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Thread: Master level missions: a SOLUTION to make everyone happy.
Thunderheart wrote:
Juusman wrote:
Once again the whiners and complainers get their way. Well TH.. I hope you make this mission more difficult then.. at least force people to group up to get it done. But I guess then all the solo PvE artists would be nextin lineto step up and whine and complain...
Couldn't you at least split the mission into two master missions? One for rebels/imps that takes place in a PvP zone, and one for neutral faction players that take place in the PvE zone? That way the players have an option of not having to PvP... and can still obtain the YT 1300 and Firespray.
One the first part, I disagree. It is a great idea, but there are some additional challenges. People with hot boxes have the advantage over PvE players with "not cutting edge" computers and players are getting killed during load times and really, no one likes to get camped, regardless of playstyle. I've talked to a lot of players who are just "regular players" and having a tough time with it.
As far as splitting it into two different types of missions, I dont think that will happen, but we are considering an alternate advancement for the PvP missions. Nothing in stone yet. We are just working on accomodating players who are just trying to get their master box.
The path of least resistance is to complain on forums until the developers strip all challenge from the situation, turning it into nothing but a boring grind. My questions are: What will differentiate the Master Pilots who have completed the Kessel mission as implemented from the Grinders this change will create? JTL is supposed to be skills based. Not equipment based and definately not "I can grind mindless NPCs to reach the top rung of the ladder". That's why attaining Jedi as implementedisfairing so poorly: the ability to grind mindless NPCs to achieve Jedi status, with no significant challenge to beyond time management.
You're not giving people a new option of attaining Master Pilot. Options imply more than one route. If SOE was giving a 'new option', then Kessel would remain as is and something would differentiate between those who attained Master Pilot via Kessel. And those who did not.
My suggestion: No Firespray/Decimator/Nova Courier/YT-1300 certifications. Just add a Freelancer master level fighter. Then if people want to fly those ships at Master, they have to prove they've got the skills to use them. Seems appropriate as JTL is skill based.
FalinMor wrote:
Yeah, I totally agree with this. Kessel going PvE is definitely not the best solution at all, and I'll miss it.
But it's the EASIEST solution. This needed to be addressed ASAP, hopefully a better solution will come forward after they have some time.
Falin
Once you make something easy, then tough chance ever making it more difficult. PvE players will feel entitled to the Kessel zone, and if it was to be reverted back to PvP they would scream bloody murder. Its similiar to when Harvesters were only suppose to be usuable by a certain profession. But an error in the code allowed everyone to use them. Now the developers dare not revert the change to the way it was suppose to be, because players like things easy; even if its not to the betterment of the game world.
-red
Yes, the master mission should be doable without forced PvP.
Yes, the master mission should be doable with the option of PvP.
Just making Kessel a PvE zone is a nice quick fix for now, but in the long term, i'd prefer this:
(Go to Deep Space)
(Go to Kessel - PVE)
(Go to Kessel - PVP)
in the conversation menu of the respective space station. They have a separate instance for jtl starters (remember the first 4 missions?), why not have the same for the "endgame"? Is it so much more effort to have two instances, one for PvE, one for PvP. So everyone can play like they prefer?
*shrug* just a silly idea of mine...
Rhysen wrote:
If SOE was giving a 'new option', then Kessel would remain as is and something would differentiate between those who attained Master Pilot via Kessel. And those who did not.
Not to put too fine a point on this though...
This has been an issue since beta. More to the point it has been one very vocally opposed by a large portion of the playerbase.
So first off why now?
Second. Is there any particular reason anyone thought this was a good idea to go live with in the first place? I'll try and be polite about it, but basically people have quit (vocally I might add) in beta over this issue, and on live. It seems like this is the sort of thing people said would have to change yet it was sat on. Is there any system comming to make the development process more proactive about and responsive to issues like this, or is this merely a technical issue that you quite literally have to rebuild the zone to make it pve or something.
There have to be people who saw this change as necessary and making mastery in a PvP zone as a bad idea on the dev team. So can we promote them, and demote whomever thought going to a PvP zone for master was a good idea?
KaptainKrude wrote:
FalinMor wrote:
KaptainKrude wrote:
I'm "unwilling" to craft... should I have Master Armorsmith so I can make my own armor anyway?
I'm "unwilling" to go be combative... should I have Master TKA anyway so I can fight Nightsisters and get good loot?
I'm "unwilling" to entertain... should I have Master Dancer anyway so I can have attention in the cantinas too?
I'm "unwilling" to PvP... should I have the benefits of that too? (if there were any)
See how that fits right in?
I ask again... why is "PvP" the only playstyle omitted in every example?
It doesn't fit in at all. You don't have to make armor, you can buy it. If you don't want to be combative, you don't need good loot. You don't need to be a Dancer to get attention in cantinas, you just need to have a personality.
There is NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE for those who don't like PvP to get master.
It's really simple. I have no idea who some people are having such a hard time understanding it.
Falin
Yes, but...
You don't have to make armor, you can buy it. - Which means you'll have to go earn some credits.
If you don't want to be combative, you don't need good loot. - An armorsmith doesn't want Janta hides? A weaponsmith doesn't want Krayt Scales or Acklay bones? A combat medic doesn't want Spider venom?
You don't need to be a Dancer to get attention in cantinas, you just need to have a personality. - But what if "social" isn't your playstyle but you want to fit in in the cantina? (this is a weaker example I admit, but still...)
There is NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE for those who don't like PvP to get master. - Sure there is... GO PVP!
The point I'm trying to make is that all game rewards come with some required action or another... why is PvP the only action that is somehow never required? Why does "I don't like PvP" so much more important than "I don't like...ANYTHING ELSE"?
Honestly, I'm not trying to flame or incitean argument... I just fail to see one valid reason why PvP deserves to be set aside so frequently...
1. You want armor.... but you don't want to make armor.... but you don't want to make credits either. Why are you playing again?
2. Buy them.
3. If you're not social why do you care about socializing in the cantina?
4. When someone wants an alternative to doing something, doing that thing is not an alternative. It's just doing it. (uh.... I think I said what I mean...)
PvP is rarely something that's required because it's such a small minority of the playerbase that actually enjoys PvP. It's bad business to gate so many people out of content by requiring them to do something they don't like.
Falin
Rhysen wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
Juusman wrote:
Once again the whiners and complainers get their way. Well TH.. I hope you make this mission more difficult then.. at least force people to group up to get it done. But I guess then all the solo PvE artists would be nextin lineto step up and whine and complain...
Couldn't you at least split the mission into two master missions? One for rebels/imps that takes place in a PvP zone, and one for neutral faction players that take place in the PvE zone? That way the players have an option of not having to PvP... and can still obtain the YT 1300 and Firespray.
One the first part, I disagree. It is a great idea, but there are some additional challenges. People with hot boxes have the advantage over PvE players with "not cutting edge" computers and players are getting killed during load times and really, no one likes to get camped, regardless of playstyle. I've talked to a lot of players who are just "regular players" and having a tough time with it.
As far as splitting it into two different types of missions, I dont think that will happen, but we are considering an alternate advancement for the PvP missions. Nothing in stone yet. We are just working on accomodating players who are just trying to get their master box.
The path of least resistance is to complain on forums until the developers strip all challenge from the situation, turning it into nothing but a boring grind. My questions are: What will differentiate the Master Pilots who have completed the Kessel mission as implemented from the Grinders this change will create? JTL is supposed to be skills based. Not equipment based and definately not "I can grind mindless NPCs to reach the top rung of the ladder". That's why attaining Jedi as implementedisfairing so poorly: the ability to grind mindless NPCs to achieve Jedi status, with no significant challenge to beyond time management.
You're not giving people a new option of attaining Master Pilot. Options imply more than one route. If SOE was giving a 'new option', then Kessel would remain as is and something would differentiate between those who attained Master Pilot via Kessel. And those who did not.
My suggestion: No Firespray/Decimator/Nova Courier/YT-1300 certifications. Just add a Freelancer master level fighter. Then if people want to fly those ships at Master, they have to prove they've got the skills to use them. Seems appropriate as JTL is skill based.
That's backwards. The multiplayer ships have the most RP/coop playpotential and are the least desirable ships for PvP. Why gate the people who will use them most from getting them?
And I agree it isn't giving them a new option, it's giving them a more desirable way to do it. As I said, It would be better if there was more than one way to do it.... but this was such a poor design decision that had to be changed so quickly that there hasn't been time to address it in the best way possible. It happens.
Falin
KaptainKrude wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
If SOE was giving a 'new option', then Kessel would remain as is and something would differentiate between those who attained Master Pilot via Kessel. And those who did not.
Great post Rhysen, and this statement here gets right to the heart of what I'm asking....
Why is it considered a mortal sin to give PvPers ANY rewards over strict PvEs... even in something as meaningless as a title or a piece of clothing!
If it were a title or a piece of clothing, I don't know that there would be so much uproar about it.
But it's not those things. It's certifications for the best equipment in the game and the most desirable RP/coop play ships in the game. There is NO excuse to gate those from the majority of the playerbase.
Falin
Message Edited by GreenLekon on 11-09-2004 04:27 PM
FalinMor wrote:
DND_Cas wrote:
WORST SOLUTION EVER.
Thats right its in capital letters
I'm forced to completely agree with a1davida1. (FYI I completely agree with a PvE master mission. I completely disagree with a getting rid of the PvP master mission).
You already have 5 pve systems why take away a pvp one? Lots of people like PvP and lots ofpeople would rather do the PvP version of the master mission as it is now.
You already are able to instance multiple zones of the same type why not do it for the PvE master missions and leave kessel the rest of the time as a PvP zone? Let the players choose if they want to master via the PvP method or the PvE one. Give a different, but equally good reward, for each mission.
Why do you always choose the all or nothing approach to solving problem and hence alienate the proportion of the community that you once favoured with decisions? You simply switch from pissing off one section of the community to pissing off the other.
I agree that this would have been the best solution.... but they needed a stopgap solution to stop the bleeding. Hopefully a more permanent solution will show up later.
As for your last statement... when you have to piss off one group, it's generally best to piss off the smaller one.
Falin
Its yet to be proved that in JTL thePvP community is the smaller one.
And in doingthis they take away a the only non-master pure pvp zone. Absolute genius *shakes head*
TH's statement:
As far as splitting it into two different types of missions, I dont think that will happen, but we are considering an alternate advancement for the PvP missions. Nothing in stone yet. We are just working on accomodating players who are just trying to get their master box.
So when is this going to happen then? This century? After the mysterious dated CU? Maybe about the time my currently non-existant children get to use thier college fund? Perhaps whenAcrintonStanleywin the Premiership? When Bush Jnr Jnr Jnr Jnr Jnr Jnr Jnr is the President of the US? When hell freezes over? When?
And more importantly when are we going to get another non master pvp zone? Because the nice thing about Kessel was that you new if someone was flying a tie (for rebels) that they were attackable and it was a place that all comers new there would be PvP.
Oh and as Kade said fix the PvP balences pls.
/rant over (you might have noticed I'm one very pissed off Cas and I make no apologies for my tone in this).
FalinMor wrote:
PvP is rarely something that's required because it's such a small minority of the playerbase that actually enjoys PvP. It's bad business to gate so many people out of content by requiring them to do something they don't like.
Falin