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Thread: Master level missions: a SOLUTION to make everyone happy.
Thunderheart wrote:
On Tuesday, we will be seeing some changes here:
Re: Master level missions: a SOLUTION to make everyone happy.
Kessel becomes a PvE zone
- Master Pilot Boxes can be attained without PvP
Message Edited by Thunderheart on 11-09-2004 05:11 PM
do the pvpers get another zone then? deep space is all fine and great... except it costs us xp to get in, how about just move the master mission out of kessel and just put it in dathomir, or endor or something?
FalinMor wrote:
KaptainKrude wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
If SOE was giving a 'new option', then Kessel would remain as is and something would differentiate between those who attained Master Pilot via Kessel. And those who did not.
Great post Rhysen, and this statement here gets right to the heart of what I'm asking....
Why is it considered a mortal sin to give PvPers ANY rewards over strict PvEs... even in something as meaningless as a title or a piece of clothing!
If it were a title or a piece of clothing, I don't know that there would be so much uproar about it.
But it's not those things. It's certifications for the best equipment in the game and the most desirable RP/coop play ships in the game. There is NO excuse to gate those from the majority of the playerbase.
Falin
I just read a post not 2 minutes ago where a guy was complaining that he can no longer wear Stormtrooper armor while covert.
Think about it... a covert Imp in full Stormtrooper gear.... 
How many days till they change it back?
This isthe future of SWG. 
Thunderheart wrote:On Tuesday, we will be seeing some changes here:
Re: Master level missions: a SOLUTION to make everyone happy.Kessel becomes a PvE zone Master Pilot Boxes can be attained without PvP Message Edited by Thunderheart on 11-09-2004 05:11 PM
It's very disapointing to see these changes coming - Kessel was a very fun place (and no i'm not master, i'm 3333). It was fun because it created the feeling of danger. I can see why you changed it - The vast majority of players in this game can't handle anything that may possibly cause them to lose. They've been pampered by underpowered mobs, and success on a silver platter. As soon as you put something in the game that may actually be dangerous, they all cry out in unison that it's not fair.
I've been taken down in Kessel several times, as well as taken out a few people - it adds to the feeling... everytime a player comes near, you feel like you are in very big trouble... there is nowhere in the game (except deep space now) where this feeling of impending doom surrounds you... i will miss it.
KaptainKrude wrote:
FalinMor wrote:
PvP is rarely something that's required because it's such a small minority of the playerbase that actually enjoys PvP. It's bad business to gate so many people out of content by requiring them to do something they don't like.
Falin
Yea, and if you want to have a special title, you go earn it as well... through PvP unless you don't find it worth it then live without it.
Are you being gated or gating yourself? When I chose not to grind professions for Jedi was I being gated or gating myself?
I gave up the reward because I didn't like the required action... something you can't seem to be able to bring yourself to do.
What you're essentially asking for is to be able to make choices within the game that never come with consequences.
Should a Master Commando feel gated because he can't Meditate like a TKM? Or should he simply accept that he chose Commando so he doesn't get Meditate? According to your way of viewing it, he should be granted enough skill points to do both because it's unfair.
PvP is a choice within the game like any other, it's no different than any other game system... or it ought to be anyway.
We're not talking about me. I like PvP, and already spend time in Kessel just for fun as I work on finishing Tier 4. 
In SWG, there are a bunch of different professions on the ground. They can all do pretty cool things, have advantages and disadvantages. You can choose one that you like and play it, and when you choose one you're choosing the advantages and disadvantages that come with it.
In space, there is ONE profession. Pilot. If you don't want to participate in PvP, you can't do all of those cool things, and you get NOTHING in return for it. If there was another profession in space that you could choose to take that offered advantages to make up for what you're missing, fine. But there's not.
Jedi is a good example. The old way of getting Jedi was BAD. They changed it (the new way is an improvement, but not near perfect IMO). Same goes for this. The current was is BAD, so they're changing it (the new way is an improvement, but not near perfect).
Falin
But doesn't the FRS gate players from acheivement in the same way?
FalinMor wrote:
Jedi is a good example. The old way of getting Jedi was BAD. They changed it (the new way is an improvement, but not near perfect IMO). Same goes for this. The current was is BAD, so they're changing it (the new way is an improvement, but not near perfect).
Falin
KaptainKrude wrote:
But doesn't the FRS gate players from acheivement in the same way?
FalinMor wrote:
Jedi is a good example. The old way of getting Jedi was BAD. They changed it (the new way is an improvement, but not near perfect IMO). Same goes for this. The current was is BAD, so they're changing it (the new way is an improvement, but not near perfect).
Falin
GotEgg wrote:
It's very disapointing to see these changes coming - Kessel was a very fun place (and no i'm not master, i'm 3333). It was fun because it created the feeling of danger. I can see why you changed it - The vast majority of players in this game can't handle anything that may possibly cause them to lose. They've been pampered by underpowered mobs, and success on a silver platter. As soon as you put something in the game that may actually be dangerous, they all cry out in unison that it's not fair.
I've been taken down in Kessel several times, as well as taken out a few people - it adds to the feeling... everytime a player comes near, you feel like you are in very big trouble... there is nowhere in the game (except deep space now) where this feeling of impending doom surrounds you... i will miss it.
THEN GO OVERT BEFORE YOU TRANSFER TO KESSEL
JTL Overt = I want to PVP
JTL Covert = I do not want to PVP
Simple, uh?
FalinMor wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
Juusman wrote:
Once again the whiners and complainers get their way. Well TH.. I hope you make this mission more difficult then.. at least force people to group up to get it done. But I guess then all the solo PvE artists would be nextin lineto step up and whine and complain...
Couldn't you at least split the mission into two master missions? One for rebels/imps that takes place in a PvP zone, and one for neutral faction players that take place in the PvE zone? That way the players have an option of not having to PvP... and can still obtain the YT 1300 and Firespray.
One the first part, I disagree. It is a great idea, but there are some additional challenges. People with hot boxes have the advantage over PvE players with "not cutting edge" computers and players are getting killed during load times and really, no one likes to get camped, regardless of playstyle. I've talked to a lot of players who are just "regular players" and having a tough time with it.
As far as splitting it into two different types of missions, I dont think that will happen, but we are considering an alternate advancement for the PvP missions. Nothing in stone yet. We are just working on accomodating players who are just trying to get their master box.
The path of least resistance is to complain on forums until the developers strip all challenge from the situation, turning it into nothing but a boring grind. My questions are: What will differentiate the Master Pilots who have completed the Kessel mission as implemented from the Grinders this change will create? JTL is supposed to be skills based. Not equipment based and definately not "I can grind mindless NPCs to reach the top rung of the ladder". That's why attaining Jedi as implementedisfairing so poorly: the ability to grind mindless NPCs to achieve Jedi status, with no significant challenge to beyond time management.
You're not giving people a new option of attaining Master Pilot. Options imply more than one route. If SOE was giving a 'new option', then Kessel would remain as is and something would differentiate between those who attained Master Pilot via Kessel. And those who did not.
My suggestion: No Firespray/Decimator/Nova Courier/YT-1300 certifications. Just add a Freelancer master level fighter. Then if people want to fly those ships at Master, they have to prove they've got the skills to use them. Seems appropriate as JTL is skill based.
That's backwards. The multiplayer ships have the most RP/coop playpotential and are the least desirable ships for PvP. Why gate the people who will use them most from getting them?
And I agree it isn't giving them a new option, it's giving them a more desirable way to do it. As I said, It would be better if there was more than one way to do it.... but this was such a poor design decision that had to be changed so quickly that there hasn't been time to address it in the best way possible. It happens.
Falin
Having done pilot/gunner duty in other 'twitch' games, they also take the most skill on the part of the pilot/gunners since neither are in enough control to line up the shots themselves.
You do remember that those ships are are more than just mobile houses to decorate, right?
Rhysen wrote:
FalinMor wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
Juusman wrote:
Once again the whiners and complainers get their way. Well TH.. I hope you make this mission more difficult then.. at least force people to group up to get it done. But I guess then all the solo PvE artists would be nextin lineto step up and whine and complain...
Couldn't you at least split the mission into two master missions? One for rebels/imps that takes place in a PvP zone, and one for neutral faction players that take place in the PvE zone? That way the players have an option of not having to PvP... and can still obtain the YT 1300 and Firespray.
One the first part, I disagree. It is a great idea, but there are some additional challenges. People with hot boxes have the advantage over PvE players with "not cutting edge" computers and players are getting killed during load times and really, no one likes to get camped, regardless of playstyle. I've talked to a lot of players who are just "regular players" and having a tough time with it.
As far as splitting it into two different types of missions, I dont think that will happen, but we are considering an alternate advancement for the PvP missions. Nothing in stone yet. We are just working on accomodating players who are just trying to get their master box.
The path of least resistance is to complain on forums until the developers strip all challenge from the situation, turning it into nothing but a boring grind. My questions are: What will differentiate the Master Pilots who have completed the Kessel mission as implemented from the Grinders this change will create? JTL is supposed to be skills based. Not equipment based and definately not "I can grind mindless NPCs to reach the top rung of the ladder". That's why attaining Jedi as implementedisfairing so poorly: the ability to grind mindless NPCs to achieve Jedi status, with no significant challenge to beyond time management.
You're not giving people a new option of attaining Master Pilot. Options imply more than one route. If SOE was giving a 'new option', then Kessel would remain as is and something would differentiate between those who attained Master Pilot via Kessel. And those who did not.
My suggestion: No Firespray/Decimator/Nova Courier/YT-1300 certifications. Just add a Freelancer master level fighter. Then if people want to fly those ships at Master, they have to prove they've got the skills to use them. Seems appropriate as JTL is skill based.
That's backwards. The multiplayer ships have the most RP/coop playpotential and are the least desirable ships for PvP. Why gate the people who will use them most from getting them?
And I agree it isn't giving them a new option, it's giving them a more desirable way to do it. As I said, It would be better if there was more than one way to do it.... but this was such a poor design decision that had to be changed so quickly that there hasn't been time to address it in the best way possible. It happens.
Falin
Having done pilot/gunner duty in other 'twitch' games, they also take the most skill on the part of the pilot/gunners since neither are in enough control to line up the shots themselves.
You do remember that those ships are are more than just mobile houses to decorate, right?
Of course. You're making the mistake of equating the desire to PvP with skill. I know TONS of extremely skilled flight simmers who have no interest in PvP at all. Granted, most PvPers are skilled pilots, but not all skilled pilots are PvPers. People who PvP need to get off this self-aggrandizing position of "we skilled, you not", because it simply isn't true. Some people just do not like to fight against other players. They'd rather for alongside them.
Do you deny that the MP ships are pretty much worthless in PvP? They're easier to kill than the single player ships cause they're slower, bigger and take almost the same number of hits to kill. They're MUCH more useful for RPing and for cooperative flying. So why make them a reward that's only attainable through PvP?
Falin
Kade_Deveron wrote:
TH,
Are there any plans for a % reduction on PvP damage for JTLS? Right now, pretty much EVERYONE is a one shot kill.
Yep 
Thunderheart wrote:
Kade_Deveron wrote:
TH,
Are there any plans for a % reduction on PvP damage for JTLS? Right now, pretty much EVERYONE is a one shot kill.
Yep
Are you guys working on another fix for the Kessel problem?