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JimerLins wrote:

I think the AI changes are a problem and need correcting/tweaking, but I also think the previous way the AI worked sucked. So this is an improvement, because the enemy ships are actually flying a little more like an actual enemy instead of a big fat target.

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While I agree that the last AI also sucked, I have to disagree with the improvement part. I also have to disagree with the NPCs flying more like actual enemies now. If youactually have the engines and the speed to (somewhat) match the speed of NPC ships, they are bigger and fatter targets than ever. Even when you keep hammering them with bolts of lasers up their rear end, they still just fly straight ahead for many 100's of meters. Before this change you could never manage to get settled behind them this easily.

No, this latest change has turned the AI into two extremes:

1. Too hard for slower ships, due to the insane speed the NPCs fly at.

2. Too easy for faster ships, due to the fact that the NPCs fly in straight lines for too long.

Either way, it pretty much made combat slightly boring on both ends. Dogfights should be exiting, I kept nodding off last night when I did my tier 4 duty mission.

Message Edited by Vicotnik on 11-17-2004 09:27 PM

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Trystim wrote:

"being a Master Pilot in a twitch-based game"

Ok, let's get something straight...According to the box, JTL is NOT a seperate game from Star Wars Galaxies.

Regardless of how bad you want it to be it's own little world, it's not. And with it being an 'expansion' of the already

existing Star Wars Game, you cannot treat it as it's 'own' Flight Sim first person shooter style game. You have to treat

it like the expansion that it is. I bought the expansion, I have put my time, effort, blood sweat, and tears into it. Don't

tell me it's all about 'chops'. Half of the battle here is heart and the will to succeed. However, the reason why I don't

agree with the speed change is because it unbalances the enjoyment of the space HALF of Star Wars Galaxies.

I've done quite well considering I'm new to the 'twitch' portion of the game. So really, I don't think it's proper for the

devs to make it even harder for me just because you feel that it's not as hard as it 'should' be. The problem I see

with the FPS style player base is they automatically vote themselves as the judges of what's challenging and

rewarding or what's supposed to be hard or rare. You did this earlier in your post with the whole bus driver bit...

The second part of this same problem is that most of the time, they're wrong on all accounts. It doesn't take a

NASCAR driver level driver to operate a bus. Nor would it take an 'ACE' pilot to operate a 'frieghter'. Tell me,

when was the last time you saw a trucking company that required it's drivers to be skilled in NASCAR racing or

have extensive background in vehicle operation (much like an ace would require). If you really think about it.

The multiplayer ships really appeal to the roleplaying community because they could be used as 'props' for

roleplaying. The thrill of the dog fight and pvp appeal to more of the FPS community, these two things shouldn't

be mixed and matched. This makes both types of players unhappy. Example - the kessel mission. The PVE roleplayers

weren't happy with the master mission being in a pvp-enabled area, the pvper's weren't happy about having that area

switched to pve. The same can be said with this speed change, one half of the community enjoys the change, while

the other half of the community opposes it. There has to be a balance.

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I haven't said that the speed changes weren't a problem. You're the one assuming that I did. I'm taking exception to your apparent position that everything should be available to everyone without any real effort. You can either continue ranting or you can contribute by pointing out the problems you have with this in a positive manner. I don't like the speed changes either, but you don't see me calling for making the AI weaker so I can get a YT1300 more quickly. If you want it, get it. If you don't, then don't. But stop taking it out on me because you're frustrated. I'm not wrong just because you're angry at me, and I'm not wrong just because you disagree with me.

Any analogy can be stretched too far. If you want to continue getting ridiculous, I'll point out that if buses had blasters, there'd be a hell of a licensing requirement to drive one. And the requirement is pretty stringent right now, simply because a bus driver has other people's lives in their hands. But that's beside the point- as I said, analogies are only good so far, and anyone can attempt to counter one by stretching it beyond its original intent, which you just did. My point still stands, you either have the chops, can work on getting the chops, or won't ever have the chops.

Maybe you'll have to wait until changes are made again in the AI- but those changes aren't going to happen just because you're throwing tantrums. Being polite, constructive, and talking about these problems in a mature fashion might help. As it is, all the posts like yours do is make sure the devs stop reading the thread because it's turned into a flamefest. You do more harm to your cause by ranting than by being reasonable.

But since you said you uninstalled the game because of these changes, you're not only a quitter, you're irrelevant to the discussion- it's all moot, because you've left the game!

The rest of us who do still play and are still affected by these problems will continue to dialogue about them, and hopefully get some positive changes made that make the game more fun for everyone, while not turning it into a situation where, like on the ground game, you can create an "I Win" macro and get whatever you want.

So, since you've uninstalled and I assume cancelled your account the developers will pay absolutely no attention to your tirades, because you're not being constructive, you're simply ranting. And there's plenty for them to do without listening to yet another tirade from someone displeased with the latest changes.

Anyway, see you. Sorry to see you go, but if you're going, then just get it over with.

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JimerLins wrote:

Anyway, see you. Sorry to see you go, but if you're going, then just get it over with.

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JimerLins wrote:

In simple terms of the AI, I tend to think that the changes are both good and bad. I don't like the "joustathon" much. But I didn't like the merry-go-round either.

Here's the problem, and I'm not sure what the resolution is, but at least we should clearly define the parameters of the problem first. The AI isn't good enough to compete with players (and it may not be possible for it to do so), so the NPC ships compensate by having amazing armor,shields and engines, allowing the ships to outperform the PC ships, and (in theory) allowing the player to outthink the NPC ships by flying better.

Here's what I think is needed:

More variation in the NPC flying style. Give them some individualized "quirks", maybe randomly selected. In chess AI, for example, you can define affinity for woodpushing, pawngrabbing, positional, or material. Come up with some affinities for piloting styles, such as jouster, turn-and-burn, agile, missile freak, trigger-happy, precisicion shooter, formation flyer, wingman, defender, attacker, and so on. Randomly assign these variables to NPC pilots and let them drive the way they fly. That alone could make a huge difference, especially in situations where you have multiple NPC ships; not knowing what the guy coming around will do next is something that would make things quite fun.

Make the NPCs "smarter" and their ships less uber. The majority of players, I think, would prefer to fight an evenly balanced opponent rather than alwaysplaying the fly to the horse, just trying to stay alive long enough to sting the horse to death.

Give NPCs varying levels of accuracy. One guy might be a dead-on shot, while another might rely on low-powered, low-damage blasters that his capacitor can spew out all day like a firehose.

Vary NPC equipment more- right now, each ship is a clone of the others. Making them have different guns, missiles and engines would be interesting indeed.

These are just a few thoughts. I'm sure others can add to these.

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First, these AI changes were not well received on test center, but I think got drowned out by other, more pressing problems with this publish.

I like this suggestion, as well as the statement someone else made regarding NPC ships living within the same constraints as PC ships. I think we can take it one step further and say that the NPC AI should have a set of manuevers they can rely on when they are attacked. For example, if they are attacked from the front, they should try and get on the tail of the player, and if they are attacked from behind, they should try and use a defensive manuever (immelmen, yo-yo, etc) to break the attacker. The AI should respond to its shields and armor being depleted by trying to disengage.

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Trystim wrote:

"He's not going anywhere. He's been "threatening" that for months now. /eyeroll"

Months? Sir, would you please post factual information in which you base this claim.

I got angry over these speed changes and posted once concerning installing the

game. Being at 4433 and almost reaching the end goal, You're darn right I was angry

at the changes. You sir, are being a troll. Leave me be. In response to another post,

I don't agree with the master cert for the YT, however, that isn't the issue here.

Nor do I believe such things should be handed to anyone (Looks like you're assuming

just as much as me) If analogies can be so exaggerated then why use one in the first

place. Look, the real issue is the speed increase. In my opinion it unbalances my

enjoyment of the game. My opinion isn't immature, it's how I percieve these new

changes. Yes, at first I was angry and frustrated much like Mr. Troll here was

when the kessel sector was changed. However I got over and I'm now posting here

lobbying for a reversion or a better alternative so I can get back to flying and get off these

darn forums. Boslo > Your stance here doesn't really address the same problems that

I might see because you are already a master pilot and you got that before this speed

change. You have not experienced the speed changed as a lower level pilot and therefore

it would be really hard for any lower level pilot to understand where you are coming from

and vice versa. So please spare me the elitest rhetoric and help us all convince the devs

to implement an a.i. that is enjoyable and fun for both sides of the spectrum

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As I said elsewhere, I'm NOT a Master Pilot (I wish I had that kind of time on my hands). I'm 1222. Just thought I'd clear that up for the second time before someone else accused me of "elitist rhetoric".

Message Edited by Trystim on 11-17-2004 12:54 PM

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Trystim wrote:

Jimerlins > please read this again

"Boslo > Your stance here doesn't really address the same problems that

I might see because you are already a master pilot and you got that before this speed"

Notice that I placed a > to show that I was addressing Boslo not Jimerlins.

Man, are are not going to get anything done here..All we are doing now is

jousting on the forums..Don't we get enough of that in space?

Message Edited by Trystim on 11-17-2004 12:54 PM

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