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Thread: Concerning the Pro's of Forced PvP Mastership......
Phienyx wrote:
Anything less, and it is only a lame title and worth nothing. IMO, there is enough crap in the game that is lame and worthless. We need this to mean something.
There is a problem with this, though. You can't really make the title mean anything, because both PVE and PVP is rather meaningless. Before you'll reply to this, let me explain:
The notion that something in the game "means" something is all up to personal perception and experiences. What means something for you, might not mean anything for someone else. In effect: Everything is meaningless.... From a certain point of view. In reality it is just a lame title worth nothing. It's worth nothing except what value, you yourself give to it.
The key here is to do what will offend the least amount of people and turn the missions into pure PVE missions. If people feel a need to do something that "means something", by all means, give them the same missions in Kessel as something to do after they master. Nothing is really gained by the current setup.
Phienyx wrote:
When I say "mean something" I mean in context with the game. The fact that a player can handle anything thrown at them PVE ro PVP, to me, deserves (in context to the game) master/ace.
Yes, that was the point I was making. To you, that is what it means. For someone else, that might mean nothing at all. (But to collect all types ofjunk loot items might mean something).
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
OMG!!!! Are you not bothering to think at all? If master "does not mean anything at all" Why in the name of all that is possible to name are you even arguing?
1. Im not arguing, im justdebating that you dont have pertanant evidence that says that the devs should move the master mission out of the pvp area.
Uh, yeah. Debating is pretty much a form of argumentation.
I'm lacking evidence? Need I remind you that NOT A SINGLE PERSON HAS YET BEEN ABLE TO JUSTIFY THESE MISSIONS AT ALL.
Dont get away from your own question. I want evidence from you that proves that every pvpv player in a pvp zone is a griefer. To me you justification of moving the missions out of a pvp area is not justafiable.
And 2. saing that ppl will get greifed is not a viable answer since you dont know if ppl will get griefed at all.
Om my freakin' God. You are the one person here who is constantly bringing up this issue about griefing. Get over it. Now.
No you are the one bring it up, you are basing your whole theroy that the mission should be moved out of the pvp area due to possible griefing from pvp players. You not me, im just pointing out you dont have your facts straight.
Seems to me like you are arguing for the BIGGEST NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MANKIND. Your own damn thinking has hit the same wall.
No i havent hit a wall, i just keep showing you more and more of what you are missing from the big picture.
You are arguing for nothing. That's pretty much hitting the wall as much as anything. I'm not missing anything from the big picture, if anything, you are because of your absolute ineptness in seeing things from other viewpoints than your own.
I see the whole picture, i see your view i see my view and i see the other views that most ppl dont see, but you dont like them so you are refusing to achknowlage any of it. Well if im arguing for nothing i have2sayings for you and you should remember them well:
"Never argue with a fool, some ppl might not know the difference."
"Never argue with a fool, they will only bring you down to their lvl and beat you with experiance."
I will let you deside who the fool is.
Here is a few facts for you:
Combat does not equal PVP, nor does it equal PVE. Combat is a part of both, so naturally better ships and parts will benefit both.
Ah, didnt i say that there is no difference between pvp and pve. In combat npc's and players can shoot and kill on equel terms, its just we on the reciving end of combat chose who we like to fight. We are selective on what to fight, but when it comes time where that control is out of there hands, the word grief comes up. Just stop using the word grief since you still dont know what it means.
Ok, seriously. You must have some kind of unhealthy fixation to the word "grief". You are constantly bringing it up. If anything, you are the one who needs to stop using it so carelessly.
Then dont play around the word and put it out in the open insted of tying to word your statments in a sugar coated way. Again you have based your whole argument that non pvp players going into a pvp zone will get griefed and now you say i should staop talking about it, i think you are trying to skirt the issues because you now realise you are wrong.
The POB ships are more PVE items than they are PVP items. By your own logic, this would mean that the master box is worth even LESS for a PVPer.
No, i said in past posts that if the mutliplayer ships are moved to the 4xxx box than the ppl that dont want to do combat will have there ships to play in pve, and the master combat ships in the masterbox can stay for the ones that tend to do massive combat in pve or pvp. This will show that ppl really just want the multiplayer ships more than the master title.
So really, the only thing you want here is to further your own goals? What you want to set in stone is that PVE players are worth less than PVP players. They are just inferior to you, and not worthy of the master title?
No, why would i want to only further my own goals, i gave an option that will let ppl that want to get the multiplayers ships without being a master pilot, and still gave the option for ppl that still want the master title to get it, there is no problem in what i said.
If you are even going to disagree with my above statements, you would have to agree on the fact that these missions would work just as nicely as optional content for the post master era.
But they will wok just the same in a pvp area.
You have YET been able to mention one single thing to justify these missions, you have said NOTHING to the effect on why these missions and the skill boxes should be unattainable by people who do not wanna PVP.
You have YET to mention a single thing other than that placing the mission in a pvp area is just a griefing issue.
Ok, read this out loud a few times: I, Vicotnik, am not bringing up the grief issue all the time. YOU are. I've stated numerous times what's wrong with these missions. And I'm sure not going to do that again. If you feel like reading those reasons, scroll up a few pages and read.
Excuce me,All i get from you is, that when a non pvp player goes to a pvp zone to finish a mission you say they are going to be griefed, and you based you whole argument around it, and now your telling me to stop talking about it. No, im am staying on the subject because this thread is about it and you spacificly are arguing about it.
You dont know if the ppl in the pvp area are just there to grief, and each time you keep posting it i have to wonder if you are a pvp player like ou say you are, because you know what i say is true, and that not all players in a pvp area are griefers
OMG, get over the damn griefing issue already, if you had payed any attention at all, you would have known that the griefing issue is just a part of the flaw in these missions.
And again: NAME ONE FREAKING THING THAT JUSTIFIES THESE MISSIONS.
No, since you have chose to ignor what i have to say, and now you are trying very hard to stop me from dealing with the griefing issue you brought up. You should just give up because im wavering from my point of view which is the whole picture.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 10-31-2004 02:31 AM
SpaceCrazy wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
So i will ask you this, Give me a reason that the master title mission should not be in a pvp zone other than its a possible greifing problem.
This statement right here is reason enough. Anything that permits griefing should be fixed or removed from the game. Griefing is bad for everyone. It can happen and will happen if this PVE mission remains in the PVP zone, especially a couple months down the road when there are a lot of master pilots. And innocent PVPers will be accused of being griefers because of this.
Many of the people I see supporting the current setup say that to be a true master pilot, you should have to fight actual players. Considering this is a game where all PVP is supposed to be consentual, I disagree with that statement. Setting that aside for the moment, this mission is a PVE mission in a PVP zone. During the mission where you have to kill 30 NPC ships, even if you defeat every player that tries to attack you, you STILL have to beat 30 NPC ships. And chances are, that won't happen because you are very likely to at least take damage from the engagement with other players. You could very well use all missiles and countermeasures that you may need for the NPC ships.
There is no incentive to do anything but try and run away from the player who is attacking you. But the player isn't an NPC that will give up the chase so easily. Yes, I've heard all the "bring a group" statements too, but there will be groups of players looking to attack you as well. So your group, which I understand will most likely be needed to complete the PVE part, gets taken out by other players, leaving you again much less likely to complete the mission.
Use the hyperdrive, thats what its there for.
Anything that permits griefing should be fixed or removed from the game. By having a PVE mission in a PVP zone, with no points for engaging in PVP, you are giving the griefers permission to ruin the fun of other players. Players who may love to PVP but want to get to Master Pilot without PVP. Players who may be interested in trying PVP are more likely to be turned off by this mission. And PVE players, who want nothing at all to do with PVP, will certainly never try PVP.
Take the PVE mission out of the PVP zone.
Ok then, why not take all pvp out of the game, No more GCW, no more battle fields, wich means no battles for ppl to havethe GCW actionin, and the ppl will leave , the items they bought will not be consumed, merchents will be broke where they cant buy there material and the game will just die from inactivity.
The only problem of a possible griefing problem only occures when a person dont understand what griefing means.
In a pvp zone there really is no grifing. The rules of the zone are that when your there you are to defeat your enemy by any means in your power. This can be from better ships and parts, surprise or better skill.
The only time the word grief comes up when a person dont understand the rules of the area and they feel they are being singled out when they are attacked. No grifing is happening because anyone in that area is just playing by the rules that is they are to defeat there enemy when they come across it.
Oh and for the ppl getting left behind to defend them selves, i would like to pint out the one thing that has helped get ppl away from danger, and that is the nifty hyperdrive option. When things look to hot, just jump out. then later you can try again. You see groups will be on both sides, and thigs will get interesting. But the same happens in the pve areas that it does in the pvp areas, your grouped and npc/pvp ships pop out of nowhere and swarm on you. You do what you can to ether defeat the problem or get away.
Being in the pvp zone is just like being in the pve areas, its just you have to be a little more ready to react to a situation.
Slarus wrote:
The bottom line for me is this: A master or aceshould be able to defeat or avoid most griefers otherwise there is the question of if they really deserve the title of master/ace of all inhabitants of the game. Anything less, and it is only a lame title and worth nothing. IMO, there is enough crap in the game that is lame and worthless. We need this to mean something.
On another note, I dare say that NPCs, given their computer controlled AI, at master level, will be much more of a threat than the few morons who might take time out of productive game play to "grief".
Avoid griefers, right as they advance in level (Most griefers are also die hard players) more will group together for the goal of preventing EVERYONE else from achieving Master. Listen carefully, they will have only the one goal in mind, PLUS you need to deal with the PvE content which is a challenge. The notion that PvP is the only challenge is biased, many people are quite challenged by the PvE, many people while may not be challenged by PvE find it undesirable to fire on a fellow player at all, or maybe in rare extremes.
This is a tool for those few but powerful and organized griefers (Not PvPers out for fun) to practice thier faith.
Form those who say we have a choice, let me clearify that choice.
You can chose to play JTL; Choice.
You can chose to get to pilot 4444; choice,
You can chose to get master pilot; choice
You can choice PvP; Not always.
If you want Master Pilot you are forced by that choice to PvP in a game that was advertised as being consentual, chosing to get Master is accepting PvP but not chosing it.
This mission is a griefers dream, we all know it talking about PvPers is just dodging the issue, THOSE WHO WILL BENIFIT THE MOST FROM THIS ARE GRIEFERS, NOT ONE OTHER PERSON. Every other player will go PvP if they want regardless of this mission, but only the griefers will have new content, this fact cannot be denied, it was happening in beta and it will happen here. Every beta issue still here will be ten fold as more people are live then beta, so if one of the top complaints was this forced PvP in beta, now it is ten times as worse here.
No, you say its a griefers dream, i would like to see proff that griefers will be there to stop ppl. How is it griefing if the area that the mission is in is made for ppl to shoot each other. There is no griefing, get your facts straight.
Naquiel wrote:
I do plan for the future, but im talking about what is in the game RIGHT NOW. If you want to talk about the future we can, but for no, lets talk about now.
No, let's not. You inability to think ahead is completely besides the point. And yes, it is quite an inability, since you refuse to accept that there are future content.
I would love to see a screen shot, but i want a current screen shot, and since you dont have JTL yet it would be kinda hard.(you see i can read other threads to).
That was not at all the issue here, the issue was that I never ever have been told that by the space station. The fact that it's not a post beta screenshot means nothing in that matter.
sure, post it.
Here, enjoy: http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=setandget&tp=144300&poll_id=0&category_id=19&warned=y
No im not running out of arguments since im not arguing, im just pointing out that you will not even look at the whole picture of what is going on.
I'm not looking at the big picture? It is YOU who absolutely lack the ability of seeing things from other points of views than your own, thank you very much. And... You are not arguing? Yeah, funny. Very funny.
Give me one thing that is stopping a person from goig to the pvp area to do the mission, there is nothin. Its the persons choice of not going that is only stopping them, not the devs. you see choice is the word here, you can chose to go or not, is all up to the person.
There is plenty, and you have already read that in several threads. Don't make me repeat myself.
well looking at what i said, your right NOT Everyone wants one, Just alot of ppl want one and the ones trying for jedi are jumping through the devs hoops to get one. But as you can see there still grinding away.
That's not what you said, what you said is that EVERYONE wants one. I don't even have to put words in your mouth to point this flaw in your thinking out. Don't generalize, it's not healthy. Make up your mind, please.
Ok let me clarify, if you play a game and you want to win, Do you do what ever you can to finish the game? Here in this game, many ppl have many goals they want done befor they think the game is finished. For many, jedi is there goal, formany it is becoming a master pilot, forsome even just being a master entertainer is good enough. the point is many ppl will do what they need to do to reach a goal, and the only thing stoping them is theirself.
And that is exactly why the goal of something that is aimed towards everyone should very well be avaliable to everyone. But ofcourse, since you lack the ability of seeing things from different points of views. You'll disagree with this.
How about this, why not make it like another DWB but put it in space. I wonder how many ppl will really complain about it. I can think many more would hate it.
The DWB is not attainable by everyone. By doing that, you would ensure that becomming a pilot would just be something for powergamers, and that's just trading one evil for another lesser one.
How? Since you have played pvp, tell me what makes it different.
First of all, there is the entire issue of intelligence: NPCs are dumb, players are at the very least nominally intelligent. (though, some don't show it very well)
Second, NPCs lacks unpredictability, players do not.
Third, Players and NPCs quite differ in ship characteristics, not that this is how it should be, but it is the way the developers went.
Fourth, NPCs can't harbour any permanent grudges against you. If you get one on your tail, you can just shake them off. A player can hound you until the game is shut down. NPCs lack emotions, players do not.
Differences enough for you? Or are you actually going to state that they are similar in these respects?
You dont know this. How do you know that its not challenging being in a pvp area?
How is it with your reading comprehension? That's not what I am saying at all. Putting the missions in a PVP area may very well be challenging, but this is the issue and read it carefully: PVP is not the only way of creating challenges. This ties in with the fact that PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP. And for that matter: PVE != Challenge. Challenge != PVE.
Since PVP is not the only way of creating challenge, logic states that you should not use PVP to create challenge for something that is supposedly aimed for everyone.
Well, if you look, maybe the devs did something different to make things better, did you think of that. since the ground was broken and ppl where getting bored, they would try something different, They did it with jedi and found ppl kept going, not they are trying it in JTL. You see the devs are always changing things to make it more challenging, but making a DWB in space would not fly with many.
Again: The DWB is a dungeon aimed for powergamers, that would not be a good idea either. And no, they are most certainly not "trying something different" here. If they were, you would be overt 24/7 while in a factioned ship. Why not? It's the only real way to give "meaning" and make "missions challenging" according to you.
Im not tiptoing anything, the devs made jediforced pvp. Wile here with JTL a person has a choice to pvp or not.
Give that up, will you? Jedi is but a splinter of SWG. Pilot is the core of JTL. What you are saying here is that people who dislike PVP should not even get JTL.
If you chose to do the pvp to just get the master title, then it will be done, you wount have to go back at all, but if you chose not to go, its your choice to. You see ppl are not forced.
There is no choice, but keep telling yourself that it is. Sheesh.
Then tell me why you said, "The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel." Sounds like your saying that the ppl that would be sad are the griefers.
Well, yes. Are you saying that you are a griefer here? Not once did I state that this applied to EVERYONE in the PVP area, you did. No,what I saidwas that: If you get upset with these missions being moved, you were quite obviously looking forward to easy targets.
So instead of wording the sentence to sound different. why dont you acctuly say what the easy target is and who is doing the targeting.
What, I have to define my sentences into the smallest parts now? What the hell is this? Pre-school?
I know what you where saying and you where saying that the only ppl that would be sad would be the griefers not having something to shoot at, but again you still dont know that the ppl that play in the pvp area are a griefer. So dont sugar coat the subject and just say what you really mean.
Are you completely lacking the ability to comprehend one measly line of text? NOT ONCE DID I STATE THAT ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE PVP AREA ARE GRIEFERS, you did. WHAT I DID STATE WAS THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO CAN BE UPSET ABOUT THIS WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING EASY TARGETS.
Who says the non pvp person coming into the zone wont fight back? If you go to some place you dont know in the game and ether a npc' or a pvp player is shooting at you, what do you do, I would think you would have sence enough to fire back.
If you're a non pvp person, you won't have any chance at fireing back. If you do, that's one crappy PVPer.
You keep saing that all non pvp players are easy targets, well if they are then they would have a hard time just getting up to 4444 pilot.
No they wouldn't. PVP is a completely different thing thatn PVE. If you place someone who has only played as a PVE pilot in a PVP area, they will have no experience of PVP and know nothing about what to expect. That is what makes them easy targets during the mission. Of course, you fail to see this, since you can only look at things from your own, ego-centric point of view.
So again, dont sugar coat that non pvp players are easy targets when i know many knoe how to fight back. And the ones that cant know friends that can help.
Oh yes, the "get friends" excuse. It doesn't work to justify these missions, but we've already been through all that a couple of times now.
No, you didnt say it outright, but you tip toed around it by carefully wording your sentence differently. I know what you said so i just posted it how it should be, unless you want to repost what you really ment tto say. Pleaseexplain what you ment when you said,"The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel."
Don't blame your inability to comprehend text on me. I've already said what I meant with that sentence above, but here it is again: "The only people who could ever be upset if these missions were moved from Kessel would logically be people looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel." Oh, and of course, you want a five-page disclaimer with each sentence, so here:
1) Not once did I state that this sentence applies to all PVPers, you made that conclusion, not me. Tells a bit more about how you view the subject than how I view it.
2) Not once did I state that this sentence applies to everyone in Kessel, you made that conclusion.
3) Don't put words in other peoples mouths. It doesn't work very well at all.
I would think he would say your are playing around with your words trying look like you dont want to say what you really mean.
No, I quite blatantly state what I mean here. You are the one calling people griefers, not me.
It might be an odd statment, but im just saying that a player at 4444 is not going to be an easy target, and you should not make them out to be an easy target.
Wrong. Someone completely unexperienced with PVP will be an easy target. Someone completely unexperienced with FPS games will be an easy target.
The only time a person is a target is when they make themselves one. If you deside to go to the pvp area to do the mission, what would you do to perpare? one would to make sure you had a good ship, well stocked and ready for action, and the same for the rest of the group. Two would to plan out what you and your group is going to do. Three would to practice befor going in and try to learn some piloting tricks that will surprise the enemy. and Four, go during a time when you know its mostly clear of the enemy.
And this has exactly what to do with my statement? The fact is clear as crystal: The missions does not actually include any PVP at all. They just make you a target.
No it does exactly go with your statment. You say that non ppl going into a pvp area is only going to be a target, well all im saying that ppl are smart and will not make themselves a target, and by knowing what there getting into and perparing ahead of time, they will try hard not to be a target. Do make it that a person will go into the zone as a total noob, when there not.
You are STILL not getting this, are you? Someone who hasn't done any PVPing IS going in as a total noob in the area. Especially since most of them won't even know that Kessel is THE hotspot for PVP.
But it does, justify these missions. Since you have been reading and noticed that i have been saying that you should "group up" and "fight back" really is a big hint to getting the mission done.
Not once does this justify these missions. Not in any single respect does this justify these missions when the same could be achieved without PVP.
Did you thing the devs wanted to have ppl group up and fight together to get a mission done and to see that they can defeat the pvp players that would be in the pvp area. Give ppl a little more credit, they can do the mission like any other mission if they work on it.
Still does not justify these missions, the very same could be achieved through a PVE solution.
This does serve a purpose, the devs use past game experiance to help make changes to the game to keep ppl playing. And your still not understanding that the devs want master pilot to be a challenge and doinng something different will make ppl try harder to reach there goal. Place the mission in a pve area will mean everyone and there brother will have the master title and the title will loose its meaning. Agian you still need to look at the whole picture of what is going on.
I need to look at the big picture? Please, it is you who are stuck in the same corner all the damn time. This serves no purpose that cannot be served through PVE means. What you are in effect saying here is that PVE can never be challenging. PVE can never be dynamic. Yeah, right.
Wrong, some parts of the game are from the player community, the rest is from the devs and LA. The devs have to place things in the game a certain way frome time to time to keep ppl playing, and it just happens that this mission is one of them.
No, you are quite wrong. PVP is not dev created, it is player created. If you enter the Kessel area at different times of the day, you will notice that the population is very different. This is not something that the developers can control, if they could, the mission would have the same difficulty at all hours.
Yes i bring up the broken ground game, but did it ever occure to you that idea ofwhat they put here in JTL might come up in the ground game in the future? You see the devs are always changing things, and some ppl like the changes and some dont, we know you dont like.
No, it won't come up in the ground game. They would loose too many subscribers, and JTL will prove that it won't work in a game that is mainly based around PVE.
We obviously know what you like too, seems thatthrough your unhealthy fixation with the word "griefer" and the fact that you think that everyone in the PVP areas will be upset if these missions are moved... You must be one yourself. Feels funny when people place words in your mouth, doesn't it?
I do plan for the future, but for this debate we are talking about what is here now. But for now going into the pvp area is optional, you can go , or not to go. Plain and simple.
No, we are not taling about what is here and now. IF we were, I would never have brought that up. You might be talking about the here and now, I'm not. You might lack the ability of thinking ahead, I sure don't.
They do market there own games, i have read up on this game from many web sites, mags, and the most important the dev tracker from these forums. Any person has the abbility to read it. Its not the resoponsability of SOE or any company to make sure ppl read the info. SOE and anyother company has the responsability to make sure the info is there for ppl to read.
So basically you are saying that game companies should not even really bother to actively market their games? Their potential customers will find out everything they need to find out? That is not how commercialism works.
Look in the dev tracker, you will find our answers. The only thing they didnt say is why the mission is in a pvp area. Get your statment straght.
If you are going to point out where the answers are, provide a better detailed way of finding them. Here is where they are not: IN the thread "Master Mission Corvettes". Nor in the thread started by Swede about the rebel missions. They are not in any of the focus threads either.
Again you dont see the whole picture. Lets say a non pvp player wants to get the mission done to get to master pilot, that person groups up with others that want to get there mission done to, but they get the help of other ppl that have gotten there master title. they plan things out and go in. The ppl that are masters make friends with non masters. Woah, team work is good, try it. And where do you think that ppl will be friends whith there attackers, i didnt say they would be friends, i said that ppl will become friends of the same faction wich in turn will work for both pvp and non pvp players helping each other get the mission done.
Again: Reading comprehension is your friend. The issue was about the PVP-PVE relations and the promotion of PVP. Not about making friends and master-non master relations.
Did i say they where inferior? Stop putting words im my mouth. Im just saying that most ppl going for the master title just want the multiplayer ships, and after they get the ships they really wouldnt care about anything else after that, but there is a few that would want more, by putting the multiplayer ships in the 4th ship certification box will give ppl even mosr of a choice to continue on if they want. Nothing inferior about it.
Yes, you have quite often stated that they are inferior. You have quite often stated that only people who face the "challenge" of PVP should be worth the master title. I didn't even have to put words in your mouth for this, you did it very well yourself. And furthermore, what do you mean by "most ppl going for the master title just wants the multiplayer ships". What are you basing this on, or can you actually read minds. The fact is, you can't base that on anything, that is just an assumption. (What was it that ghoul in Fallout said about assuming things?)
In the above green text you state that you did not say they were inferior, and yet again you end the text with stating that they are inferior. What you are saying is that: "move the POB ships down to 4-4-4-4, so that only those worth the master box gets it".
Good for you. Obviously, you are quite not capable of seeing things from other points of views. It seems like you are a bit too ego-centric.
Who has to much ego? its not me. Im looking from all views which you keep ignoring,
No, you are looking from your own view, you have proven that quite a few times throughout these posts. Part of your own view actually seems to be that you think that most PVPers are griefers, since you tend to bring that up 24/7.
you have your view which is you dont like te idea of the final mission is in an area that some ppl wound not want to go. I achknowlage that,
No, you don't.
but i came to the disscusion with my point of view and a few more views you chose to ignor, and you are arguing with me with no pertanant evidnce thay your view is the dead set view that the mission needs to be changed.
I've already stated quite a few reasons as to why it needs to be changed. You on the other hand, have not even been able to state one reason that justifies the missions.
Just try and break from the rut you put yourself into. leave emotion out of the picture and look at all the views from a detectives point of view and you will see that both pvp and pve players are really not that different.
The only reason I'm showing "emotion" here is that I have argued about this for a few hundred posts now, and frankly I'm very tired of it. Doesn't mean I will stop though, since all thearguments I hear arerather notvalid. And furthermore, this isn't about the nature of PVP and PVE players at all.
Im not saying that pvp will mean anything, Just surviving a mission in a pvp area will give meaning.
Again, that is in your view. In someone elses view that means nothing at all. Things don't have more meaning than what we give to them. What you find meaningful, someone else might find laughable. Some people might find collecting broken sandstats meaningful, while you don't. Didn't you just state that you were looking at this from many points of views? You obviously are not, since you just stated quite clearly that "surviving a mission in a pvp area will give meaning." It won't. In effect, everything is meaningless until you give it meaning.
Please enlightin us with what the differences are then, or better yet let me break it down for you to its basic components.
I already have, but since you keep ignoring them, I guess I will repeat myself:
1. Pilot and jedi are a goal ppl want, ppl will grind there way up to get them.
Fact: Jedi is but a splinter of the SWG game, aimed for a smaller group of people.
Fact: Pilot is the Core of the JTL expansion, aimed for the masses.
Conclusion: There is a whooping difference between these two "goals".
2. The devs put things in the game to slow players down. Wow grinding missions.
3. to reach the final goal you want you have to pass a test to get your reward, in this case a jedi and a master pilot.
Well there you go, plain and simple.
Nope, neither plain nor simple. Can't be that since you are quite obviously wrong here. Might be because you are very locked into the notion that everyone wants a Jedi. I mean, you want one, so everyone must want one, right? How was that thing about seeing things from different points of views again?
Read the facts and the conclusion above. Jedi and Pilots are two completely different things. Now, if you had been taking all the marksman, hybrid and brawler combat professions and compared them to the pilot profession, that would have worked. Of course... Since neither of these professions would work in this context, you must remain with your silly notion that Jedi and Pilot are similar. Right?
Yes im basing it on an old broken ground game and what we see now in JTL is what is the new way of what the devs are going for, or dod you miss that point. there placing things at certain points to make it harder for you to get to your goal so it will mean more for you in the end. Its simple logic that will let you see this.
No, you are missing the points, over and over again. The point (and this is an undeniable fact) is that IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE PVP TO BE HARDER. Or are you actually going to disagree on this? If so, why are you even playing SWG?
I did not say that tuffer= PVP, you keep saying it.
No I'm not, you're the one blathering about "Challenge" and the master box "meaning" something.
I say having a mission in a pvp area is a way for a person to test there skills to finishing a mission.
Not an acceptable way, sorry. Not in a PVE and PVP optional game.
for example, what if the mission was in a pve area, you have ships left and right shooting at you to keep you from reaching your goal, yo fight back to clear the way....But wait, you would be doing the same in the pvp area to. So what is the difference, NONE.
Scroll back up the where I list the difference between PVP and PVE. They are both very different animals, thank you very much.
You are completely stuck in your own views here, you cannot even start to imagine that people would disagree with you here. YOU don't see any difference, other people will. YOU might not have a problem with PVP, other people will.
I said might, im not a time travler so i dont know, but its something to try.
Don't need to be a time traveler to make theories and speculation. For instance, here is one theory: SOE will change these missions in a few months time, they will find out that they won't work in the end. It will be almost impossible to get these skill boxes for people who got into space a few months after everyone esle.
Your not, or else you would not be arguing with me on this, you are refusing to achknowledge my point of view as part of the whole picture.
No, I'm certain your point of view exists as a part of the whole picture. It's just not valid in one bit. And stick to the subject here: You think you will have a better overall experience due to this, but you are unable to see that people who dislike PVP won't, Right?
Nothing in JTL is handed on a silver platter. And it wouldn't be in the ground game if things worked properly.
Then why are the devs changing the combat system? Maybe the devs are changing in the ground game to make things work for a better game and that what they have in JTL is the way there going, did you ever think of that,
Please read what you reply to. They are changing the combat system in the ground game BECAUSE IT'S NOT WORKING PROPERLY. After the combat rebalance/revamp/upgrade/pool party (or whatever they decide on calling it), hopefully nothing will be handed on a silver platter. Hopefully solo groups will be gone. Hopefully people can enter combat without wearing bulky armor. Hopefully the game will be more Star Warsy, and less "Battlestar Galactica-composite wars".
You are just ignoring these facts, are you? : Challenge != PVP, PVP != Challenge. Challenge == a lot of different things.
No you are ignoring that the challenge is to survive going through an area of the game where most will hardly ever go to, that is the challenge.
Yet again, you are ingoring the facts. That can be done without there being any PVP in the picture.
Devs made the rules of the area the mission is in, the devs chose the place to put the mission in, so its the devs challenge for us to try to beat.
No, the developers have not created this challenge. If they had, it would be constantly the same, not varied. It would not increase for every day that goes by (more master pilots, more skilled pilots). The players have created the challenge here (and in fact, the first few master pilots will not really face any challenge while doing the missions), the developers have just made a lazy mission development.
Yes it should be challenging, everything in the game should be challenging, if it wasnt, then things get boring and stagnant. Look at the ground game, its not very challenging whan most ppl can solo almost everything, and is a reason why many ppl left for the lack of content because the players blew threw the content so fast. and if you look at PVE right now you will see that you will ultimatly learn all the AI moves in the game and they again blow though the content.
BS. Complete and utter BS. People blitz through the content in the ground game because it is a broken game.You have some form of delusion that PVE can never ever be challenging, and that's rather silly. There are plenty of MMOs out there that absolutely proves that you are wrong about this.Or is it that you would prefer a game without no PVE at all?
Hello, didnt i say the devs are changing the ground game, and that JTL is the way there headed.
Not in this text, no you didn't. What you said here is that the game is to easy, people are leaving because of that fact.
Think hard. Look whats in front of you. Every change the devs have been doing has been to make the content at the end of some content difficult, this time they put the content in anarea some ppl dont like. To bad, learn to just get it done and move on.
No, people will not learn to like it. People will keep arguing against it until it is altered.
Right, ppl will not want to go if it is to hard. I would not want a DWB in space becasue the risk is to great, where just doing a one mission in a pvp area is more of a chance to get the mission done.
Ah, and you do not agree that having a mission in a PVP area will be too hard for non PVPers. Or are they just not worthy of the master box due to their inherent inferiority?
Just like the final mission to be a master pilot, you just have to plan it out and you will see that it will be challenging to play in an area that is not entirely predictible. And they would not get upset if most ppl would get the idea that every pvp player is NOTa griefer.
These missions will do absolutely NOTHING at all for people to get that idea. Get that into your line of thinking, already.
So your saying that all pvpplayers are griefers than?
Yet again, no. I'm not, but you seem very intent on bringing that up.
You dont want ppl to know that pvp players are not griefers and they are just following the ruleset of the area there playing in?
Err, what? That didn't even make sense. What I am saying here is that innocent PVPers will be percieved as griefers by non PVPers. And that is all that matters. Do you not see how this would make morepeople think that all PVPers are griefers?
I think letting ppl know what to expect whats in the game is better than not telling them nothing at all.
They didn't tell us anything about this at all, it was all found out by beta testers.
It doesn't matter what the true definition of "greifer" is. What matters is that people will percieve it as griefing. And furthermore, that's quite beside the point, since the question was if these missions were designed as content for griefers.
No it does since you are going out of your way to say that all pvp players are griefers when there not.
No, I'm bloody well not. Pay some freakin' attention next time. I've stated AGAIN, and AGAIN, and AGAIN in this very thread that what you just wrote is one big fat lie. Don't make things up, it's not nice. Don't put words in my mouth, they make be retch.
And me saying it here and explaining what ppl should expect will give them a better view of what a pvp area is acctuly like, and what they have to do to get the mission done when they get there, but you keep saying is not relivent.
Because it is not relevant. During the hologrind you could state what playing a dancer or musician is actually like. That wouldn't get the hologrinders to actually play the professions. If they hadn't been able to AFK-grind the professions to death, you would have seen a huge outcry that people were "forced" into playing professions they don't want to to reach their goal. Same thing here: SOE is trying to get people to do something they don't want to, exactly how that thing is like isactually quite irrelevant.
Do you want ppl to fail if they go there, i dont, i want all players to be able to go in and try their best to complete the mission.
That's funny, just earlier you said that the only challenge is PVP. PVE can never be challenging. How can I then argue for people failing during these missions? And no, you don't want all players to be able to go in and try their best to complete the missions. If you did, you wouldn't object to these missions being moved one bit.
And how is it a mission desogned for griefers whan the ppl playing in the zone are not greifing, there following the rules for that zone. Learn the rules and you will see what i mean.
Get a clue. I have not once stated that the people in the PVP area are griefers. You have. I have stated that these missions serves as content for griefers, and that real PVPers will be called griefers because of it. It's content for griefers in the aspect that they can completely ruin the progress of another player over and over again.
But we are not talking about that right now, we are talking about actual griefers. The question was:Are these missions meant to supply content for actual griefers? I mean, true PVPers would care less if thesewanna be mastersleft the area.
But again you are stuck saying that this mission if for a griefer frag fest when its not.
It's not? Then why can:
A) People kill other people doing these missions, and by doing so ruin their progress?
B) Camp the Corvettes for potential masters to kill
C) People come back to Kessel without problem if they are actually killed by someone doing the mission, while A is still in effect?
When ppl go into the area they will fighting the enemy like they always have, they will come across the enemy and try to kill them like in the pve area, and will or will not complete the mission like in the pve area. plain and simple, no difference from any other mission except that higher skills will be used to get the mission done.
Not in one bit does this justify the missions. Not in one single respect do thís work better than a pure PVE mission. Period.
So get the word griefer out of your mind and look at what is in front of you.
Don't make me laugh, you are the one who mentions it contantly.
Then enlighten me on what you mean by, "Is it maybe supposed to create easy targets for master pilots in Kessel?" is sounds like your say asking (in a long winded way) that by moving the mission out of the pvp area is taking the easy targets out of the way. I answered with my responce on how i inturperted you question, be more spacific next time.
Since when does "easy targets" mean that whoever attacks them is a griefer? That is your definition, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth, they taste yucky.
You dont use radar much do you, a red dot is a red dot, and if it comes near me i react, dont you? The tools are there for you to use. the enemy is an enemy no matter what. They show up on my radar, i react. there is no difference if its a npc or a pvp player.
Since when does the radar show:
A) The heading of a target?
B) The actual distance to the target?
When you are busy fighting with a number of NPCs, you can't scan your target at all times. If you can, well, you are quite superhuman.
And how can you be stating that there is no difference between PVP and PVE? Why are you even arguing? Seems to me like you wouldn't care if the mission was moved or not.
Who says ppl will win all the time, this is a game, you play and die occasionaly you clone and go back to try again, its the same for the pvp area as it is for the pve area. No difference.
Yes, this is a game. And as a game, it needs to target the biggest audience. Currently, it is not, and you seem to not be able to comprehend this.
Then what do ou call it when a person desides they dont want to do the mission, think hard. The persons decision not to go is there fault, not the devs. And its not garbage. Im glad this game has given us choices, you dont get choices whan playing many other games, but we have choices here. and if a person desides not to do something its there choice, plain and simple.
But it's not a choice, it's actually quite that simple. For you, it might be a choice, but for someone else it is not. You are completely stuck at seeing this from your own, rather closed, point of view.
I answered your questions by your request. its not my fault you dont like the answers.
Of course I don't like the answers, they were hardly even thought through. Most were just closed minded garbage, sad to say.
But your accusations that pvp players in the pvp zone will be there to grief non pvp ppl is the bigest accusation in this thread
Not once have I stated that people in the PVP zone will be there to grief non PVP people. That is your own fabrication. I have stated that:
A) People in the PVP zone will be percieved as griefers, and that is really all that is needed to change these missions.
B) The only people who can be upset by a change in these missions must be the ones looking forward to seeing these easy targets. This statement does not include everyone in the PVP zone, that was your own fabrication. That was your own way of twisting my words to fit your purpose.
C) True PVPers could care less if this mission set was moved, they would much rather like real opposition
D) There will be some actual griefers having fun during these missions.
, and i dont need to put words in you mouth you doing a good job of trying to put your words in mine, and for a person that says there not here to argue, you are doind a good job of trying to belittle me with claims of me having a big ego.
I AM here to argue. You were the one who said that you were not. Sheesh. I'm arguing right now, where did I state something else than that? And I didn't state that you had a big ego, I did state that your viewpoints are too ego centric. There is a big difference.
Again you are getting to emotional and are not focusing on the subject.
I'm getting emotional because I'm damn sick and tired of arguing with people who are arguing for nothing at all.
You have no clue, since you refuse to see things from my point of view.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Did the devs give a full reason why jedi are the way there are
How would I know? I couldn't evencare less about Jedi.
, they gave us an answer that today many will not accept, the deva mad lots of changes to some professions and gave an answer, and many ppl chose not to accept, the dave made alot of other changes in the game with out telling us why, and they have the right not to say a darn thing, and ppl will not accept this, and here you refuse to see the whole picture of what is going on, and guess what, you going to have to make the choice of accepting what you have heard from the devs so far or not.
So basically, you think that the developers have a God given right to basically run us overwith any changes they want? Don't make me laugh again. The developers can't make changes to the game that the majority won't like, since they will loose business on that.
Again, Jedi is a part of this game as is alot of things in the game, and if you look closely you will find what the devs did to JTL is what the over all game will become. Did you ever think of that?
Aha! You said it youself: Jedi is a PART of this game. However Pilot is not a PART of JTL, pilot IS JTL. Did you ever think of that?
Ah, so we can fully expect the ground game to become what JTL has? Ok, no more non-GCW factions? No more TEFs? Stormtroopers running around covert? Looted items will be better than crafted ones? Progressing through professions will be done through quests? Professions won't take any skill points? Combat will become FPS style combat?
LOL.
No, you say its a griefers dream, i would like to see proff that griefers will be there to stop ppl. How is it griefing if the area that the mission is in is made for ppl to shoot each other. There is no griefing, get your facts straight.
Naquiel wrote:
Dont get away from your own question. I want evidence from you that proves that every pvpv player in a pvp zone is a griefer. To me you justification of moving the missions out of a pvp area is not justafiable.
Ok, I didn't want to say this, but here it is: Are you stupid, or just playing stupid? NOT ONCE HAVE I STATED THAT EVERYONE IN THE PVP ZONE IS A GRIEFER. BY DEFINITION, THAT WOULD MEAN THAT I CALLED MYSELF A GRIEFER.
No you are the one bring it up, you are basing your whole theroy that the mission should be moved out of the pvp area due to possible griefing from pvp players. You not me, im just pointing out you dont have your facts straight.
No I'm damn well not, and you know it. Or did you sleep through the hundreds of lines of text you have replied to so far?
I see the whole picture
From your own point of view?
, i see your view
Oh, really? Then why do you so intently think that I call everyone a griefer. Then why do you so intently think that this is all about griefing?
i see my view
Yes, you do.
and i see the other views that most ppl dont see
Yeah, prove that, please.
, but you dont like them so you are refusing to achknowlage any of it.
Nope, sorry. I've ust heard your own ego centric view on the matter, and I'm arguing against that one.
Well if im arguing for nothing i have2sayings for you and you should remember them well:
"Never argue with a fool, some ppl might not know the difference."
"Never argue with a fool, they will only bring you down to their lvl and beat you with experiance."
I will let you deside who the fool is.
Woot! An attempt at insulting, now we're getting somewhere! /sarcasm off.
Then dont play around the word and put it out in the open insted of tying to word your statments in a sugar coated way.
I'm not. I can't help it that you tend to read things that aren't there. I can't help it that your trying to interpret text as something it is not.
Again you have based your whole argument that non pvp players going into a pvp zone will get griefed and now you say i should staop talking about it, i think you are trying to skirt the issues because you now realise you are wrong.
OMG!!! DO you even read these posts? I have not based my whole argument on that, if anything THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE CONSTANTLY DOING.
No, why would i want to only further my own goals, i gave an option that will let ppl that want to get the multiplayers ships without being a master pilot, and still gave the option for ppl that still want the master title to get it, there is no problem in what i said.
An option that states that PVE players are inferior to you, and not worthy of the master skill box.
If you are even going to disagree with my above statements, you would have to agree on the fact that these missions would work just as nicely as optional content for the post master era.
But they will wok just the same in a pvp area.
Read what I wrote again. And again. Get it? What I said here was that these missions would just work as nicely as optional content for people after they get their master skill box. Of course they would work the same in a pvp area, that was the point.
Excuce me,All i get from you is, that when a non pvp player goes to a pvp zone to finish a mission you say they are going to be griefed, and you based you whole argument around it, and now your telling me to stop talking about it. No, im am staying on the subject because this thread is about it and you spacificly are arguing about it.
And again: NAME ONE FREAKING THING THAT JUSTIFIES THESE MISSIONS.
No, since you have chose to ignor what i have to say, and now you are trying very hard to stop me from dealing with the griefing issue you brought up. You should just give up because im wavering from my point of view which is the whole picture.
Nope, I'm not ignoring what you have to say. If I did, I wouldn't argue against you. I would just ignore you, duh. And yet, freakin' again, I'm not bringing up the griefing issue, you are. Get that into your skull already. I should give up? I'm actually arguing for something, and not for the biggest nothing in the history of mankind.
Naquiel wrote:
Ok then, why not take all pvp out of the game, No more GCW, no more battle fields, wich means no battles for ppl to havethe GCW actionin, and the ppl will leave , the items they bought will not be consumed, merchents will be broke where they cant buy there material and the game will just die from inactivity.
More delusions due to the fact that you are stuck in your own viewpoints. PVP is not all the GCW is about. In fact, it's a rather small part of the GCW currently. Remove PVP entirely, and the GCW would still be around.
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
So, what you are saying here is that you are not quite capable of planning for the future, and that planning for the future is completely useless since you have said so? Don't make me laugh. There is absolutely no point to what you just said. The fact that there is just one single use for prestige points right now is absolutely irrelevant. There WILL be (and in fact there IS)a very big difference between 4-4-4-4 pilots and Master Pilots. Or did you completely forget about the added ship certifications and equipment certifications - in no way PVP items?
I do plan for the future, but im talking about what is in the game RIGHT NOW. If you want to talk about the future we can, but for no, lets talk about now.
According to my screenshot, this is the entire conversation the base manager gave me when I was about to enter Deep Space:
"Welcome to the Rebel Space Station!" (Clicked on Deep Space)
"That will cost 300000 points of Prestige"
"Do you wish to spend the points and enter?"
I would love to see a screen shot, but i want a current screen shot, and since you dont have JTL yet it would be kinda hard.(you see i can read other threads to).
Not according to my screenshot. Shall I post it for you?
sure, post it.
Don't make me laugh (again). Are you actually running out of arguments, or are you just giving up? You're actually trying to justify these missions by saying that "people have to consent while entering the area". Lol. That is completely irrelevant, that does not in one single way make these missions acceptable.
No im not running out of arguments since im not arguing, im just pointing out that you will not even look at the whole picture of what is going on.
No i didnt think the devs would only have the new pvp area as the only place to use prestige points, but you havent listed anything yet ether. But for NOW we know what the prestige points are for AT THIS TIME is the pvp area.
At this time, yes. But again, that is quite beside the freakin' point. By NOT letting people master the profession you are stopping them from taking part of future content. Period, end of story.
Give me one thing that is stopping a person from goig to the pvp area to do the mission, there is nothin. Its the persons choice of not going that is only stopping them, not the devs. you see choice is the word here, you can chose to go or not, is all up to the person.
Lets look at what the devs have put in the game as end game goals. One is Jedi. every one wants one.
False, that's quite untrue. There are plenty of people who have absolutely no interest in playing as a Jedi. Not everyone wants a glorified flashlight, don't generalize. It's not healthy.
well looking at what i said, your right NOT Everyone wants one, Just alot of ppl want one and the ones trying for jedi are jumping through the devs hoops to get one. But as you can see there still grinding away.
They will even play one with the fear of pvp, even if being a master jedi means being forced to 24/7 pvp. But jedi is end game for alot of ppl.
So what you are saying here is thatEVERYONE will doEVERYTHING to get a Master Jedi, even though that is not their end game? Make up your mind, please.
Ok let me clarify, if you play a game and you want to win, Do you do what ever you can to finish the game? Here in this game, many ppl have many goals they want done befor they think the game is finished. For many, jedi is there goal, formany it is becoming a master pilot, forsome even just being a master entertainer is good enough. the point is many ppl will do what they need to do to reach a goal, and the only thing stoping them is theirself.
Now comes JTL. A new goal was added that ppl want. But one of the things the devshad to do is slow enough ppl down so the content lasts, Hence making master pilot hard to get, and to get it you have to take the chance in an area where you will have to be on your toes.
Can be achieved through PVE without enraging anyone.
How about this, why not make it like another DWB but put it in space. I wonder how many ppl will really complain about it. I can think many more would hate it.
Ans as i stated many times in past posts, fighting ppl in a pvp area is really not different than fighting very tuff npc's in uber ships.
It's quite different, thank you very much.
How? Since you have played pvp, tell me what makes it different.
But the devs dont want it to be easy, Now its choice to take the devs challenge or not, but if you want the title, then you will have to just do the mission. And again being a master will mean something.
Challenge can be achieved through PVE. PVP is in this respect totally pointless.
You dont know this. How do you know that its not challenging being in a pvp area?
Lets see, how many time have the devs put things in the game that where easy to get then ppl got bored getting it. So putting the mission in a pve area where everyone and there brother can get it would mean everyone will be a master and everyone will be doing the same things and it will be getting boring all over again.
Not if it is done right, for crying out loud. Are you actually using the current flaws in the ground game to base your arguments on? Because the ground game is broken, there is no way challenge can be achieved through PVE in space? What kind of outlandish logic is that?
Well, if you look, maybe the devs did something different to make things better, did you think of that. since the ground was broken and ppl where getting bored, they would try something different, They did it with jedi and found ppl kept going, not they are trying it in JTL. You see the devs are always changing things to make it more challenging, but making a DWB in space would not fly with many.
The number one freakin' reason: It absolutely doesn't have to be in a PVP area to be challenging. PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP.
Well maybe you say it dont but the devs thing so, wile your at it why dont you ask the devs to remove pvp from jedi because you think that just fighting in a pve area is challenging enough.
Tip-toeing around the subject, are you? Don't bring up Jedi, this has nothing to do with Jedi. The subject here is that PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP. Or are you stating that this is wrong now? Are you saying that PVE can never ever be challenging? Shouldn't you go play planetside then? Seems a lot like you're asking for a game without PVE content, since that's not challenging.
Im not tiptoing anything, the devs made jediforced pvp. Wile here with JTL a person has a choice to pvp or not. If you chose to do the pvp to just get the master title, then it will be done, you wount have to go back at all, but if you chose not to go, its your choice to. You see ppl are not forced.
The second freakin' reason: It absolutely wouldn't offend ANYONE if it didn't include PVP. Move the mission to Dathomir, and everyone would be happy. The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel
What do you mean "the only ppl who would not be happy by this would be the ppl actully looking forward to seeing easy targets in kessel", Areyou saying the ppl in the pvp area aregriefers?
Don't put words in my mouth, they taste funny. Why would anyone be unhappy if these missions were moved from Kessel? Logic states that the only people who would be unhappy/upset by this were looking forward to seeing easy targets. Also: Read the red text above. Did I ONCE state the word "griefers"? Did I ONCE mention "all the ppl in the pvp area"? No, I did not. So don't put words in my mouth, they taste funny.
Then tell me why you said, "The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel." Sounds like your saying that the ppl that would be sad are the griefers. So instead of wording the sentence to sound different. why dont you acctuly say what the easy target is and who is doing the targeting. I know what you where saying and you where saying that the only ppl that would be sad would be the griefers not having something to shoot at, but again you still dont know that the ppl that play in the pvp area are a griefer. So dont sugar coat the subject and just say what you really mean.
I dont think they would be sad since they mostly are not griefers, they are playing in an area where they are playing to defeat there enemy.
And that's what I'm saying too, which you would have known if you had actually bothered to read my text. I said that the only people who can possibly be unhappy about the missions being moves must be people who were looking forward to finding easy targets. True PVPers would actually prefer targets who fired back, right?
Who says the non pvp person coming into the zone wont fight back? If you go to some place you dont know in the game and ether a npc' or a pvp player is shooting at you, what do you do, I would think you would have sence enough to fire back. You keep saing that all non pvp players are easy targets, well if they are then they would have a hard time just getting up to 4444 pilot. So again, dont sugar coat that non pvp players are easy targets when i know many knoe how to fight back. And the ones that cant know friends that can help.
You really got to get the notionthat any pvp player shooting at and a non pvp player is a griefer.
Again, note that I did not once mention griefers. You did. Is it by chance you who think that PVP equals griefing? Feels funny when people put words in your mouth, doesn't it?
No, you didnt say it outright, but you tip toed around it by carefully wording your sentence differently. I know what you said so i just posted it how it should be, unless you want to repost what you really ment tto say. Pleaseexplain what you ment when you said,"The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel."
Again a griefer is a person(s) spacificly and constantly(without ramdomness)attacking, harrassing, or abusing a player(s).
Again: I didn't ever mention griefing, you seem very hung up on this... I wonder what Freud would say...
I would think he would say your are playing around with your words trying look like you dont want to say what you really mean.
The third freakin' reason: It doesn't even contain PVP, all it does is to make people a PVP target. A target that can get their ENTIRE mission progress nullified by ONE hit. What is this supposed to do? What's the point of this?
Well, when you go into anybattle do you just run in with just your fishing pole and a pair of hawt pants? I really dont think so, but in this game we do have some strange ppl that do(seen last thursday on dant).
Uh? What's this? The chewbacca defense? That's one odd statement in this context.
It might be an odd statment, but im just saying that a player at 4444 is not going to be an easy target, and you should not make them out to be an easy target.
The only time a person is a target is when they make themselves one. If you deside to go to the pvp area to do the mission, what would you do to perpare? one would to make sure you had a good ship, well stocked and ready for action, and the same for the rest of the group. Two would to plan out what you and your group is going to do. Three would to practice befor going in and try to learn some piloting tricks that will surprise the enemy. and Four, go during a time when you know its mostly clear of the enemy.
And this has exactly what to do with my statement? The fact is clear as crystal: The missions does not actually include any PVP at all. They just make you a target.
No it does exactly go with your statment. You say that non ppl going into a pvp area is only going to be a target, well all im saying that ppl are smart and will not make themselves a target, and by knowing what there getting into and perparing ahead of time, they will try hard not to be a target. Do make it that a person will go into the zone as a total noob, when there not.
Look at it this way, most ppl take pvp like the bully in the school yard example. they think the big bully in the school yard is going to come up and hit them, and when there hit they cry and say its not fair and dont want to deal with it. but there is another example that ppl should be useing and im trying to tell you. Take the same school yard. the bully comes up and is going to hit someone, les say it me he is going to hit, he swings, i duck and swing around a knee him in the stomach, and the bully goes down. You see, you only be a targetif you let yourself be one, this game gives you what you need, you can have friends help you, and entering a pvp area to get a master title will be no big deal as long as you prepare yourself for the battle.
But that STILL does not justify these missions. Don't you get that, or are you just ignoring that fact? I've heard the "group up" reply, the "fight back" reply a thousand times already. Neither does anything to justify these missions.
But it does, justify these missions. Since you have been reading and noticed that i have been saying that you should "group up" and "fight back" really is a big hint to getting the mission done. Did you thing the devs wanted to have ppl group up and fight together to get a mission done and to see that they can defeat the pvp players that would be in the pvp area. Give ppl a little more credit, they can do the mission like any other mission if they work on it.
The fourth freakin' reason: It serves no purpose. No one has YET been able to say WHY this is such a good idea. All I hear is "blah, blah, Challenge". "Blah, blah, blah, grow balls". "Blah, blah, blah, PVP is the best of the best" etc.
Ask the ppl grinding exp to get to master jedi that it serves no purpose, i think you will have a different answer.
Completely a different matter, but thank you for playing. It serves no purpose that cannot be served through a PVE mission.
This does serve a purpose, the devs use past game experiance to help make changes to the game to keep ppl playing. And your still not understanding that the devs want master pilot to be a challenge and doinng something different will make ppl try harder to reach there goal. Place the mission in a pve area will mean everyone and there brother will have the master title and the title will loose its meaning. Agian you still need to look at the whole picture of what is going on.
And yes its a challenge, if you can complete what the devs put out in front of you, that you can wear that badge of pilot mastery with pride, and it will mean something.
... But since this is "player created content" the developers didn't actually put anything in front of us.
Wrong, some parts of the game are from the player community, the rest is from the devs and LA. The devs have to place things in the game a certain way frome time to time to keep ppl playing, and it just happens that this mission is one of them.
Plus im glad the devs did put the mission in the pvp area because everything else in this game really dont mean much.
Newsflash: PVP means just as little as PVE. You'd be foolish to think otherwise.
Again look at all the other professions. you get to master with ease and not much challenge, and i hope the combat update makes it challenging.
... Again, resting your arguments on flaws in the ground game. Not a very good idea.
Yes i bring up the broken ground game, but did it ever occure to you that idea ofwhat they put here in JTL might come up in the ground game in the future? You see the devs are always changing things, and some ppl like the changes and some dont, we know you dont like.
The fifth freakin' reason: SWG players have been promised that PVP will be optional. As it is now, that is not true in JTL. Hell, not even neutral pilots can get away from it.
It is optional, you can chose to play pvp or not, that simple, but wait, you have to pvp with jedi, and this was done befor JTL, and wait there is more.
No, it's not optional. But since you refuse to see the facts here, maybedue to your inability ofpreparing for the future,I'll leave it at that.
I do plan for the future, but for this debate we are talking about what is here now. But for now going into the pvp area is optional, you can go , or not to go. Plain and simple.
If you get scaned by a Storm trooper you sometimes get tefed and you might get killed by a imp pvper near by, or that you will get tef by trading with someone that is teffed.
Actually, if you get scanned by a Stormtrooper, you get turned Overt. I don't quite agree with that either, since it serves no purpose. A TEF would be sufficient.
Oops i ment overt, but ya, tef would way better.
The sixth freakin' reason: (And this ties in with reason five) It's more or less mandatory, since a 4-4-4-4 pilot might just as well not buy JTL.
Well if most of the ppl that got JTL, they should of got more info about the game and would of made a better choice on getting the game or not.
That's a rather silly notion. It's the companies that should market their own damn games, not the customers.
They do market there own games, i have read up on this game from many web sites, mags, and the most important the dev tracker from these forums. Any person has the abbility to read it. Its not the resoponsability of SOE or any company to make sure ppl read the info. SOE and anyother company has the responsability to make sure the info is there for ppl to read.
The devs did place most of this info for all to see way befor the game came out and durring testing. But if you want to be a master you will have to just do it.
No they didn't. Find one place where the developers have mentioned this for the public. In fact, they even refused to talk about this to us beta testers.
Look in the dev tracker, you will find our answers. The only thing they didnt say is why the mission is in a pvp area. Get your statment straght.
The seventh freakin' reason: It does not promote PVP. All it does is to increase the chasm between PVPers and PVEers.
oops almost missed this one. 1.You dont know if this wont promote pvp. and 2. it might bring the pvp and pve players more together.
Don't make me lau.... To late, I'm chuckling. Yeah, the logical conclusion must bethat people who have gotten their missions ruined by a PVP attack will become best friends with their attackers. Especially if they before this didn't like PVP at all. LOL. /sarcasm off.
Again you dont see the whole picture. Lets say a non pvp player wants to get the mission done to get to master pilot, that person groups up with others that want to get there mission done to, but they get the help of other ppl that have gotten there master title. they plan things out and go in. The ppl that are masters make friends with non masters. Woah, team work is good, try it. And where do you think that ppl will be friends whith there attackers, i didnt say they would be friends, i said that ppl will become friends of the same faction wich in turn will work for both pvp and non pvp players helping each other get the mission done.
The eight freakin' reason: This one issue was very frequent on the Top 5 issues threads we had during beta. In fact, by my guesstimation it was on about half of all posts in the very last issues thread. This means that fairly many of the beta testers wanted a change. This also was evident in the threadwhere 4-4-4-4 pilots and master pilots discussed these missions.
Ah, but most of the ppl that didnt like the fact that the master title mission was in a pvp area where mostly ppl that only wanted master to have the multiplayer ships to play with and as i stated a few times, that i feel that the multiplayer ships would be betterin the 4th ship certification box for those that want them and feel good that they dont have to keep climing the tree to masterand have there fun in pve.
So in your mind, people who prefer PVE are inferior? How novel of you. PVE players aren't worth the title, is that it?
Did i say they where inferior? Stop putting words im my mouth. Im just saying that most ppl going for the master title just want the multiplayer ships, and after they get the ships they really wouldnt care about anything else after that, but there is a few that would want more, by putting the multiplayer ships in the 4th ship certification box will give ppl even mosr of a choice to continue on if they want. Nothing inferior about it.
There is enough combat ships in the master box that will be agood enough prize for the ppl that will be mostly combating on pvp and pve.
Not for Privateers there's not. Oh, and not really for Rebels either, the B-wing isn't that good at all.
Now,humour meand answer me these questions:
1. Why is it so important that these missions remain in a PVP area?
Maybe its the devs way of saying that master will mean something if you get through with the mission.
Yet again: PVP means just as little as PVE. Planetside proved that rather nicely.
For me, its just one more goal in the game that has to be done, and having it in an area where it will test all my skills, then let it be. It will be challenging, and a different experience.
Good for you. Obviously, you are quite not capable of seeing things from other points of views. It seems like you are a bit too ego-centric.
Who has to much ego? its not me. Im looking from all views which you keep ignoring, you have your view which is you dont like te idea of the final mission is in an area that some ppl wound not want to go. I achknowlage that, but i came to the disscusion with my point of view and a few more views you chose to ignor, and you are arguing with me with no pertanant evidnce thay your view is the dead set view that the mission needs to be changed. Just try and break from the rut you put yourself into. leave emotion out of the picture and look at all the views from a detectives point of view and you will see that both pvp and pve players are really not that different.
Plus if it is in the pvp area than master will mean something and the few who get it can feel that it wont be like other professions in the end.
Why is it that you think that PVP actually means something? It doesn't. Not more so than PVE, in fact.
Im not saying that pvp will mean anything, Just surviving a mission in a pvp area will give meaning.
2. What justifies these missions? What is it that justifies that such a large amount of players will be turned away by these missions?
Again, ask the devs why they made jedi the way they did? And ask the ppl that are grinding there way to getting a jedi and you will have an answer.
We already know the difference between Jedi and Pilot.
Please enlightin us with what the differences are then, or better yet let me break it down for you to its basic components.
1. Pilot and jedi are a goal ppl want, ppl will grind there way up to get them.
2. The devs put things in the game to slow players down. Wow grinding missions.
3. to reach the final goal you want you have to pass a test to get your reward, in this case a jedi and a master pilot.
Well there you go, plain and simple.
For me, this game really is not challenging and i find that many ppl here in the forums always want more thing easyier, but in the end thy say there is no content because they beat everything, do you see where im getting at?
Again: You are basing your arguments on the faults of the coding of the ground game. You are actually not getting anywhere at all. You are in effect stating that PVE can never ever be challenging, since the ground game is broken. What kind of logic is that?
Yes im basing it on an old broken ground game and what we see now in JTL is what is the new way of what the devs are going for, or dod you miss that point. there placing things at certain points to make it harder for you to get to your goal so it will mean more for you in the end. Its simple logic that will let you see this.
Making things tuffer in the game will not hurt anyone.
No it won't, not unless it's done in a very simpleminded way. Good then that: Tougher !=more PVP. Tougher can be done in many ways, and PVP is not the way to go.
I did not say that tuffer= PVP, you keep saying it. I say having a mission in a pvp area is a way for a person to test there skills to finishing a mission. for example, what if the mission was in a pve area, you have ships left and right shooting at you to keep you from reaching your goal, yo fight back to clear the way....But wait, you would be doing the same in the pvp area to. So what is the difference, NONE.
It might make things better
Exactly HOW? If you are going to speculate, at the very least state how.
I said might, im not a time travler so i dont know, but its something to try.
and in the process have a better overall experiance playing the game
You yes, not the people who dislike PVP. Please try and look at this from someone elses point of view for a change. I am.
Your not, or else you would not be arguing with me on this, you are refusing to achknowledge my point of view as part of the whole picture.
knowing that not everything is handed to you an a silver plater and that you acctuly had to work at it.
Nothing in JTL is handed on a silver platter. And it wouldn't be in the ground game if things worked properly.
Then why are the devs changing the combat system? Maybe the devs are changing in the ground game to make things work for a better game and that what they have in JTL is the way there going, did you ever think of that,
3. What is it supposed to do? What's the entire purpose of these missions?
The missions all the way up to master are to perpare you for what is ahead, missions get tuffer along the way and if your good enough you get your reward. It like in any other game out there, you start off small and you keep going and going till you finish the game, well here the devs are pointing out that they want to see how good can you be, and placed the last mission in an area as a test to see if you got what it takes.
You are just ignoring these facts, are you? : Challenge != PVP, PVP != Challenge. Challenge == a lot of different things.
No you are ignoring that the challenge is to survive going through an area of the game where most will hardly ever go to, that is the challenge.
3.a. Is it supposed to promote PVP? If so, how?
By placing the mission in a pvp area is a way a final test of being a master, if you can survive the player base gauntlet, you are intitled a master pilot, and for some that do go to the pvp area might find it fun and might return. But the main thing is can you beat the devs challenge to prove yourself that you can earn the master title.
What dev created challenge? The developers has not created the challenge here, players have. And again: PVP IS NOT THE ONLY POSSIBLE WAY OF CREATING CHALLENGE. This was proven a long, long time ago. Hell, even Pac-man and Tetris proved this admirably.
Devs made the rules of the area the mission is in, the devs chose the place to put the mission in, so its the devs challenge for us to try to beat.
3.b. Is it supposed to be "challenging"? If so, why can't the challenge be a PVE challenge, and no one would get upset?
Yes it should be challenging, everything in the game should be challenging, if it wasnt, then things get boring and stagnant. Look at the ground game, its not very challenging whan most ppl can solo almost everything, and is a reason why many ppl left for the lack of content because the players blew threw the content so fast. and if you look at PVE right now you will see that you will ultimatly learn all the AI moves in the game and they again blow though the content.
BS. Complete and utter BS. People blitz through the content in the ground game because it is a broken game.You have some form of delusion that PVE can never ever be challenging, and that's rather silly. There are plenty of MMOs out there that absolutely proves that you are wrong about this.Or is it that you would prefer a game without no PVE at all?
Hello, didnt i say the devs are changing the ground game, and that JTL is the way there headed. Think hard. Look whats in front of you. Every change the devs have been doing has been to make the content at the end of some content difficult, this time they put the content in anarea some ppl dont like. To bad, learn to just get it done and move on.
But when the devs placed content that was predictible, but instead threw a mass load of uber close to undefeatable npc's(see the DWB as an example) you get alot of ppl that will just not go, because its way to tuff even though they can beat the DWB if they just worked it out.
People won't go because they don't find it fun. DWB (and in a lesser regard the Corvette) is the ultimate powergamer dungeon. It's just not for everyone. The pilot professions are, however. Or are you saying that not everyone should buy JTL? I'm sure SOE would disagree about that.
Right, ppl will not want to go if it is to hard. I would not want a DWB in space becasue the risk is to great, where just doing a one mission in a pvp area is more of a chance to get the mission done.
Just like the final mission to be a master pilot, you just have to plan it out and you will see that it will be challenging to play in an area that is not entirely predictible. And they would not get upset if most ppl would get the idea that every pvp player is NOTa griefer.
These missions will do absolutely NOTHING at all for people to get that idea. Get that into your line of thinking, already.
So your saying that all pvpplayers are griefers than? You dont want ppl to know that pvp players are not griefers and they are just following the ruleset of the area there playing in? I think letting ppl know what to expect whats in the game is better than not telling them nothing at all.
3.c. Is it supposed to be "content" for griefers?
As stated by me many times, you will never know what the true meaning of the word griefer.
It doesn't matter what the true definition of "greifer" is. What matters is that people will percieve it as griefing. And furthermore, that's quite beside the point, since the question was if these missions were designed as content for griefers.
No it does since you are going out of your way to say that all pvp players are griefers when there not. And me saying it here and explaining what ppl should expect will give them a better view of what a pvp area is acctuly like, and what they have to do to get the mission done when they get there, but you keep saying is not relivent. Do you want ppl to fail if they go there, i dont, i want all players to be able to go in and try their best to complete the mission. And how is it a mission desogned for griefers whan the ppl playing in the zone are not greifing, there following the rules for that zone. Learn the rules and you will see what i mean.
And the pvp area is is for 2 factions to battle to each other on a higher skill lvl. if you are attacked in a pvp area, the person attacking is just following the rules of the pvp area and that is he is fighting for there faction and if you are there you will be doing the same. Its all random, and if you are better skilled(as in learning all that you learned in PVE, then you will do good, but if not you have a choice to stay out or get many friends to help you.
But we are not talking about that right now, we are talking about actual griefers. The question was:Are these missions meant to supply content for actual griefers? I mean, true PVPers would care less if thesewanna be mastersleft the area.
But again you are stuck saying that this mission if for a griefer frag fest when its not. When ppl go into the area they will fighting the enemy like they always have, they will come across the enemy and try to kill them like in the pve area, and will or will not complete the mission like in the pve area. plain and simple, no difference from any other mission except that higher skills will be used to get the mission done. So get the word griefer out of your mind and look at what is in front of you.
3.d. Is it maybe supposed to create easy targets for master pilots in Kessel?
Again you are falling back to that everyone that is a pvp player is a griefer, you dont know that.
Don't put words in my mouth, they make me vomit. I have not once mentioned the word "griefer" in the above question. The question is if the mission doers are supposed to be easy targets for master pilots. You were the one who called them griefers, not me. You are the one who is seeing the world in black and white, not in shades of grey.
Then enlighten me on what you mean by, "Is it maybe supposed to create easy targets for master pilots in Kessel?" is sounds like your say asking (in a long winded way) that by moving the mission out of the pvp area is taking the easy targets out of the way. I answered with my responce on how i inturperted you question, be more spacific next time.
And if your saying that a person that dont pvp is an easy target, then i wonder what they have been doing all that time in space for learning all those pilot skills. Yor only a target if you leave yourself open(see the part above about the school yard example).
I'm starting to think that you haven't even done these missions. When you are fighting with a number of NPC ships, doging their attacks, you won't have much time over to scan for hostile players. These hostile players will be over you in a matter of seconds. There is not much you can do to protect against that.
You dont use radar much do you, a red dot is a red dot, and if it comes near me i react, dont you? The tools are there for you to use. the enemy is an enemy no matter what. They show up on my radar, i react. there is no difference if its a npc or a pvp player.
And sure, you'll reply with "bring some friends", but not even that will be enough at all times. The fact is: You WILL be a target at all times in these sectors.
Who says ppl will win all the time, this is a game, you play and die occasionaly you clone and go back to try again, its the same for the pvp area as it is for the pve area. No difference.
3.e. Is it meant to be a timesink, so that people wouldn't reach the end game so soon and ask: "Now what?"?
Any game is ment to be a time sink so you would play the game longer and and to see how far you can go. Whenppl reach the end as in getting the master title, they do reach the what now question. Some will look for new content, some will leave, Some will make there own content for others to share, or others will just not know what to do. But if you really stop and look at all MMORPG's out there you will find that they are all time sinks with a game that has a cool ui to see, and chat with ppl all over the world, with repeditive tasks in the game to keep you interested to keep playing. But for most, we just want that challenge to play a game to the end and hope we could get past all the hurtles thorwn at us.
That was just a rhetorical question, but whatever.
3.f. Is it supposed to be fun for people who like PVP? If so, how come this isn't post-master content, and the master missions obtainable by everyone?
Who says by putting the master title in a pvp area is only going to be fun for pvp players. How do you know if many non pvp players went into the area for the first timeto get the mission done instead just hung around and just killed everything in there sight, to finish getting to there goal. But the pvp player that is in the zone knows that its part of the rules of the zone and that anything can happen.
Uh, what?
"Who says by putting the master title in a pvp area is only going to be fun for pvp players" Did you actually write this? I'll check again... Yeah, you did. Of course it's only going to be fun for people who are into PVP. Sheesh.
I'm not even sure what you are trying to make with the rest of that garbage up there...
But the master title is obtainable by everyone, it just the players choice not to go to a pvp area to get it. The devs are not stopping ppl from going into the area. its a choice, if you dont want to go its your own fault, if you go just be prepared.
Oh great, it'sthe "its your own fault" retort. It grows old. It sure as hell isn't the PVE players fault that SOE has chosen to ignore them. Furthermore, stop with that "it's a choice" garbage. It's not.
Then what do ou call it when a person desides they dont want to do the mission, think hard. The persons decision not to go is there fault, not the devs. And its not garbage. Im glad this game has given us choices, you dont get choices whan playing many other games, but we have choices here. and if a person desides not to do something its there choice, plain and simple.
4. If you couldn't answer these questions, why are you then arguing?
I find your questins easy to answer, and i i havent been arguing this whole time, All i have been doing is debating with you on the subject at hand.
You haven't even tried to answer most of them, just made a few accusations, twisted some of the questions to fit your own endsand put some words in my mouth.
I answered your questions by your request. its not my fault you dont like the answers. But your accusations that pvp players in the pvp zone will be there to grief non pvp ppl is the bigest accusation in this thread, and i dont need to put words in you mouth you doing a good job of trying to put your words in mine, and for a person that says there not here to argue, you are doind a good job of trying to belittle me with claims of me having a big ego. Again you are getting to emotional and are not focusing on the subject.
5. Why do YOU find it so prudent that these missions remain?
Because its different and something new to do.
From your point of view, but we have already made clear that you are unable to see things from other points of views, so we'll leave it at that.
You have no clue, since you refuse to see things from my point of view.
...
Done yet?
I'm going to make it easy for you, the correct answer to a lot of these questions is that: It serves absolutely no purpose. It serves absolutely no purpose when it could have been done a lot smoother with a PVE sollution.
No it dont serve your purpose. The devs have a reason why they did it.
No they don't. If they had, they would have answered the threads we made in the beta forums. Oh, and don't you even try to say that "they didn't see those threads", it was mentioned quite a few times in the focus threads started by devs for missions.
Did the devs give a full reason why jedi are the way there are, they gave us an answer that today many will not accept, the deva mad lots of changes to some professions and gave an answer, and many ppl chose not to accept, the dave made alot of other changes in the game with out telling us why, and they have the right not to say a darn thing, and ppl will not accept this, and here you refuse to see the whole picture of what is going on, and guess what, you going to have to make the choice of accepting what you have heard from the devs so far or not.
And they had a reason why they made jedi the way they made them. Just do the mission and get it over then you wont have to worry about it ever again.
Jedi is acompletely unrelated issue. And once again, you are seeing this for your own point of view. It would do you good to try and be objective for once.
Again, Jedi is a part of this game as is alot of things in the game, and if you look closely you will find what the devs did to JTL is what the over all game will become. Did you ever think of that?