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Thread: Concerning the Pro's of Forced PvP Mastership......
Please read whta you reply to. Especially the text I have marked with red. That way, you wouldn't have wasted so many minutes on typing up your reply.
Naquiel wrote:
Sorry all the master title does is give the ability to have better ship parts, more selections of ships, and the use of ships and parts. Where is the content of being a master? Is it by showing i can fly a ship that many want, or that i can be able to blast others with my top of the line ship parts. For a person that dont pvp, the master title would really usless in a part of the game where you mostly do combat.
I have said this before: Once you reach master, you will no longer gain xp. Instead, now you will be gaining prestige points that are supposed to unlock more content. The fact that the game is lacking in that respect currently has absolutely nothing to do with the point at all. That's a completely different issue.
Ithink you just want the master title so you can fly a multipassenger ship, because the only new content after getting a master title is a pvp zone to get some cool loot from said pvp zones.
Naquiel wrote:
I have been seeing this from both sides, and have posted it many times. You see i look at this logicly, where you are looking at this emotionaly. I see how it is from both sides and you only think how it effects you. I have posted examples of how you have no clue what the other side is thinking, and all you do is say that no one has come up with a plausible reason. Well i have gien many plausible reasons why master pilot is in a pvp area, but you still dont want to listen so lest go back over what we are talking about.
That's fairly amusing, especially since: I love PVP, but I do see the problem with these missions. Read that again and ask yourself how I can see this "emotionaly". There are no plausible reasons as to why these missions needs to be in a pvp area, where they will offend a huge part of the playerbase, when they could as well just have been normal PVE missions, and as such would not have offended anyone.
1.Many here aresaying that there being forced into an area of the game to get the master title.
Well No your not being forced. You have the choice to go or not. Its that simple butsomethingtells me that many ppl here still want to be a master pilot so they will still complain.
Yeah, keep seeing it as a choice. But believe me, it's not. If you do not master your profession, but stay somewhere on the fourth tier, you will have a rather useless expansion.
2. Many here are claiming they will have to fight in Unconcentual pvp fighting.
Well this is not true since you still have to agree to the fact that it is a pvp area you will be entering into, and you cant go in unless you agree to it.
Actually, if someone just flew up tothe properspace station for their professionand /comm with them, they can enter Kessel without ever knowing that it is a PVP area.
3. Many say that the enemy is going to be in the pvp area just to grief ppl that are going in to get there master title.
Well, there are people who will do this. But there is also the fact that innocent players who are just in Kessel for some PVP goodness will get called griefers. If someone hates PVP and has got to do it to finish their mission, they are going to percieve anyone who ruins their mission as a griefer. And this is how these missions will just broaden the gap between PVPers and PVEers, they will absolutely not promote PVP in the least.
4. You claim that when you get to the master pilot you will get to unlock new content.
But you didnt list off what the new content was, but we already know that its a pvp zone where ppl can go do some loot farming.
You need to do some more careful reading, this is what I said, in short: When you get the master box, you will start getting prestige points. These prestige points are supposed to unlock new content. The fact that this is not the case right now, is completely beside the point. The lack of content is another issue.
Vicotnik wrote:
Please read whta you reply to. Especially the text I have marked with red. That way, you wouldn't have wasted so many minutes on typing up your reply.
Naquiel wrote:
Sorry all the master title does is give the ability to have better ship parts, more selections of ships, and the use of ships and parts. Where is the content of being a master? Is it by showing i can fly a ship that many want, or that i can be able to blast others with my top of the line ship parts. For a person that dont pvp, the master title would really usless in a part of the game where you mostly do combat.
I have said this before: Once you reach master, you will no longer gain xp. Instead, now you will be gaining prestige points that are supposed to unlock more content. The fact that the game is lacking in that respect currently has absolutely nothing to do with the point at all. That's a completely different issue.
Ithink you just want the master title so you can fly a multipassenger ship, because the only new content after getting a master title is a pvp zone to get some cool loot from said pvp zones.
I did read what you said and it still dont list what new content there is, so far the only new content there is that you can use the new prestige points with is a pvp zone, so why dont you read what i posted.
Naquiel wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:
Please read whta you reply to. Especially the text I have marked with red. That way, you wouldn't have wasted so many minutes on typing up your reply.
Naquiel wrote:
Sorry all the master title does is give the ability to have better ship parts, more selections of ships, and the use of ships and parts. Where is the content of being a master? Is it by showing i can fly a ship that many want, or that i can be able to blast others with my top of the line ship parts. For a person that dont pvp, the master title would really usless in a part of the game where you mostly do combat.
I have said this before: Once you reach master, you will no longer gain xp. Instead, now you will be gaining prestige points that are supposed to unlock more content. The fact that the game is lacking in that respect currently has absolutely nothing to do with the point at all. That's a completely different issue.
Ithink you just want the master title so you can fly a multipassenger ship, because the only new content after getting a master title is a pvp zone to get some cool loot from said pvp zones.
I did read what you said and it still dont list what new content there is, so far the only new content there is that you can use the new prestige points with is a pvp zone, so why dont you read what i posted.
Again, you are missing the freakin' point. Read this out loud a few times:
"Prestige points are supposed to unlock new content. The fact that it doesn't actually do this right now is a completely different issue."
Naquiel wrote:
That's fairly amusing, especially since: I love PVP, but I do see the problem with these missions. Read that again and ask yourself how I can see this "emotionaly". There are no plausible reasons as to why these missions needs to be in a pvp area, where they will offend a huge part of the playerbase, when they could as well just have been normal PVE missions, and as such would not have offended anyone.
Right now you are putting alot of emotion in what you say ant it says that you dont like that you have to do something you dont like, well you have a choice to do it or not.
Read what I just wrote again. I'm not complaing about this for me, I'm complaining about this for the well being of the game. I have done this once, and will do it two times more. That is all quite beside the point, however.
Yeah, keep seeing it as a choice. But believe me, it's not. If you do not master your profession, but stay somewhere on the fourth tier, you will have a rather useless expansion.
How is it useless, you will be doing the same thing at master that you did at 4444. Ya you get to go to a new pvp area to get new loot, but again ITS A PVP AREA, did you hear that, a pvp area.
*sigh* Again: Prestige points are supposed to unlock new content, the fact that it actually doesn't do this right now is a completely different issue. Do you actually expect there to be just *ONE* single thing to spend prestige points on in the future?
Actually, if someone just flew up tothe properspace station for their professionand /comm with them, they can enter Kessel without ever knowing that it is a PVP area.
WRONG, did you read what the station port manager tells you, he/she states that you WILL be entering a pvp zone.
Don't ever remember the rebel one state that Kessel was a PVP zone.
Well, there are people who will do this. But there is also the fact that innocent players who are just in Kessel for some PVP goodness will get called griefers. If someone hates PVP and has got to do it to finish their mission, they are going to percieve anyone who ruins their mission as a griefer. And this is how these missions will just broaden the gap between PVPers and PVEers, they will absolutely not promote PVP in the least.
Ah you finnaly are listening and noticing that ppl that do pvp are not nessacerily griefers but will be called one by someone that doesnt like pvp and will take it personaly. But now put one more thing along with what you now know and see that when you go, you have to accept that the zone you go to will say that it is a pvp area and you have to agree to the danger befor being let into the area.
If you had been paying attention to these discussions, you would know that this was one of the first things I ever stated about this. The marked text above has absolutely nothing to do with the issue, however,it doesn't justify these missions in any single respect. End of story.
From this you will see that the mission is in a pvp area that you have to consent to befor going into it and you still have a chioce to go in or not.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the issue, and it doesn't justify these missions one bit. End of story.
You need to do some more careful reading, this is what I said, in short: When you get the master box, you will start getting prestige points. These prestige points are supposed to unlock new content. The fact that this is not the case right now, is completely beside the point. The lack of content is another issue.
No it is the point right now, you broke down everything down to having to get master to play with the new content which you can only get after you become a master pilot. Wich right now the new content is apvp zone for ppl to play in.I point out that right now the only new content is a pvp area, but you turn around and say its not the case. Can you make up your mind please.
OMG!!!!!!! Pay attention! Do you really expect there to be just ONE single thing to spend prestige points on? More will be added as time goes on, otherwise the entire prestige point system is a useless addition to the profession. Furthermore it's NOT the only new content, the multiperson ships are quite a large bulk of content you'll be missing out on if you stay at 4-4-4-4.
So lets list it out again:
1. you want to be a master pilot(ya the top gun best of the best)
And since when does "the best of the best" mean PVP? Why can't PVE players be "the best of the best" too? PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP. And for that matter: PVE != Challenge. Challenge != PVP.
2. to be a master pilot you have to go to a consentual pvp area to finish a mission to get to be a master pilot(woot, a time to see how good you can be even if its for one mission in an area you dont like).
And why does it have to be a PVP area for people to show how good they are? Why can't PVe players show how good they are? PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP. And for that matter: PVE != Challenge. Challenge != PVP.
3. Master pilot gives you the right to have the strongest ships and parts in the game(which will be mostly used in combat, or useing a multiplayer ship for that cool space battles we know and love from the movies or something similar)and after collecting prestige points you get to play with new content which happens to be another pvp zone.
For now it is, yes.
4. Having a master title is just like playing a pilot at any lvl, you go out and play. kill a few enemies, and go home in victory or a crushing death.
If you have ever mastered the pilot profession before, you would know that this statement is absolutely untrue. Taking up a group on a POB ship is a MUCH different experience than flying around in a fighter ship. And rest asured: This is a PURE PVE experience, they are USELESS for PVP.
So i will ask you this, Give me a reason that the master title mission should not be in a pvp zone other than its a possible greifing problem. And i would like to see your list of what you would get if you became a master pilot.
The number one freakin' reason: It absolutely doesn't have to be in a PVP area to be challenging. PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP.
The second freakin' reason: It absolutely wouldn't offend ANYONE if it didn't include PVP. Move the mission to Dathomir, and everyone would be happy. The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel
The third freakin' reason: It doesn't even contain PVP, all it does is to make people a PVP target. A target that can get their ENTIRE mission progress nullified by ONE hit. What is this supposed to do? What's the point of this?
The fourth freakin' reason: It serves no purpose. No one has YET been able to say WHY this is such a good idea. All I hear is "blah, blah, Challenge". "Blah, blah, blah, grow balls". "Blah, blah, blah, PVP is the best of the best" etc.
The fifth freakin' reason: SWG players have been promised that PVP will be optional. As it is now, that is not true in JTL. Hell, not even neutral pilots can get away from it.
The sixth freakin' reason: (And this ties in with reason five) It's more or less mandatory, since a 4-4-4-4 pilot might just as well not buy JTL.
The seventh freakin' reason: It does not promote PVP. All it does is to increase the chasm between PVPers and PVEers.
The eight freakin' reason: This one issue was very frequent on the Top 5 issues threads we had during beta. In fact, by my guesstimation it was on about half of all posts in the very last issues thread. This means that fairly many of the beta testers wanted a change. This also was evident in the threadwhere 4-4-4-4 pilots and master pilots discussed these missions.
Oh, and just to make you happy. This is what you get when you master the profession:
Access to the only real non-leveling content (leveling content would be all missions you do). This content being:
A) POB ships, the number one PVE (And do I have to write this bolder, so you will understand? PVE) experience in the entire expansion.
B) Deep Space, admittedly a PVP area.
C) FUTURE CONTENT ACCESSED BY PRESTIGE POINTS.
Now,humour meand answer me these questions:
1. Why is it so important that these missions remain in a PVP area?
2. What justifies these missions? What is it that justifies that such a large amount of players will be turned away by these missions?
3. What is it supposed to do? What's the entire purpose of these missions?
3.a. Is it supposed to promote PVP? If so, how?
3.b. Is it supposed to be "challenging"? If so, why can't the challenge be a PVE challenge, and no one would get upset?
3.c. Is it supposed to be "content" for griefers?
3.d. Is it maybe supposed to create easy targets for master pilots in Kessel?
3.e. Is it meant to be a timesink, so that people wouldn't reach the end game so soon and ask: "Now what?"?
3.f. Is it supposed to be fun for people who like PVP? If so, how come this isn't post-master content, and the master missions obtainable by everyone?
4. If you couldn't answer these questions, why are you then arguing?
5. Why do YOU find it so prudent that these missions remain?
...
Done yet?
I'm going to make it easy for you, the correct answer to a lot of these questions is that: It serves absolutely no purpose. It serves absolutely no purpose when it could have been done a lot smoother with a PVE sollution.
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
I have been seeing this from both sides, and have posted it many times. You see i look at this logicly, where you are looking at this emotionaly. I see how it is from both sides and you only think how it effects you. I have posted examples of how you have no clue what the other side is thinking, and all you do is say that no one has come up with a plausible reason. Well i have gien many plausible reasons why master pilot is in a pvp area, but you still dont want to listen so lest go back over what we are talking about.
That's fairly amusing, especially since: I love PVP, but I do see the problem with these missions. Read that again and ask yourself how I can see this "emotionaly". There are no plausible reasons as to why these missions needs to be in a pvp area, where they will offend a huge part of the playerbase, when they could as well just have been normal PVE missions, and as such would not have offended anyone.
Right now you are putting alot of emotion in what you say ant it says that you dont like that you have to do something you dont like, well you have a choice to do it or not.
1.Many here aresaying that there being forced into an area of the game to get the master title.
Well No your not being forced. You have the choice to go or not. Its that simple butsomethingtells me that many ppl here still want to be a master pilot so they will still complain.
Yeah, keep seeing it as a choice. But believe me, it's not. If you do not master your profession, but stay somewhere on the fourth tier, you will have a rather useless expansion.
How is it useless, you will be doing the same thing at master that you did at 4444. Ya you get to go to a new pvp area to get new loot, but again ITS A PVP AREA, did you hear that, a pvp area.
2. Many here are claiming they will have to fight in Unconcentual pvp fighting.
Well this is not true since you still have to agree to the fact that it is a pvp area you will be entering into, and you cant go in unless you agree to it.
Actually, if someone just flew up tothe properspace station for their professionand /comm with them, they can enter Kessel without ever knowing that it is a PVP area.
WRONG, did you read what the station port manager tells you, he/she states that you WILL be entering a pvp zone.
3. Many say that the enemy is going to be in the pvp area just to grief ppl that are going in to get there master title.
Well, there are people who will do this. But there is also the fact that innocent players who are just in Kessel for some PVP goodness will get called griefers. If someone hates PVP and has got to do it to finish their mission, they are going to percieve anyone who ruins their mission as a griefer. And this is how these missions will just broaden the gap between PVPers and PVEers, they will absolutely not promote PVP in the least.
Ah you finnaly are listening and noticing that ppl that do pvp are not nessacerily griefers but will be called one by someone that doesnt like pvp and will take it personaly. But now put one more thing along with what you now know and see that when you go, you have to accept that the zone you go to will say that it is a pvp area and you have to agree to the danger befor being let into the area.
From this you will see that the mission is in a pvp area that you have to consent to befor going into it and you still have a chioce to go in or not.
4. You claim that when you get to the master pilot you will get to unlock new content.
But you didnt list off what the new content was, but we already know that its a pvp zone where ppl can go do some loot farming.
You need to do some more careful reading, this is what I said, in short: When you get the master box, you will start getting prestige points. These prestige points are supposed to unlock new content. The fact that this is not the case right now, is completely beside the point. The lack of content is another issue.
No it is the point right now, you broke down everything down to having to get master to play with the new content which you can only get after you become a master pilot. Wich right now the new content is apvp zone for ppl to play in.I point out that right now the only new content is a pvp area, but you turn around and say its not the case. Can you make up your mind please.
So lets list it out again:
1. you want to be a master pilot(ya the top gun best of the best)
2. to be a master pilot you have to go to a consentual pvp area to finish a mission to get to be a master pilot(woot, a time to see how good you can be even if its for one mission in an area you dont like).
3. Master pilot gives you the right to have the strongest ships and parts in the game(which will be mostly used in combat, or useing a multiplayer ship for that cool space battles we know and love from the movies or something similar)and after collecting prestige points you get to play with new content which happens to be another pvp zone.
4. Having a master title is just like playing a pilot at any lvl, you go out and play. kill a few enemies, and go home in victory or a crushing death.
So i will ask you this, Give me a reason that the master title mission should not be in a pvp zone other than its a possible greifing problem. And i would like to see your list of what you would get if you became a master pilot.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 10-30-2004 12:06 AM
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:
Please read whta you reply to. Especially the text I have marked with red. That way, you wouldn't have wasted so many minutes on typing up your reply.
Naquiel wrote:
Sorry all the master title does is give the ability to have better ship parts, more selections of ships, and the use of ships and parts. Where is the content of being a master? Is it by showing i can fly a ship that many want, or that i can be able to blast others with my top of the line ship parts. For a person that dont pvp, the master title would really usless in a part of the game where you mostly do combat.
I have said this before: Once you reach master, you will no longer gain xp. Instead, now you will be gaining prestige points that are supposed to unlock more content. The fact that the game is lacking in that respect currently has absolutely nothing to do with the point at all. That's a completely different issue.
Ithink you just want the master title so you can fly a multipassenger ship, because the only new content after getting a master title is a pvp zone to get some cool loot from said pvp zones.
I did read what you said and it still dont list what new content there is, so far the only new content there is that you can use the new prestige points with is a pvp zone, so why dont you read what i posted.
Again, you are missing the freakin' point. Read this out loud a few times:
"Prestige points are supposed to unlock new content. The fact that it doesn't actually do this right now is a completely different issue."
Naquiel wrote:
I can read and i read what you said, but what im saying is that there is no other new content right now but the pvp area, and if you read the devs notes you would of seen that they said they will hold off on new content till after the combat update, so can you read what im saying.
Right now being a master will not mean anything, and that might be for awile. And you keep skirting around the fact that only a master pilot really dont mean anything excet to have the ability to have the top of the line ships(which is mostly used for combat) and the ability to use the best parts for said ships(wich will be used for combat) and the only place to really use the new master skills is in an area that is pvp. Soooo, your way of thinking about this has hit a wall.
So? It doesn't matter one bit that there isn't more content avaliable at master right now, that is completely besides the entire points. What matters is that there WILL be content avaliable in the future. You can't judge the entire worth of a master box on just current values, you need to look at the future.
OMG!!!! Are you not bothering to think at all? If master "does not mean anything at all" Why in the name of all that is possible to name are you even arguing? Seems to me like you are arguing for the BIGGEST NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MANKIND. Your own damn thinking has hit the same wall.
Here is a few facts for you:
Combat does not equal PVP, nor does it equal PVE. Combat is a part of both, so naturally better ships and parts will benefit both.
The POB ships are more PVE items than they are PVP items. By your own logic, this would mean that the master box is worth even LESS for a PVPer.
You have YET been able to mention one single thing to justify these missions, you have said NOTHING to the effect on why these missions and the skill boxes should be unattainable by people who do not wanna PVP.
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Right now you are putting alot of emotion in what you say ant it says that you dont like that you have to do something you dont like, well you have a choice to do it or not.
Read what I just wrote again. I'm not complaing about this for me, I'm complaining about this for the well being of the game. I have done this once, and will do it two times more. That is all quite beside the point, however.
How is it useless, you will be doing the same thing at master that you did at 4444. Ya you get to go to a new pvp area to get new loot, but again ITS A PVP AREA, did you hear that, a pvp area.
*sigh* Again: Prestige points are supposed to unlock new content, the fact that it actually doesn't do this right now is a completely different issue. Do you actually expect there to be just *ONE* single thing to spend prestige points on in the future?
No its not, the prestige points are used after master RIGHT NOW, for an area of the game(which is pvp)that you can only get into as a master. And did you think that maybe the devs put the mission for master pilotin a pvp area to prepare you for the new cocntent area that is currently in the game? So i say again, being at 4444 will not be any different for those that dont like pvp ATM.
WRONG, did you read what the station port manager tells you, he/she states that you WILL be entering a pvp zone.
Don't ever remember the rebel one state that Kessel was a PVP zone.
I guess you dont read what is infront of you, when you get up to the point of being a master and you head to the station to do your mission, READ what the station manager says to you.
Ah you finnaly are listening and noticing that ppl that do pvp are not nessacerily griefers but will be called one by someone that doesnt like pvp and will take it personaly. But now put one more thing along with what you now know and see that when you go, you have to accept that the zone you go to will say that it is a pvp area and you have to agree to the danger befor being let into the area.
If you had been paying attention to these discussions, you would know that this was one of the first things I ever stated about this. The marked text above has absolutely nothing to do with the issue, however,it doesn't justify these missions in any single respect. End of story.
Sorry but the blue text is part of it(you know the bigger picture your not seeing). In any part of the game where you will be involved in any hardcore pvping you have to agree to being that way, when you become overt, you have to agree to it, you enter an pvp area you have to agree to it, and as stated above to go do the master mission you have to enter a pvp area which again you have to agree that your entering a pvp area, and at that point you will have to chose to go in or not.
From this you will see that the mission is in a pvp area that you have to consent to befor going into it and you still have a chioce to go in or not.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the issue, and it doesn't justify these missions one bit. End of story.
It is part of the issue, you go to do the mission and when you go to the station to go into the zone, you have to agree to concenting to pvp, if you dont want to pvp, than that is your choice, end of story.
No it is the point right now, you broke down everything down to having to get master to play with the new content which you can only get after you become a master pilot. Wich right now the new content is apvp zone for ppl to play in.I point out that right now the only new content is a pvp area, but you turn around and say its not the case. Can you make up your mind please.
OMG!!!!!!! Pay attention! Do you really expect there to be just ONE single thing to spend prestige points on? More will be added as time goes on, otherwise the entire prestige point system is a useless addition to the profession. Furthermore it's NOT the only new content, the multiperson ships are quite a large bulk of content you'll be missing out on if you stay at 4-4-4-4.
No i didnt think the devs would only have the new pvp area as the only place to use prestige points, but you havent listed anything yet ether. But for NOW we know what the prestige points are for AT THIS TIME is the pvp area.
So lets list it out again:
1. you want to be a master pilot(ya the top gun best of the best)
And since when does "the best of the best" mean PVP? Why can't PVE players be "the best of the best" too? PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP. And for that matter: PVE != Challenge. Challenge != PVP.
Lets look at what the devs have put in the game as end game goals. One is Jedi. every one wants one. They will do everything to get one. They will even play one with the fear of pvp, even if being a master jedi means being forced to 24/7 pvp. But jedi is end game for alot of ppl. Now comes JTL. A new goal was added that ppl want. But one of the things the devshad to do is slow enough ppl down so the content lasts, Hence making master pilot hard to get, and to get it you have to take the chance in an area where you will have to be on your toes. Ans as i stated many times in past posts, fighting ppl in a pvp area is really not different than fighting very tuff npc's in uber ships. But the devs dont want it to be easy, Now its choice to take the devs challenge or not, but if you want the title, then you will have to just do the mission. And again being a master will mean something.
2. to be a master pilot you have to go to a consentual pvp area to finish a mission to get to be a master pilot(woot, a time to see how good you can be even if its for one mission in an area you dont like).
And why does it have to be a PVP area for people to show how good they are? Why can't PVe players show how good they are? PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP. And for that matter: PVE != Challenge. Challenge != PVP.
Lets see, how many time have the devs put things in the game that where easy to get then ppl got bored getting it. So putting the mission in a pve area where everyone and there brother can get it would mean everyone will be a master and everyone will be doing the same things and it will be getting boring all over again. Look at pvp on the ground game, everyone has the same uber templates everyone can master a perfession really quick and being a master really doesnt mean much and gets really boring. but in the end knowing that it was a very tuff challenge to get to master will be better in the end. And challenging.
3. Master pilot gives you the right to have the strongest ships and parts in the game(which will be mostly used in combat, or useing a multiplayer ship for that cool space battles we know and love from the movies or something similar)and after collecting prestige points you get to play with new content which happens to be another pvp zone.
For now it is, yes.
4. Having a master title is just like playing a pilot at any lvl, you go out and play. kill a few enemies, and go home in victory or a crushing death.
If you have ever mastered the pilot profession before, you would know that this statement is absolutely untrue. Taking up a group on a POB ship is a MUCH different experience than flying around in a fighter ship. And rest asured: This is a PURE PVE experience, they are USELESS for PVP.
In beta i was a master SW and pilot, i have been in all 3 multiplayer ships and have flown them and used/tested everything on them and find that there fun, but are going to be mostly used for houses in space. Combat wise they are targets and agains other ship the ppl in the turrets will have problems targeting enemys due to the fact that the enemy outside the ship travel buy so fast you cant really lock on target.
So i will ask you this, Give me a reason that the master title mission should not be in a pvp zone other than its a possible greifing problem. And i would like to see your list of what you would get if you became a master pilot.
The number one freakin' reason: It absolutely doesn't have to be in a PVP area to be challenging. PVP != Challenge. Challenge != PVP.
Well maybe you say it dont but the devs thing so, wile your at it why dont you ask the devs to remove pvp from jedi because you think that just fighting in a pve area is challenging enough.
The second freakin' reason: It absolutely wouldn't offend ANYONE if it didn't include PVP. Move the mission to Dathomir, and everyone would be happy. The only people who would NOT be happy by this would be people actually looking forward to seeing easy targets in Kessel
What do you mean "the only ppl who would not be happy by this would be the ppl actully looking forward to seeing easy targets in kessel", Areyou saying the ppl in the pvp area aregriefers? I dont think they would be sad since they mostly are not griefers, they are playing in an area where they are playing to defeat there enemy. You really got to get the notionthat any pvp player shooting at and a non pvp player is a griefer. Again a griefer is a person(s) spacificly and constantly(without ramdomness)attacking, harrassing, or abusing a player(s). In a pvp zone, the area is set up where 2 factions can meat to wage battle. PPl just fight for there faction and will attack randomly because they are just fighting for there faction, and hence fighting randomly is NOT griefing.
The third freakin' reason: It doesn't even contain PVP, all it does is to make people a PVP target. A target that can get their ENTIRE mission progress nullified by ONE hit. What is this supposed to do? What's the point of this?
Well, when you go into anybattle do you just run in with just your fishing pole and a pair of hawt pants? I really dont think so, but in this game we do have some strange ppl that do(seen last thursday on dant). The only time a person is a target is when they make themselves one. If you deside to go to the pvp area to do the mission, what would you do to perpare? one would to make sure you had a good ship, well stocked and ready for action, and the same for the rest of the group. Two would to plan out what you and your group is going to do. Three would to practice befor going in and try to learn some piloting tricks that will surprise the enemy. and Four, go during a time when you know its mostly clear of the enemy.
Look at it this way, most ppl take pvp like the bully in the school yard example. they think the big bully in the school yard is going to come up and hit them, and when there hit they cry and say its not fair and dont want to deal with it. but there is another example that ppl should be useing and im trying to tell you. Take the same school yard. the bully comes up and is going to hit someone, les say it me he is going to hit, he swings, i duck and swing around a knee him in the stomach, and the bully goes down. You see, you only be a targetif you let yourself be one, this game gives you what you need, you can have friends help you, and entering a pvp area to get a master title will be no big deal as long as you prepare yourself for the battle.
The fourth freakin' reason: It serves no purpose. No one has YET been able to say WHY this is such a good idea. All I hear is "blah, blah, Challenge". "Blah, blah, blah, grow balls". "Blah, blah, blah, PVP is the best of the best" etc.
Ask the ppl grinding exp to get to master jedi that it serves no purpose, i think you will have a different answer. And yes its a challenge, if you can complete what the devs put out in front of you, that you can wear that badge of pilot mastery with pride, and it will mean something. Plus im glad the devs did put the mission in the pvp area because everything else in this game really dont mean much. Again look at all the other professions. you get to master with ease and not much challenge, and i hope the combat update makes it challenging.
The fifth freakin' reason: SWG players have been promised that PVP will be optional. As it is now, that is not true in JTL. Hell, not even neutral pilots can get away from it.
It is optional, you can chose to play pvp or not, that simple, but wait, you have to pvp with jedi, and this was done befor JTL, and wait there is more. If you get scaned by a Storm trooper you sometimes get tefed and you might get killed by a imp pvper near by, or that you will get tef by trading with someone that is teffed. I can list off many times that you are forced into pvp one one way or another. but it is a choice to not complete the mission to be a master pilot.
The sixth freakin' reason: (And this ties in with reason five) It's more or less mandatory, since a 4-4-4-4 pilot might just as well not buy JTL.
Well if most of the ppl that got JTL, they should of got more info about the game and would of made a better choice on getting the game or not. The devs did place most of this info for all to see way befor the game came out and durring testing. But if you want to be a master you will have to just do it.
The seventh freakin' reason: It does not promote PVP. All it does is to increase the chasm between PVPers and PVEers.
oops almost missed this one. 1.You dont know if this wont promote pvp. and 2. it might bring the pvp and pve players more together.
The eight freakin' reason: This one issue was very frequent on the Top 5 issues threads we had during beta. In fact, by my guesstimation it was on about half of all posts in the very last issues thread. This means that fairly many of the beta testers wanted a change. This also was evident in the threadwhere 4-4-4-4 pilots and master pilots discussed these missions.
Ah, but most of the ppl that didnt like the fact that the master title mission was in a pvp area where mostly ppl that only wanted master to have the multiplayer ships to play with and as i stated a few times, that i feel that the multiplayer ships would be betterin the 4th ship certification box for those that want them and feel good that they dont have to keep climing the tree to masterand have there fun in pve. This is kinda like how ppl are now with getting there second character slot.They would grind and fight up to the point to unlock the second slot, but not continue on for the full jedi, the same can be said to having the multiplayer ships at 4xxx than master.There is enough combat ships in the master box that will be agood enough prize for the ppl that will be mostly combating on pvp and pve.
Oh, and just to make you happy. This is what you get when you master the profession:
Access to the only real non-leveling content (leveling content would be all missions you do). This content being:
A) POB ships, the number one PVE (And do I have to write this bolder, so you will understand? PVE) experience in the entire expansion.
Again i agree that most of the ppl that want to get the master title want the multiplayer ships to play with in PVE, and i say they should have the ships at 4xxx. But i strongly say that the final mission for master should stay where it is.
B) Deep Space, admittedly a PVP area.
As I was saying, itis a pvp area.
C) FUTURE CONTENT ACCESSED BY PRESTIGE POINTS.
You have to spend prestige points to get into the content zone, Now. not later, but now. But we will be waiting for awile since the devs said they are focusing on the combat system. So no current time for new content in space.
Now,humour meand answer me these questions:
1. Why is it so important that these missions remain in a PVP area?
Maybe its the devs way of saying that master will mean something if you get through with the mission. For me, its just one more goal in the game that has to be done, and having it in an area where it will test all my skills, then let it be. It will be challenging, and a different experience. Plus if it is in the pvp area than master will mean something and the few who get it can feel that it wont be like other professions in the end.
2. What justifies these missions? What is it that justifies that such a large amount of players will be turned away by these missions?
Again, ask the devs why they made jedi the way they did? And ask the ppl that are grinding there way to getting a jedi and you will have an answer. For me, this game really is not challenging and i find that many ppl here in the forums always want more thing easyier, but in the end thy say there is no content because they beat everything, do you see where im getting at? Making things tuffer in the game will not hurt anyone. It might make things better and in the process have a better overall experiance playing the game knowing that not everything is handed to you an a silver plater and that you acctuly had to work at it.
3. What is it supposed to do? What's the entire purpose of these missions?
The missions all the way up to master are to perpare you for what is ahead, missions get tuffer along the way and if your good enough you get your reward. It like in any other game out there, you start off small and you keep going and going till you finish the game, well here the devs are pointing out that they want to see how good can you be, and placed the last mission in an area as a test to see if you got what it takes.
3.a. Is it supposed to promote PVP? If so, how?
By placing the mission in a pvp area is a way a final test of being a master, if you can survive the player base gauntlet, you are intitled a master pilot, and for some that do go to the pvp area might find it fun and might return. But the main thing is can you beat the devs challenge to prove yourself that you can earn the master title.
3.b. Is it supposed to be "challenging"? If so, why can't the challenge be a PVE challenge, and no one would get upset?
Yes it should be challenging, everything in the game should be challenging, if it wasnt, then things get boring and stagnant. Look at the ground game, its not very challenging whan most ppl can solo almost everything, and is a reason why many ppl left for the lack of content because the players blew threw the content so fast. and if you look at PVE right now you will see that you will ultimatly learn all the AI moves in the game and they again blow though the content. But when the devs placed content that was predictible, but instead threw a mass load of uber close to undefeatable npc's(see the DWB as an example) you get alot of ppl that will just not go, because its way to tuff even though they can beat the DWB if they just worked it out. Just like the final mission to be a master pilot, you just have to plan it out and you will see that it will be challenging to play in an area that is not entirely predictible. And they would not get upset if most ppl would get the idea that every pvp player is NOTa griefer.
3.c. Is it supposed to be "content" for griefers?
As stated by me many times, you will never know what the true meaning of the word griefer. And the pvp area is is for 2 factions to battle to each other on a higher skill lvl. if you are attacked in a pvp area, the person attacking is just following the rules of the pvp area and that is he is fighting for there faction and if you are there you will be doing the same. Its all random, and if you are better skilled(as in learning all that you learned in PVE, then you will do good, but if not you have a choice to stay out or get many friends to help you.
3.d. Is it maybe supposed to create easy targets for master pilots in Kessel?
Again you are falling back to that everyone that is a pvp player is a griefer, you dont know that. There is going to be master pilots from both factions flying in the area, doing what they are there for and that is to fight for there faction. And if your saying that a person that dont pvp is an easy target, then i wonder what they have been doing all that time in space for learning all those pilot skills. Yor only a target if you leave yourself open(see the part above about the school yard example).
3.e. Is it meant to be a timesink, so that people wouldn't reach the end game so soon and ask: "Now what?"?
Any game is ment to be a time sink so you would play the game longer and and to see how far you can go. Whenppl reach the end as in getting the master title, they do reach the what now question. Some will look for new content, some will leave, Some will make there own content for others to share, or others will just not know what to do. But if you really stop and look at all MMORPG's out there you will find that they are all time sinks with a game that has a cool ui to see, and chat with ppl all over the world, with repeditive tasks in the game to keep you interested to keep playing. But for most, we just want that challenge to play a game to the end and hope we could get past all the hurtles thorwn at us.
3.f. Is it supposed to be fun for people who like PVP? If so, how come this isn't post-master content, and the master missions obtainable by everyone?
Who says by putting the master title in a pvp area is only going to be fun for pvp players. How do you know if many non pvp players went into the area for the first timeto get the mission done instead just hung around and just killed everything in there sight, to finish getting to there goal. But the pvp player that is in the zone knows that its part of the rules of the zone and that anything can happen.
But the master title is obtainable by everyone, it just the players choice not to go to a pvp area to get it. The devs are not stopping ppl from going into the area. its a choice, if you dont want to go its your own fault, if you go just be prepared.
4. If you couldn't answer these questions, why are you then arguing?
I find your questins easy to answer, and i i havent been arguing this whole time, All i have been doing is debating with you on the subject at hand.
5. Why do YOU find it so prudent that these missions remain?
Because its different and something new to do.
...
Done yet?
I'm going to make it easy for you, the correct answer to a lot of these questions is that: It serves absolutely no purpose. It serves absolutely no purpose when it could have been done a lot smoother with a PVE sollution.
No it dont serve your purpose. The devs have a reason why they did it. And they had a reason why they made jedi the way they made them. Just do the mission and get it over then you wont have to worry about it ever again.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 10-31-2004 02:15 AM
Vicotnik wrote:
So? It doesn't matter one bit that there isn't more content avaliable at master right now, that is completely besides the entire points. What matters is that there WILL be content avaliable in the future. You can't judge the entire worth of a master box on just current values, you need to look at the future.
OMG!!!! Are you not bothering to think at all? If master "does not mean anything at all" Why in the name of all that is possible to name are you even arguing?
1. Im not arguing, im justdebating that you dont have pertanant evidence that says that the devs should move the master mission out of the pvp area.
And 2. saing that ppl will get greifed is not a viable answer since you dont know if ppl will get griefed at all.
Seems to me like you are arguing for the BIGGEST NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MANKIND. Your own damn thinking has hit the same wall.
No i havent hit a wall, i just keep showing you more and more of what you are missing from the big picture.
Here is a few facts for you:
Combat does not equal PVP, nor does it equal PVE. Combat is a part of both, so naturally better ships and parts will benefit both.
Ah, didnt i say that there is no difference between pvp and pve. In combat npc's and players can shoot and kill on equel terms, its just we on the reciving end of combat chose who we like to fight. We are selective on what to fight, but when it comes time where that control is out of there hands, the word grief comes up. Just stop using the word grief since you still dont know what it means.
The POB ships are more PVE items than they are PVP items. By your own logic, this would mean that the master box is worth even LESS for a PVPer.
No, i said in past posts that if the mutliplayer ships are moved to the 4xxx box than the ppl that dont want to do combat will have there ships to play in pve, and the master combat ships in the masterbox can stay for the ones that tend to do massive combat in pve or pvp. This will show that ppl really just want the multiplayer ships more than the master title.
You have YET been able to mention one single thing to justify these missions, you have said NOTHING to the effect on why these missions and the skill boxes should be unattainable by people who do not wanna PVP.
You have YET to mention a single thing other than that placing the mission in a pvp area is just a griefing issue. You dont know if the ppl in the pvp area are just there to grief, and each time you keep posting it i have to wonder if you are a pvp player like ou say you are, because you know what i say is true, and that not all players in a pvp area are griefers
Message Edited by Naquiel on 10-31-2004 02:31 AM
Naquiel wrote:
OMG!!!! Are you not bothering to think at all? If master "does not mean anything at all" Why in the name of all that is possible to name are you even arguing?
1. Im not arguing, im justdebating that you dont have pertanant evidence that says that the devs should move the master mission out of the pvp area.
Uh, yeah. Debating is pretty much a form of argumentation.
I'm lacking evidence? Need I remind you that NOT A SINGLE PERSON HAS YET BEEN ABLE TO JUSTIFY THESE MISSIONS AT ALL.
And 2. saing that ppl will get greifed is not a viable answer since you dont know if ppl will get griefed at all.
Om my freakin' God. You are the one person here who is constantly bringing up this issue about griefing. Get over it. Now.
Seems to me like you are arguing for the BIGGEST NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MANKIND. Your own damn thinking has hit the same wall.
No i havent hit a wall, i just keep showing you more and more of what you are missing from the big picture.
You are arguing for nothing. That's pretty much hitting the wall as much as anything. I'm not missing anything from the big picture, if anything, you are because of your absolute ineptness in seeing things from other viewpoints than your own.
Here is a few facts for you:
Combat does not equal PVP, nor does it equal PVE. Combat is a part of both, so naturally better ships and parts will benefit both.
Ah, didnt i say that there is no difference between pvp and pve. In combat npc's and players can shoot and kill on equel terms, its just we on the reciving end of combat chose who we like to fight. We are selective on what to fight, but when it comes time where that control is out of there hands, the word grief comes up. Just stop using the word grief since you still dont know what it means.
Ok, seriously. You must have some kind of unhealthy fixation to the word "grief". You are constantly bringing it up. If anything, you are the one who needs to stop using it so carelessly.
The POB ships are more PVE items than they are PVP items. By your own logic, this would mean that the master box is worth even LESS for a PVPer.
No, i said in past posts that if the mutliplayer ships are moved to the 4xxx box than the ppl that dont want to do combat will have there ships to play in pve, and the master combat ships in the masterbox can stay for the ones that tend to do massive combat in pve or pvp. This will show that ppl really just want the multiplayer ships more than the master title.
So really, the only thing you want here is to further your own goals? What you want to set in stone is that PVE players are worth less than PVP players. They are just inferior to you, and not worthy of the master title?
If you are even going to disagree with my above statements, you would have to agree on the fact that these missions would work just as nicely as optional content for the post master era.
You have YET been able to mention one single thing to justify these missions, you have said NOTHING to the effect on why these missions and the skill boxes should be unattainable by people who do not wanna PVP.
You have YET to mention a single thing other than that placing the mission in a pvp area is just a griefing issue.
Ok, read this out loud a few times: I, Vicotnik, am not bringing up the grief issue all the time. YOU are. I've stated numerous times what's wrong with these missions. And I'm sure not going to do that again. If you feel like reading those reasons, scroll up a few pages and read.
You dont know if the ppl in the pvp area are just there to grief, and each time you keep posting it i have to wonder if you are a pvp player like ou say you are, because you know what i say is true, and that not all players in a pvp area are griefers
OMG, get over the damn griefing issue already, if you had payed any attention at all, you would have known that the griefing issue is just a part of the flaw in these missions.
And again: NAME ONE FREAKING THING THAT JUSTIFIES THESE MISSIONS.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 10-31-2004 02:31 AM
Naquiel wrote:
So i will ask you this, Give me a reason that the master title mission should not be in a pvp zone other than its a possible greifing problem.
This statement right here is reason enough. Anything that permits griefing should be fixed or removed from the game. Griefing is bad for everyone. It can happen and will happen if this PVE mission remains in the PVP zone, especially a couple months down the road when there are a lot of master pilots. And innocent PVPers will be accused of being griefers because of this.
Many of the people I see supporting the current setup say that to be a true master pilot, you should have to fight actual players. Considering this is a game where all PVP is supposed to be consentual, I disagree with that statement. Setting that aside for the moment, this mission is a PVE mission in a PVP zone. During the mission where you have to kill 30 NPC ships, even if you defeat every player that tries to attack you, you STILL have to beat 30 NPC ships. And chances are, that won't happen because you are very likely to at least take damage from the engagement with other players. You could very well use all missiles and countermeasures that you may need for the NPC ships.
There is no incentive to do anything but try and run away from the player who is attacking you. But the player isn't an NPC that will give up the chase so easily. Yes, I've heard all the "bring a group" statements too, but there will be groups of players looking to attack you as well. So your group, which I understand will most likely be needed to complete the PVE part, gets taken out by other players, leaving you again much less likely to complete the mission.
Anything that permits griefing should be fixed or removed from the game. By having a PVE mission in a PVP zone, with no points for engaging in PVP, you are giving the griefers permission to ruin the fun of other players. Players who may love to PVP but want to get to Master Pilot without PVP. Players who may be interested in trying PVP are more likely to be turned off by this mission. And PVE players, who want nothing at all to do with PVP, will certainly never try PVP.
Take the PVE mission out of the PVP zone.