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Thread: Concerning the Pro's of Forced PvP Mastership......
Vicotnik wrote:
Reiella wrote:
So the problem isn't with 'finally' getting multiplayer ships after a pvp event, it's with getting multiplayer ships that are combat-effective?
Seems sorta similar to Faction Bases requiring Faction Points to purchase to me, but I'm odd like that. And while yes, there are ways to get FP without opening yourself up to PVP they either take a horrendous amount of time (Delivery Missions), involve the help of another (Delegate), or a class feature (Smuggler). Just two obtains really removed (the insanely long Delivery Option, and the class feature option), since you can always ask someone else to help escort you while you do the mission.There is a huge difference here: Faction bases ARE PVP items, combat capable multipassenger ships are not. In fact, I would go as far to say that MP-ships are PVE objects, as they are fairly useless in PVP. (Three fighterpilots will do much, much better in PVP than 1 pilot and two gunners in a MP ship).
But, if that is the case, then the Veteran Award should be sufficent, neh? That was the point I was trying to get at.
I could really care less if the Master box is unobtainable unless you're PvP myself, but I'm also a fruitbat who doesn't believe you're worthless if you're not master in a given profession. But I see you have an inherit difference of opinion with me on that issue, so *shrug*. It isn't even as if Multipassenger ships are gated from you if you lack Master certs, you can always get the SoroSuub, just takes time (and quite possibly alot more time than just getting over it and doing the Mission, but that's neither here nor there).
So again, I wonder what is the problem?
Lack of access to Multipassenger ships, lack of access to specific ships, or lack of certain skill boxes.
The first, seems to be a false issue to me, but I can possibly sympathize with the belief that you shouldn't have to 'bore' through the game for 6 monthes before you can get access to all the features, but then I stare at the monotony that is Force Sensitivity and/or Jedi and I sigh. The second feels the same as folks not being able to wear Stormtrooper armor without being declared, but again, that's just me, same issue, content being gated by participation in PvP. And the third, well, I'm sorry, it's just a flat-out difference of opinion, but I'd contend that it's fairly similiar to forcing players to bore a hole in their head in order to become Jedi (fear the monotony!).
If it's just the third though, dismiss my post as a simple difference of opinion on the matter.
My suggestion is that you go ahead and go to theconsentual pvp area to fight imps to get your master title. Gather a mass load of ppl to help you and just do it, you will find that fighting in there will just be like fighting npc's in a big battle area.
Slarus wrote:
Well then you loose, if you dont like the way the devs make the game then move onif you and friends cant overcome a simple problem of going into a pvp zone to do one mission to become a master than that is your fault. The devs are making a game that is to be challenging and if you want something in the game bad enough you will have to work at it even if its doing something you dont like. Now if the game was dumbed down so that you can complete everything in the game then the game will be boring.
Ok so it is our fault the game is published and advertised as consentual PvP? We the players did that? Do you even know what day of the week it is? This is about them changing the game not about a challenge, can you get that into you that cemet block of a head please.
Last time i looked there was nothing on the box that said anything about pvp. You dont find this info till your ether in the game read the manual arfter you open the game box or in the forums.
But there is 2 things i get from this thread.
1. Ppl are to set in there ways and will refuse to see what is in front of them.
If by that you mean you buy a game that says PvP is consentual and it's not and it makes you unhappy then sure we are set in our ways.
Sorry, you know what the game is like and its your responsability to get as much info on the game befor you buy it.If you dont like certain parts of the game then dont do them, that is your choice.
2. You have a choice to get the master title or not, you can get alot of ppl together and just get it over with.
Again it is not about the Master title itself, it is about being forced into PvP in a consentual PvP game. You keep equating the choice of master as choosing PvP, it is not. The game is promoted as such that PvP is consentual by REQUIRING it for completion of a profession it is dishonest to the consumer. EVERYONE should go for Master, not everyone should have to PvP, they are seperate and most monkeys in a zoo could understand that why can't you?
But the pvp is concentual, you have to pay the 300k prestige points and conferm you want to go into the pvp secter. If you dont want to go that is your choice.
And to let you know I really dont pvp ether. I mostly stay covert the whole time im in the game and tend to pvp with guild mates from time to time. I dont take any death i get from the enemy as a grief because i chose to go to a battle ground to fight in a battle.
When i go to get my master title i will perpare my self to fight in an area like if i was going to the corvette or the DWB, i will expect to die a few times and i know im not going to get griefed because i will be in a zone with many ppl fighting. i will expect to fight the enemy just like i do when npc's attack me. I will fight back and help others fighting to finish my goal of getting my master title.
You see im a true gamer. I dont let things like pvp get in my way, i find it a challenge the devs put in front of me to try and complete.
Well im off to have more fun in the game and to make more ships and parts as a master shipwright. good luck and i hope you see that not everything in the game will be easy and some things will be so hard thet you will have to take a chance and just do it.
So no one is a true game unless they are willing to buy a product that says PvP consentual but it isn't and then accept it without question? no that's not a true gamer that is a drone. Your a conformist, you'll do what you are told to do by the people running the game, you won't question or offer up opinion, you OBEY, your an Obedient little conformer. Sorry I am a true gamer, I question my boundaries, if I see something that doesn't work I will talk about it. I don't accept things at face value, because as a gamer and designer I know that feedback is the greatest tool out there. So Naquiel we know you'll sit back and conform to whatever is put in front of you, we don't need to hear you say it's perfect *beep* yes master in your posts, take care and enjoy JTL, we will be providing feedback so that one day when it works right you can agree with us when the master changes it.
What you failing to see and its right in front of you, is that fighting NPC's is tha same as fighting others players. You have it stuck in your head that any pvp player is a griefer because you feel its unfair to get attacked outside of your control. Sorry this game is to challenge you. The devs dont want to make things easy because if everything was easy than you would get bored and leave. And as for being a gamer, what do you do when you buy a game, do you buy it and just quit if you dont like some part of the game? Do you screem and yell and want to take the game back to the store because you feel that there was a part of that game you felt unfair? Well you might, but here you are showing that you dont even want to try. The devs did make it to where you had to do something different to get what you want. Like i want to have a set of mando armor made down in the DWB, but i find the DWB way to hard and unfair, but do i say that it should be changed? No because the devs made the DWB the way it is for a reason and i find it a challenge to go for. The npc's down in the DWB Are tuffer than most ppl pvping and will attack you without notice just like a player in a pvp situation. So i dont see the difference. Thay i say you loose because you dont want to try.
Good bye
Vicotnik wrote:
Naquiel wrote:
Well then you loose, if you dont like the way the devs make the game then move onif you and friends cant overcome a simple problem of going into a pvp zone to do one mission to become a master than that is your fault.
Lovely. The rather juvenile"It's your fault!"-response. I was waiting for that one. No, it certainly is NOT our fault. It's not our damn fault that the developers have decided to do something that will hurt the game. It is most certainly not our fault that the developers ignored this issue despite countless threads and mentions of this problem in daily issues threads during beta. It's most certainly NOT our fault that not one single person has been able to justify this yet. They all tend to come up with responses like the one above.
Acctuly it is your fault for not even trying. How do you know if there will be griefers waiting in the pvp zone, how do you know that you and your friends wont go in and be the griefers to others in the pvp zone? You dont know. But i do know that playing in a consentual pvp area is just like fighting a messload of npc baddies. Go to the deathwatch bunker or the corvette and play it with friends. You will find it will be more harsh than in a pvp setting(mostly because you loose items to decay where you dont in pvp). You still fight ageanst hard enemys you still die like fighting in pvp and you just move on.
The devs are making a game that is to be challenging and if you want something in the game bad enough you will have to work at it even if its doing something you dont like. Now if the game was dumbed down so that you can complete everything in the game then the game will be boring.
I don't find PVP challenging at all. In fact players are often easier than NPCs in JTL. However, this is all beside the point as this will HURT SWG because THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO JUST DON'T LIKE PVP AT ALL. Saying that this is the way the developers made the game challenging is rather silly. It's kinda like saying that: "Well, the developers wanted the game challenging, so they made sure everyone must be master shipwright in JTL". Now this wouldn't work, because it would CHANGE the fundamental idea of SWG. Then again, these missions do the same.
Ya, but the point is that if they want a master pilot title, then they just have to gjust go do the mission and get it over. Just perpare like you would in a big npc battle and make sure your friends watch out for you. And the only reason to get a master tital is to have the last little bit if upgrades to your ship and parts. Or unless you want a multi passenger ship to play with. Wel i would say you should just ask the devs to move the ability to get the multipassenger ships to a lower skill box. then the ppl that dont want to pvp can be happy. But for master i think it should stay where it is.
But there is 2 things i get from this thread.
1. Ppl are to set in there ways and will refuse to see what is in front of them.
Yep. On both sides. Except one side tend to bring up no good arguments, and can't justify these missions.
Yep, i can see it to, but its not my side having the problems of seeing the whole picture.
2. You have a choice to get the master title or not, you can get alot of ppl together and just get it over with.
Sorry, wrong. It's not a choice. Not at all. Getting the master title is the core of the pilot professions. If you don't get it, don't expect ever to find any content at all. It's not realistic to say that it is a choice. It's somewhat like if all the dungeons and other content in the ground game would only become avaliable after you had spent all your SP to master a few professions, and after you had done a similar mission set like these master missions. Would you say that it was a choice if that were so?
Sorry all the master title does is give the ability to have better ship parts, more selections of ships, and the use of ships and parts. Where is the content of being a master? Is it by showing i can fly a ship that many want, or that i can be able to blast others with my top of the line ship parts. For a person that dont pvp, the master title would really usless in a part of the game where you mostly do combat.
And to let you know I really dont pvp ether. I mostly stay covert the whole time im in the game and tend to pvp with guild mates from time to time. I dont take any death i get from the enemy as a grief because i chose to go to a battle ground to fight in a battle.
Of course not. You can't take it as grief because you CHOSE to go into battle. In JTL there is no choice.
I think you need to read up on what you need to do to get into the pvp area. 1. you go to the space system that has the space station that your alined with and talk to the station manager, there you have to consent befor going to the pvp area. if you have the right amount of prestige points(i think around 300k) you are let in. So stap saying there is no choice when you have a choice not to go.
When i go to get my master title i will perpare my self to fight in an area like if i was going to the corvette or the DWB, i will expect to die a few times and i know im not going to get griefed because i will be in a zone with many ppl fighting. i will expect to fight the enemy just like i do when npc's attack me. I will fight back and help others fighting to finish my goal of getting my master title.
Good luck.
You see im a true gamer. I dont let things like pvp get in my way, i find it a challenge the devs put in front of me to try and complete.
If there only WAS a challenge. All I can see is a poor excuse of a mission development.
Well im off to have more fun in the game and to make more ships and parts as a master shipwright. good luck and i hope you see that not everything in the game will be easy and some things will be so hard thet you will have to take a chance and just do it.
That's not the friggin point. Sheesh.
PVP != hard.
PVP != Challenge.
PVP != fun for people who dislike it.
If JTL is not fun, people will complain. The sad thing here is that most people aren't even aware of these missions yet. Once they reach them you'll see more angry people, trust me.
They will find out and most will see that it wont be a problem.
Message Edited by NasherUK on 10-28-2004 05:19 PM
Naquiel wrote:
Acctuly it is your fault for not even trying. How do you know if there will be griefers waiting in the pvp zone, how do you know that you and your friends wont go in and be the griefers to others in the pvp zone? You dont know. But i do know that playing in a consentual pvp area is just like fighting a messload of npc baddies. Go to the deathwatch bunker or the corvette and play it with friends. You will find it will be more harsh than in a pvp setting(mostly because you loose items to decay where you dont in pvp). You still fight ageanst hard enemys you still die like fighting in pvp and you just move on.
Hey, guess what? I've done the missions once on betaalready. It wasn't at all easy to do it on beta, and it was pretty much impossible to do it without getting attacked by a player just once. The fact is that a non-PVPer would see this ONE attack as grief. And rest assured, Kessel on beta was dead compared to how it will be on the real servers.
Oh, and just a heads up: You'll face decay while PVPing in JTL, decay that affects your ship and the components.
Ya, but the point is that if they want a master pilot title, then they just have to gjust go do the mission and get it over. Just perpare like you would in a big npc battle and make sure your friends watch out for you.
Sorry, but that's not going to work for someone who isn't really in to PVP. Forcing people to do something they don't wanna do, but have to do to achieve their goals is nothing but bad. SOE already proved that once with the hologrind. Forcing people to do what they don't do even has a big capacity of destroying the verything they have to do. For example:the entertainer community is still not what it was before the hologrinding started.
And the only reason to get a master tital is to have the last little bit if upgrades to your ship and parts. Or unless you want a multi passenger ship to play with. Wel i would say you should just ask the devs to move the ability to get the multipassenger ships to a lower skill box. then the ppl that dont want to pvp can be happy. But for master i think it should stay where it is.
... Or they can move the master missions to another sector and EVERYONE will be happy. You can't very well say that you would find it gamebreaking, or even upsetting if they moved the mission.
Yep, i can see it to, but its not my side having the problems of seeing the whole picture.
Actually, it is "your side" that lacks the capability of seeing the whole picture. If you didn't, you would be able to look at this with objective eyes and not see things for your point of view. I'm still waiting for that one reason, that one justification for these missions. No one has come up with a plausible reason yet.
Sorry all the master title does is give the ability to have better ship parts, more selections of ships, and the use of ships and parts. Where is the content of being a master? Is it by showing i can fly a ship that many want, or that i can be able to blast others with my top of the line ship parts. For a person that dont pvp, the master title would really usless in a part of the game where you mostly do combat.
I have said this before: Once you reach master, you will no longer gain xp. Instead, now you will be gaining prestige points that are supposed to unlock more content. The fact that the game is lacking in that respect currently has absolutely nothing to do with the point at all. That's a completely different issue.
I think you need to read up on what you need to do to get into the pvp area. 1. you go to the space system that has the space station that your alined with and talk to the station manager, there you have to consent befor going to the pvp area. if you have the right amount of prestige points(i think around 300k) you are let in. So stap saying there is no choice when you have a choice not to go.
Wrong! You are arguing with someone who actually mastered the profession on the beta server here. Going into Kessel costs no prestige points, Deep Space does however. All this means is that people will go to Kessel to PVP instead, as this place is "free". Kessel couldn't even cost prestige points because if that were the case, we would never ever see any master pilots at all. You can't gain prestige until you have mastered your profession, you can't master your profession without going to Kessel. And no, there is not a choice to not go. You can't people expect to stop at 4-4-4-4, when there is less content there than actual smuggler content.
If JTL is not fun, people will complain. The sad thing here is that most people aren't even aware of these missions yet. Once they reach them you'll see more angry people, trust me.
They will find out and most will see that it wont be a problem.
Uh-huh. Do you actually think that most people will think that there is no problem with this, when there seemed to be a concensus among the master pilots (and 4-4-4-4 pilots) on the beta server that these missions absolutely sucked?
I sure don't.
Reiella wrote:
But, if that is the case, then the Veteran Award should be sufficent, neh? That was the point I was trying to get at.
Nah. The SoroSuub is nothing like the other multi-passenger ships at all. Trust me, I have flown them all. The SoroSuub is nothing more than a glorified partyboat, which in itself is a nice thing. However, it's not capable of the immensly cool PVE experience on the other POB ships. And take my word on this: It's a PVE ship, not a PVP ship. It's better to have three pilots in fighter ships, than one pilot and two gunners in a Nova, Decimator or Yt.
I could really care less if the Master box is unobtainable unless you're PvP myself, but I'm also a fruitbat who doesn't believe you're worthless if you're not master in a given profession. But I see you have an inherit difference of opinion with me on that issue, so *shrug*. It isn't even as if Multipassenger ships are gated from you if you lack Master certs, you can always get the SoroSuub, just takes time (and quite possibly alot more time than just getting over it and doing the Mission, but that's neither here nor there).
So again, I wonder what is the problem?
The problem is that there is a huge amount of PVE-only players on the servers. The problem is that they were told that PVP in space would be stricly optional. The problem is that the pilot professions are the core of JTL, and these players can't enjoy the core of the game fully without PVPing. The problem is also that these missions achieves nothing but broadening the chasm between PVE and PVP players. And the problem is that this entire problem could have been solved by moving the missions to another sector without hurting anyone.
TheRealXur wrote:
Dolgan wrote:
Slarus, you dont seem to grasp it at all. PvP is NOT required to play the game. They have not misguided anyone. IFYOU CHOOSETO GO FOR MASTER WHICH IS A CHOICE NOT A FRIGGIN LAW! Then you have to abide by the rules in the game i.e PVP. You bleat on about it all you want, and make irrelevant analogys all you like, but thats how the game is now. Like it or lump it. It's your choice.
p.s maybe you need to keep that dictionary. It's drivers, not driers.
Yeah, PvP is not required if you don't want to play the game, yeah.
Hell, a CD-KEY isn't required if you don't want to play.
Breathing isn't "required" if you don't want to live either.
People bought the game to play it, that means all of it, not just part of it. This argument will never end because the PvP people and the non PvP people will never get along on this issue. The entire point of these threeds are to let SOE know the non-PvP people do not enjoy this mission in the game they paid for and would like a secondary option.
It is a completely valid point and we are entitled to our opinion. Everyone comming in here fighting about it only seeks to make both sides look bad in the end. Maybe you enjoy PvP, maybe you consider it a good challenge, I do not. I bought this game because PvP was said to be consensual, and except for a few minor issues the ground game pretty much is. You can play every aspect of the game until you get bored with it and possibly choose to PvP.
Space breaks this. They played it off like the ground game dynamic still existed, it does not. You can no longer enjoy the FULL game unless you "choose" to open yourself to PvP. This is the point people are argueing and IT IS TRUE. You cannot deny the ground game allows you to do EVERYTHING as a neutral and never engage in PvP where JTL does NOT. That is a fact.
At the very minumum neutral pilots should be exempt from this mission, period. They don't have to PvP on the ground, they should NOT be forced to PvP in space. Now, factional stuff, I personally couldn't care less if as a rebel I would be open to PvP at the start of Teir 2. That would make sense and work along with the game. But the path for non pvp people would still be there.
There should be a non pvp path to keep consistant with the ground game.
This statement is wrong. This person was alot closer to making a valid point then most if not all of the other people but there are a few things you can't do without a possibility of PvP. Most notable are the faction theme parks. There are proably more but those are the obvious ones.
Other things in the game that "force" you into possible PvP situations are numerous but don't affect his argument since he specified playing as a Neutral character. Since others have said they shouldn't be "forced" into PvPing I'll list them off but it's not direct towards the person I quoted since he seems to have actually thought about what he was saying before he said it.
You can not join a faction without being "forced" into PvPing since you need a minimum of 200 faction point to join. You can't fully progress through the Jedi profession without being "forced" into PvP. If you don't consider the 200 faction points as really a big issue since it doesn't put you in harms way for very long your forgeting that EVERYONE who chose to be a rebel has the potenial of being "forced" into PvP everyday from NPC's scanning them. As mentioned the faction theme parks and 2 of the 3 different parts of the corvette "force" you into possible PvP if you want to experience them. The past monthly "events" forced you into PvP if you wanted to participate.
I'm sure there are more but these are the most obvious examples. I didn't even have to really think about it to come up with quite a few examples of where the game "forces" you into PvP to fully experience everything that'spossible. This game doesn't have alot of content sojust those examples make up a significant percentage of total content in the game. I'm not sure what all these people have been doing to have missed so many examples since day one because they are talking like this is something new and not done before.
People need to remember that this is a "Star Wars" game. If you think about it you'll see that the dev's really can't make "everything" in the game without "forcing" you into a PvP situation at some point (remember you need 200 faction points to join a faction). Thealot of thestory behind Star Wars is about conflict between the Empire and the Rebels trying to fight them. Kinda hard to make truely "neutral" content for the whole game and it really wouldn't be a"Star Wars" game if they did. It just wouldn't be a "Star Wars" game if they tried or at least not a good one.
I do understand why people don't agree with this. I don't agree with them and think they are making this out to be more of a problem then it will turn out to be but I can see how/why they feel that way. Life will teach you thatthere are 3 sides to every arguement. Your side, their side and the truth. If you refuse to see the other's sides reasoning and make compromises (even if the compromise negatively affects you) for the "greater good" then your just dumb. The problems in the middle eastis are a perfect example. Sorry had to give the wisdom lesson for the next part.
One of the biggest reasons people say they don't PvP is because there is no point in it. Alot of the things that were supposed to be in the game never made it in or are broke. Since the dev's have been obessed with jedi for so long to the point of negecting everything else for the most part this hasn't changed. Personally I hope this whole "PvP to get the Master Box" thing is a sign that they are starting to think of ways to get the GCW going with goals and rewards worth fighting for.I think it's what the game needs to do if it's to pull itself out of the hole the dev's have been digging since it was launched. The only real big thing to work for/accomplish right now is to become a Jedi. If the game continues like that it will have no future.
I'm not saying they should make PvPing regularly more of a requirement for everyone. Not everyone in the Star Wars universe was actively fighting for the Empire or Rebellion but the conflict affected their lives in different ways regardless. Every army needs a huge number of "support" personel to function for example which don't fight.
What you get in the Master Pilot box isn't really all that much more then what you get with just 4444. I know some have said it is and if you only compare the hard numbers then they might have a point but PvP fighting is more then just "numbers". To give you a example I'll give a condensed version of my PvP experience.
I got to the point where the only options I could see was to start PvPing or quit the game from lack of content. I wanted to wait until jtls came out so I started PvPing. I never had PvPed before in any of the online games I've played and I had no interest to start but I thought I'd try it before quiting. Imperials were outnumbered on my server so I found a Imp guild to join and went Imperial. I decided not to change my basic template (Pistoleer/Smuggler) since I'd had it from the beginning of the game and didn't want to change. This put me at a severe disadvantage since that's generally considered a gimpy PvP template. So I started outnumbered and gimped with no PvP experience. It was hard and we had to learn to fight better then average rebels to offset the numeric advantage. It's been about 10 months since then but I've/we've acomplished goals I never thought I'd see. Imperials are now the dominate PvP faction on our server and the one huge rebel guild that seemed to big and powerful to ever beat into submission has been just that.
I know, from how I felt about PvP at first, why alot of you are opposed or feel negatively towards PvP in general. I've gone from being very outnumbered with what seemed like very little chance of ever not being to being (both sides agree) the dominate faction. So I know for a fact a person who is 4444 in Pilot skill can beat a master pilot. PvP in space will be alot more balanced then the ground PvP ever was. No uber DOT weapons or lame CM's throwing poisons and so on. Not only that but the penalties for dieing are very very small. You don't need buffs or food. You don't need expensive weapons and armor that loses condition way to fast (to make a pistoleer template effective it cost me about 15-20 mill minimum plus millions more replace worn out stuff). A ship won't nearly be as much and it costs so little to repair after it's destroyed that maintance isn't even a issue in comparison.
Even if you don't agree with what I've said (which is your right) try to relax because it won't be as bad as you think it will be. First it sounds like most of you are either rebel or imperial which means you have a 50/50 chance of being part of the dominate faction on your server.What my experiences on my server have shown me is that if your faction doesn't have a clear advantage over it's counterpartalot of people won't fight. I used to have fun when I was outnumbered because it was a challenge but alot of people won't even attempt to fight if they don't think it won't be easy.
So right there you have a 50/50 chance of it being easy to avoid PvP while your out there since your enemy will most likely be fighting for their lives at the time. Also try to go at times of the day when their are fewer people playing. I don't have that much experience yetto know other more specific tips.
Also the people who tend to "gank" and "grief" people are the sametypes who picked CM as part of their template. That basically means they are immature and picked the easiest/overpowered profession that requires no skill useto kill people with so they can feel they are so Uber. The space combat so far seems to require more skill then that so it won't attract as many of those kinds of people.
At the very least try to calm down until it actually becomes the "huge problem" you think it will be. Just because there was a indiction it could be one from playing the beta isn't really proof it will be now is game dynamics are alot different on a regular server then it is on a server where everyones is playing for the sole purpose to try out space combat. Personally I think it won't be hard enough to accomplish what it seems that they are trying to do (I can hear the flames now). Seriously I don't see it becomming much more of a issue for people then being scanned overt by NPC's or getting a TEF and killed because you healed/traded with a overt person unknowingly ect have been. Certainly not "game breaking". We'll see pretty soon either way.
This was alot more then I wanted to type but hopefully it makes people think about it and at least wait until it "breaks" the game before they say it's already a "game breaking" issue. I've tried to give people stuff to think about and examples of other things that "forced" them into PvP but didn't break the game but just incase I wasted my time then answer the following question. Maybe trying to answer it will do more to make people see the other side of it then everything else combined did.
If the Dev's actually did something to make PvP have purpose or give people incentive to PvP in some way as people have asked for for a long time then the same arguement could just be applied to that. Since it would be some kind of content that people would have toconsider of highvalue. Would you then say that they were "forcing" you to PvP if it was something you valued enough to want.
Can you see the flaw with the basic concept of that arguement? They couldn't add anything of value/content to the GCW because if you wanted to experience it you'd be "forced" into PvP.
I'm sorry I rambled on alittle more then normal since I'm tired. It's all relevant to the topic so I'm not going to bother fixing it. Personally I like the idea about making the neutral pilots somehow exempt from any potential PvP situation. Make it so the ones that can hold multiple people requires those people to be neutral to board it or something. Basically something that allows someone a possible way around the PvP thing butalso has drawbacksso it's not used by people because they are justlazy.
That last idea actually sounded like a good compromise that would be easy to put into the game I'd think. Gives both sides basically what they want and doesn't require a future "space combat rebalnce" to do it lol.
Hettar
Banshe wrote:
Well felinae posted this in her thread and its in my manual as well, didnt get to go home and test it, but according to the instruction manual that came with the game, the master missions are not in Kessel any more...
page 23: section Gaining Prestige Points
Once you have MASTERED YOUR CHOSEN PROFESSION (meaning that you have all of the skill boxes associated with the profession) you will start earning prestige points. There are Rebel, Imperial and Privateer Prestige points.
These Prestige Points can be exchanged to access high-end player-versus-player areas, including the unknown regions of Deep Space and the spice mine system of KESSEL.
someone go try to enter Kessel without master lol, I am stuck at work for another 3 and a half hours so I cant.
Outdated manual.
It was probably printed a month or two before beta ended.
Vicotnik wrote:
Actually, it is "your side" that lacks the capability of seeing the whole picture. If you didn't, you would be able to look at this with objective eyes and not see things for your point of view. I'm still waiting for that one reason, that one justification for these missions. No one has come up with a plausible reason yet.
I have been seeing this from both sides, and have posted it many times. You see i look at this logicly, where you are looking at this emotionaly. I see how it is from both sides and you only think how it effects you. I have posted examples of how you have no clue what the other side is thinking, and all you do is say that no one has come up with a plausible reason. Well i have gien many plausible reasons why master pilot is in a pvp area, but you still dont want to listen so lest go back over what we are talking about.
1.Many here aresaying that there being forced into an area of the game to get the master title.
Well No your not being forced. You have the choice to go or not. Its that simple butsomethingtells me that many ppl here still want to be a master pilot so they will still complain.
2. Many here are claiming they will have to fight in Unconcentual pvp fighting.
Well this is not true since you still have to agree to the fact that it is a pvp area you will be entering into, and you cant go in unless you agree to it.
3. Many say that the enemy is going to be in the pvp area just to grief ppl that are going in to get there master title.
How do you know the enemy is just out to grief ppl coming in to get there master title? No one knows. The enemy that happened on by and started to attack might have been lost and desided to have fun in the intended pvp zone(no griefing, just doing what the zone was ment for, fighting the battle aganst good and evil). Yes there is a chance of griefing, but no one will know if it will happen, and not everyone in a pvp area is out to grief. And the situation could be turned around to, where the group your with desided to attack a small group of the enemy and the ppl from that group claims that you where griefing(you see many ppl still dont know the true meaning of what griefing is). Being in a pvp zone is like being anywhere else in the game, its just the enemy does things a little more randomly.
Again, Greifing is only where a spacific person(s) singles out a person(s) and constantly does everything in there power to stop everything there victom is doing. as in kill stealing, calling names, always walking if front of them, and killing the victom many times for no reason.
But its NOT griefing if your in a zone where you do battle with an enemy where the enemy will randomly do there job of destroying there enemy.
4. You claim that when you get to the master pilot you will get to unlock new content.
But you didnt list off what the new content was, but we already know that its a pvp zone where ppl can go do some loot farming.
So again why is it so darn important you have to have a master pilot title other than to have the best top of the line ships and parts, where all your going to do with them is mostly do is combat and to go to the new content area which is a pvp zone.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 10-29-2004 09:36 AM
So again why is it so darn important you have to have a master pilot title other than to have the best top of the line ships and parts, where all your going to do with them is mostly do is combat and to go to the new content area which is a pvp zone.
For me personally it wouldnt be imprortant if I would be an Imperial or rebel char. But I play a neutral smuggler and I want a YT-1300 FRIGHTER. Why do I have to go into a PvP zone and most likely forced (as I dont want it, so I am forced) PvP? A possible solution would be to move the YT-1300 down to maybe 4xxx or to move the mission out of Kessel. Sure this is from my view. But up to know it was always said, if you dont want to PvP go neutral and you will never have to PvP, except you accept a duel!
Lumpi667 wrote:
So again why is it so darn important you have to have a master pilot title other than to have the best top of the line ships and parts, where all your going to do with them is mostly do is combat and to go to the new content area which is a pvp zone.
For me personally it wouldnt be imprortant if I would be an Imperial or rebel char. But I play a neutral smuggler and I want a YT-1300 FRIGHTER. Why do I have to go into a PvP zone and most likely forced (as I dont want it, so I am forced) PvP? A possible solution would be to move the YT-1300 down to maybe 4xxx or to move the mission out of Kessel. Sure this is from my view. But up to know it was always said, if you dont want to PvP go neutral and you will never have to PvP, except you accept a duel!
The mutiplayer shipsshould belowered to 4-0-0-0 so that ppl that want them can have them without being a master. And since mostppl that are neutral and dont like combat only became a pilot to fly the yt1300 can(or any other multiplayer ship depending on there faction). the ship will fly kinda slow and not have thetop of the line gear, but it will let ppl have the multipassenger ships they want.There is enough high lvl combat ships that can fill the master box for the ppl that do like the combat and pvp action. But keeping the master mission in a pvp zone is a devs way of saying this is it your going to be the best of the best and your going to have to try and be the best pilot to earn the master pilot box.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 10-29-2004 09:30 AM
HettarII wrote:
TheRealXur wrote:
Dolgan wrote:
Slarus, you dont seem to grasp it at all. PvP is NOT required to play the game. They have not misguided anyone. IFYOU CHOOSETO GO FOR MASTER WHICH IS A CHOICE NOT A FRIGGIN LAW! Then you have to abide by the rules in the game i.e PVP. You bleat on about it all you want, and make irrelevant analogys all you like, but thats how the game is now. Like it or lump it. It's your choice.
p.s maybe you need to keep that dictionary. It's drivers, not driers.
Yeah, PvP is not required if you don't want to play the game, yeah.
Hell, a CD-KEY isn't required if you don't want to play.
Breathing isn't "required" if you don't want to live either.
People bought the game to play it, that means all of it, not just part of it. This argument will never end because the PvP people and the non PvP people will never get along on this issue. The entire point of these threeds are to let SOE know the non-PvP people do not enjoy this mission in the game they paid for and would like a secondary option.
It is a completely valid point and we are entitled to our opinion. Everyone comming in here fighting about it only seeks to make both sides look bad in the end. Maybe you enjoy PvP, maybe you consider it a good challenge, I do not. I bought this game because PvP was said to be consensual, and except for a few minor issues the ground game pretty much is. You can play every aspect of the game until you get bored with it and possibly choose to PvP.
Space breaks this. They played it off like the ground game dynamic still existed, it does not. You can no longer enjoy the FULL game unless you "choose" to open yourself to PvP. This is the point people are argueing and IT IS TRUE. You cannot deny the ground game allows you to do EVERYTHING as a neutral and never engage in PvP where JTL does NOT. That is a fact.
At the very minumum neutral pilots should be exempt from this mission, period. They don't have to PvP on the ground, they should NOT be forced to PvP in space. Now, factional stuff, I personally couldn't care less if as a rebel I would be open to PvP at the start of Teir 2. That would make sense and work along with the game. But the path for non pvp people would still be there.
There should be a non pvp path to keep consistant with the ground game.
This statement is wrong. This person was alot closer to making a valid point then most if not all of the other people but there are a few things you can't do without a possibility of PvP. Most notable are the faction theme parks. There are proably more but those are the obvious ones.
Other things in the game that "force" you into possible PvP situations are numerous but don't affect his argument since he specified playing as a Neutral character. Since others have said they shouldn't be "forced" into PvPing I'll list them off but it's not direct towards the person I quoted since he seems to have actually thought about what he was saying before he said it.
You can not join a faction without being "forced" into PvPing since you need a minimum of 200 faction point to join. You can't fully progress through the Jedi profession without being "forced" into PvP. If you don't consider the 200 faction points as really a big issue since it doesn't put you in harms way for very long your forgeting that EVERYONE who chose to be a rebel has the potenial of being "forced" into PvP everyday from NPC's scanning them. As mentioned the faction theme parks and 2 of the 3 different parts of the corvette "force" you into possible PvP if you want to experience them. The past monthly "events" forced you into PvP if you wanted to participate.
I'm sure there are more but these are the most obvious examples. I didn't even have to really think about it to come up with quite a few examples of where the game "forces" you into PvP to fully experience everything that'spossible. This game doesn't have alot of content sojust those examples make up a significant percentage of total content in the game. I'm not sure what all these people have been doing to have missed so many examples since day one because they are talking like this is something new and not done before.
People need to remember that this is a "Star Wars" game. If you think about it you'll see that the dev's really can't make "everything" in the game without "forcing" you into a PvP situation at some point (remember you need 200 faction points to join a faction). Thealot of thestory behind Star Wars is about conflict between the Empire and the Rebels trying to fight them. Kinda hard to make truely "neutral" content for the whole game and it really wouldn't be a"Star Wars" game if they did. It just wouldn't be a "Star Wars" game if they tried or at least not a good one.
I do understand why people don't agree with this. I don't agree with them and think they are making this out to be more of a problem then it will turn out to be but I can see how/why they feel that way. Life will teach you thatthere are 3 sides to every arguement. Your side, their side and the truth. If you refuse to see the other's sides reasoning and make compromises (even if the compromise negatively affects you) for the "greater good" then your just dumb. The problems in the middle eastis are a perfect example. Sorry had to give the wisdom lesson for the next part.
One of the biggest reasons people say they don't PvP is because there is no point in it. Alot of the things that were supposed to be in the game never made it in or are broke. Since the dev's have been obessed with jedi for so long to the point of negecting everything else for the most part this hasn't changed. Personally I hope this whole "PvP to get the Master Box" thing is a sign that they are starting to think of ways to get the GCW going with goals and rewards worth fighting for.I think it's what the game needs to do if it's to pull itself out of the hole the dev's have been digging since it was launched. The only real big thing to work for/accomplish right now is to become a Jedi. If the game continues like that it will have no future.
I'm not saying they should make PvPing regularly more of a requirement for everyone. Not everyone in the Star Wars universe was actively fighting for the Empire or Rebellion but the conflict affected their lives in different ways regardless. Every army needs a huge number of "support" personel to function for example which don't fight.
What you get in the Master Pilot box isn't really all that much more then what you get with just 4444. I know some have said it is and if you only compare the hard numbers then they might have a point but PvP fighting is more then just "numbers". To give you a example I'll give a condensed version of my PvP experience.
I got to the point where the only options I could see was to start PvPing or quit the game from lack of content. I wanted to wait until jtls came out so I started PvPing. I never had PvPed before in any of the online games I've played and I had no interest to start but I thought I'd try it before quiting. Imperials were outnumbered on my server so I found a Imp guild to join and went Imperial. I decided not to change my basic template (Pistoleer/Smuggler) since I'd had it from the beginning of the game and didn't want to change. This put me at a severe disadvantage since that's generally considered a gimpy PvP template. So I started outnumbered and gimped with no PvP experience. It was hard and we had to learn to fight better then average rebels to offset the numeric advantage. It's been about 10 months since then but I've/we've acomplished goals I never thought I'd see. Imperials are now the dominate PvP faction on our server and the one huge rebel guild that seemed to big and powerful to ever beat into submission has been just that.
I know, from how I felt about PvP at first, why alot of you are opposed or feel negatively towards PvP in general. I've gone from being very outnumbered with what seemed like very little chance of ever not being to being (both sides agree) the dominate faction. So I know for a fact a person who is 4444 in Pilot skill can beat a master pilot. PvP in space will be alot more balanced then the ground PvP ever was. No uber DOT weapons or lame CM's throwing poisons and so on. Not only that but the penalties for dieing are very very small. You don't need buffs or food. You don't need expensive weapons and armor that loses condition way to fast (to make a pistoleer template effective it cost me about 15-20 mill minimum plus millions more replace worn out stuff). A ship won't nearly be as much and it costs so little to repair after it's destroyed that maintance isn't even a issue in comparison.
Even if you don't agree with what I've said (which is your right) try to relax because it won't be as bad as you think it will be. First it sounds like most of you are either rebel or imperial which means you have a 50/50 chance of being part of the dominate faction on your server.What my experiences on my server have shown me is that if your faction doesn't have a clear advantage over it's counterpartalot of people won't fight. I used to have fun when I was outnumbered because it was a challenge but alot of people won't even attempt to fight if they don't think it won't be easy.
So right there you have a 50/50 chance of it being easy to avoid PvP while your out there since your enemy will most likely be fighting for their lives at the time. Also try to go at times of the day when their are fewer people playing. I don't have that much experience yetto know other more specific tips.
Also the people who tend to "gank" and "grief" people are the sametypes who picked CM as part of their template. That basically means they are immature and picked the easiest/overpowered profession that requires no skill useto kill people with so they can feel they are so Uber. The space combat so far seems to require more skill then that so it won't attract as many of those kinds of people.
At the very least try to calm down until it actually becomes the "huge problem" you think it will be. Just because there was a indiction it could be one from playing the beta isn't really proof it will be now is game dynamics are alot different on a regular server then it is on a server where everyones is playing for the sole purpose to try out space combat. Personally I think it won't be hard enough to accomplish what it seems that they are trying to do (I can hear the flames now). Seriously I don't see it becomming much more of a issue for people then being scanned overt by NPC's or getting a TEF and killed because you healed/traded with a overt person unknowingly ect have been. Certainly not "game breaking". We'll see pretty soon either way.
This was alot more then I wanted to type but hopefully it makes people think about it and at least wait until it "breaks" the game before they say it's already a "game breaking" issue. I've tried to give people stuff to think about and examples of other things that "forced" them into PvP but didn't break the game but just incase I wasted my time then answer the following question. Maybe trying to answer it will do more to make people see the other side of it then everything else combined did.
If the Dev's actually did something to make PvP have purpose or give people incentive to PvP in some way as people have asked for for a long time then the same arguement could just be applied to that. Since it would be some kind of content that people would have toconsider of highvalue. Would you then say that they were "forcing" you to PvP if it was something you valued enough to want.
Can you see the flaw with the basic concept of that arguement? They couldn't add anything of value/content to the GCW because if you wanted to experience it you'd be "forced" into PvP.
I'm sorry I rambled on alittle more then normal since I'm tired. It's all relevant to the topic so I'm not going to bother fixing it. Personally I like the idea about making the neutral pilots somehow exempt from any potential PvP situation. Make it so the ones that can hold multiple people requires those people to be neutral to board it or something. Basically something that allows someone a possible way around the PvP thing butalso has drawbacksso it's not used by people because they are justlazy.
That last idea actually sounded like a good compromise that would be easy to put into the game I'd think. Gives both sides basically what they want and doesn't require a future "space combat rebalnce" to do it lol.
Hettar