUSTIFY THESE MISSIONS. YOU ALREADY NEED FRIENDS WITH YOUFOR THE PVE PART OF THE MISSION.
Don't blame your inability to comprehend text on me. I've already said what I meant with that sentence above, but here it is again: "The only people who could ever be upset if these missions were moved from Kessel would logically be people looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel." Oh, and of course, you want a five-page disclaimer with each sentence, so here:
1) Not once did I state that this sentence applies to all PVPers, you made that conclusion, not me. Tells a bit more about how you view the subject than how I view it.
2) Not once did I state that this sentence applies to everyone in Kessel, you made that conclusion.
3) Don't put words in other peoples mouths. It doesn't work very well at all.
Then just admit that all your saying that you dont want missions in a pvp area because of a possibility of a griefing problem. Its simple, just do it insted of sugar coating with the statment you made above.
I'm not "sugar coating" any statements. And hell no, I don't want missions in a pvp area unless they are optional. I'm not looking forward to being called a griefer when I kill someone in PVP.
No, I quite blatantly state what I mean here. You are the one calling people griefers, not me.
No you are sill Calling ppl griefers even if its not useing the word itself. So lets break what was said:
No, I'm not. I'm absolutely NOT calling people griefers at all, I can't help it that you can't interpret text in an acceptable way.
From me: Then tell me why you said, "The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel." Sounds like your saying that the ppl that would be sad are the griefers.
The above text refers to the only people that can be upset if there is a change in these missions. And sure, they may be called griefers. BUT SINCE WHEN DOES THIS TEXT REFER TO EVERYONE IN A PVP AREA?
And from a statment by you: Well, yes. Are you saying that you are a griefer here? Not once did I state that this applied to EVERYONE in the PVP area, you did. No,what I saidwas that: If you get upset with these missions being moved, you were quite obviously looking forward to easy targets.
Uh-huh. I'm not stating anything in that text, I'm twisting your words. Feels funky when someone does it to you, doesn't it?
Sound like your saying the ppl looking for easy targets are griefers to me. Who else would you think wouldlook for easy targets?
Are you doing a "Kerry" on me now? Changing your arguments and viewpoints in the middle of a thread? Or are you suddenly accepting that I never once did call EVERYONE griefers? Of course the people looking for easy kills could be counted as griefers. True PVPers would prefer the challenge. People looking for easy kills are just in it for the victory, and in effect to cause misery to other people.
Well i would like to say you are a really good player if you can tell what enemy is an easy target. you where just a little crafty with your wording to get out of saying it blatantly but i can see what you are saying.
Uh, anyone fighting the Corvette and the gunboats are easy targets. In fact, anyone fighting NPCs in Kessel are fairly easy targets. I don't think you can see what I am saying, so here it is again:
If these missions were moved, who would be pissed off/upset/crying/whatever? No one except the people who wanted no challenge in their PVP kills. Got that through your skull yet?
It might be an odd statment, but im just saying that a player at 4444 is not going to be an easy target, and you should not make them out to be an easy target.
Wrong. Someone completely unexperienced with PVP will be an easy target. Someone completely unexperienced with FPS games will be an easy target.
The only time a person is a target is when they make themselves one. If you deside to go to the pvp area to do the mission, what would you do to perpare? one would to make sure you had a good ship, well stocked and ready for action, and the same for the rest of the group. Two would to plan out what you and your group is going to do. Three would to practice befor going in and try to learn some piloting tricks that will surprise the enemy. and Four, go during a time when you know its mostly clear of the enemy.
And in what reality do gamers do this? If you're trying out a new gaming experience (or maybe not even knowing that you are), are you going to prepare and study up on the subject? Not many people will do this. And again, you are slightly off topic here. You are trying to make up some strange excuse that because they can prepare for it, this mission is justified. It's not in any single way justified by this.
And this has exactly what to do with my statement? The fact is clear as crystal: The missions does not actually include any PVP at all. They just make you a target.
No it does exactly go with your statment. You say that non ppl going into a pvp area is only going to be a target, well all im saying that ppl are smart and will not make themselves a target, and by knowing what there getting into and perparing ahead of time, they will try hard not to be a target. Do make it that a person will go into the zone as a total noob, when there not.
But THEY ARE total noobs. Someone testing something out for the first time ever is a noob by default. There is no way around this. Someone who has never tried PVP before will be very much a noob compared to real PVPers.
You are STILL not getting this, are you? Someone who hasn't done any PVPing IS going in as a total noob in the area. Especially since most of them won't even know that Kessel is THE hotspot for PVP.
Again you really need to give more credit to some ppl. Ppl are smart and will learn what they need.
And you give people too much credit, or have you forgotten how it was to be a noob? I see countless threads in this forum, and hear countless things in game that proves that people are complete noobs when they try something out. How many people have you heard shouting for training in pilot skills, for example. People don't learn what they need, it's not in their nature.
But it does, justify these missions. Since you have been reading and noticed that i have been saying that you should "group up" and "fight back" really is a big hint to getting the mission done.
Not once does this justify these missions. Not in any single respect does this justify these missions when the same could be achieved without PVP.
But what you dont understand is if it can be done in pve it can be done in a pvp area to.
I understand that, and that is very much what I am arguing against. It can be done in a PVP area too, but not as well as in a PVE area. In the PVP area you WILL end up offending some people, that will NEVER happen in a PVE area.
This does serve a purpose, the devs use past game experiance to help make changes to the game to keep ppl playing. And your still not understanding that the devs want master pilot to be a challenge and doinng something different will make ppl try harder to reach there goal. Place the mission in a pve area will mean everyone and there brother will have the master title and the title will loose its meaning. Agian you still need to look at the whole picture of what is going on.
I need to look at the big picture? Please, it is you who are stuck in the same corner all the damn time. This serves no purpose that cannot be served through PVE means. What you are in effect saying here is that PVE can never be challenging. PVE can never be dynamic. Yeah, right.
I never said that pve would not be challenging, but as you said, npc's are stupid and repeditive and easy to figure out and can be beaten really easy. I say try somrthing different You might learn something.
What are you? Kerry Jr? Just a few minutes ago, I read a textwhere you stated that NPCs and PCs were exactly alike, now you are stating that they are stupid and repetetive? Make up your mind please.
No, you are quite wrong. PVP is not dev created, it is player created. If you enter the Kessel area at different times of the day, you will notice that the population is very different. This is not something that the developers can control, if they could, the mission would have the same difficulty at all hours.
If pvp was plyer made than we would have super eleet ppl running around the planets with BFG's and there would be no rules and everyone would be a target. This is the devs game and there useing there rules with some stuff we wanted but on a controled lvl. You really need to pay more attantion to game mechanics.
Huh? PVP is very much player created, the mechanics and rulesets are not obviously. But guess what? They are completely unrelated things. Without players there can be no PVP, so PVP is always player created content. The mechanics, however, works fine without any players at all.
Yes i bring up the broken ground game, but did it ever occure to you that idea ofwhat they put here in JTL might come up in the ground game in the future? You see the devs are always changing things, and some ppl like the changes and some dont, we know you dont like.
No, it won't come up in the ground game. They would loose too many subscribers, and JTL will prove that it won't work in a game that is mainly based around PVE.
We obviously know what you like too, seems thatthrough your unhealthy fixation with the word "griefer" and the fact that you think that everyone in the PVP areas will be upset if these missions are moved... You must be one yourself. Feels funny when people place words in your mouth, doesn't it?
Now your putting more words in my mouth.
Well, duh. I stated that quite blatantly.
1. You dont even know what the devs are giong to do and thats where i said it MIGHT come up.
I know that they won't be dumb enough to add the same thing to the ground game.
2. You dont know if they will loose subscribers.
Everything they do will make them loose subscribers, hell I even know peoplewho havethreatened to quit because the "combat rebalance" will make them loose their uberness.But if you make changes to a PVP optional game that goes against this, you WILL loose subscribers at an accelerated rate.
3. you dont know if having the mission in a pvp area will fail.
Yes I do, since I know that they won't work in the end. But since we have already settled that you lack the ability to think ahead, here is a brief explanation: For every day that goes by since the realease of JTL, more and more people will become masters. The more masters there are, the harder the master missions will be. Now think ahead one year (Yeah, I know you lack that ability, but humour me), think about the numbers of PVPing masters there will be now. Done? Yes, now consider how absolutely frustrating, gamebreaking and hard the missions will be. No, I know not all masters will PVP, but the numbers ofPVPing masters will increase to the point where there is no more room for masters.
4. I dont have a fixation of the word griefer, but you sure have a way of not saying it in long winder statments, and i never said everypvp player is a griefer, i said that you think that every player is a griefer and i was proving you wrong., and
You were proving me wrong? All you did was to twist my words into your own fabricated lies and means.
5. i never said i liked pvp, i pvp on rare occasions, and know how pvp works.
Do you? You seem fairly unable to decide if players are different from NPCs or not. You're pretty much all over the place here...
So basically you are saying that game companies should not even really bother to actively market their games? Their potential customers will find out everything they need to find out? That is not how commercialism works.
The wonders of advertisment, Soe puts out announcements to publishing companies about there products witch filter down to mags, websites and forums, Advertisments help let ppl know about the product, but when you really get down to the details you will find the information from the main company website. But i could go on and tell you more, but i dont think you want to hear about my 15+ years of being in retail sales.
Sure, tell me more about your 15+ years in retail sales. I'm sure it's facinating. /sarcasm off.
Just try and break from the rut you put yourself into. leave emotion out of the picture and look at all the views from a detectives point of view and you will see that both pvp and pve players are really not that different.
The only reason I'm showing "emotion" here is that I have argued about this for a few hundred posts now, and frankly I'm very tired of it. Doesn't mean I will stop though, since all thearguments I hear arerather notvalid. And furthermore, this isn't about the nature of PVP and PVE players at all.
I still post here because i dont see a valid reason why the mission should be moved. And if this isnt about pvp and pve players at all, then what is it really about?
If you don't see a valid reason at all, then you are absolutely NOT able to see things from other views than your own.No, this thread is not about the nature of PVP and PVE players, you turned it into that. It's a thread about how it's a very bad idea to try and force people into gamestyles they do not like. It's a thread about missions that are not thought throughly before implementation. It's a thread about trying to get a change to a rather failed design process. It's a thread about trying to make the game work for as big a group of people as possible. Now sure, the nature of PVP and PVE players is part of this. But it's not the purpose and main subject of the thread.
Again, that is in your view. In someone elses view that means nothing at all. Things don't have more meaning than what we give to them. What you find meaningful, someone else might find laughable. Some people might find collecting broken sandstats meaningful, while you don't. Didn't you just state that you were looking at this from many points of views? You obviously are not, since you just stated quite clearly that "surviving a mission in a pvp area will give meaning." It won't. In effect, everything is meaningless until you give it meaning.
Now stop and see what you just said. Yes i have a view i came here with, you have a view you came with, others have views they came with. We put them on the table and you just came out and said it wont work, but this whole time i have been here saying it can, but we will be strong in what we beileve will work or wont work. I said that i achknowledged that there is a possible griefing problem if the mission is in a pvp area, but i also said it really cant be griefing sinceppl would be playing in an area where players fighting each other is allowed.
What, didn't you just earlier state that you were seeing this from a multitude of views? Now you are saying that you came here with your own view? Uh... Huh.
But you come along and say that the ppl playing on kesel will be sad that if the missions are moved to a pve area they would not have easy targets,
No, that's not what I said, and you know it. Not once did I equal the people playing in Kessel to the people in that statement. The statement was, and I quote: "The second freakin' reason: It absolutely wouldn't offend ANYONE if it didn't include PVP. Move the mission to Dathomir, and everyone would be happy. The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel". Or are you going to read things that are not there again?
which is really funny since you really cant tell how easy a player really is untill they start fighting. But then we get to my part of answering if being in a pvp area will have meaning, and yes it would, just like if there was a DWB in a pve space area for the final mission. But again you wont accept this as an answer since you have already made up you mind what you think the mission should be.
Of course I have made up my mind, that is why I am here arguing. I have tried these missions, I've realised what will happen with them in a few months. I'm trying to get a change done here.
Your not, or else you would not be arguing with me on this, you are refusing to achknowledge my point of view as part of the whole picture.
No, I'm certain your point of view exists as a part of the whole picture. It's just not valid in one bit. And stick to the subject here: You think you will have a better overall experience due to this, but you are unable to see that people who dislike PVP won't, Right?
No, your wrong because you dont know, The whole time i have been here i been trying to tell you that you really dont know what will happen, you have it dead set in you mind that ppl will not enter a pvp area, because of the fear that they might get greifed, that is plain and simple.
Now you are fabricating stuff again. Not once have I stated that people won't enter a PVP are because of fear. In fact, I spent many hours arguing against the "fear issue" with Cuality in this thread (or a similar one, I forget). And yes, I know just about what will happen. These missions will not work in the end due to several reasons, one being human nature. Nothing good can come out of these missions, so they will be changed sooner or later. The question is just how long it will take, it took SOE long enough to realize that the hologrinding was too destructive for the game.
But i have been coming here and saying it can work, all you need is to practice and get friends to help.
That does not justify these missions one bit. In fact, you would already need friends for the missions even if there was no PVP risk.
Toped with the fact that ppl can survive a pvp area to get a master title.
That's going to be very hard for people who get JTL several months from now. The more PVPers who play JTL, the harder it will be to master the profession. If you feel like testing this statement: Master one pilot now, and try again in 6 months.
And in the end it can make a person feel they acctuly earned the title as master.
That's all personal. It might means something for one person, but it might mean jack for someone else.
Is it so hard for you that ppl can try, is it hard to comprehend that ppl can learn to get something done in an area beyond the normal area they play in. Dont close some of those ppl off. Give them help, let them know they can do the mission with no problem.
Are you daft? I'm trying to get them help. I'm trying to help them by moving the missions to a PVE zone. And you have yet been able to state why you are so adamant that this is wrong.
Think hard. Look whats in front of you. Every change the devs have been doing has been to make the content at the end of some content difficult, this time they put the content in anarea some ppl dont like. To bad, learn to just get it done and move on.
No, people will not learn to like it. People will keep arguing against it until it is altered.
Wow, i like this statment from you since it is true, some ppl will not learn to like it and ppl will keep arguing till its altered, kinda sounds like you. I will defenatly remember this for a long time.
Of course it sounds like me, I said it. (Duh)
I will remember your failed attempts at putting words in my mouth with fondness for a long time, by the way.
Ah, and you do not agree that having a mission in a PVP area will be too hard for non PVPers. Or are they just not worthy of the master box due to their inherent inferiority?
Dont put words in my mouth, All im saying is, that if the devs where to put the mission in a pve area, it would most likely be a DWB in space
Why? You have yet been able to name one single reason as to why this would be so.
, and would be to great a risk to do, i would rathertake a pvp area to finish a mission with the chance of fighing other players that i can destroy.
Yes you would, and that is all that matters, right? And what you are saying here is that a PVE mission would have to be harder than PVP. Why? That a rather dumb thing to say. Especially when you can't back it up with any sane reasoning.
Where as a DWB in space will send wave apon wave of almost invincable ship that will keep you from a master title.
But why? Why would a PVE mission have to be so much harder than a PVP encounter? You are just not making any sense now.
It doesn't matter what the true definition of "greifer" is. What matters is that people will percieve it as griefing. And furthermore, that's quite beside the point, since the question was if these missions were designed as content for griefers.
There not designed for griefers so the word griefer should be left out totaly, and ppl playing in a pvp zone are not griefers because the area the pvp player plays in is ment for ppl to attack each other.
Again, you seem to read things that are not there.
So what do we do to fix this, well one would to really inform the non pvp players the mission is in a pvp zone, and let them make the choice to go in or not.andanotherway is to just move the mission out of the area completely.
Yes, and that move is what needs to be done to cause as little problems as possible.
Well we dont know what the devs view is on this and we dont know why, but from past experiance we can see what the devs are doing ad why. so we are here debating what is the better corse of action. and the debate goes on.....
And the best course of action is to move the mission, I have already given you about 8 very good reasons for that. You on the other hand, have not yet come up with one single reason as to why they should not be moved, except some strange notion that the missions would have to be harder than anything else. Ever.
Do you want ppl to fail if they go there, i dont, i want all players to be able to go in and try their best to complete the mission.
That's funny, just earlier you said that the only challenge is PVP. PVE can never be challenging. How can I then argue for people failing during these missions? And no, you don't want all players to be able to go in and try their best to complete the missions. If you did, you wouldn't object to these missions being moved one bit.
Again dont put words in my mouth, i just said having a mission in a pvp area will be challenging. pve can be boring, but it is also challenging. But arguing for ppl that fail the mission is good(keeps devs on there toes), but the key thing is that there trying, and maybe the non pvp players might find that they can do it, then we will find that having the mission in a pvp area was no problem at all.
But it IS a problem, a problem that you can't get around. The developers are trying to make people do something they don't wanna do, that is NOT a good idea.
But again you are stuck saying that this mission if for a griefer frag fest when its not.
It's not? Then why can:
A) People kill other people doing these missions, and by doing so ruin their progress?
Well in a pve area you could be doing a mission and a total random npcenemy just starts attacking you and kills you, does that ruin their progress to, does this mean we should get rid of all missions?
Grasping at straws again? That's not the same. Players can for the most part avoid NPC ships, they can never avoid PC ships. They can't even outrun the PC ships by jumping to hyperspace, since that will end their mission.
B) Camp the Corvettes for potential masters to kill
Wow camp an area in a pvp zone, I dont think a group of pvp players want to camp an area much since it makes them an easy target to find. Plus if they where camping a spot waiting, it would make it easier for you to surprise them.
There are several ways of camping an area. The dumbest way ever is to do it by staying at one single spot. Clever campers will camp the Corvette by staying within radar distance to it, all the time moving,while waiting for players to show up.
C) People come back to Kessel without problem if they are actually killed by someone doing the mission, while A is still in effect?
Yes some ppl will come back, but they will bring more ppl to help.
Uh? And that's supposed to make it better? Did you read what I said? If you kill someone during your mission, there is nothing that stops them from coming back for more. Now you are saying that "they will bring more people to help" and it's supposed to counter the "C)" statement somehow? Err...
You dont use radar much do you, a red dot is a red dot, and if it comes near me i react, dont you? The tools are there for you to use. the enemy is an enemy no matter what. They show up on my radar, i react. there is no difference if its a npc or a pvp player.
Since when does the radar show:
A) The heading of a target?
Ah, you dont know, the top half of the radar shows you whats in front of you, the bottom half shows whats in back of you. A beta tester like yourself didnt find this out, i learned it on day one. If the dot gets bigger is getting closer.
Considering that the radar was not resizable for the later part of the beta, and the fact that I have a high resolution, nope. Not once did I see the dots grow in size. I know EXACTLY how the Wing Commander radar works, and there is no possible way of knowing the heading of the dots while at the same time moving around and turning yourself.
B) The actual distance to the target?
The smaller the red square the father away it is, the bigger the closer it is. Go check it out it helps alot on tracking hits and your target. You current target will have a little blue box around it. and mission targets have yellow boxes.
Players are neither your current target nor mission targets while doing these missions. What you just said is irrelevant.
When you are busy fighting with a number of NPCs, you can't scan your target at all times. If you can, well, you are quite superhuman.
I track them all the time with the radar, my radar is my life, it tells me where everyone is and whats attacking me(the red dots flash when they are firing at you).
Wrong, the red dots flash when they hit you. Someone can be firing at you and miss for several minutes, the dots would not flash.
for a good way to keep on your targets trail, the radar is the best way to keep tab and what direction they are headed and sometimes you can anticipate there moves.It dont take a super human to work a radar.
It takes a super human to work the radar to spot incomming players while trying to dodge two-three gunboats, a couple of TIE oppressors and aggressors while at the same time trying to get a lock on the Corvette.
And how can you be stating that there is no difference between PVP and PVE? Why are you even arguing? Seems to me like you wouldn't care if the mission was moved or not.
I dont, im just saying that the mission in a pvp areais not a big deal and can be done.
Yes it can be done, I'm not arguing that fact. It can be done much smoother in a PVE area, and that's a bigger fact.
So basically, you think that the developers have a God given right to basically run us overwith any changes they want? Don't make me laugh again. The developers can't make changes to the game that the majority won't like, since they will loose business on that.
Yes, they have every right because its there game, they changed jedi because they didnt like what they saw and coincidently many ppl agreed.
Didn't you just state that you had 15+ years of experiencein retail? 15 years and you have never once heard the expression: "The customer is always right"?
But when they changed the jedi, the majority of ppl didnt like what they had do, but did ppl leave, some did. Some are just playing the game as normal and some are grinding there jedi. things change and you will have to get use to the fact that it sometimes it will be something you really dont like, but your just going to have to live with it.
First of all: They could change Jedi all they wanted, and the effect would still be smaller than anything they could ever do with the pilot profession. Jedi is a splinter of the game, Pilot IS the game.
Second: They HAD to change Jedi, because Jedi was in effect ruining the game through the hologrind. It's a pity that they did not figure this out sooner, would have saved them a lot of subscribers. They changed Jedi and the hologrind because it had to be done, because of a problem.
I think SOE should just drop the pretense and stop pretending this game is in any way balanced or open to PvE. They should come clean with their customers and admit that when they are done with it, this game will be completely PvP and all PvE content will be eliminated, because the way things are going this is going to be little more than just another Unreal clone.
It's too bad, this game has such potential to be more than just another PvP ego fest.
Naquiel wrote:
Ok then, why not take all pvp out of the game, No more GCW, no more battle fields, wich means no battles for ppl to have the GCW action in, and the ppl will leave , the items they bought will not be consumed, merchents will be broke where they cant buy there material and the game will just die from inactivity.
Boy you really plucked that out of thin air, didn't you? Nowhere did I even hint that all PVP should be removed from the game. I think it is a great idea for the devs to set up 2 PVP zones. It gives players who want to PVP a place to find it, something that can be very difficult to do on the ground. And, yet again, I say that PVP != GCW. The game has many many ways to participate in GCW combat without engaging in PVP. This was done, one would think, to draw in a large number of players...ones who like to PVP, ones who sometimes PVP, and ones who don't want to PVP at all. PVE is as big a part of the GCW as PVP is...perhaps bigger since more people PVE than PVP.
So why do people who HATE PVP have to go there in order to get a skill box? This was not very well thought out by the devs. Here's another simple reason why the mission should be moved out of the PVP zone. The people who get to master first will have a HUGE, unfair advantage over people who get there several months from now. They will not have to deal players interfering in their mission because there won't be many masters yet. So the whole issue of the added "challenge" of fighting players is thrown right out the window. Not everyone will have to deal with players attacking because there won't be anyone there yet.
Naquiel wrote:
Oh and for the ppl getting left behind to defend them selves, i would like to pint out the one thing that has helped get ppl away from danger, and that is the nifty hyperdrive option. When things look to hot, just jump out. then later you can try again.
Sure, hyperspace out to keep from being killed, your mission fails and you have to start all over again. I wouldn't think people will have time to hyperspace out before getting killed. If you are getting attacked by both NPC's and players, it's much more likely that you'll get blown up before the hyperdrive kicks in.
There is little to no reason whatsoever to have a PVE mission in PVP zones. There are many many reasons to move it away from PVP.
Phienyx wrote:Let me ask one question. Do you really think that this game would really represent any war or conflict if you could join a military operation (Alliance/Imperial) and accomplish all there is to accomplish in relative safety? You cannot always avoid or run from a fight if you wish to accomplish your goal. At the moment, this expansion concentrates on space combat in one form or another. What difference does it really make wheather this is against an NPC or a real player? If you do not like space combat, get in your nice little yacht and just cruise around. This small percentage of the expansion that requires you to enter a PvP area is not enough to warrant this whine fest. If you do not complete this portion of the current set of missions, you are not losing anything except a title that is more about pride and ego than missing any actual game content. If you choose not to do this portion of the missions, are not prevented from doing much of anything. This is Star WARS for crying out loud where people fought people, not just predictable, computer controlled AI entities.Its ridiculous that people expect to join a game that is centered around a war, but want to engage in the combat aspect of the game in relative "safety". That very idea is obsurd. If you do not want to be attacked by players and or/NPCs stay out of combat vehicles clearly marked as such and stay out of combat areas. Its plain and simple and it is a choice you have to make.Personally, I wouldn't mind if most of space was pvp enabled. I think that all but the basic familiarization missions should be in open PvP areas. Keep the WAR in Star Wars for crying out loud and get rid of all these posers.
Repeat after me: PVP != GCW. No matter how much you may want it to be, PVP != GCW. And it won't either, because the game was designed to attract a large number of players, with varying playstyles. It is designed to bring in those who love to PVP, those who want to PVP sometimes and PVE other times, those who PVE only, and even those who do not want any combat whatsoever. Of course at release, JTL holds virtually nothing for the last type of player to do. Hopefully that will change in time.
PVP is a part of the GCW, absolutely. For those who enjoy PVP, whether all the time or some of the time, PVP battles should be the most fun part of the game. I don't want to take that fun away from anyone who likes to PVP. The devs even created two PVP zones in space to facilitate PVP battles. So why do you want to take away the fun for PVE-only players?
PVE is also a part of the GCW. One fundamental reason why people may refuse to PVP at all is the attitudes of some of those PVP players. The attitudes that compel people to say things like "I PWNED JU NOOB!" after defeating an unbuffed player while loading in at the starport. The ground game has a number of these players, which is one reason why the ground game doesn't have more PVPers. Of course, uber armor, weapons, DOTS, buffs, etc etc, are an even bigger reason, but still it's the attitude of some that turn away others. Now that is NOT to say that all PVPers are like that. I would say most are not. But the vocal minority of uber-leet ruins the fun for many.
And those players will be in space, and will be in Kessel for the sole purpose of seeking out players doing the PVE mission. They will have better equipment and will be waiting until the mission-taker is engaged with NPCs before attacking. They will again be "PWNING THE NOOB". And it will tick people off...especially those who have no interest in PVP.
Message Edited by SpaceCrazy on 11-01-2004 09:51 AM
Zaivor wrote:
Ok on my first post ive just got to say this.
Welcome to the boards.
I thought this game was based on Star Wars?
doesn't that mean that some missions would require you having to do things you won't find easy?
Yes, but there is a bigger issue here. Not everyone is into PVP, not should they be. It should all be optional. Challenge can be done through PVE as well as PVP.
No matter if its NPC or Another group of players I think this makes the game that much better because now You have to out smart, out plan, out do something much worse than anything someone could just code. You have to out smart the dredge the absolute scum of the Galaxy you got to out do A player and that to me is alot better than just doing it over and over again with a npc.
It's a bit complicated, but these missions doesn't really contain any outsmarting our outplanning. Only thing you can "out-do" people by is to visit the area at an off hour.
A player gives you something you can have emotions for can make you hate something can make you want to just beat the snot and ever living breath out of someone and that makes the game more real cause do you think in SW that all the tie fighters were flying around killing rebels for just one reason "because something greater than them has them doing it?" no its because they chose a side.
Problem A: Neutral pilots have to do the same missions.
Problem B: PVP rarely makes the game feelmore real, roleplaying does however. And of course a combination of the both works best for immersion.
Its war folks. war sucks live with it or just stay out of it. till something else is put in game to take your mind off the fact that there are people playing the war and winning and losing. I know you all love this game or else you wouldnt be fighting so much about it. Relax you know that sooner than later you will get what you want or at least what you think you want. and no matter of argueing in this forum will change the fact that alot will disagree and some will not.
With all this said let me tell you this little bit about me. Im guildless I dont play well with others and i much rather be dealing with taxes than argueing on this thread so i just wanted to add my 3 cents and would like change please.
Z
Hehe!
You are playing the wrong game. Planetside would work better for you. The focus of SWG has never been PVP, and should never be that either, if you want the game to remain.
Phienyx wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't mind if most of space was pvp enabled. I think that all but the basic familiarizationmissions should be in open PvP areas. Keep the WAR in Star Wars for crying out loud and get rid of all these posers.